The choice

@imagesofcanada

One stormy day last week this blog said getting the virus jab was a moral, ethical imperative for every citizen. Part of the social contract. The only doorway out of this economic and social mess. Responsible people therefore do not have a choice. You wince and take it.

Predictably, a bunch of readers huffed off to Zerohedge, calling me a candyass libtard eunuch. Some of them also think Trump won, Covid’s just the flu and Rudy Giuliani didn’t melt. They are angry people destined to stay that way. As I wrote recently, the first step in dealing with the stress this pathogen has created is to stop blaming others – public health officers, governments, pharma, politicians or China. Let’s talk instead of getting out of the hole.

Many came here to argue that they’ll wait to take the vax until others – like old people – are used as guinea pigs to prove it is safe. Not only did I label this cowardice, but said nobody would ride herd immunity for free. Proof of vaccination as 2021 rolls out will be required for everything from getting on an airplane to watching the Maple Leafs lose again to keeping your job.

That last point – employment – is consequential. Any anti-vaxers or hesitators should understand the law and what’s coming. Most people don’t quite yet. For example, recent polls found 55% of NYC firefighters don’t want to be vaxed, thinking they can avoid it. Only 42% of African Americans trust the vaccine. The overall rate for the US is 62%. In Canada it appears to be 64%.

The anti-vax movement has been fueled by politics, the same live-free-or-die machismo than made some folks resist masks and exaggerates potential harm or side effects. A video of a nurse fainting after taking the serum late last week was seized upon by the Luddites. But it soon emerged she had a condition that often causes a swoon. More Internet junk – the kind that made 75 million Americans think Joe Biden stole an election. We live in a dangerous time, clearly.

Well, here’s the point of this post: for most people there will be no choice between vaccination and employment.

On Friday Americans gained insight into this as the US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission published its guidance on Covid, employer rights, employee obligations, the vaccine and labour law. You can read it all here.

The conclusion was clear: requiring that an employee be vaxed against Covid does not constitute a medical intrusion or a personal rights violation (as would a mandatory blood test or breathe analysis, for example). Therefore it’s a legal request. In fact, even if an employee refuses vaccination for medical or religious reasons, they can still be terminated. See this…

K.7. What happens if an employer cannot exempt or provide a reasonable accommodation to an employee who cannot comply with a mandatory vaccine policy because of a disability or sincerely held religious practice or belief? (12/16/20)

If an employee cannot get vaccinated for COVID-19 because of a disability or sincerely held religious belief, practice, or observance, and there is no reasonable accommodation possible, then it would be lawful for the employer to exclude the employee from the workplace.

It’s reasonable to assume Canadian guidance will be the same. But already employment lawyers here have come to the conclusion that (as this blog spelled out) employers cannot be forced to shoulder the liability for allowing non-vaxed workers into the workplace. Instead, bosses have an overriding responsibility to protect people. The wussiness of a few cannot abrogate the security of the many.

Says Ryan Watkins, of Whitten & Lublin Employment Lawyers: “With a highly contagious virus that has caused a global pandemic, if there’s an antidote, employers are within their rights to require employees to take it to keep the rest of the workforce safe.” In fact, employees who refuse the jab can be dismissed without cause, especially in jobs where they interact with the public – like working in a store, restaurant, supermarket, seniors’ home or hair salon.

What if a worker here claims they cannot be vaxed for religious or medical reason? Lawyer Howard Levitt (Levitt Sheikh Chaudhri Swann Employment & Labour Law) says too bad. Employers have the law on their side since they are obligated to operate workplaces that are safe and compliant with the necessary standard of care. There is no question the courts will make a refusal to be vaccinated a cause for discharge. In fact Ontario has a law spelling out a $10-million fine for Covid-19 carelessness by employers. “Any one of these negligence actions for death, and maybe proximate deaths of family members who then end up dying or getting permanently immunocompromised, can bankrupt a lot of Canadian companies,” he says.

By the way, don’t expect to find this information on an alt-right blog. They’d rather lie, and keep you clicking. What a world we have wrought.

309 comments ↓

#1 SOMETHINGS UP! on 12.20.20 at 11:37 am

Well looks like i’ll never fly, watch the Maple Leafs or work ever again…….PERFECT!!!

#2 Ross G on 12.20.20 at 12:04 pm

The latest article by CONSENT FACTORY INC may help us understand what is happening right now. It is sort of satire but not really. I dont know how to link. I think its worth reading. Peace.

#3 RBull on 12.20.20 at 12:05 pm

Great message Garth.

We need to keep spreading valid, accurate rationale (and dispel the myths) for everyone to do their part in keeping with Covid, including getting vaccinated. Lets maximize our safety and get our economy and lives back to normal quickly.

#4 Ponzius Pilatus on 12.20.20 at 12:07 pm

What is Zerohedge?

#5 Flop... on 12.20.20 at 12:08 pm

Was thinking the other day the last time I had a vaccine.

Probably around 18 years ago…….I think the vaccination card is under the bed in shoebox where men keep everything valuable.

I was traveling around the world had a trip planned to South America for six months.

Went to a travel clinic in Vancouver and got a yellow fever shot and probably a few others.

Didn’t even end up going…

M46BC

#6 Yukon Elvis on 12.20.20 at 12:09 pm

I see a lot of Supreme Court battles on the horizon on both sides of the border. It won’t be over until The Supremes rule on it.

#7 Tarot Card on 12.20.20 at 12:09 pm

Thanks For the Blog Garth

Well said!

What has happened to the Canadian people ?
Why are we so angry?

Everyone take a deep breath and say thank you for everything you have, health and happiness.

Cheers

#8 Eco Capitalist on 12.20.20 at 12:11 pm

I await the results of the Charter challenges that would no doubt follow such a law; they should make for interesting reading.

No employer will be forced to retain unvaccinated workers. Get a grip. – Garth

#9 Joseph R. on 12.20.20 at 12:12 pm

“In fact, employees who refuse the jab can be dismissed without cause, especially in jobs where they interact with the public – like working in a store, restaurant, supermarket, seniors’ home or hair salon.”

——————————————————–

Looks more like dismal WITH causes, as a safety violation. A written note is given to the employee and the employee refused to change his/her behaviour.

You won’t be able to get severance pay and/or EI.

“By the way, don’t expect to find this information on an alt-right blog”

They vilify anyone who questions a job creator as a socialist-communist who wants to turn the country into Venezuela.

As such, they will accept it as a “free market” decision. Right?

#10 Justin T. on 12.20.20 at 12:16 pm

DELETED

#11 Linda on 12.20.20 at 12:23 pm

Interesting post as always. Question regarding the vaccine vs. employment rules – since WFH has been shown to be viable for some types of work, would it be possible that employers could permit employees to WFH if they could not take the vaccine for health related reasons? It would be unfortunate if the rules allowed employers a loophole to rid themselves of employees who develop expensive health care issues. Right now they can’t dismiss them, but if they ‘have’ to be vaccinated & ‘can’ be dismissed for not vaccinating, seems like a loophole is available.

#12 Justin T on 12.20.20 at 12:24 pm

You will do what you are told. You will not ask questions. You will believe whatever they tell you to believe. You will believe it, not because it makes any sense, but simply because you have been ordered to believe it. They aren’t trying to trick or deceive anybody. They know their lies don’t make any sense. And they know that you know they don’t make any sense. They want you to know it. That is the point. They want you to know they are lying to you, manipulating you, openly mocking you, and that they can say and do anything they want to you, and you will go along with it, no matter how insane.

If they order you to take a vaccine, you will not ask what is in the vaccine, or start whining about the “potential side effects.” You will shut up and take the vaccine.

Right Garth? How much were you paid for this message?

You can wear a mask the rest of your life, or grow up. – Garth

#13 Doug t on 12.20.20 at 12:29 pm

All this Craziness keeps life spicey – things were pretty boring before all this – kinda like the movie Groundhog Day – now its more like Escape From New York

#14 50 YEARS OF MAPLE LEAF INCOMPETENCE! on 12.20.20 at 12:30 pm

“Proof of vaccination as 2021 rolls out will be required for everything from getting on an airplane to watching the Maple Leafs lose again to keeping your job.”

But wait Garth, there’s more! This gets even better!

The Make Believes might not even get to inflict their incompetence on Toronturds at all this season!

They might be banned, to the USA!

WOoooooooooooOOOHOOOOoooooOOOOO!!!

https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/30544077/sources-canadian-based-nhl-teams-play-united-states-due-issues-canadian-health-authorities

Just imagine – a new version of Toronthole might emerge, unburdened by such institutional moneygrubbing nitwits as those running MLSE and all their sycophantic fanslaves!

The murder rate might drop! (Ok, maybe just a little)

Car crashes caused by narcissistic douchebag GTAHoles might decline!

The Realtor population might drop to an environmentally sustainable level, as the 416 Delusion Syndrome dissipates!

GO LEAFS GO!!

(To the USA, eh!!!!!!!!)

#15 Doug t on 12.20.20 at 12:31 pm

Work? Nah – UBI – government won’t let you starve

#16 Jimpoff on 12.20.20 at 12:31 pm

Ivermectin got the Nobel prize in 2015. Billions of people globally in 3rd world countries take it every year, for decades.

Super safe, super cheap, ever wonder why Africa and India don’t have the same relative covid cases we do?

The world’s leader on Ivermectin and covid:

https://youtu.be/Tq8SXOBy-4w

#17 The Woosh on 12.20.20 at 12:39 pm

Win. Win. I foresee lots of new job opportunities out there. Excellent news for folks who are willing to look out for their neighbour’s good health!

#18 TurnerNation on 12.20.20 at 12:39 pm

This Christmas Kanadians will be flooding our First Responders with calls on CV crimes. Ensuring they have not a moment of rest and are strained to the max when real calls come in. Great strategy guys.
Our global rulers must be roaring with laughter. We destroyed the Old System and culture and traditions. Christmas is cancelled. They’ve turned us against each other. WW3. They didn’t cancel the other holidays. Only this one. Wonder why.

…..

Control over our Feeding, Breeding and Travel/movements.

1. Keep an eye on your food supply. Mink today. Cattle and fish tomorrow?

https://www.undercurrentnews.com/2020/12/17/mowi-will-take-12000t-hit-from-canadas-move-to-phase-out-farming-on-bc-islands/

The world’s largest salmon farmer Mowi is the worst hit by the Canadian government’s decision to phase out salmon farming in the Discovery Islands of British Columbia….
The Norwegian giant said that the government decision will affect 30%, or approximately 10,000-12,000 metric tons (gross weight tonnage), of Mowi’s total average annual harvest volumes in British Columbia from 2022. Mowi’s 2021 harvest volumes will n…

Of the 19 farms in the Discovery Islands, nine are fallowed, the DFO said, without specifying which. The First Nations groups called for the farms to be closed in September, over concerns about the spread of sea lice and pathogens to native salmon.
Also, Jordan stipulated no new fish of any size may be introduced into Discovery Islands facilities during this time. All farms must be free of fish by June 30, 2022, but existing fish at the sites can complete their growth-cycle and be harvested.

…..

2. How long will this last? Until the global goals are acheived (Now we know why they sold us so hard last year in the ‘news’ on the Ghost Kitchens. Restaurants and gatherings are banned. Work only, Comrade.)
Can you be more specific?
Yes – seen elsewhere, From April 2020 the IMF plan. Page 6. Financial aid is planned until March 2025!

Yep this is the New System rolled out overnight in March. As per this document the countries affected are: “World”. Do you really need more evidence?

http://documents1.worldbank.org/curated/en/993371585947965984/pdf/World-COVID-19-Strategic-Preparedness-and-Response-Project.pdf

Country(ies)
World

Project Name
COVID-19 Strategic Preparedness and Response Program (SPRP)

Expected Project Approval
Date
02-Apr-2020

Expected Project Closing
Date
31-Mar-2025

#19 Ustabe on 12.20.20 at 12:42 pm

Anyone besides me find it odd that the component of society that holds the belief that Covid only has a 1% death rate “so let it rip” also makes up a huge portion of the “this vaccine is only 95% effective” crowd?

I understand that Johnson & Johnson is coming out soon with their No More Tears version of the Covid vax just for this demographic.

#20 Paddy on 12.20.20 at 12:44 pm

Didn’t realize they dress up Capilano suspension bridge like that at Christmas….looks magical…lucky pup!

#21 Dole Vita on 12.20.20 at 12:45 pm

Garth.

You can’t reason with fanatics.

I admire you for trying though.

As for ZeroHedge they are the den for:

Quisque amat conspiratio.

—————————

I commented a week or so ago about a virus variant in SE England and said not to panic. Well, this AM I woke up to an EU MSM having a kanipshit about it. The Netherlands and Belgium have stopped all travel to the UK (as have others in the past few hours here in the EU).

The one that worried me the most, especially for Canada, was this one from La Repubblica:

“English variant of the virus, Italy blocks flights with Great Britain until 6 January. WHO: “The variant is already in Denmark, the Netherlands and Australia”

https://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2020/12/20/news/coronavirus_nel_mondo_contagi_aggiornamenti_e_tutte_le_news_sulla_situazione-279123099/?ref=RHTP-BH-I278887413-P1-S4-T1

If it made its way all the way to Oz, it will find a way to Canada. Tweeted Hajdu, Tam and Trudeau this morning urging them to block travel from there.

Other country reactions about this variant below. Worrisome as there are 2 changes to the spike protein of the virus that may render current vaccines less effective, still nothing from the medical people here in the EU…speculation so far? Overboard “in the abundance of caution” department? Who knows.

Belgium
https://www.hln.be/buitenland/belgie-bant-vliegtuigen-en-treinen-uit-verenigd-koninkrijk-voorzorgsmaatregel-tegen-nieuwe-virusvariant~a49c9097/

The Netherlands
https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/1851988538/kabinet-britse-variant-coronavirus-ook-in-nederland

Germans say it is not there yet odd with The Netherlands and Belgium on their border. Just found out they are closing travel to the UK as well:

https://www.dw.com/en/top-stories/s-9097

Oddly this morning the Swedes unconcerned but about something else about Covid Neanderthals (not the ones you wrote about today Garth):

https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/dlJyGq/gen-fran-neandertalare-kan-orsaka-svar-covid

———————————-

Yup. Just another COVID-19 day on Planet Earth

PS:

If it is true about the variant, well all the more reason to practice S. L. Pathogen avoidance and GET VACCINATED.

-FWIW

#22 I'm poor on 12.20.20 at 12:52 pm

“The choice”

Is it better to be poor in Ontario or Alberta?

#23 Hamish43 on 12.20.20 at 12:54 pm

Problems-
1. Pregnant or likely to be pregnant women advised not to take the Pfizer vaccine
2.Young people don’t need to take it since their risk is so low
3. Vaccine does not make you not infectious, so what is the point of the rule
4. Those with allergic reactions may well not be able to take the vaccine
So I don’t see this happening, too discriminatory against too many groups.

#24 KnowtheLaw on 12.20.20 at 1:00 pm

Bill of Rights has Constitutional status in Canada and ultimately provides for the right to refuse consent to any proposed treatment by the individual. Everyone who visits a doctor knows this. It also prohibits forced medical procedures and medical experimentation.

Canada is a Constitutional Monarcy, the Monarch swears a Coronation Oath from the Coronation Oath Act (1688), that applies also to Canada in which ultimately makes it impossible for any foreign actor to impose upon or change the constitution or common law.

“I doe declare That noe Forreigne Prince Person Prelate, State or Potentate hath or ought to have any Jurisdiction Power Superiority Preeminence or Authoritie Ecclesiasticall or Spirituall within this Realme Soe helpe me God.”

Together, the choice is clear in favour of the individual.

You have no constitutional right to make the workplace unsafe. You lose. – Garth

#25 Dolce Vita on 12.20.20 at 1:07 pm

PS, PS:

If you want to understand what the worry is about the new virus variant, UK’s Doc Campbell has an update about it as of 18 min ago on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MINIibH2Iaw

He says it has not spread but the WHO says it already has to Denmark, The Netherlands and Australia.

Why EU countries falling over each other closing travel with the UK. Too fast even for even me to keep up with it all.

————————-

I would not be travelling to the UK if I were any of you.

#26 Theyounggreek on 12.20.20 at 1:10 pm

Sorry Garth but this makes no sense. The vaccine doesn’t stop you from getting the virus. They don’t know whether it stops you from transmitting the virus but you’re going to force people to take it. A healthy 20 year old has a minuscule chance of having a negative outcome. Why vaccinate young healthy people? Makes no sense. Vaccinate the old and vulnerable, then open up the economy. Let the virus rip through the younger population. This will allow young healthy people develop antibodies the natural way. In the mean time continue vaccinating anyone who wants a vaccine and we’ll be at herd immunity by summer.

#27 Stonewalker on 12.20.20 at 1:13 pm

DELETED

#28 mark on 12.20.20 at 1:20 pm

I guess their will be a lot of people looking for other jobs.
This is not even bullshit, its horseshit. We will see how economy runs with millions collecting welfare instead of working………….so be it.

Hard to know what’s worse. Cowardice or stupidity. – Garth

#29 SoggyShorts on 12.20.20 at 1:20 pm

#26 Theyounggreek on 12.20.20 at 1:10 pm
Vaccinate the old and vulnerable, then open up the economy. Let the virus rip through the younger population. This will allow young healthy people develop antibodies the natural way.
*******************
Terrible idea.
Read up on the known side effects that can come with getting Covid the “natural way”.
And yes, even for “young&healthy” people they can be severe and permanent.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351

It’s bizarre that anti-vaxxers worry so much about possible vaccine side effects but continue to ignore the known side effects of Covid as well as the possible unknown ones.

#30 Apocalypse2020 on 12.20.20 at 1:21 pm

COVID VARIANT EMERGES AND STRENGTHENS

“….out of control…”

“…spreading more rapidly…”

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/20/uk/uk-coronavirus-variant-intl-gbr/index.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-55382212

You thought 2020 was bad?

PREPARE

#31 Stonewaller on 12.20.20 at 1:25 pm

Theyounggreek
You just hit the nail on the head brother. There’s way too many unanswered questions about this, and too many uninformed people not asking questions. Hope my comments get approved. I’ve learned almost as much from the comment section, discussing topics and reading linked articles, as I have reading the blog

#32 Pandemic my ass on 12.20.20 at 1:26 pm

DELETED

#33 TurnerNation on 12.20.20 at 1:27 pm

#14 50 YEARS OF MAPLE LEAF INCOMPETENCE! on 12.20.20 at 12:30 pm

There you have it. Yet another step into this future. All old system and culture – sports etc. – seems to be being destroyed. We’re not even a year into this!

Further update the SKYDOME is to be torn down into Condos. That’s the real reason Blue Jays were banned from the country. WW3 spoils is the LAND.

The business of sports. Remember, the globalists must kill off all national sports and culture.
All cities and nations must come under Globalism.”

#113 TurnerNation on 09.08.20 at 9:17 am
no but the guy making the New System leak/info in late 60’s that soccer would be only permitted sport [In the New System] might be on to something. ..

6 months in and:
– CFL football league is cancelled.
– Toronto Blue Jays baseball team banned from the country.
– NBA player staged a work stoppage
– Record lower TV viewership records for Baseball, Hockey .
…….

Just for fun, straight from the CDC. Summer camp fun:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/global-covid-19/shielding-approach-humanitarian.html

“In theory, shielding may serve its objective to protect high-risk populations from disease and death. However, implementation of the approach necessitates strict adherence1,6,7, to protocol. Inadvertent introduction of the virus into a green zone may result in rapid transmission among the most vulnerable populations the approach is trying to protect.

A summary of the shielding approach described by Favas is shown in Table 1. See Guidance for the prevention of COVID-19 infections among high-risk individuals in low-resource, displaced and camp and camp-like settings 1,2 for full details.”

#34 paul on 12.20.20 at 1:27 pm

Well Israel is good to vaccinate 50,000
people a day population 7,000,000 . Canada received 30,000 doses population 37,000,000.So you won’t need to avoid the jab t0 see.if it’s safe till late spring at best. take a deep breath and wait

#35 crowdedelevatorfartz on 12.20.20 at 1:29 pm

@#4 Ponzies Pruned Plants

Zero hedge is when you cut your hedge down, dig up the roots and burn it.

Glad I could help.

#36 NSNG on 12.20.20 at 1:31 pm

Let’s get a pool going on what the trigger word or news article will be that wakes the sleeping giant.

An alternate would be which article from which MSM news outlet will do it. Plenty of money to be made.

A third would be by which date.

#37 crowdedelevatorfartz on 12.20.20 at 1:33 pm

@#24 No the Law
“Canada is a Constitutional Monarcy, the Monarch swears …

++++

I swear , a lot, does that explain my Constipational Monarcy?

Is there a vaccine for virus carrying , stubborn greaterfools?

#38 Peter Courtney on 12.20.20 at 1:36 pm

Geez Comrade Garth, how it that YOU know thesvaccines are safe oe effective?

#39 Brian on 12.20.20 at 1:44 pm

The unintended consequence will be many folks close to retirement, or just fed up with their jobs, will decline the jab and then demand their entitled severance.
At my corp there is already an issue with succession and not enough new and young employees choosing to work in the industry with thousands on the retirement bubble. A free payout at the employers expense is certain to hasten this.

#40 KnowtheLaw on 12.20.20 at 1:44 pm

You have no constitutional right to make the workplace unsafe. You lose. – Garth

Lose what? I’m confused. Covid is a workplace hazard, that’s all. It does not negate the bill of rights.

If confirmed positive just stay home and get better. Take ivermectin. Go back to work.

#41 Eco Capitalist on 12.20.20 at 2:02 pm

No employer will be forced to retain unvaccinated workers. Get a grip. – Garth

I think you misconstrued my comment. No matter which way the courts ultimately rule, it should make for a fascinating piece of case law (yes, I find law interesting). As a lawyer acquaintance is fond of saying, “lawyers are the price we pay for living in a democratic society”.

#42 Theyounggreek on 12.20.20 at 2:02 pm

#29 SoggyShorts

Not sure where in my post I said that I’m an anti-vaxxer. In fact I will get the vaccine when available for my age group(40-50). As far as permanent side effects of getting antibodies the natural way, I’m sure that it’s a tiny percentage of people compared to those that have zero symptoms and side effects. I just don’t see the value in vaccinating a large part of our population that already has better odds of not having a serious illness than this vaccine can provide.

#43 crowdedelevatorfartz on 12.20.20 at 2:05 pm

@#34 Paul
“So you won’t need to avoid the jab t0 see.if it’s safe till late spring at best. take a deep breath and wait”

++++

No point in explaining the obvious to the antivax crowd….they dont want to hear common sense.

It’ll probably Sept before the majority of Canadians can be jabbed…..long after at least 1 billion other people worldwide have been stuck.

#44 crowdedelevatorfartz on 12.20.20 at 2:09 pm

@#28 easymark

“We will see how economy runs with millions collecting welfare instead of working………….”

+++++

Ummmm, you mean like the 7 million drawing CERB?

#45 Emma Zaun - GreaterFool Unpaid Intern #007 on 12.20.20 at 2:12 pm

Attention: TurnerNation

Your posts here today again confirm you are a priority subject for early COVID vaccination.

*You are now officially in the Red Zone of COVID cognitive effects on mental capacity*

(If this escalates to the Grey Zone further measures will be necessary.)

As directed by Garth:

Remove your pants and underwear.

Bend over.

Follow the direction of the arrows on the floor. Do not go the other way.

Keep yourself masked.

Follow all instructions.

Warm your buttock cheeks against those of Crowdedelevatorfartz if you feel cold. You may tip him a gratuity for any additional warming ventilation he may provide, using e-transfers, no cash exchanges.

Get ready for the jab. And then the second one.

Have a Sane and Safe Merry Christmas!

#46 Canuck on 12.20.20 at 2:14 pm

If you thought 8% unemployment was bad, think what 30-40% unemployment would be. Can you imagine Canadian Tire or Home depot only being open 9-6 Monday to Saturday because they can’t find enough lemmings to get vaccinated for a 17.00 an hour job?

#47 crowdedelevatorfartz on 12.20.20 at 2:17 pm

Yoo Hooo!
Trump supporters .

Thank your sitting President and his endless denials of a “crisis”

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/pfizer-has-millions-of-covid-19-doses-in-u-s-warehouses-but-no-idea-where-to-ship-them

Whats the US Covid fatality count up to now?
325,000 people?
Possibly 400,000 by Inauguration day?
Well done President Trump……..welllllll done.

#48 3s on 12.20.20 at 2:18 pm

That is such politician speak – let’s forget who/what got us into this mess and focus on the solution which is by the way, more of what got us here. Suicidal intergenerational debt, accomodation of p poor ethics, from third world corners of the world, untried vaccines. All while you direct from a wealthy armchair tucked away in a distant corner…apart(heid) by financial design. We’re not all doomers Garth but fine, lets kick the can….

#49 Steerage science on 12.20.20 at 2:18 pm

#40 KnowtheLaw on 12.20.20 at 1:44 pm
You have no constitutional right to make the workplace unsafe. You lose. – Garth

Lose what? I’m confused. Covid is a workplace hazard, that’s all. It does not negate the bill of rights.

If confirmed positive just stay home and get better. Take ivermectin. Go back to work.

Ivermectin works great for bovine parasites… seems fitting for you… geez and all along I’ve been pumping myself full of bleach…

#50 Buddy on 12.20.20 at 2:19 pm

If you got the antidote what do you care if I get it or not? Can still spread it. I’ll get the shot but sites like Zerohedge do make you think. Dismissing 75 million people is also pretty silly – everything in extremes these days. What happened to common sense.

#51 Tommy on 12.20.20 at 2:21 pm

The term “anti-vaxxer” creates confusion and division. It’s a noun used to identify a person who is skeptical of some or all vaccines. It’s a catch-all term encompassing everyone, even those.who support vaccines in general but just may have concerns about a specific vaccine. You’re either an anti-vaxxer or not. There’s no in between, no nuance. It’s a term designed to shut down discussion and questions. I think that the fact the word is a noun is very problematic because it reduces an individual person who has all sorts of identity characteristics to being an embodiment of a single opinion. Can’t someone have an opinion, or even just concerns, without it overriding everything else about that person?! It’s actually a form of identity politics. You’re not just skeptical about vaccines, you’re an “anti-vaxxer”. It’s a form of identity politics based on fear and shame.

#52 Tron Light on 12.20.20 at 2:23 pm

Garth, I’ve already told you – I have consulted with a lawyer here in Ontario about this. What he told me was that unless it was part of the original employment, then they cannot force you to take a vaccine. That constitutes a breaking of your employment contract and therefore, a constructive dismissal in which the employee would be entitled to full severance pay, etc.

Therefore, they are going to have to weigh the cost of possibly paying out millions to employees who may refuse to take an unproven vaccine with keeping the status quo. We all know money talks.

The biggest problem is that when you talk about these things you are not giving people unbiased information in order for them to make their own informed decisions.

Get a better lawyer. – Garth

#53 calgaryPhantom on 12.20.20 at 2:23 pm

Any good employment lawyer firms, whose stock are publicly traded?

I see an opportunity.

#54 Stealth on 12.20.20 at 2:25 pm

Garth is correct.

I personally don’t like it either however You will be vaccinated.
If you believe you have any rights around this you are mistaken. All you need to do is look at history for example you can get mobilized and sent to perish like people have many times before….

Same thing everywhere else on the planet every government, no need to go anywhere. Read on what emergency powers federal governments have and the answer is all, anytime, anything.

The sooner we realize this the sooner we can get the pandemic behind us and get back to what our lizard brain likes. (Vacations, booze, instant gratification, rock and roll, etc.)

With utmost respect of course and no intent to offend just pure reality.

Thank you.

#55 Tron Light on 12.20.20 at 2:27 pm

This directive was put out by the WHO on December 14th without much media attention. It is to clarify use of the PCR test for Covid:

https://www.who.int/news/item/14-12-2020-who-information-notice-for-ivd-users

#56 Fortvna on 12.20.20 at 2:27 pm

I’d rather wear a mask in public for the rest of my life than get vaccinated before I’m satisfied it’s safe. I’m no conspiracy theorist, but surely it’s undisputed that there is big money in big medicine and big pharma. Those interests are not always aligned with the health of the populace. No disrespect to the medical workers in the crowd, I highly respect what you do and the sacrifice being made. But I can simultaneously protect others from potential exposure to me without being vaccinated prematurely.

#57 Dwilly on 12.20.20 at 2:27 pm

This is so absolutely NOT a simple issue, despite being painted as such overwhelmingly by both sides. Here lately you are hearing just one side of it.

Anyone reading this blog post and thinking “this is it, it’s completely clear, no possible risk or downside to this approach”, I am begging you take 90mins and watch this podcast. This is not crazy stuff or loonies, just people with a more naunced approach discussing like adults.

https://youtu.be/ifPjaVL_1yw

Knowledge and discussion are the answer, not chest thumping (either way). At this point, don’t you owe it to yourself, your family and community to be as informed about this as possible?

#58 Leichendiener on 12.20.20 at 2:29 pm

How much does a PCR test cost?
How much does a vaccine jab cost?
I still have a polio vaccine canker scar on my left shoulder, which I suppose dates me. What is the risk and what is the benefit? I have a friend who contracted hep A from travelling to a country that had squat toilets. Being vaccinated would have saved her a year of misery.

#59 neo on 12.20.20 at 2:31 pm

The choice…and then proceeds to to write paragraphs about no choice….Garth really amping up the rhetoric lately.

#60 Barb on 12.20.20 at 2:32 pm

“…employees who refuse the jab can be dismissed without cause”.

——————————————–
Good!
Say good-bye to a juicy severance too.

Speaking of juicy, a sincere thank you and Merry Christmas, followed by a promising New Year, to Garth and Dorothy, to Ryan, Doug and Sinan for protecting our retirement funds. Indeed, for growing them!

Hopefully those wishes shine on Nefeli too.

Thank you for this wonderful blog, Garth and Company.

#61 Felix on 12.20.20 at 2:34 pm

Would it be permissible to make “The choice” as follows?

“Here’s a ball, go fetch boy! Go chase it down to the other end of the bridge. Where the fire is!”

#62 Tron Light on 12.20.20 at 2:35 pm

Why don’t you call this gentleman to get clarification on the Pfizer jab? He lives on Ottawa. I’m sure he would be happy to answer your questions Garth. Dr. Saeed Qureshi (PhD)

“Dr. Qureshi gained extensive (30+ year) experience in conducting hands-on and multi-disciplinary laboratory research in pharmaceutical areas for regulatory assessment purposes while working with Health Canada.

He is an internationally recognised expert in the areas of pharmacokinetics, biopharmaceutics, drug dissolution testing, analytical chemistry as related to characterization of pharmaceuticals, in particular based on in vitro (dissolution) and bioavailability/bioequivalence (humans and animals) assessments.”

Here is his report on the Pfizer vaccine:

http://drug-dissolution-testing.com/blog/files/COVID-FDA-EAC.pdf

The world is full of quack Internet docs, it seems. I’ll trust the FDA, the CDC and Health Canada. – Garth

#63 jerry on 12.20.20 at 2:39 pm

There are no anti vaxxers in the emergency departments. There isn’t one single anti vaxxer ever connected to a ventilator. Not one!

All of them transform into the would have, could have and should have club.

Every single time. 100%

#64 SoggyShorts on 12.20.20 at 2:42 pm

#31 Stonewaller on 12.20.20 at 1:25 pm
I’ve learned almost as much from the comment section, discussing topics and reading linked articles, as I have reading the blog
**********************
Is this you?
https://images.app.goo.gl/Btar5YJXF1HnNiEX6

#65 Stan Brooks on 12.20.20 at 2:47 pm

That determination can not be legal.

The same logic can be applied to people who smoke, drink occasionally, have children, have allergies, for example under the pretext that they represent bigger customer hazard.

Why did no employers request mandatory flu shots in the past?

What if there are proven side effects form the vaccine a year from now, whom do you sue?

I would encourage everyone forced/required by their employer to get vaccination to retain all paper work and in case of proven side effect, sue the heck out of that employer.

Nobody can force you legally to take a risk without consequences.

Law goes both ways.

If the vaccine is proven, with 10 years testing etc. there could be some legal ground but is that the case?

I would expect people giving easily medical and legal advices to be more careful.

Every action that can cause you harm or risk has legal consequences.

Cheers,

#66 Sketchy on 12.20.20 at 2:48 pm

I think mass riots that make 2020 look tame is the more likely result next year. Once people realize what has been done to them they’re not going to take it anymore. I’d stay away from urban centers – not for the vastly over-hyped virus – for the burning buildings and violent mobs.

#67 Neo on 12.20.20 at 2:48 pm

In other Covid news….

Ruby Gobert just signed the third highest contract in NBA history at $205 million over 5 years.

#68 SoggyShorts on 12.20.20 at 2:51 pm

#42 Theyounggreek on 12.20.20 at 2:02 pm
#29 SoggyShorts
I just don’t see the value in vaccinating a large part of our population that already has better odds of not having a serious illness than this vaccine can provide.
*********************
♦Because people from different age and health demographics exist in the same country.
♦Because the vaccine isn’t 100% effective, so the vulnerable on whom the vaccine doesn’t work need our protection.
♦Because many of the most vulnerable can’t take the vaccine at all (think chemo patients, auto-immune disorders, etc)
♦Because if immunity only lasts for a year or 2 then the young could pass it around forever in a circle.
♦Because if we don’t irradicate it, it will mutate, and one of those mutations might not have a vaccine.

Basically, all of the usual reasons why people need to get vaccinated.
You asked where in your post you implied that you are anti-vax, well IMO anyone against vaccinating the majority of the population is anti-vax.

#69 Sketchy on 12.20.20 at 2:54 pm

Face masks are not effective but are instead used by the government to maintain the levels of fear. They are a visual symbol to people that something is wrong.

Even worse that anti-vaxers are anti-maskers. Go away. – Garth

#70 biochemist on 12.20.20 at 2:55 pm

“26 Theyounggreek on 12.20.20 at 1:10 pm

Sorry Garth but this makes no sense. The vaccine doesn’t stop you from getting the virus. They don’t know whether it stops you from transmitting the virus but you’re going to force people to take it. A healthy 20 year old has a minuscule chance of having a negative outcome. Why vaccinate young healthy people? Makes no sense. Vaccinate the old and vulnerable, then open up the economy. Let the virus rip through the younger population. This will allow young healthy people develop antibodies the natural way. In the mean time continue vaccinating anyone who wants a vaccine and we’ll be at herd immunity by summer.”

—-

Perhaps because that 20 year old has a 66 year old coworker who is at much higher risk? or, perhaps, it’s someone with allergies that can’t get the vaccine, who is relying on their coworkers not to spread it.

Incidentally, the whole thing about 20 year olds not having negative outcomes is a misconception. They don’t die as often, but they are still prone to severe disease – the break is that they survive hospitalization, not that they don’t get hospitalized. It still puts circa 2-3% of 20-somehings in hospital (and our response has always been as much about keeping hospitalizations down as death)

People are bad with numbers, but I will remark that that is a terrifying number, far higher than just about anything out there in the developed world, and moreso when you start thinking about the 5% or so of *those* that have incapacitating after-effects, where we have no idea about recovery prospects. *that* is also terrifying – as is more recent information where it seems that even mild cases are developing scarring in their hearts or lungs – the consequences of which will not be apparent for decades. And, if it doesn’t get you, you can spread it to someone who may not be so lucky.

My question is, why would you want the disease over the vaccine? The vaccine is rough. No doubt. But the more we find out about COVID, the more I’m willing to chance being sore for a day or so. This disease is nasty business.

One final thing to consider: people seem to get caught up on the “no pregnant women” claim. This is something where “no information” means “no information”. This does not mean it’s unsafe – it is very likely fine, but that hasn’t been confirmed. For their sake, get the vaccine.

#71 Make Believes on 12.20.20 at 3:00 pm

#1 SOMETHINGS UP! on 12.20.20 at 11:37 am

Well looks like i’ll never fly, watch the Maple Leafs or work ever again…….PERFECT

________________________

I somehow doubt you’ll be able to ignore the Maple Leafs losing again and again, at least on TV. It’s like a car crash scene; you just can’t pull yourself away from looking. Too much pleasure knowing they will drag their adorning yet naive fans thru the ringer, over and over.

Besides, this year will be different!

#72 Stone on 12.20.20 at 3:08 pm

#46 Canuck on 12.20.20 at 2:14 pm
If you thought 8% unemployment was bad, think what 30-40% unemployment would be. Can you imagine Canadian Tire or Home depot only being open 9-6 Monday to Saturday because they can’t find enough lemmings to get vaccinated for a 17.00 an hour job?

———

Every day, I see desperate people (you know, the population in general) do jobs that are unsafe or so boring that a root canal is better. Debt level in Canada in the 170% range? Lol. They’ll get jabbed. Every single one of them. They’re wage slaves. They don’t have a choice.

And another thing. You’re concerned about store hours? Really? Have you heard about online shopping? There’s this small mom and pop shop called Amazon online. You can buy whatever you want, 24 hours a day, everyday.

There’s a simple solution to everything.

#73 Winterpeg on 12.20.20 at 3:08 pm

I am eligible for the Vaccine (born before 1960 and front line) Am getting my first shot Wednesday.
I don’t work in ICU or ER, but I work in rehab, in the same complex as long term care residents. We get referrals that come from acute care beds. All are tested for Covid when they come. It was a stressful learning curve, adapting to daily updates on how to manage, but we are getting more proficient each day. I don’t envy those workers in the thick of acute care.

Although I get the flu shot every year, I had some trepidation at first due to the speed of the roll out, but after reading the science it looks pretty sound.
I don’t necessarily like the idea of denying employment if you refuse to get the shot. Sounding a bit Orwellian, but these are unusual times.
I think, in health care, there are some mechanisms to pay people who have to self isolate if they had an exposure at work and are waiting in quarantine for test results (meaning they don’t necessarily have to use up their sick time bank).
And I think if it is shown you develop Covid from an exposure at work, you go on Workman’s comp. ( But don’t quote me on that)
Anyway, the beat goes on, an I will be glad when this is in the rear view mirror .

#74 Alberta Ed on 12.20.20 at 3:09 pm

At least the anti-vaxers will improve the gene pool.

#75 Keen Reader on 12.20.20 at 3:14 pm

Nice progress in differentiating hesitators from anti-vaxxers! Grand-standing and poo-pooing others isn’t helpful. People on BOTH sides strongly opine, often based on incomplete, obsolete, flawed and even retracted studies and publications. Conflicting info still abounds, even between the WHO, NIH and reputable medical journals (won’t link again).

There are multiple paths to mitigating this crisis, to include prevention, therapies and immunization. All personal/public measures, current drugs and vaccines, are insufficient on their own, and each has pros and cons. In time, efficacy data will speak for itself. As we say in flight-testing, one good test is worth a thousand opinions!

I’m as pro vaccines as pro planes, but all aren’t equally good/bad. Many folks quickly blamed weak pilots and bad companies for the 737 MAX crashes, yet problems existed in hardware, software, training and certification. Similarly, no silver bullet exists for COVID yet, especially given an evolving threat (already variants already, hello CV-21?). Still, status quo is not an option; I reluctantly expect adding an mRNA vaccine to my very-full booklet! Let’s please step out of the respective echo chambers and work towards agreeable solutions, instead of alienating each other.

PS -Thanks again to Alex G for repeatedly providing valuable info and analysis, without pretention or denigrating others.

#76 Stan Brooks on 12.20.20 at 3:22 pm

My opinion is that vaccination should be by choice but incentivized – reduced taxes, community dwelling etc.

To be penalized without work (basic human right) for declining to be vaccinated sounds fishy.

In law there is principle of proven harm by action or inaction, leading to damage that should be compensated for.

Nobody can prove that you/your employer/employee passed the virus to him, so he got sick and sue for compensation as such proof can not be established clearly and beyond any reasonable doubt.

So I don’t understand why employers are rushing into this legal battle.

On another hand proven negative effects from a vaccine can be established and tracked to that vaccine to the legal case of caused harm has merit and everyone with a proven part of that chain is potentially liable in court.

Ultimately once vaccines are proven it could be forced to some legal extent/still subject to some liability.

It is the same if you are retiree or prudent saver and request all credit junkies to be cut of credit or attend mandatory financial literacy course as they clearly cause damage to you, good luck with that.

Responsibility goes both ways.

Again, we should not be giving light advices on this.

Coward. – Garth

#77 Roial1 on 12.20.20 at 3:27 pm

Garth, YOU have the nastiest sense of humor. Do you do this in revenge for what happened to you in UDawa???

I for one love it when the nutters take it seriously.
I know you are right BUT do you have to stick their fingers into the nest just to excite the “wasps”.

I for one don’t think that you will ever win an argument with these types of BONE HEADS. My friends call them “Door Knobs” because of the intelligence level involved.

It is really useless to try to educate them but I enjoy your trying. Keep on amusing me.

Better than “Saturday Night Live”.

#78 SWL on 12.20.20 at 3:27 pm

2020 is the year logic was lost. Rational debate no longer exists. Take the jab and still be at risk of infection for a virus that is already mutating or don’t take the jab and be ridiculed by the herd. Pick your poison, but no rational debate please

Where we are at has been decades in the making, but most people have been blind or willfully ignorant to the reality of the situation

#79 Elon Fanboy on 12.20.20 at 3:29 pm

Sorry….what am I missing?

Everyone appears to be implying that being vaccinated means you can’t infect others?

Wrong…..

There is no evidence that this is the case. You can still be contagious and infect others. Being vaccinated just reduces the symptoms personally.

The only way everyone is protected is if everyone is jabbed, i.e. herd immunity.

For the umpteenth time… vaccine lessens disease. That saves the healthcare system so everyone benefits. How is this hard to understand? – Garth

#80 Darwin was right... on 12.20.20 at 3:36 pm

#1 Somethings up

“Well looks like i’ll never fly, watch the Maple Leafs or work ever again…….PERFECT!!!”

Awesome, add no Life or Health Insurance to that list for ya. I honestly think there may be a morbid bright side to this. You see, there was this guy named Darwin, and right now he’d be thinking what a natural way to thin the herd.

#81 majik on 12.20.20 at 3:38 pm

Will employers be willing to shoulder the liability if an employee, who is required to take the vaccine, has an adverse reaction to said vaccine?

Will governments be indemnifying private business? Or will government introduce mandatory vaccination thereby relieving business of liability? Or will employees, even those who willingly take the vaccine, be also required to sign a waiver of claims to release the employer from liability?

These are standard liability issues that would need to be addressed regardless if the employee wanted the vaccine or not.

It is stunning to see the fear, trepidation and lack of courage and conviction among the vaccine hesitators. How did you become so selfish? Society’s only escape is this pathway. So it’s not just about you. – Garth

#82 Stan Brooks on 12.20.20 at 3:39 pm

Get a better lawyer. – Garth

Sadly I have to disagree, that constitutes breach of employment, a legal contract, and can not be forced without concessions by the employer.

Request to be employed on a new job/only if vaccinated by an employer drives bigger liability in case there are side effects. In case of refusal due to lack of vaccination, it could be potentially treated as a discrimination. I see no benefits for employers in forcing that.

Living in a lawful society has it’s complications and consequences. There is no way that will fly in US.

Can the government force it? Sure. But that could undermine it’s credibility/and there is not much of it left.

Generally I trust authorities but as of recently my trust in BoC and statistics as well as in some other institutions is turning negative, i.e. I perceive them as a threat, not as an ally/god forbid somebody who protects my interests.

We need some broader discussion on the topic.

#83 John on 12.20.20 at 3:45 pm

This doesn’t make any sense. Who are unvaxxed people a danger to? People who took the shot? If that’s the case, then what was the point of taking it?

#84 To the point. on 12.20.20 at 3:46 pm

Garth,
While I truly admire your bravery for taking a strong stance on this vaccination issue, I cannot fail to notice your innate (it’s either black or white) conservatism. I know you think you are speaking the “truth” but sometimes the more liberal (looking at both sides) approach is less DOGmatic.

#85 Stan Brooks on 12.20.20 at 3:46 pm

Coward. – Garth

I was advised by a doctor – that vaccination should be by choice. He won’t vaccinate, I probably will.

When you have small kids/he has/ you better be ‘coward’. Responsibility goes to family first.

Not everyone is superman, I frankly believe this discussion to be unnecessary and useless.

There is law, and then there is persuasion, I simply don’t believe in rushed unproved force majored actions.

Convince me.

#86 Kevin BC on 12.20.20 at 3:48 pm

Great article, Garth.

Why do you think your blog attracts so many conservative and anti-science/anti-vaccine voices? A quick look at today’s comment section reminded me of this… why do they keep coming back here?

#87 Anonymous on 12.20.20 at 3:49 pm

#11 Linda:

Very interesting idea, but this is not a loophole. The text Garth quoted clearly states that reasonable accommodation can be done and is fine.
If an employee have proven effective working from home, then the employer has a duty to provide reasonable accommodation by way of working from home. What is the problem with this?

The post today concentrated on employment, not on societal responsibility as a whole.

If a person has a life threatening allergy that prevents them from taking the vaccine (UK specifically does not vaccinate people with anaphylactic reactions), and the person can be accommodated by working from home, it is the best of all worlds. Finally we have a win-win situation.
Not a loophole, but a good and proper balance between the needs of society as a whole and the needs of the individual.

#88 "NUTS!" on 12.20.20 at 3:55 pm

Hi Everyone,
Here’s what I’m struggling with when I hear this incredibly ignorant resistance to the epidemiologists, scientists, and their vaccine. Those same people are the same ones who will call 911 or rush themselves to the hospital at the first signs of a serious ailment (including the effects of Covid). They have, and continue to trust the medical community to save their lives when they are going down. Yet it’s the same community that developed the medical marvels that are keeping us and our loved ones alive longer than any time in history. The same people using the same scientific methodologies that cracked your father’s chest open and saved his life. The same ones that are giving those in your life who survived cancer the chance to live. Yet, you feel that you, a person with no medical or scientific credentials can say “wait, no I think this one time I don’t trust the medical and scientific experts”.

Do us a favour, unless you have actual data, stop talking. And FYI, what you read on a blog or what you heard from your friend’s cousin, doesn’t constitute as data!

#89 espressobob on 12.20.20 at 4:02 pm

The only thing that’s hard to understand is why so many deny a solution to the problem at hand. I don’t get it?

With the rollout of vaccines it would seem obvious that this is the beginning of the end of this pandemic. That’s not great news?

If its that needle that bothers why not bite down on a piece of balsa wood while being injected. Seriously…

#90 Howard on 12.20.20 at 4:06 pm

This idea of blackmailing people into getting this new vaccine or else they’ll be fired will lead social unrest 100-fold worse than what was witnessed this past summer. Be careful what you wish for.

No mumps, measles, chickenpox of polio today because those who came before you did exactly this. Man up. – Garth

#91 kc on 12.20.20 at 4:10 pm

DELETED

#92 Canuck on 12.20.20 at 4:10 pm

It is stunning to see the fear, trepidation and lack of courage and conviction among the vaccine hesitators. How did you become so selfish? Society’s only escape is this pathway. So it’s not just about you. – Garth
_____________________________________________

Society’s only escape??? After almost a full year, 2% of the population has been infected… and you think the other 98% will lose their job if they don’t get vaccinated. Wow…

Now 14,000 dead in Canada, over 300,000 in the US. Hospitalizations and ICU usage at a record level. Cancer and cardiac treatments halted. Don’t be an idiot. – Garth

#93 EnnDeePea on 12.20.20 at 4:13 pm

Tesla is being added to the S&P 500 tomorrow – should rock the boat a bit.

#94 Penny Henny on 12.20.20 at 4:23 pm

#22 I’m poor on 12.20.20 at 12:52 pm
“The choice”

Is it better to be poor in Ontario or Alberta?
////////////////

crossbordershopper is the one to ask on this one

#95 majik on 12.20.20 at 4:24 pm

It is stunning to see the fear, trepidation and lack of courage and conviction among the vaccine hesitators. How did you become so selfish? Society’s only escape is this pathway. So it’s not just about you. – Garth

———–

I posited a number of questions related to liabilities. These liability issues will certainly be discussed as part of any mandatory requirement by government or business. The questions are presented in an unopinionated manner.

The liability of being vaccinated for almost everyone is zero. The liability for society of a protracted pandemic is clear. It’s now. It is 100%. Debate is moot. – Garth

#96 Retired in Kelowna on 12.20.20 at 4:27 pm

When I was young Vaccinations were a part of going to School. Gr.1, Gr.4, Gr. 7 Line up, roll up your sleeve and get jabbed. No Exceptions, no griping about it, no opting out.
And guess what? No more Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Small Pox, etc. Imagine that.
Are some of you posters on here are actually afraid of Needles? Time to grow up and do your part for the common good.

#97 sailedaway on 12.20.20 at 4:27 pm

Who cares about that? Stock markets are up, I sold my house in BC for 2.3 millions.

Why should I care about employees? I don’t

#98 Howard on 12.20.20 at 4:29 pm

No mumps, measles, chickenpox of polio today because those who came before you did exactly this. Man up. – Garth

———————————————-

I think all those ailments are quite a bit more serious than a bug with a 99% recovery rate (more like 99.8% if under 80). It was a reasonable and correct calculation that the risk posed by polio affliction far surpassed the risk from the polio vaccine. Maybe not so with chickenpox however (was a rather benign albeit itchy childhood rite of passage pre-Y2K).

I will probably get the vaccine. For the time being it is not approved for children and pregnant women and I hope those restrictions remain in place until post-vaccinated adults can be monitored for several years.

#99 Jimmy Zhao on 12.20.20 at 4:30 pm

I remember getting ChickenPox and staying home from school.
I watched The Price is Right and drank Ginger Ale.

Barker’s beauties ahhh.. those were the days.

#100 millmech on 12.20.20 at 4:31 pm

I advise everyone to get the vaxx, but before you do go in and get tested for heart and various covid related illnesses. You can now go to your work vaccinated and as long as you are following covid protocols and you get sick, most likely from your employment you can now sue your employer for compensation. As stated in the blog it is the employers responsibility to ensure that you have “immunity”, it your employers responsibility to provide a safe work place. The funniest thing about the vaccination is that it does not provide any immunity from covid ,it just lessens the symptoms but if your employer demands you take it, you can now demand compensation for any symptom or illnesses that can come up even years later.

I have brought up another virus (HIV/Hep C) and the reason for it was we had a first aid situation at my job and we worked on a person who was badly injured(severed leg)a lot of blood was lost, even though we were gloved up, we had to go in for blood borne pathogen testing after and that is when we found out we had been exposed. We asked our employer how come we were not informed about this persons condition and we were informed that it was confidential medical information. We had no right to know that this person had pathogens and that we should have taken more self protective measures.
I luckily was not exposed but if I had I could have easily passed it on to my wife and kids possibly and would have had no legal recourse for compensation.
I wonder now if this(covid) will set a new legal precedent that all illnesses that could adversely affect the safety at your work will have to be reported in the interest of our social contract(looking at you legal pot users)

#101 Toronto_CA on 12.20.20 at 4:32 pm

Well, I guess the courts will decide this based on the evidence.
And there will be a lot of lawsuits filed if not willing to be vaccinated is used to dismiss someone from gainful employment.
Ditto lawsuits if someone is forced to get the vaccine in order to keep their job, and then develops an illness from the vaccine or the vaccine turns out to cause some form of temporary or permanent impairment.
As someone said above, Supreme Courts in many countries will be handling this issue.

And I also see (more) civil unrest if its forced on people, and public sector union strikes.

#102 Dave on 12.20.20 at 4:32 pm

Darwinism…people too stupid to get the vaccine, well, we may not have to worry about them for too long

#103 Regjeg on 12.20.20 at 4:40 pm

To Justin T:

Are you sure that every single ingredient in the chicken soup or hot dogs or Pad Thai or spaghetti sauce or ice cream or ______ (fill in the blank) that you consume every day is 100% safe for you?

If so, how have you achieved that level of certainty?

If not, why are you settling for less than 100% safety in the countless items you put into your body every day, but requiring it in a one time, double dose vaccine?

#104 Bill zufelt on 12.20.20 at 4:43 pm

Those refusing the shot will not be allowed on the work premises but it will probably be a little harder to get rid of them.Work from home or a hefty severence package will be offered before outright firing.

#105 Hilroy on 12.20.20 at 4:44 pm

Have the unions issued a statement yet? 30% of the workforce is unionized.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/442980/canada-union-coverage-rate-by-province/

#106 crowdedelevatorfartz on 12.20.20 at 4:45 pm

@#66 Sketchy
“I’d stay away from urban centers – not for the vastly over-hyped virus – for the burning buildings and violent mobs.”

+++
Is that before or after they are cut off CERB and have to pawn their PS5?

#107 Victor V on 12.20.20 at 4:45 pm

Mattamy, Brookfield reveal office COVID testing program as more companies plan workplace screening

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-canadian-companies-eye-rapid-covid-19-testing-for-employees/

#108 Anonymous on 12.20.20 at 4:45 pm

Garth: “No mumps, measles, chickenpox of polio today because those who came before you did exactly this. Man up. – Garth”

Very true, fully agree.

So why aren’t those vaccines, in addition to influenza, HPV and many other mandatory under the same ethical and legal rational?

#109 Howard on 12.20.20 at 4:49 pm

#99 Jimmy Zhao on 12.20.20 at 4:30 pm
I remember getting ChickenPox and staying home from school.
I watched The Price is Right and drank Ginger Ale.

Barker’s beauties ahhh.. those were the days.

———————————————-

Yes we all got it in those days. My poor mother had to tend to three kids who were all sick with it at the same time.

I do sometimes wonder what the consequences will be in terms of immune system resilience for kids these days who are so heavily insulated from typical childhood maladies. I guess that’s a topic for a different blog.

#110 yvr_lurker on 12.20.20 at 4:54 pm

I am willing to take the vaccine, and I do see the logic in the law that employers can insist that workers do take it. However, there is much we will have to learn about the vaccine in the next year regarding how effective it is etc… It is not a done deal by any stretch in my view.

Where I do draw a line is the idea of an 18 year old kid paid 12.00 an hour guarding the entrance to the SuperStore and Costco checking to see that we have our vaccination cards for admittance. If this becomes the new reality, then this violates any sense of civil liberties, and I will find other smaller places to shop.

#111 Doug t on 12.20.20 at 4:54 pm

I don’t really get the whole “coward” thing – you could almost argue that those who can’t wait to get the jab are “idiots” – semantics meh

What drives the anti-vax crowd? Fear. Seems cowardly, no? Garth

#112 baloney Sandwitch on 12.20.20 at 4:56 pm

Garth, thanks for laying down the law, either get jabbed or be cast out of the herd (no employment, no schooling, no travel).

#113 David on 12.20.20 at 5:00 pm

DELETED

#114 Paul B on 12.20.20 at 5:05 pm

I think the compulsion to take the vaccine would make sense if the vaccine prevented you from getting the virus and then spreading it. These vaccines do not do that….or at least the studies have not yet proven that they prevent transmission. They do make the symptoms less dangerous. What is the rationale to terminate an employee if the vaccine does not prevent transmission?

We are trying to save the health care system. Duh. – Garth

#115 Doug in London on 12.20.20 at 5:06 pm

@Dave, post #102:
I couldn’t agree more! If anyone’s too stupid to take something that could save their life than fine. The sooner there’ll be enough so I can get vaccinated. Most likely you’ll get some confirmation of this vaccination. I’ll photocopy and scan mine and carry the original with me everywhere I go, possibly even carrying it around with me at a nude beach if my travels take me there. I’m not a sports fan, but will gladly watch The Leafs lose on TV during or after another one of my safaris to some faraway place you can only fly to.

Dammit, I paid into the Canada Pension Plan and will be quite pissed if I don’t get to collect it for many years because I died early of COVID. Bring the vaccine on!

Say, is that picture of the Capilano Suspension Bridge?

#116 jackfrost on 12.20.20 at 5:09 pm

GARTH has been turned, like Ford. HEALTHY people are not a virus. You get the jab if you are worried. Leave the rational people alone.

#117 Diversified in Oakville (Now Mississauga) on 12.20.20 at 5:10 pm

Totally agree with employers requiring a Vax. Too bad Ford and GM in the U.S. have already said they will not require it.
America going to hell in a hand basket.

#118 Faron on 12.20.20 at 5:10 pm

#35 crowdedelevatorfartz on 12.20.20 at 1:29 pm

@#4 Ponzies Pruned Plants

So, like, a Brazillian

#119 Doug t on 12.20.20 at 5:14 pm

I’m no anti vaxer – just don’t think anyone’s a coward for questioning TPTB – plus I think society is getting pretty done with constantly be told by said PTB that they have to get back in the box and stop acting independently- also nothing wrong with being a “coward” – too many damn hero wanna bets out there

#120 Linda on 12.20.20 at 5:15 pm

#29 ‘Soggy’ – thing is, most people still think Covid only affects the elderly (death) & are unaware of the possible long term health affects of contracting Covid. They believe their youth/health will protect them; that Covid is nothing-burger insofar as they are concerned.

For those unfortunates who may be told a few days/weeks/months down the road that Covid did damage to some of their major organs, which is why they still feel crappy & no, we don’t have a ‘magic bullet’ that will fix the damage – can’t see how that is going to bring a smile to anyone’s face. Even if the person was a rabid anti-mask/anti-vaccine proponent.

#121 Theyounggreek on 12.20.20 at 5:17 pm

#70 biochemist

Can we agree that the vaccine is 95% effective at keeping people from having “serious illness” not “complete immunity”? So therefore 5% will still have “serious illness”.
I suggested that young healthy 20 year olds don’t need a vaccine because they already have better odds at not getting “serious illness”.
You argued some people are not good at math and that 2-3% of young healthy people would still get “serious illness”. If you are correct then 97-98% of young healthy 20 year olds will not get “serious illness”.
Is 97-98% odds of not getting “serious illness” better than 95% odds of not getting “serious illness”?

#68 SoggyShorts

Are you a pharma salesman or an insurance salesman? Regardless your playbook is the same, use fear to sell stuff that in a lot of cases is unnecessary.
Obviously we live in a society with different demographics. The old are vulnerable the young not so much. Whether someone gets the antibodies through the virus or the vaccine makes zero difference to the chemo patient or auto-immune patient. They still can’t take the current vaccine.
Furthermore there is no data to suggest that someone who has taken the vaccine will have a longer antibody response than someone who has contracted the virus? How could they possibly know that, this vaccine and virus have only been around less than a year.

Herd immunity is the goal. Only way to get there is through contracting the virus or getting the vaccine. I’ll be taking the vaccine but I would never force someone who is low risk to take it. They’ll get there the natural way.

#122 Paul B on 12.20.20 at 5:21 pm

#114 “We are trying to save the health care system. Duh. – Garth”

I guess it really sucks to have a disability that prevents a person from being safely vaccinated, so they lose their job….I am sure they feel better that the rest of us might appreciate their sacrifice.

A disabled person may well need an elevated level of health care. Do we allow the system to collapse under the weight of a virus for which we have a vaccine because a slew of knuckle-draggers fear needles? – Garth

#123 Bill on 12.20.20 at 5:21 pm

#20 IHCTD9 on 12.19.20 at 2:58 pm

From prior blog. 2 thumbs up on that and of course that was “loan”
2 nieces quit their jobs jumped on the free money bandwagon and now their permanent deadbeats smokin weed. My bro moved them home (not so smart) so their “kept kids”
So much for their future, piss poor accountability and now no motivation…
I guess the robots are coming so all will be OK…

#124 Sheesh on 12.20.20 at 5:24 pm

#62 Tron Light on 12.20.20 at 2:35 pm
He is an internationally recognised expert in the areas of pharmacokinetics, biopharmaceutics, drug dissolution testing, analytical chemistry as related to characterization of pharmaceuticals, in particular based on in vitro (dissolution) and bioavailability/bioequivalence (humans and animals) assessments.”
……
While those are impressive credentials, They do NOT make him an expert in infectious disease, immunology or virology. Those are incredibly complex fields and the people who have made it their life’s work are the experts you want to be listening to.

If I wanted to know about the pharmacokinetics of a certain drug, he’d be the one to listen to. Vaccines aren’t drugs, though, and to be honest, he comes across as a little unbalanced.

#125 Axehead on 12.20.20 at 5:25 pm

Stupid question: why would someone who tested positive and has built an immunity be required to get a vaccine shot?

Stupid prediction: if the above proves realistic, perhaps there will be those seeking Covid infection rather than the vaccine?

#126 Leo Trollstoy on 12.20.20 at 5:29 pm

Everybody relax

Nobody’s getting vaccinated any time soon

There’s not enough doses to vaccinate a small hamlet

#127 lifeisgood on 12.20.20 at 5:32 pm

More nonsense.

Even if you get the vaccine you still can spread the virus between the moment you “catch” Covid and the moment the vaccine works to get rid of it !

2020 is the year of nonsenses !

#128 Long-Time Lurker on 12.20.20 at 5:33 pm

DELETED

#129 Long-Time Lurker on 12.20.20 at 5:37 pm

By the way, I have no boss. I haven’t had a boss since the 90s.

#130 crowdedelevatorfartz on 12.20.20 at 5:42 pm

@#118 faron
“So, like, a Brazillian”

+++
Re Ponzies zerohedge
There are a few things I cant “unsee”……. you’ve just added to the list…..

#131 SoggyShorts on 12.20.20 at 5:43 pm

#83 John on 12.20.20 at 3:45 pm

This doesn’t make any sense. Who are unvaxxed people a danger to? People who took the shot? If that’s the case, then what was the point of taking it?

*******************
Pay attention, the vaccine is not 100% effective, and not everyone can take it (allergies, autoimmune deficiencies, chemo etc)

Therefore a very significant portion of pro-vaccine people are in danger from anti-vaxxers.
More than 1 in 20, and that’s assuming the vaccine lasts forever.

#132 Km on 12.20.20 at 5:43 pm

This all makes lots of sense, if this had only affected one small area this wouldn’t be an issue. The fact the entirety of society had too makes it a must for everyone to do if they are able. I do however understand the apprehension of everyone though as I have a severe auto immune and the worry it may interfere with my meds definitely adds anxiety and I am pro vaccinations all the way. That being said there is plenty of info on it so to decide against taking it with ample evidence of safety for the average person is definitely breaking the social obligations we have to our fellow person.

#133 WDL on 12.20.20 at 5:43 pm

Welcome to the world where you really don’t have rights and your body is not your own……. Next comes some type of internment camp for those who will not comply……

Your cage is ready. – Garth

#134 Steve on 12.20.20 at 5:43 pm

Got the first dose of the Pfizer vaccine yesterday. Piece of cake. Do your duty and get it.

#135 Polecat on 12.20.20 at 5:45 pm

Just heard on the radio, Ontario going into major lockdown Christmas eve.

#136 the Jaguar on 12.20.20 at 5:50 pm

Plus 6 degrees and sunny today. What a great time to be alive I thought, as I walked briskly along the pathway through Prince’s Island. Then I remembered the Environment Canada winter storm watch.

30-50 cm of snow expected in southwestern Alberta, with 20-25 cm of snow expected by the end of the day on Tuesday for the City of Calgary. Damn those people who pray for a white Christmas! And damn those Americanos to the south since the storm is coming up from Montana!

But that’s the blame game, isn’t it? Seeing the glass half empty instead of half full. Sort of like this vaccine business. After almost a year of fear, misery, being absent from everything and everyone we care about, so many people embrace a new fear despite the proven success of vaccines and trusting in medical research and science.
Stubbornly closing their minds to the evidence and to the reality that some issues are just bigger than themselves. Time to show your humanity and sacrifice for the common good. Save lives and protect the vulnerable.
I had a little talk with myself. I’ll be out on that pathway again on Monday, grateful to be living in a great city, a great province, and to be in good health.
Thank you everyone in my life who made it possible. Thank you to everyone who worked so tirelessly to bring us this vaccine and save the world.

#137 Tummy Rub on 12.20.20 at 5:50 pm

Wow
Reading this blog today makes me sick
Will everyone take a breath
What’s wrong with you people.

Why is everyone so against everything?
Garth
You deserve praise today for reading this garbage.

#138 Tron Light on 12.20.20 at 5:51 pm

Apparently Ford will make an announcement of a 28 day full province lockdown tomorrow. All this for a PCR testing pandemic. When are these politicians going to pull their heads out of their a&#es and realize they are being duped?

#139 SoggyShorts on 12.20.20 at 5:55 pm

#121 Theyounggreek on 12.20.20 at 5:17 pm
The vaccine isn’t 95% effective for healthy 20-year olds, where did you read that?

That number was based on the whole study, not just those who fit your description. For them, it was likely much higher.
Regardless, you have to take those numbers together so it is not Covid is 97% safe vs vaccine protects 95% of the time for 20-year-olds.

If you have a 3% chance of a bad reaction from catching Covid and can reduce it by 95% that brings it down to 0.15%, doesn’t it? Probably even lower if 20-year-olds have better results than the elderly.

If I was 20 I would absolutely want to lower my odds of heart & lung scarring, and I sure as hell wouldn’t expect my co-workers to be ok with me being a possible source of infection for them just because I like my odds.

#140 Tron Light on 12.20.20 at 5:56 pm

It really is unbelievable how many people think “we’re all gonna die” on here!

How many times does it need to be repeated? This is about lessening disease so the health care system can function for everyone and not be COVID-clogged. – Garth

#141 SoggyShorts on 12.20.20 at 5:59 pm

#126 SoggyShorts on 12.20.20 at 5:55 pm
Note there’s probably some protection overlap so not 0.15%, but any reduction from 3% is important, or should be.

#142 Doug in London on 12.20.20 at 5:59 pm

Here’s something to think about. Most people will never try the sport of parachuting, even once, because of the fear you could get killed. However, according to statistics kept by the United States Parachuting Association, one death occurs in 20,000 jumps so it’s not that dangerous. It’s interesting that many people who will never try parachuting will refuse a vaccine for a virus that has a far greater chance of killing them than a parachute jump.

#143 the Jaguar on 12.20.20 at 6:00 pm

@#60 Barb on 12.20.20 at 2:32 pm
‘Hopefully those wishes shine on Nefeli too.’

I hope she is renamed. I like the name ‘Arrow’ like the Avro Arrow. She’s supersonic.

#144 ryan on 12.20.20 at 6:03 pm

#74

completely agree. this problem will take care of itself.

#145 Job#1 on 12.20.20 at 6:09 pm

“The world is full of quack Internet docs, it seems. I’ll trust the FDA, the CDC and Health Canada. – Garth”

This is because you know for a fact that the only experts qualified to adjudicate these issues are employed by government, pharmaceutical corp.s and regulatory agencies. All dissenting expert opinions can be summarily rejected because they’re all quacks.

Your unquestioning faith in the infallibility of these groups ignores the all too human failings demonstrated when politics makes science subservient to its dictates.

The censorship and muzzling by social media platforms and the MSM of any hint of scientific controversy is what gives impetus to the growth of whackjob conspiracy theories. Hide something and people will wonder…

These issues need to be determined by open debate among all qualified members of the medical science community, not just those beholden to the current narrative. You cannot expect public acceptance and compliance when one side of an argument is suppressed instead of being met with valid scientific answers.

#146 chris on 12.20.20 at 6:11 pm

CAn I share the CDC official info on this vaccine technology ? I would be really disappointed as this is Government of US website
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html

#147 crowdedelevatorfartz on 12.20.20 at 6:22 pm

@#123 bill
“2 nieces quit their jobs jumped on the free money bandwagon and now their permanent deadbeats smokin weed. My bro moved them home (not so smart) so their “kept kids”
So much for their future, piss poor accountability and now no motivation…”

+++
Yep.
The same story is happening out here to friends, co-workers, relatives….kids.
Quit their crappy jobs and went on CERB…..9 months of PS4 and smoking weed have sucked all the incentive right out of them.

But.
Not to worry.
Apparently Trudeau isnt going to keep shoveling an endless supply of money out the door…….

https://nationalpost.com/news/trudeau-says-government-will-absolutely-return-to-budget-balance-lower-temporary-covid-19-spending

….and Pigs have wings

#148 Manitoba Whale on 12.20.20 at 6:26 pm

Thanks for the heads up Garth.

We will encourage our employees to get the jab when it is available.

#149 majik on 12.20.20 at 6:26 pm

The liability of being vaccinated for almost everyone is zero. The liability for society of a protracted pandemic is clear. It’s now. It is 100%. Debate is moot. – Garth

——-

Yes the liability is very low, however almost zero liability is not zero liability. That is why governments have traditionally indemnified vaccine manufacturers for large scale vaccine rollouts. The cost of carrying even that very low liability by the manufacturers would be burdensome to the development of a reasonably priced vaccine. Governments assume the risk and get a cheaper vaccine. Vaccine manufacturers win, government wins and society wins all because the issue of “almost zero” liability is considered and addressed.

#150 Nonplused on 12.20.20 at 6:26 pm

I don’t think it is cowardly to wait to be vaccinated because I am not high risk or a front line worker. I’ll sign up for the jab when it is readily available to the general public like a flu jab. Until then I’ll just keep wearing my mask and holing up in my basement.

Sure, that means by the time I get jabbed there will be lots of data on the effectiveness and side effects, which works in my favor, but it is not cowardice when something happens to work in your favor.

I think it would be more cowardly to try and push to the front of the line. I’d rather my dental hygienist gets the jab before I do. She is at a much higher risk of contracting and spreading it than I am. And the poor girl has to dress in a hazmat suit to do her job right now. But when my turn comes I will roll up my sleeve.

Maybe they could hand out cookies. My dog seems to be able to face his annual jabs with bravery because the vet gives him cookies.

#151 kommykim on 12.20.20 at 6:27 pm

RE: #12 Justin T on 12.20.20 at 12:24 pm
They know their lies don’t make any sense. And they know that you know they don’t make any sense. They want you to know it. That is the point. They want you to know they are lying to you, manipulating you, openly mocking you, and that they can say and do anything they want to you, and you will go along with it, no matter how insane.

=======================================

Congrats. You just described the Trump election campaign.

#152 Peter C on 12.20.20 at 6:27 pm

I think people in general have been lied to so much by the politicians that they instinctively put everything the politicians say in brackets and insert a big – minus in front.

How could the the likes of Trudeau, Tam, Freeland etc be surprised when nobody believes them when they continue to give conflicting messages (and even blatancy lie) without any repercussions?

#153 waltersafety on 12.20.20 at 6:32 pm

“The anti vax movement has been fueled by politics”
And the pro vax fueled by billionaires, uncomprimised scientists, unimpeachable media and transparent governments that have never lied to their citizens before?

#154 Prince Polo on 12.20.20 at 6:35 pm

I am curious what the Venn diagram would look like for the “but muh freedoms” vs “I’m not anti-vaxxer but…” crowds. Most people would agree that we constantly make trade offs to our freedoms without a second thought, so why is there so much resistance to getting a tiny needle prick?

Let’s not forget that billions of $ and millions of hours were put into researching viable solutions (probably orders of magnitude less than was invested into a flu vaccine). There will be millions of people inoculated in short order, which, logically, should be more than a sufficient sample size for the skeptics; think about it – if Bill Gates really wanted to infect you with a nanosized mind-controlling microchip, he’d do it under less fanfare like releasing it in your drinking water during the next Windows update (sarcasm). Maybe he already did and Russian hackers are forcing you to question the vaccine! (Doubly-sarcastic).

There is probably a small subset of people who should not be inoculated due to underlying conditions. To the rest arguing about their freedom of choice and unknown “consequences”, is it really better to take a chance with COVID or with a vaccine needle prick?

Maybe a global marketing campaign is needed to make it cool: Don’t be a prick! Do your part and get one instead.

#155 Prince Polo on 12.20.20 at 6:38 pm

Dammit! “Probably orders of magnitude less was invested into a flu vaccine” is what I meant to write! Maybe less Sortilege Prestige next time I decide to comment….

#156 Elon Fanboy on 12.20.20 at 6:38 pm

“For the umpteenth time… vaccine lessens disease. That saves the healthcare system so everyone benefits. How is this hard to understand? – Garth”

Sure….but that’s not the reason say Employers may insist on vaccination.

The argument appears to be that the vaccinated can’t infect others (.e.g other employees).

That’s simply wrong.

#157 biochemist on 12.20.20 at 6:38 pm

“21 Theyounggreek on 12.20.20 at 5:17 pm

#70 biochemist

Can we agree that the vaccine is 95% effective at keeping people from having “serious illness” not “complete immunity”? So therefore 5% will still have “serious illness”.
I suggested that young healthy 20 year olds don’t need a vaccine because they already have better odds at not getting “serious illness”.
You argued some people are not good at math and that 2-3% of young healthy people would still get “serious illness”. If you are correct then 97-98% of young healthy 20 year olds will not get “serious illness”.
Is 97-98% odds of not getting “serious illness” better than 95% odds of not getting “serious illness”?”


Hard to say on the first point. It does seem to reduce cases both mild and severe, but the sample sizes are small so the uncertainty is huge. In the Pfizer trial, 162 in the placebo got COVID, nine of those severe. In the vaccinated group, eight got it, one severe. So, yes, the ratio of severe and non-severe appears about the same (6% vs. 12%, but n=1 so that second number again, has a huge uncertainty), but both outcomes are substantially rarer.

Their “better” odds of not getting severe illness are further reduced by getting the vaccine. Let’s say 3% of them are still hospitalized, but with a 20x fold reduction in overall circulation, that’s a lot of beds freed. One might be tempted to phaff off 9/21k severe cases, but bear in mind that in Canada we generally have about one ICU bed per 10,000 people.

The 95% reduction in infections and 97% non-severe cases refer to different phenomena. Imagine three cohorts of people (A) Uninfected (B) infected (C) severely sick. There are three ratios that can be determined from this. The progression of the disease can be represented by two arrows

A -> B -> C.

Basically, the vaccine reduces the arrow between A and B. THe severe complication rate, linking B and C, may not change, but both will be reduced by reduced infections.

Or, to put the Pfizer numbers in:
21,000 uninfected -> 162 infected -> 9 severe
Vaccinated
21,000 unifected -> 8 infected -> 1 severe.

So, yes, the 20 year old is better off getting the vaccine, and that’s purely for his own purposes, not even bothering to account for the societal benefits (which are in fact far greater, even if some of the libertarian tilt don’t want to admit it)

When I say people are bad at math, it’s because 3% sounds small. It’s one-in-thirty. Roll a pair of dice. You have a just-under 3% chance of rolling snake-eyes. Imagine if, every time you caught a cold, you had to roll those dice. Snake eyes, you lose. An inopportune sneeze on a crowded bus during the morning commute? Three of those people will be in hospital in a month, and one of them will be dead.

#158 Sail Away on 12.20.20 at 6:41 pm

#97 sailedaway on 12.20.20 at 4:27 pm

Who cares about that? Stock markets are up, I sold my house in BC for 2.3 millions.

Why should I care about employees? I don’t

————–

Haha

#159 BlogDog123 on 12.20.20 at 6:41 pm

We don’t let people into Canada with Tuberculosis, or unless treated for it. Same thing, we don’t let you move from A to B without preventing you from being a super spreader. Tough luck anti-vaxxers, you get ‘barred’ access to airplanes, gov’t offices, etc…

#160 Pandemic my rear on 12.20.20 at 6:42 pm

DELETED

#161 Bangers and Mash on 12.20.20 at 6:46 pm

#21 Dole Vita on 12.20.20 at 12:45 pm

“English variant of the virus, Italy blocks flights with Great Britain until 6 January.

_____________________________________________

This variant, also referred to as the “codswallop”, leaves those affected in a balls-up and knackered condition, often accompanied with bouts of collywobbles, leglessness and severe grogginess.

A vaccine is currently in development and is thought to be the bee’s knees. While many are truly gobsmacked and chuffed with how quickly it was developed and think this is the dog’s bollocks, anti-vax nutters have already denounced it to be a tad dodgy if not based on wonky science.

When asked about this, one of these gobby plonkers, who was obviously a wazzock and a tosser given that he was plastered and starkers, (certainly not a posh nor fit bloke by any standard), his only comment was “Blimey, what a cock-up and a load of rubbish! I absobloodylutely won’t be getting jabbed with that codswallop!”

#162 George S on 12.20.20 at 6:51 pm

People with no social responsibility. Little yellow bellied chickens that leech off society. Everyone else is supposed to make sacrifices for them. They think they are Trump.

I sense that many of the commenters on this blog don’t understand liability and liability insurance very well. The people that do “rule the world”, so to speak.

Take a look at OHS. Why do you think that all of a sudden out of nowhere you have to wear all that safety gear when not that long ago people would laugh at you? Liability issues and variable liability insurance (aka WCB) premiums.
I know of one employer that requires that all employees wear ice traction aids when outdoors on their property. If you are caught not wearing them you are fired. Liability issues.

In the end it will be workplace and personal liability that will settle this.

#163 Nonplused on 12.20.20 at 6:51 pm

#4 Ponzius Pilatus on 12.20.20 at 12:07 pm
“What is Zerohedge?”

An alt-right news aggregator. There is some crazy stuff on there but they also catch a lot of trends that the MSM doesn’t. You have to read it with a filter.

But it is basically click bait. I don’t think they actually spend much time worrying about anti-vax posts because they attract eyeballs. On the other hand they also report on progress of the vaccinations to date fairly accurately. In short they will post just about anything. And they covered the SolarWinds Hack with a lot less paranoia than CNN did.

So on the one hand they will post an article on how some senator said the SolarWinds Hack was a “Russian act of war!” and then immediately below post an article that argues the source of the hack is still unknown and these things are hard to prove. Something for everyone including TurnerNation.

#164 Rich from B.C. on 12.20.20 at 6:52 pm

#22 I’m poor on 12.20.20 at 12:52 pm
“The choice”

Is it better to be poor in Ontario or Alberta?

__________________________________

Neither, that’s why I am rich in B.C?

#165 rknusa on 12.20.20 at 6:53 pm

who cares about the anti-vaxers

when you get vaccinated you are protected from the deadly symptoms but you are still contagious and can pass on virus to another

once all those who want a vax are accommodated those that refuse will put their own lives at risk when restrictions on assembly are lifted

I say let them alone and let them suffer for their own foolishness,

in fact they should pay for their health care or a massive punitive fine in the tens of thousands of dollars if they end up in the hospital with COVID and no vax certificate

#166 Ponzius Pilatus on 12.20.20 at 6:56 pm

#5 Flop… on 12.20.20 at 12:08 pm
Was thinking the other day the last time I had a vaccine.

Probably around 18 years ago…….I think the vaccination card is under the bed in shoebox where men keep everything valuable.

I was traveling around the world had a trip planned to South America for six months.

Went to a travel clinic in Vancouver and got a yellow fever shot and probably a few others.

Didn’t even end up going…

M46BC
———————
With Global Warming, you’ll need those shots here soon,too.
Good forward thinking.
Phlop for President.

#167 Cici on 12.20.20 at 6:58 pm

I cannot believe that anyone would be so selfish as to even think about foregoing the vaccine. Or so cowardly to assume that older individuals should serve as guinea pigs, just because a few brave souls (all ladies too, I think) generously volunteered for the cause.

Sure, the vaccine could have some side effects, but so far the side effects of COVID-19 appear to be so much more dangerous.

Why wouldn’t you want to protect yourself, your family and neighbors from this horrible illness?

#168 Paul B on 12.20.20 at 7:06 pm

To Garth’s point about the danger of overwhelming the health system, and for those who wish to see the Ontario statistics of Covid ICU beds, you can look at the government website and even download the data..we are pretty close to the peak experienced back in April.

https://data.ontario.ca/dataset/status-of-covid-19-cases-in-ontario

#169 Mel on 12.20.20 at 7:12 pm

Something to think about
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHVb4Bd0EEA

#170 Sara on 12.20.20 at 7:16 pm

I’m curious to know how the Ontario wide lockdown starting Christmas Eve will actually prevent people from visiting relatives over the holidays. Personally, my holidays will be spent only with immediate family from the same household (and one daughter who recently moved out but lives alone in the same city).

I’m also curious why Ottawa (where I live) which currently has a low transmission rate and zero in ICU today is included in the lockdown. Not saying I agree or disagree, just not wondering why. Perhaps because even though Ottawa hospitals are doing relatively better, since they are part of the Ontario health care system and patients can be moved from hospital to hospital within the province, they are looking at overall numbers in relation to overall hospital capacity — thus Ottawa is included in the shutdown.

#171 waltersafety on 12.20.20 at 7:16 pm

I can imagine they won’t stop with vaccines to work or fly.
What if you need a vax to be allowed a balanced portfolio? GIC’s for the anti vaxxers?

#172 Sara on 12.20.20 at 7:18 pm

“Not saying I agree or disagree, just not wondering why.”

Too many nots. Should have wrote:
Not saying I agree or disagree, just wondering why.

#173 Hilroy on 12.20.20 at 7:21 pm

what if the provax’s get the needle to build immunity and the antivax’s get the actual virus to build immunity? they would have to agree to self-isolate and forgo any medical treatment.

#174 Nonplused on 12.20.20 at 7:24 pm

#82 Stan Brooks on 12.20.20 at 3:39 pm
Get a better lawyer. – Garth

Sadly I have to disagree, that constitutes breach of employment, a legal contract, and can not be forced without concessions by the employer.

——————————

I’m going to side with Garth on this one. Employers do not ever require “cause” to fire someone unless they intend to do so with no severance. So as soon as the first company loses a big court case because someone died and well “deep pockets” then all of the risk management departments all across the land are going to be a buzzing about what to do about the problem. So you’ll get your minimum legal severance and be told that “there isn’t a good fit for you in our new organizational structure”.

Anyone that has ever been laid off before knows that the company doesn’t need a reason other than they wish to see the back side of you walking away. You may get a nice parting cash gift, but that is it. You can try a “wrongful dismissal” suit but what you are really arguing about there is the size of the severance, it ain’t going to get you your job back.

As for stores, stadiums, airplanes, and access to other countries, well, you technically don’t have any rights to enter private property without permission of the owner or any other country without their permission. Otherwise “No shirt, no shoes, no service” wouldn’t have ever been a thing. My favorite was, “Men: No shirt, no shoes, no service. Women: No shirt – free drinks.”

#175 Big Jake on 12.20.20 at 7:25 pm

#51 Tommy on 12.20.20 at 2:21 pm
The term “anti-vaxxer” creates confusion and division. It’s a noun used to identify a person who is skeptical of some or all vaccines. It’s a catch-all term encompassing everyone, even those.who support vaccines in general but just may have concerns about a specific vaccine. You’re either an anti-vaxxer or not. There’s no in between, no nuance. It’s a term designed to shut down discussion and questions. I think that the fact the word is a noun is very problematic because it reduces an individual person who has all sorts of identity characteristics to being an embodiment of a single opinion. Can’t someone have an opinion, or even just concerns, without it overriding everything else about that person?! It’s actually a form of identity politics. You’re not just skeptical about vaccines, you’re an “anti-vaxxer”. It’s a form of identity politics based on fear and shame.

_________________________________________

How about “racist”? Is that “nuanced” enough for you?

#176 Cat's meow on 12.20.20 at 7:30 pm

#54 Stealth on 12.20.20 at 2:25 pm
Garth is correct.

I personally don’t like it either however You will be vaccinated.
If you believe you have any rights around this you are mistaken. All you need to do is look at history for example you can get mobilized and sent to perish like people have many times before….

Same thing everywhere else on the planet every government, no need to go anywhere. Read on what emergency powers federal governments have and the answer is all, anytime, anything.

The sooner we realize this the sooner we can get the pandemic behind us and get back to what our lizard brain likes. (Vacations, booze, instant gratification, rock and roll, etc.)

With utmost respect of course and no intent to offend just pure reality.

Thank you.

With utmost respect of course and no intent to offend just pure reality… all those things are available to me right now!

Why would I want to ruin that?

#177 Ponzius Pilatus on 12.20.20 at 7:32 pm

To those who think the virus is just a nuisance, look to Great Britain which is being cut off from the world.
Put on the friking mask and get the jab when it’s your turn, for Christ’s sake.

#178 millmech on 12.20.20 at 7:32 pm

People,
You get the shot and three weeks later you get the booster shot and wait one week for total immunity, so a total of four weeks then no more masks, social distancing, travel restrictions, waiting in line ups, church restrictions you can go where ever and do what ever.
Four weeks to total freedom a small price to pay.

#179 N on 12.20.20 at 7:35 pm

Talking of saving the healthcare system – Fauci urges people to wear masks even if family members get vaccinated.

The leadership seems to see things in gray.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/public-global-health/530994-fauci-urges-people-to-wear-masks-even-if-family?

#180 Ponzius Pilatus on 12.20.20 at 7:38 pm

#164 nonplus
Sorry, did not think I had to flag my post as sarcastic.

#181 Cici on 12.20.20 at 7:39 pm

#16 Jimpoff

They take it for to fight parasites.

From what I see, it does have good effects if taken early enough and can reduce the length of illness, but I don’t think that’s good enough to sufficiently slow the impact at this level of the pandemic. Could help, but we still do definitely need a vaccine to initiate herd immunity and free up the hospitals for cancer, cardiac and other patients.

https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)32506-6/fulltext

#182 KLNR on 12.20.20 at 7:41 pm

@ #153 waltersafety on 12.20.20 at 6:32 pm
“The anti vax movement has been fueled by politics”
And the pro vax fueled by billionaires, uncomprimised scientists, unimpeachable media and transparent governments that have never lied to their citizens before?

You should top up your tinfoil hat supply whilst Walmart is still open.

#183 Bill on 12.20.20 at 7:43 pm

#147 crowdedelevatorfartz on 12.20.20 at 6:22 pm

Man I swear the powers that be are pushing this dependency thing.
Typically a productive human is a happy one….gives one a sense of self worth and accomplishment..
Merry Christmas Crowdie and all…!

#184 Wrk.dover on 12.20.20 at 7:44 pm

I cried so hard when against my wishes they gave me that shoulder scar vaccine in 1959, that they gave me another just below it, just in case the first jab missed.

I’m grown up and ready for the 2021 vaccine.

Bring it!

#185 Nonplused on 12.20.20 at 7:46 pm

#108 Anonymous on 12.20.20 at 4:45 pm
Garth: “No mumps, measles, chickenpox of polio today because those who came before you did exactly this. Man up. – Garth”

Very true, fully agree.

So why aren’t those vaccines, in addition to influenza, HPV and many other mandatory under the same ethical and legal rational?

————————-

I’m pretty sure they still vax the kids for the first 3 but maybe not polio because it was assumed to be extinct in the wild.

As for influenza, no big deal and shots are free if you want one. I can get one at the Co-Op. HPV vaccinations are now readily available in schools and I think it is considered more of a STD, although not treatable with antibiotics.

#186 Ponzius Pilatus on 12.20.20 at 7:46 pm

#140 Tron Light on 12.20.20 at 5:56 pm
It really is unbelievable how many people think “we’re all gonna die” on here!

How many times does it need to be repeated? This is about lessening disease so the health care system can function for everyone and not be COVID-clogged. – Garth
——————
Garth, your blog,
But maybe time to ditch this guy and bring back Sailo.

#187 Sydneysider on 12.20.20 at 7:47 pm

One of my relatives who works in a UK care home had the vaccine the other day with no ill effects. But two of her colleagues collapsed afterwards. One during the 20 minute waiting period, the other while she was shopping. One of them is said to have a penicillin allergy, although that might not be relevant to what happened.

You can understand why people might hesitate. Trying to shoehorn them into the clinic by labelling them as enemies of the people (as this blog did the other day) will do more harm than good. More subtle persuasion is needed (e.g. your name goes into a lucky draw for a dinner date with Mr Trudeau or a $100K prize).

#188 Nonplused on 12.20.20 at 7:48 pm

#181 Ponzius Pilatus on 12.20.20 at 7:38 pm
#164 nonplus
Sorry, did not think I had to flag my post as sarcastic.

Gave me a jumping off point though.

#189 Theyounggreek on 12.20.20 at 7:50 pm

#158 biochemist

No offence but I think you’re mistaken. In your
A->B->C example the vaccine as I understand it affects the B->C variable. Again as I understand it this vaccine does not protect you from getting the virus, only protects you from having “serious illness”. I think this is where a lot of the confusion is.

See,
https://nationalpost.com/health/not-going-to-end-the-pandemic-why-those-hopeful-vaccine-trial-results-are-not-all-that-they-seem

#190 CalgaryCarGuy on 12.20.20 at 7:56 pm

Re #4 by Ponzius Pilatus
What is Zero Hedge?
——————————————————————-
Zero Hedge is actually an interesting site. As a certified news junkie it is on my bookmarked list of a good number of sites I check daily. It is a right wing site and like Nonplused said in a post above you need to use a filter to look through their different headlined articles. Having said that, Zero Hedge has amazed me a number of times where they were the very first to report something. They also often provide a non-typical point of view. Watch out for the comment sections though. It’s pretty rough. Still though, if you’re brave enough there is good information and great links to be found in those comment sections if you’re brave enough to browse it.

#191 Cici on 12.20.20 at 7:58 pm

@Hamish43

Where are you getting your information from when you said “2.Young people don’t need to take it since their risk is so low”??

New study from our provincial health institute says younger people are more at risk. Especially kids 5 years and under.

Those with any underlying comorbidity (including anemia and hypertension) are at greater risk of dying from COVID, but I don’t think you can say that any part of the population is “low risk” with a virus of this magnitude, especially since there seems to be troubling long-term effect on organs as well.

Do take into consideration that many people suffer from hypertension and that a majority of women and girls who menstruate are anemic at some point every single month.

“Chez les cas confirmés de la COVID-19 vivant à domicile, l’effet relatif du cumul de comorbidités sur
le risque d’hospitalisation augmente pour chaque comorbidité additionnelle et cet effet est plus élevé
chez les plus jeunes (figure A.2). ”

https://www.inspq.qc.ca/sites/default/files/publications/3082-impact-comorbidites-risque-deces-covid19.pdf

#192 Jack on 12.20.20 at 7:58 pm

Why can’t it be a choice? Those that don’t take the vaccine might get sick or die… those that do take it should be fine. I don’t see the issue. Are they worried about mutation?

#193 Phylis on 12.20.20 at 8:04 pm

Someone is finished quarantining!

#194 Paul on 12.20.20 at 8:11 pm

My Nephew flew in from university the other day, his flight was delayed. As he was originally booked with Porter but they have shut down till February so he booked with Air Canada. We thought the delay was for social distancing ect. But no the planes were under booked so instead of have two flights that day Air Canada combined the two flight into one evening flight.
The plane was packed not one empty seat, plus we could not go into the terminal you know Covid. So no restaurants, shopping ect but pack the people in like Sardines on a plane.

#195 Legal Beagle on 12.20.20 at 8:13 pm

#65 Stan Brooks on 12.20.20 at 2:47 pm
That determination can not be legal.

The same logic can be applied to people who smoke, drink occasionally, have children, have allergies, for example under the pretext that they represent bigger customer hazard.

When I drink, I occasionally have children. That is a huge hazard. Every time I have children, it infringes on my freedoms. Therefore, I will sue the alcohol manufacturers.

#196 short horses on 12.20.20 at 8:14 pm

Great post, Garth. Thanks for sharing this useful update on vaccinations and employment.

I’m sure it will still be interesting how this unfolds, and I sincerely question whether US courts will take a similar view (the US Supreme Court seems to be inclining towards a view that the religious rights of the few outweighs the health & safety of the many, plus the red states are wild cards). I don’t think Canadian courts would go so far, but 2020 has been nothing if not surprising.

#197 Blaze on 12.20.20 at 8:15 pm

DELETED

#198 Cici on 12.20.20 at 8:17 pm

One more thing, the German government, in cooperatio with UE experts, has announced that the current COVID vaccines ARE effective against the new strain:

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/german-health-minister-says-vaccines-effective-against-new-coronavirus-strain-2341328

Just one more good argument for rapid vaccination to slow this thing down before any more new and more dangerous strains develop.

#199 Dutchy on 12.20.20 at 8:22 pm

Several years ago (about 60) I was politely advised by a Canadian immigration official that without a Smallpox Vaccination (live-virus vaccine) I would never be reading this blog.
Now, with 52 people infected in my RPA apartment block I hope to survive long enough to become eligible to get the much safer mRNA injection to protect me from this horrible virus asssssssap.

#200 Sheesh on 12.20.20 at 8:26 pm

#145 Job#1 on 12.20.20 at 6:09 pm

This is because you know for a fact that the only experts qualified to adjudicate these issues are employed by government, pharmaceutical corp.s and regulatory agencies. All dissenting expert opinions can be summarily rejected because they’re all quacks.
…..
No, the only experts qualified to adjudicate these issues are those whose expertise is in the area in question, regardless who they are employed by. That would be people with advanced knowledge in infectious disease, virology, and immunology in this case.
Cranks like this guy are people who use their credentials in other fields to weigh in on matters that they do not have in depth knowledge of.

#201 Scarf Murmur on 12.20.20 at 8:34 pm

The powers that seen the rise of China and reached the following conclusion:

Personal and political freedom can be unchained from economic freedom.

The end of liberty is upon us. Through fear, coercion and government edicts.

#202 Well travelled on 12.20.20 at 8:38 pm

Great post Garth. Totally support your thesis on the responsibility of all Canadians to Vax-up for the good of everyone. If some people choose not to participate, it is entirely reasonable that they accept the consequences of choosing to accept a life with reduced opportunities.

#203 You know val on 12.20.20 at 8:40 pm

The politicians should have gotten their act together and stopped the fake news from ever entering main street. Instead and as usual, they sided with big business
and let the cheraide play out. Games up now. People are feed up being lied to. They simply don’t trust much of anything nowadays, its all suck and blow and smoke and mirrors bs. Honest hard working simple people under constant attack from all kinds of crap being constantly thrown at us.People have a reason to be skeptical, sure they want to be safe from covid. It’s the Trust factor they have to inoculate first. Good luck with that one.

#204 TheDood on 12.20.20 at 8:43 pm

#26 Theyounggreek on 12.20.20 at 1:10 pm
Sorry Garth but this makes no sense. The vaccine doesn’t stop you from getting the virus. They don’t know whether it stops you from transmitting the virus but you’re going to force people to take it. A healthy 20 year old has a minuscule chance of having a negative outcome. Why vaccinate young healthy people? Makes no sense. Vaccinate the old and vulnerable, then open up the economy. Let the virus rip through the younger population. This will allow young healthy people develop antibodies the natural way. In the mean time continue vaccinating anyone who wants a vaccine and we’ll be at herd immunity by summer.
________________________________________

Maybe because the virus kills healthy young people too?

#205 Cici on 12.20.20 at 8:45 pm

#193 Jack

Of course they’re worried about mutation (haven’t you heard about the new strain in England yet?) but they are also worried about the fact that denial doesn’t make you immune.

In other words, every person who doesn’t get vaccinated (Garth’s examples above show that’s a majority % of people) will keep spreading it to others who will get sick and continue to crowd hospitals that are already over recommended capacities.

And yo #50 Buddy, think about what that means for people who are trying to get treated for cancer or heart problems and other illnesses. The more Covid cases, the less care and hospital space for others who need it.

I found out today that my neighbour, a young healthy guy with no pre-existing health conditions, and who just ran a marathon last summer, was recently diagnosed with cancer and is undergoing chemotherapy.

His immune system is going to be down for months due to the treatments. As a result, he can’t be vaccinated until he is well. Which means that once he has beaten the cancer, he still will have to take enormous precautions tuntil his immune system has fully recovered.

But how can he protect himself if 55% or more of the population is pretending that COVID’s a nothingburger and are intent to keep running around and spreading it?

And he’s one of the lucky ones who are getting treatment. In my province, lots of cancer patients are suffering without care (in other words, being left to die), because COVID is out of control and taking up too many heathcare resources.

Just do the right thing. Please!

#206 Ottawan on 12.20.20 at 8:45 pm

I’m in for the Vax,

Cowards, make way!

#207 Steerage science on 12.20.20 at 8:45 pm

So which one of you crazies is driving the vaccine from hell RV around….

https://recorder.ca/news/local-news/anti-vaxxers-bring-message-to-brockville

#208 Just the vax, ma'am! on 12.20.20 at 8:46 pm

#70 biochemist on 12.20.20 at 2:55 pm
“26 Theyounggreek on 12.20.20 at 1:10 pm

Incidentally, the whole thing about 20 year olds not having negative outcomes is a misconception. They don’t die as often, but they are still prone to severe disease – the break is that they survive hospitalization, not that they don’t get hospitalized. It still puts circa 2-3% of 20-somehings in hospital (and our response has always been as much about keeping hospitalizations down as death)

I would agree, except for the fact that your numbers are off by a factor of 2X to 3X.
More like 1%. But hey, I know the rules of this blog … stick to the narrative whether you need to fudge the data or not!

P.S> Please tell me you weren’t one of the biochemists involved with creating the vaccine ….

#209 yvr_lurker on 12.20.20 at 8:52 pm

#175 As for stores, stadiums, airplanes, and access to other countries, well, you technically don’t have any rights to enter private property without permission of the owner or any other country without their permission.

——————————————–
Reflecting on this futher, our society relies to a large extent on an honour system. Unless we are going to be assigned with an identity card where our proof of vaccination is listed as a number on the card in a searchable data base by employers and for that matter scanners when we try to enter a store, the verification of proof of vaccine will largely be on an honour system. For those who are strongly opposed to the vax, but want to keep their jobs, the dark-market forces of capitalism will be making fake documents. The implication of Garth’s post is that taking the vaccine is the certification of immunity. Although the vaccine is an important step forward, the level of efficacy will only be known much later, and I predict there will be some surprises along this journey. If someone presents a vax certificate at work, and gets sick is it because the immunity lapsed, they had a forged document (because there is no way that a free society will permit employers to have a searchable database), or they were in the unlucky 6%? Impossible to tell. Likewise sitting in an airplane, one will never know whether that person next to you in the middle seat did not present a forged document when boarding.

Unless we want to live like in China where an identity card with all sorts of info must be carried at all times, and where one is hauled out of their house after the dreaded knock on the door by public authorities and shoved into quarantine at the whim of the officer, it is the honour system that we live with for better or not in western democracies in most aspects of our lives. Honor to pick up after your dog on someone’s lawn, not to abscond with $$ from managing revenue from a charity tree lot or amateur hockey fund, not to porch surf packages in your neighbourhod, not to put poison meat in a tree well in a wooded area where dogs can run free because you hate dogs. I had to deal with latter his one 2 weeks ago, when two Labs (one of my own) I was walking in the UBC endowment land found something “interesting” in a tree well. Thankfully I reacted quick enough when I noticed their interest. I took a sample and had it tested…. rat poison….People who do this type of abomination are the cruelest of the cruel, but they are unfortunately out there…

We live by an honour system….. that being said, I do hope that the required numbers get the jab, but any “enforcement” of it will be largely futile and I would be strongly opposed to have to be in a searchable database to get access to a store. There will be many many stores that will be desperately needing customers to cough up (pardon the pun) hard earned cash on whatever non-essential stuff they peddle once the situation gets better…

#210 Anonymous on 12.20.20 at 8:53 pm

#186 Nonplused:

“I’m pretty sure they still vax the kids for the first 3 but maybe not polio because it was assumed to be extinct in the wild.”

Yes, they are still all included in our childhood vaccinations (including Polio, which is not eradicated globally). But they are not *mandatory* in order for a child to go to school, or for an adult to go to work. And this is not a theoretical risk. Measles outbreaks have been happening since the anti-vexxers began to gain ground.
If you argue that the risk of infection with those is not as great as covid than this is a circular argument: it is only not as big *because* we have widespread vaccinations. The R’ of measeles is the highest of any knows infectious disease, and ALL of those childhood vaccinations have a higher R’ than Covid19.
Look at the table at the top of the article:
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_reproduction_number).

So, in order to maintain a safe workplace we must have mandatory vaccinations for all of those, shouldn’t we?

Places that do not vacciante see outbrakes:

(https://www.who.int/news/item/12-11-2020-worldwide-measles-deaths-climb-50-from-2016-to-2019-claiming-over-207-500-lives-in-2019)

—————————–
“As for influenza, no big deal”

First of all: influenza not a big deal? Clearly you do not work in healthcare.

From Health Canada: (https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/flu-influenza/health-professionals.html)

Influenza and pneumonia are ranked among the top 10 leading causes of death in Canada.

Each year in Canada, it is estimated that influenza causes approximately:

12,200 hospitalizations
3,500 deaths

And remember: For influenza we have over 100 years of experience and developping natural immunity, effective vaccines and treatments, great understanding of the disease, and it is still among the top 10 killers.
Influenza is a big deal *every year* in ICUs across the country.

———————-
Now to the meat of your argument:
“shots are free if you want one. I can get one at the Co-Op”

OK, shots for Covid will be free too. The discussion is about mandatory vaccination. About not being allowed to participate in the workforce if you do not vaccinate.

Currently, according to StatsCan, about 1/3 of the population under 65 gets vaccinated for the flu.
(https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1310009625)

If Influenza causes 3,500 death a year AFTER we already have treatments, vaccines etc, wouldn’t an employer have a duty to protect all its employees and customers by requiring mandatory flu vaccinations from it’s employees? In what way is this different from protecting the employees and customers from Covid?

Currently as a society we accept that a disease with a vaccination rate of 30% and with good understanding and treatments will kill 3,500 people every year. (by the way, significantly higher mortality rate for the young population from Flu than Covid, about 30 death per year for age group 0-19, compared with 2 for Covid).
Why don’y we require full vaccination for this disease?

What do you think will happen when we reach 60% vaccination for Covid in the over-65 population and 30% for the under-65 (similar to Flu vaccination rates)?
What if we see 3,500 death from Covid per year?
Why would we continue to ask for mandatory vaccination for Covid but not the Flu?

Sorry, the idea of mandatory vaccination this is an emotional reaction to a current crisis, not a sober analysis of the risk in the context of our societal historical acceptence.

This is also disregarding the fact the the vaccine is 95% eficacy!!! This is amazing! This is even a stronger support for an individual mandate. If you take this vaccine you can be pretty darn sure you have good protection from even getting Covid. And if you do happen to be in the 5% who get it, your disease trajectory is better and mortality is even lower. This is a great support for *not* forcing others to vaccinate in order to protect yourself. The idea of requiring vaccinations in order to protect the other is actually true for…. The Flu vaccine, with an eficacy of 40%-70%. In this case even if you get vaccinated you still depend on the other…

Faulty logic all around us.
But as we know, this is not about logic…

#211 down and out on 12.20.20 at 8:55 pm

Years ago my boss corralled us into the lunch room ,bell sounded work time over but we could not leave CDC from USA showed up and local medical officer of health roll up your sleeve we are taking a blood sample no ifs ands or buts ,union leader said listen to these people .Windsor Ontario Pontiac fever outbreak .

#212 45north on 12.20.20 at 8:56 pm

moral ethical imperative

– nobody can get a vaccine right now
– for the next six months, there’s going be a line
– during which time the spread will steadily slow
– and the side effects will be better known

for the next six months, the moral ethical imperative won’t be imperative

#213 BC Bruce on 12.20.20 at 8:57 pm

#74 Alberta Ed on 12.20.20 at 3:09 pm
At least the anti-vaxers will improve the gene pool.

At least their deaths will be quick …. Albertans, on the other hand, will continue to die a slow death from a million cuts (budget cuts, pay cuts, social service cuts, oil cuts) … and whine all the way to their graves in the process!

#214 Dave from St.Thomas on 12.20.20 at 9:14 pm

Hi Garth.

Great post on the subject.

My Mom (late 80’s) passed away in early March at the start of the pandemic…cancer in the early stages was the mitigating factor in her case. Her mind was still as sharp as a whip…no Alzheimers, Dementia, Parkinson’s or any of the other mind-debilitating diseases, and she enjoyed and celebrated her life accomplishments almost until the end.

What is it they say? “The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.” So it was with her.

For our whole lives our family was vaccinated against anything and everything that came along….Mom was always the first to sign us kids up for all the vaccines against communicable diseases that were so prevelant during the early 1950’s and onwards.

If Mom was still here and read what the anti-vaxxers were posting , she would first educate them about the terrors of the polio epidemic, and then continue on with what happens when you contract measles, mumps, rubella, and chicken pox, etc…

Then she would box their ears and tell them to act their age and not their shoe size!

Regards.

#215 Stranger on 12.20.20 at 9:15 pm

Great post, Garth!
Indeed – bash those antivaxxers!
Also, as you are in the risk group, please make sure you take the vaccine – we need your insight and wisdom. Do it for us plebes.
Thank you!

#216 Ancient and Venerable Ron on 12.20.20 at 9:16 pm

Agree 100% Garth ! The Vax is our best hope.

#217 Jebb Bezos on 12.20.20 at 9:22 pm

#97 sailedaway on 12.20.20 at 4:27 pm

Who cares about that? Stock markets are up, I sold my house in BC for 2.3 millions.

Why should I care about employees? I don’t

Now, that’s the attitude… you’ll make a fine boomer one day! You seemed to have forgotten the mantra … “we’re all in this together”.

#218 Neo on 12.20.20 at 9:29 pm

We are trying to save the health care system. Duh. – Garth

Isn’t vaccinating health care professionals, LTC staff and residents first accomplishing this?

People over 70 are 14% of the cases in Canada but 55% of the hospitalizations and 90% of the deaths.

If this vaccine actually works and eliminates 90% of the deaths and 55% of the hospitalizations taking the high risk group off the table then what are we even talking about here?

The asymptomatic crowd that will be asymptomatic regardless of whether they take the vaccine or not and were never dying or requiring hospitalization?

#219 Jim on 12.20.20 at 9:36 pm

#28, Please Garth, respectfully give us your definitions of “cowardice” ,as well as stupidity.

#220 nonmedical expert on 12.20.20 at 9:58 pm

You have no constitutional right to make the workplace unsafe. You lose. – Garth

The vaccine has not been shown to prevent transmission. Pfizer clearly states this. Therefore, being vaccinated does not make the workplace safer. Therefore Garth, you lose.

Wearing a mask would do infinitely more to make the workplace safer than being vaccinated with the current vaccines. Therefore an unvaccinated mask wearer is less selfish and of more help to others than an unmasked vaccinated person.

#221 KG on 12.20.20 at 10:02 pm

Let us see if you can answer #26.

Also: “The anti-vax movement has been fueled by politics”.
We are not anti-vaxx, we are anti-stupidity.

#222 The chosen one on 12.20.20 at 10:03 pm

#103 Regjeg on 12.20.20 at 4:40 pm
To Justin T:

Are you sure that every single ingredient in the chicken soup or hot dogs or Pad Thai or spaghetti sauce or ice cream or ______ (fill in the blank) that you consume every day is 100% safe for you?

If so, how have you achieved that level of certainty?

If not, why are you settling for less than 100% safety in the countless items you put into your body every day, but requiring it in a one time, double dose vaccine?

XOXOXOX

Maybe that’s because
… hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people ingested these products before he did without issue, or
… it was his decision and his decision only , or
… these items weren’t injected into his bloodstream, or
… these items weren’t a new variety having never been on the market anywhere in the world, or
… these items went through a rigorous, unrushed testing protocol, or
… perhaps he doesn’t take medical advice from people who state that it is a one time vaccine, when clearly the manufacturer states “it still remains to be seen what the long-term immune response will be after vaccination”.

Or better yet, as Garth would say … maybe he’s just a coward!

#223 Kate on 12.20.20 at 10:07 pm

One trusts Health Canada the same way one trusts the government. You’ve been there. Does our government do what is best for constituents? No. You criticize them all the time. Why the healthcare government sponsored directly by Big Pharma is different and why do you trust them?

#224 Barb on 12.20.20 at 10:07 pm

California hospitals are way over capacity, some at 270%.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/california-hospitals-overwhelmed-i-m-not-going-to-sugarcoat-this-98127941584

And an ICU nurse admitted her father passed away due to COVID in November.

Will the sad news ever end…

#225 Pete from St. Cesaire on 12.20.20 at 10:12 pm

DELETED

#226 LockdownsAreForJails on 12.20.20 at 10:15 pm

The reason that we’re continuing to see a spike in cases is that lockdowns and masks are ineffective. It’s pure folly and superstition to think that through heavy-handed government intervention we can micromanage people’s behaviour to control a virus.

The resulting chaos is the antidote to hyper-rational materialism through the wrath of God and a reminder that man is powerless before Him.

#227 Hilroy on 12.20.20 at 10:19 pm

Re #4 by Ponzius Pilatus
What is Zero Hedge?

The Comments section is neither Left nor Right – it’s more like a portal that reveals dingdongs from another dimension.

#228 Tron Light on 12.20.20 at 10:20 pm

“How many times does it need to be repeated? This is about lessening disease so the health care system can function for everyone and not be COVID-clogged. – Garth”

I would say that there is a fundamental problem with the way we operate hospitals. Most hospitals in Ontario operate at 95% capacity and there are more than a few that consistently operate above 100% capacity. A bad flu season will overwhelm the hospitals. Isn’t that why they say to get a flu shot?

If our system wasn’t so flawed to begin with maybe we wouldn’t be going through all of this now.

#229 KG on 12.20.20 at 10:23 pm

You may have noticed the pro-vaxxers comments are new entrants in your scene. Tells you something? Look for opinion from your old flock and you will see the skewed perception tried to be formed.

#230 Ace of Space on 12.20.20 at 10:35 pm

#131 SoggyBrain on 12.20.20 at 5:43 pm
#83 John on 12.20.20 at 3:45 pm

This doesn’t make any sense. Who are unvaxxed people a danger to? People who took the shot? If that’s the case, then what was the point of taking it?
*******************
Pay attention, the vaccine is not 100% effective, and not everyone can take it (allergies, autoimmune deficiencies, chemo etc)

Therefore a very significant portion of pro-vaccine people are in danger from anti-vaxxers.
More than 1 in 20, and that’s assuming the vaccine lasts forever.

Back to the drawing board, SoggyBrain … by all accounts, it would appear that people who receive the vaccine can still spread the virus. So how is not taking a vaccine any worse?

“In the recently published study on the clinical trial results for the AstraZeneca vaccine, the efficacy against asymptomatic infection was just 27 per cent — suggesting those vaccinated generally can still transmit the disease”

Perhaps you and biochemist should get together for coffee one morning … don’t worry about taking your masks! You won’t be needing them.

#231 WiseGuy on 12.20.20 at 10:42 pm

First of all, let’s talk about the Pfizer vaccine clinical trials.
44,000 vaccinated
95% of adverse events occur in the first 24-48 hours
97% of all long term adverse events occur in the first 2 months.
This vaccine was studied for 6 months and all safety standards were passed with flying colours of which any other vaccine would need to pass. The FDA, Health Canada and similar organizations allowed rolling submissions, meaning the company didn’t have to wait months or years for government to get off their ass to approve them to start the next phase in the clinical trials.

It also had 95% efficacy! Phenomenal.

Now, Moderna has much of the same, all good news and a great vaccine. In 2-3 months we might have 10 companies approved.

On top of those first 44,000 in the clinical trials, there are now hundreds of thousands around the world being immunized! Great stuff!

Not to judge and there are many successful people with community college degrees, but I find for the most part, it is the uneducated and community college individuals that are anti-mask, anti-vaccine, etc.

You don’t need a University degree to be successful, but I
It certainly helps to have one to think rationally and have critical thinking skills.

You just can’t smarten up stupid!

#232 Huh? on 12.20.20 at 10:43 pm

#51 Tommy on 12.20.20 at 2:21 pm
The term “anti-vaxxer” creates confusion and division. It’s a noun used to identify a person who is skeptical of some or all vaccines. It’s a catch-all term encompassing everyone, even those.who support vaccines in general but just may have concerns about a specific vaccine. You’re either an anti-vaxxer or not. There’s no in between, no nuance. It’s a term designed to shut down discussion and questions. I think that the fact the word is a noun is very problematic because it reduces an individual person who has all sorts of identity characteristics to being an embodiment of a single opinion. Can’t someone have an opinion, or even just concerns, without it overriding everything else about that person?! It’s actually a form of identity politics. You’re not just skeptical about vaccines, you’re an “anti-vaxxer”. It’s a form of identity politics based on fear and shame.

————————————–

No that’s simply asking too much because the same people who instantaneously label you an antivaxxer for having valid concerns on a vaccine developed in 90 days are the same lunatics that will label you a racist, a sexist, a xenophobe, an islamaphobe or a misogynist for trying to have and open discussion on those topics as well.

See how that works? Too hard for them to have open and intelligent discourse.

#233 SunShowers on 12.20.20 at 10:46 pm

All of these people insisting that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms would allow them to exercise their personal liberties to the detriment of the health and well being of others should ask themselves whether the Charter would protect a Jehova’s Witness doctor refusing to perform a life-saving blood transfusion for a patient on the basis that it would violate the doctor’s Charter rights, as blood transfusions go against his religion.

There’s your answer. The right of other people to not be sick trumps your right to be scared of needles.

#234 Karlhungus on 12.20.20 at 10:54 pm

Geez I used to think the average IQ of blog dogs was pretty high buy these anti vax , Freedom yah! comments make me believe that these people are terrible at cost/benefit analysis.

#235 Rural Rick on 12.20.20 at 10:55 pm

Thanks for the savvy comments on the corona virus O Great Bearded One. Your patience and perseverance is magnificent.

Blessings to you and yours

#236 Trudi Woods on 12.20.20 at 11:23 pm

I have a way to many loved ones on the front line to enter this debate…however…I have never been known to keep my mouth closed when push comes to shove…put an Effing mask on…listen to the elected governments of the country…Jesus

#237 nope on 12.20.20 at 11:30 pm

Seeing so many still asleep.. I worry very much about the future. Garth should be posting sheep instead of dogs on all of his posts..

#238 G-Unit on 12.20.20 at 11:33 pm

Antivaxxers live in a paranoid reality where every government announcement is now actually part of a super duper secret hidden agenda to kill or harm us.

They talk about their own personal freedom to choose but stop short of an employer’s freedom to protect their business. Freedom works both ways! Yes, they have the right to refuse the vaccine, but then so does a company’s owner have the right to refuse who gets to work in their company – everyone wins right? Freedom has prevailed for both sides!

Get vaccinated. Stop believing random Facebook posts. Stop being selfish. Stop being scared.

#239 IHCTD9 on 12.20.20 at 11:38 pm

Everyone is too agitated tonight.

Mix up your favourite drink, grab your headphone, and give a listen to Luke Combs new one, “six feet apart”, guaranteed you’ll like it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sayh8ZASxk8

#240 Huh? on 12.20.20 at 11:42 pm

What drives the anti-vax crowd? Fear. Seems cowardly, no? Garth

—————————–

Haven’t missed a day’s work from the beginning of this Wuhan Virus mess. I go out each and every day to earn a living for my family that includes an 8 month old daughter, my elderly mother and my disabled older brother. I don’t fear the virus one bit and neither does my 82 year old mother who’s pretty fed up with the whole thing. Yes an 82 year old little Sicilian widow has 10 times the balls of most of the kiss asses on this blog. She has lived a great life and survived the Second World War unlike you wusses.

Maybe the cowards are the ones hiding in some shack in the middle of nowhere who fear 99% + odds of survival while they spew all kinds of fear mongering, misinformation and shaming from behind their keyboards.

#241 The West on 12.20.20 at 11:50 pm

The popcorn over here is delicious

#242 Nonplused on 12.21.20 at 12:00 am

#211 Anonymous on 12.20.20 at 8:53 pm
#186 Nonplused:

I am not going to copy your comment because it is kind of long, people can go back to it.

You raise a lot of good points.

When I said the flu is no big deal I meant it never has been for me, and every time they release a new jab they miss the variant that causes the most problems that year. I’m not sure covid is exactly the same.

I’m not sure the “mumps, measles, chicken pox, and polio” (let’s call it “the big 4” from now on) vaccines are voluntary. I think it takes some doing to opt out and most people don’t.

Anyway, as I said in a previous comment, I am not going to push to the front of the line, I’ll let my dental hygienist get it first. But after she’s got it for me, I’ll get it for her. It’s sort of like merging in traffic. You are an arse if you don’t let those people in. Even the slow-assed student drivers.

#243 saskatoon on 12.21.20 at 12:00 am

cowardice is doing exactly as you are told.

#244 Morrey on 12.21.20 at 12:07 am

if you have been labeled a candyass libtard eunuch consider it a badge of honour.

there are so many nut jobs out there. Sometimes i fear for our race. or there is very well a split in our gene pool. Home Sapiens have a splinter race called Homo Stupido

#245 Poop deck on 12.21.20 at 12:08 am

#215 Dave from St.Thomas on 12.20.20 at 9:14 pm
…..

If Mom was still here and read what the anti-vaxxers were posting , she would first educate them about the terrors of the polio epidemic, and then continue on with what happens when you contract measles, mumps, rubella, and chicken pox, etc…

Then she would box their ears and tell them to act their age and not their shoe size!

Regards

———————————————————

Yes, and if my mother was still here, she would offer your mother a cigarette and show her all of the advertisements back in the 1950s/60s in the magazines and on TV that glorified smoking and made it appear sexy … many of which were endorsed by doctors.

“Many physicians still doubted that there was a wide-spread connection between smoking and disease. Instead it was believed that only certain individuals’ health was affected by smoking; it was thought to be a case-by-case situation.”

So, what’s the moral of the story …. trust, but verify!

#246 Nonplused on 12.21.20 at 12:25 am

#210 yvr_lurker on 12.20.20 at 8:52 pm

Again I am not going to copy your post because people can scroll back, but you also raise good points.

However I would counter “what happened to the honor system”? Freedom is one thing, being dishonorable is another.

Nobody comes in my house without permission, unless it is the police serving a warrant. And I’ve never had a warrant. But I probably wouldn’t argue with the police even if they were at the wrong address. We can straighten it out later. So that seems like a tangent but think Costco. They do not have to let you in. They didn’t even let you in before without a membership card. Just go try and buy some things at Costco without flashing your membership card and see how that goes. If you make a fuss, you can either purchase a membership or security will escort you off the premise. No covid required.

I do not totally agree with Garth’s “social contract” ideas. He talks as if we don’t have the choice to opt out, which we do, if we want to live on a homestead and raise our own chickens. But he is sort of right that if you want to interact with other people then some things need to be negotiated. You keep your hands off my daughter (and I off yours), you don’t steal my stuff (and me not yours), and we maybe all need to vaccinate in a pandemic.

I’m still not pushing to the front of the line my dental hygienist needs it before I do.

#247 Lunar Notion on 12.21.20 at 12:34 am

Hi Garth,

Just writing to say thank you for brining up this crucial topic and taking the time to follow up with commenters who for some unknown reason fail to appreciate that getting the vaccine made and tested in this short amount of time is an incredible achievement that will save lives and the economy if people get on board.

I hope its not true but it seems like in this blog’s comments and elsewhere being conservative leaning means leaning anti-science and being against making small sacrifices for the great good.

I am grateful you are holding up the bastion of logic and decency, which I think are still conservative values to be proud of.

#248 alf on 12.21.20 at 12:34 am

#74 Alberta Ed on 12.20.20 at 3:09 pm
At least the anti-vaxers will improve the gene pool.

By being the only remaining inhabitants?
You’re probably right.

#249 aCanuck on 12.21.20 at 12:49 am

Well, here’s the point of this post: for most people there will be no choice between vaccination and employment.
————————————————————

Welcome to dystopia!

How about a B&D approach to Health?

#250 JoinEm on 12.21.20 at 12:50 am

You’ll either get the mRNA sequence from the virus or the vaccine. It’s the same sequence. Think about it.

#251 tyberius on 12.21.20 at 12:51 am

Getting my armies ready for the vaxxers

#252 Al on 12.21.20 at 1:06 am

Looks like the trumpster s have moved on to belabour covid vaccinations.

#253 alf on 12.21.20 at 1:10 am

“What drives the anti-vax crowd? Fear. Seems cowardly, no? Garth”

You know what seems cowardly? All of the scared little monkeys walking the city streets with their terrified little eyes darting around above their masks. You know what else seems cowardly? All of the douche bag, wannabe bureaucrats incessantly attempting to impose their will upon others.
You know what the pro mask/pro whatever vax they throw at us crowd have in common? They’re always trying to tell others what to do.
How many anti mask/anti vax folks have approached you and demanded that you remove your mask or have told you that they would not allow you to be vaccinated.

Dude, you have obviously become too emotional and far too one sided about this entire dealio.
You claim that your opinions are based on the social contract, the greater good, altruism etc.
But, having observed your opinions over the last several years, my guess is that it’s all about the bottom line to you.

Why don’t you just worry about what you and yours choose to do, and allow everybody else to make their own bloody choice.

I highly recommend that you take up heavy drinking, pot smoking and going for long walks.
I’m not into that stuff myself, but I think it would be good for you.

#254 rookie57 on 12.21.20 at 1:23 am

I’ll get the shot/jab sometime in the future and add it to my vaccination booklet. Meanwhile there are a lot of higher risk people who need to get vaccinated before me. Talk of cowardice for people who have doubts is not very constructive. I too have questions about the safety of the vaccine for young females. I worry about my two child bearing aged daughters getting vaccinated without knowing anything about any potential negative birth effects. The speed of the vaccine development is a cause for concern. Perhaps modern science has produced another miracle but I still worry about my daughters being vaccinated.

#255 willworkforpickles on 12.21.20 at 1:29 am

Division/s are the seeds of dissension in society that never ends on the plus side of things. An ominous and large scale division between sides appears to be forming between pro-vaxers and the wait and see and anti-vaxers. In fact its becoming endemic North America wide and elsewhere.
Deep divisions in society for whatever the cause can inexplicably morph into increased racial strife over time and they solve nothing…not ever. The dominoes of unwell foreboding are stacked against society and leaning precariously into 2021.
There is no easy fix.
…and so it begins.

#256 I’m stupid on 12.21.20 at 7:08 am

Reading some of the comments reminds me of children kicking and screaming. I don’t agree with being forced to do anything but why fight when the end result will be the same. I’m going to take the vaccine and move on. I’m tired of living like this.

#257 Diamond Dog on 12.21.20 at 7:27 am

#8 Eco Capitalist on 12.20.20 at 12:11 pm
#12 Justin T on 12.20.20 at 12:24 pm
#24 KnowtheLaw on 12.20.20 at 1:00 pm
#28 mark on 12.20.20 at 1:20 pm
#40 KnowtheLaw on 12.20.20 at 1:44 pm
#62 Tron Light on 12.20.20 at 2:35 pm
#69 Sketchy on 12.20.20 at 2:54 pm
#76 Stan Brooks on 12.20.20 at 3:22 pm
#79 Elon Fanboy on 12.20.20 at 3:29 pm
#81 majik on 12.20.20 at 3:38 pm
#85 Stan Brooks on 12.20.20 at 3:46 pm
#90 Howard on 12.20.20 at 4:06 pm
#92 Canuck on 12.20.20 at 4:10 pm
#95 majik on 12.20.20 at 4:24 pm
#133 WDL on 12.20.20 at 5:43 pm

If any of you have made this shit list, I strongly advise you to get your media from somewhere else, you are all being lied to.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

The U.S. has tried this failed experiment known as “do nothing” and let everyone get infected for herd immunity that will never come (why? The virus’s surface antigens mutate over time like the flu, only more slowly. The immunity that comes from everyone being infected will wear off in time, likely within 3 years. The fact that a sitting director on the board of Pfizer is already saying the vaccine will need to be reformulated every 2 to 3 years should be our first clue) and to hide failed government policy in the bid for incumbent re-election. Why do we know this? Because the U.S. currently has more than 1 in 20 confirmed infected (5.5% of the population). This doesn’t count the unconfirmed which would be best guessed double that number (as France and UK gov scientists hypothesize).

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

What has this “hands off” approach led to? Overwhelmed hospitals throughout the USA. Please understand that hospitals in winter run around 80 to 90% capacity and as such, they can’t handle prolonged overflows the system is experiencing now. There are more than 100,000 people in U.S. hospitals every day and as a result, see for yourselves, do a search online of “hospitals overwhelmed”. Go city by city or state by state:

https://covidtracking.com/data/charts/us-currently-hospitalized

Hospitalized Covid19 patients are there because they have some level of pneumonia leading to some degree of damage and scarring to the lungs. Some will have heart damage and damage to the kidneys before they are released either back into public life or a morgue. Because they are there, people can’t get elective surgeries. This includes cancer and most operations. Because of hospital overflows, its possible that the U.S. will see 50% more deaths unrelated to Covid19 but the numbers are not yet known (we’ll need to compare it with past years to see).

If we look at U.S. states that don’t have mandatory mask mandates for a moment:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/states-reopen-map-coronavirus.html

We’ll see that every state without a mandatory mask mandate has above average infected cases per capita. States like South Dakota with 10.7% confirmed infected in the gen pop with poor testing compared to most other states would indicate that at least 3 in 10 have already been infected there. SD has lost 1361 people in a population of 884,659. 1 in 650 people have died in South Dakota this year from Covid19 (that we know of). What makes South Dakota so vulnerable to Covid19? Their Republican governor with the plan for herd immunity that, wait for it, will likely never come. South Dakota is a stones throw from Saskatchewan. I don’t know anyone with Covid19. The reason? Different government.

Why do we get flu shots every year? Because the flu has genetic drift. To risk using an analogy, it’s akin to our immune system antibodies looking for a virus with a red jacket. Over time it’s jacket turns from red to blue, disguising itself from antibodies. Same virus, different coat. The flu shots we get before every season is only good for about 6 months, influenza’s virus surface coating mutates so quickly. Covid19 also has genetic drift, but its slower. We don’t know how long vaccines and immunization from being infected will last for, but my own best guess is that it will likely at most last for 3 years (vaccines 2 to 3 years (30 months, it’s efficacy dropping over time):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift

To summarize, herd immunity is already a failed experiment. Global immunization isn’t advanced enough to get rid of Covid19 due to its known genetic drift, it’s here to stay. The best we can do now is control it’s spread through vaccination as we do with seasonal flu shots, keep our immune systems healthy through diet and supplements (Vitamin D and Zinc) or face the economic consequences because we aren’t smart enough to change.

It’s survival of the fittest, adapt or die. Smart people will take this vaccine for all kinds of reasons. Good economics, keeps chances of viral mutations lower (genetic shift & drift) but mainly it’s because, as anyone with pneumonia will tell you, your lungs aren’t the same. (Covid19 also likes to go after the heart) It’s simply in our own best interest to not catch this disease. It’s airborne, its highly contagious and it doesn’t just kill people, it puts large numbers in the hospital. If we haven’t got the courage or common sense to take a vaccine for ourselves, at least do it for others. Be your brother’s keeper, is it so hard?

#258 Wrk.dover on 12.21.20 at 8:01 am

#77 Wrk.dover on 12.20.20 at 8:47 am
Mr. Market is high/year end corporate suite bonuses to follow their yearly ritual.

—————————————–

Oops! Or not……

#259 crowdedelevatorfartz on 12.21.20 at 8:10 am

@#162 Bangers and Mash
“Italy blocks flights with Great Britain until 6 January.”

++++

Does this mean the residents of Blighty are trapped with Jane24?

Will the horror never cease?

#260 Diamond Dog on 12.21.20 at 8:15 am

#254 alf on 12.21.20 at 1:10 am

One shouldn’t personalize it but I can’t resist. You’re such a hypocrite Alf, criticizing Garth for calling anti-vaxxers cowards while you do the exact same thing yourself. Big difference is, Garth’s “advice” will save lives whereas your advice to get all lit up on booze and drugs will only destroy.

You sure get triggered with the usage of the word “coward”, Alf. Eh? Just look at how you put down people so easily as cowards because they wear a mask, as well as politicians who really have no choice but to do their best to protect the gen pop from a pandemic as though common sense and decency never had anything to do with it.

“You know what seems cowardly? All of the scared little monkeys walking the city streets with their terrified little eyes darting around above their masks. You know what else seems cowardly? All of the douche bag, wannabe bureaucrats incessantly attempting to impose their will upon others.” – Alf

This next thing you say Alf, wreaks of “black and white” all or nothing thinking (required reading Alf):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology)

“You know what the pro mask/pro whatever vax they throw at us crowd have in common? They’re always trying to tell others what to do.
How many anti mask/anti vax folks have approached you and demanded that you remove your mask or have told you that they would not allow you to be vaccinated.” – Alf

Nice “us vs them” attitude, that’ll get one far in life. The rest of what you say is put downs, presumably belittling others to build yourself up. Superior/inferior, more required reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferiority_complex

Here’s some free advice. You’re conflicted, Alf. Why is it so easy to tell? Because it’s so easy to spot. People that are conflicted are all the same, either always beating themselves up or looking for a fight. Until you some day learn to practice equality through respect for others and quit discriminating, you will never know peace. (yes numb nuts, its something you actually want to know)

#261 Diamond Dog on 12.21.20 at 8:19 am

#255 rookie57 on 12.21.20 at 1:23 am

Vaccines weren’t tested on ages below 16 and 14 meaning the FDA can’t approve vaccine use for these age groups. Even voluntary immunization for kids at this point isn’t in the cards.

#262 Slim on 12.21.20 at 8:20 am

COVID-19 has now killed more Albertans than last 10 flu seasons combined. –CBC

That’s with whatever restrictions in place. The simpletons will say it’s just like the flu and overblown by the media.

It’s got the point now, The Stollery Children’s Hospital in Edmonton is making room for Covid-19 patients.

#263 Stan Brooks on 12.21.20 at 8:43 am

DELETED

#264 jal on 12.21.20 at 8:47 am

Will the millions of people who had covid19 need a vaccine?

#265 millmech on 12.21.20 at 8:58 am

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/health/medical/this-is-why-the-end-of-the-coronavirus-pandemic-might-finally-be-in-sight/ar-BB1c5u1s?ocid=msedgntp

According to this article as long as you get tested and have covid antibodies you do not need the jab, test people for the anti bodies and only immunize those that do not have them( life labs in BC does the test for $75.00). One can test the whole family for antibodies and free up vaccines for those who have no antibodies, especially with all the cases now maybe only 50% of the population needs to be immunized.

#266 Ross G on 12.21.20 at 9:10 am

It seems that the majority of (you) people in the comments may have had your lights dimmed a little bit maybe from previous vaccinations but do not realize it. The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with low ability at a task (subject) overestimate their ability(knowledge). This effect observes that(you) people who are the most ignorant about something (vaccinations) will be the least aware of their own ignorance; they have the highest sense of false confidence (in the vaccine). My appologies to Don Cherry.(you people)

#267 Channel Surfer on 12.21.20 at 9:29 am

Trudeaus phony Covid-Great Reset scare kills another. You globalist supporters must be so proud.

https://vancouversun.com/news/daphne-bramham-covid-forces-families-into-a-heartbreaking-fight-for-access-to-loved-ones-in-long-term-care

#268 Sideshow Rob on 12.21.20 at 9:43 am

Imagine there’s no Federal Reserve
It’s easy if you try

#269 Dharma Bum on 12.21.20 at 9:44 am

I just got the Shingrix vaccine. Second dose to come in a couple of months.

So….are we all good?

#270 hingadin on 12.21.20 at 9:51 am

Instead of immediately jumping into divisive language and name-calling anti-vax or deniers, it is worth studying past medical malfeasance that may have led to this, especially among the BIPOC:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1913079/

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/history/40-years-human-experimentation-america-tuskegee-study

Take a step back, consider others’ fears, and build a bridge instead of a wall. No person has ever been persuaded by ridicule.

More virus deaths among BIPOCs. You are making it worse. – Garth

#271 hingadin on 12.21.20 at 10:12 am

#271 hingadin on 12.21.20 at 9:51 am

Take a step back, consider others’ fears, and build a bridge instead of a wall. No person has ever been persuaded by ridicule.

“More virus deaths among BIPOCs. You are making it worse. – Garth”

**************

Why the immediate attack?

I’m Black, and tried to give perspective and reasons for skepticism in my community. Attacking me does not build a bridge, nor does it convince.

I am pro-vax because I work in the field and accept the science. General acceptance by others comes about through time and an educational approach.

Divisive rhetoric is harmful.

Then, if you are for vaccination in your community, stop posting negative material. Are you just seeking attention? You got some. – Garth

#272 Doug in London on 12.21.20 at 10:14 am

One thing to keep in mind about getting the vaccine. The benevolent government is offering it for “free” but it isn’t really free. You’re paying for it with your taxes whether you like it or not. That should be reason enough to get vaccinated.

@Huh?, post #241:
Did it ever occur to you these so called “cowards” have been told by their employer, whether they like it or not, that they are required to work from home? I would gladly work from home if I could, COVID or not, so I didn’t have the expense and hassle to commute every day. These people aren’t cowards, but rather they are quite smart.

#273 Mother Nature on 12.21.20 at 10:23 am

[b]I won’t let you go back to your old ways![/b]

You fools think you can outsmart me, Mother Nature?

Even your fastest miracle vaccine can’t outsmart Mother Nature. When will you humans ever show respect to your environment and to Mother Nature?

I’ve mutated what you named as Covid-19 already 25 times. Even gave you 2 doozies that will render your miracle vaccine useless. More mutations to come, worry not!

Change your greedy ways humans! Don’t waste this opportunity. [b]I WON’T LET YOU GO BACK TO YOUR OLD WAYS![/b]

#274 Pox party like it's 2020 on 12.21.20 at 10:27 am

#262 Diamond Dog on 12.21.20 at 8:19 am
#255 rookie57 on 12.21.20 at 1:23 am

Vaccines weren’t tested on ages below 16 and 14 meaning the FDA can’t approve vaccine use for these age groups. Even voluntary immunization for kids at this point isn’t in the cards.
____________________

They will have “pox parties” … just like we used to do. The old fashioned natural way. Back when men were men … and you crossed your fingers that little Johnny didn’t die!

#275 KLNR on 12.21.20 at 10:34 am

@ #254 alf on 12.21.20 at 1:10 am
“What drives the anti-vax crowd? Fear. Seems cowardly, no? Garth”

You know what seems cowardly? All of the scared little monkeys walking the city streets with their terrified little eyes darting around above their masks. You know what else seems cowardly? All of the douche bag, wannabe bureaucrats incessantly attempting to impose their will upon others.
You know what the pro mask/pro whatever vax they throw at us crowd have in common? They’re always trying to tell others what to do.
How many anti mask/anti vax folks have approached you and demanded that you remove your mask or have told you that they would not allow you to be vaccinated.

Dude, you have obviously become too emotional and far too one sided about this entire dealio.
You claim that your opinions are based on the social contract, the greater good, altruism etc.
But, having observed your opinions over the last several years, my guess is that it’s all about the bottom line to you.

Why don’t you just worry about what you and yours choose to do, and allow everybody else to make their own bloody choice.

I highly recommend that you take up heavy drinking, pot smoking and going for long walks.
I’m not into that stuff myself, but I think it would be good for you.

Hey Garth, looks like the cowards are trying a coup d’état of your blog.

#276 enthalpy on 12.21.20 at 10:37 am

if someone has a differing opinion/or disagrees with you, it doesn’t automatically make them angry(or racist).

I miss the days people could disagree and not resort to ad hominems.

#277 KLNR on 12.21.20 at 10:42 am

@ #241 Huh? on 12.20.20 at 11:42 pm
What drives the anti-vax crowd? Fear. Seems cowardly, no? Garth

—————————–

Haven’t missed a day’s work from the beginning of this Wuhan Virus mess. I go out each and every day to earn a living for my family that includes an 8 month old daughter, my elderly mother and my disabled older brother. I don’t fear the virus one bit and neither does my 82 year old mother who’s pretty fed up with the whole thing. Yes an 82 year old little Sicilian widow has 10 times the balls of most of the kiss asses on this blog. She has lived a great life and survived the Second World War unlike you wusses.

Maybe the cowards are the ones hiding in some shack in the middle of nowhere who fear 99% + odds of survival while they spew all kinds of fear mongering, misinformation and shaming from behind their keyboards.

Besides being a coward you’re also being wilfully dumb.
Sad and hilarious.

#278 Truth hurts on 12.21.20 at 10:42 am

#255 rookie57 on 12.21.20 at 1:23 am
I’ll get the shot/jab sometime in the future and add it to my vaccination booklet. Meanwhile there are a lot of higher risk people who need to get vaccinated before me. Talk of cowardice for people who have doubts is not very constructive. I too have questions about the safety of the vaccine for young females. I worry about my two child bearing aged daughters getting vaccinated without knowing anything about any potential negative birth effects. The speed of the vaccine development is a cause for concern. Perhaps modern science has produced another miracle but I still worry about my daughters being vaccinated

Grow up and grow a pair. Coward! -Garth

How’s that Garth? Pretty good for a rookie. I sure told him.
Go ahead, take a much deserved break; think you need it. I got this.

#279 Doug in overpriced London, PI 16 on 12.21.20 at 10:43 am

While many of you here have been busy coming up with excuses for not getting vaccinated, did you notice stocks are down today? I think there’s some tax loss selling going on. If you have a lot of cash on hand, it may be a good time buy some stocks or equity ETFs and forget about the anti vaccination excuses.

#280 crowdedelevatorfartz on 12.21.20 at 10:54 am

Hmmmm.
It appears the British “Brexodus” has begun.

https://www.reuters.com/article/britain-eu-spain-portugal/britons-scramble-for-residency-in-spain-and-portugal-ahead-of-brexit-idUSKBN28V11U

Jane24 better hurry and buy that residence she keeps telling us about in Brittany before other ex-pats drive the prices into the stratosphere…….

#281 Keen Reader on 12.21.20 at 11:02 am

Just back from the dentist; staff is encouraged to get the shot, but are told it cannot be mandated. At work, my director said the same, emphasizing union rules. Imposing vaccinations may be quite challenging, but better immunity data may reduce opposition.

Personal experience: between aircrew and staff dealing with customers, we had nearly 100 directly exposed, roughly 30% positive tests, 10% mild symptoms and 2% sick at home. I’ve remained negative but still cumulated ten weeks of mandated isolation. No fun but better than sick!

#282 Six feet ... under on 12.21.20 at 11:19 am

#247 Nonplused on 12.21.20 at 12:25 am
#210 yvr_lurker on 12.20.20 at 8:52 pm

So that seems like a tangent but think Costco. They do not have to let you in. They didn’t even let you in before without a membership card. Just go try and buy some things at Costco without flashing your membership card and see how that goes.

____________________________

New to the site. Not sure who this Nonplused guy is, but I think he meant to say Nonsense. Like many on this site, it seems like he thinks he knows everything about everything. It’s only when someone opens their mouth do we realize how silly they sound.

I’ve been shopping at Costco without a membership card for over a decade. No card; no problemmo!

** BTW, I strongly recommend NOT shopping at Costco if you don’t want to end up in ICU. Sure, everyone is wearing a 38% effective surgical mask, but they don’t seem bright enough to understand how to follow an arrow…let alone how to estimate 6 feet!

#283 Diamond Dog on 12.21.20 at 11:30 am

#267 Ross G on 12.21.20 at 9:10 am

It’s not the first time we’ve heard someone use the Dunning-Kruger effect as a tool to suffer their opinion Ross. So, when are you going to argue your case? It’s not like readers haven’t heard low information opinions like yours pop off before. When you’re done running everyone down, you should try it some time… high information that is, instead of the self projection we have to suffer from you now.

#284 Piano_Man87 on 12.21.20 at 11:38 am

64% in Canada? Yikes.

Thought we needed 80%+ to get herd immunity.

Sounds like we need a public education campaign to inform people of the safety and efficacy of the vaccines.

#285 NSNG on 12.21.20 at 11:43 am

Yes, I know this is from the US

You can’t sue Pfizer or Moderna if you have severe Covid vaccine side effects. The government likely won’t compensate you for damages either

Key Points

Under the PREP Act, companies like Pfizer and Moderna have total immunity from liability if something unintentionally goes wrong with their vaccines.

A little-known government program provides benefits to people who can prove they suffered serious injury from a vaccine.

That program rarely pays, covering just 29 claims over the last decade.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html

That social contract is starting to look a little fraudulent and one-way.

Heads, they win. Tails, you lose.

This is getting ridiculous. There have been no serious side effects, and the vaccines have been carefully vetted. Stop being a coward. You are at far greater risk from the virus. – Garth

#286 biochemist on 12.21.20 at 12:00 pm

190 Theyounggreek on 12.20.20 at 7:50 pm

I would agree, except for the fact that your numbers are off by a factor of 2X to 3X.
More like 1%. But hey, I know the rules of this blog … stick to the narrative whether you need to fudge the data or not!”

That was true in the first wave, when we seem to have undercounted by about a factor of three or four based on Canadian Blood Services’ antibody screening. In the second we’re much more aware of the virus’ movement. Our current hospitalization rate is 5-6% overall, with a slight bias towards older people (but more youth have caught COVID due to recklessness mostly, so the 20-30 somethings are often the most hospitalized demographics in terms of raw numbers).

I’d also be wary of applying American figures to Canada – they’ve been singularly bad at handling it. (Note, also, that some claim up to 20x undercount there. This results in a number that is basically impossible to achieve without widespread reinfection. Which is… bad news.)

At any rate, the numbers we have are the numbers we have. We can’t just multiply them by some speculative multiplier to get a number we like better. Nor does this epidemiological dark matter really change the underlying problems of strained medical capacity. All the handwaving in the world doesn’t send those patients home hale and hearty. Also, yes, they’re normally full this time of year, but the people normally filing those beds have all been sent home, which will have further consequences later.

#287 Huh? on 12.21.20 at 12:06 pm

BANNED

#288 biochemist on 12.21.20 at 12:07 pm

For some reason that last one clipped the quotes. It was aimed at “209 Just the vax, ma’am! on 12.20.20 at 8:46 pm ”

” #190 Theyounggreek on 12.20.20 at 7:50 pm

#158 biochemist

No offence but I think you’re mistaken. In your
A->B->C example the vaccine as I understand it affects the B->C variable. Again as I understand it this vaccine does not protect you from getting the virus, only protects you from having “serious illness”. I think this is where a lot of the confusion is.”

Don’t think too much can really be taken away on that front. Too small a sample, too many question marks. There are things which are confusing, and things which we legitimately do not know. Nine severe cases vs. one are not enough to do much other than claim a probable reduction in frequency. Given what we know about the virus, it seems severity is linked to viral load, and viral load is linked to how contagious you are. Reducing symptomatic cases to asymptomatic would therefore still reduce transmission, though whether that actually happens won’t be known for months.

I would say, though, that even without sterilizing immunity the vaccine can still achieve our end goal. Get the R-nought (number of new infections a current infection will cause) below one, and it abates. It’s a numbers game. Kind of like masks – they are not super effective, but they are effective enough to materially reduce R0.

Consider more in terms of the financials this blog normally focuses on. The management fees on mutual funds aren’t huge in absolute terms, but the extra half-percent over ETFs adds up over time.

#289 Huh? on 12.21.20 at 12:12 pm

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#290 Faron on 12.21.20 at 12:36 pm

#280 Doug in overpriced London, PI 16 on 12.21.20 at 10:43 am

I think there’s some tax loss selling going on.

Look at VIX. That’s not tax loss selling. That’s “OMG there’s a new variant of the virus”. Last week saw very disappointing US employment #s, piss-poor retail sales, a growing-in-consequence US gov’t hack, failure of stimulus and other factors, yet the market was stable. Something had to give.

Market tensions are super high with literally everyone expecting a blow-out upside 2021, yet there’s a virus running that’s proving very nasty this year. Liquidity is, apparently, poor. These conspire to make for market roller coasters. Yes, BTFD, but hold onto your hat or make your purchase then throw your computer out the window so you can’t check your portfolio.

I have zero expertise in market analysis. I don’t know what I’m talking about. Seriously.

#291 Linda on 12.21.20 at 12:45 pm

#87 ‘Anon’ – do hope you are correct. Do think that some will try to use situation to improve their bottom line if they think they can get away with it.

#61 ‘Felix’ – though it does look like fire, I think the buildings in question are merely reflecting sunlight off reflective glass surfaces. See this regularly in our own neighborhood – one of the homes is perfectly situated to reflect the sun as it goes down. Can be quite a spectacular sight!

#292 SOMETHINGS UP!! on 12.21.20 at 1:15 pm

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#293 Dill on 12.21.20 at 1:20 pm

What about “Employers cannot be forced to shoulder the liability for NOT allowing non-vaxed workers into the workplace.” If 40% don’t trust the vax…employers (and employees) are going to be in a pickle. Not a very cut-and-dried situation.

#294 IHCTD9 on 12.21.20 at 1:24 pm

I got no issues with folks who have reservations over taking the vax, and I’m not going to shit on them for that opinion. I tend to distrust government myself, I’m more or less an independent thinker and do’er. I break all kinds of regulations, bylaws, policy, and rules all the time, and sleep fine at night. I have good reasons on all fronts.

I won’t be breaking this one though. I just don’t believe there are any grave concerns over its safety, it’s easy and no cost. That goes for all the vaccines I’ve had circulating in my system since the 70’s too. Hell, several years ago I paid out of pocket to have my eldest son vaccinated against HPV since the dumbass Liberal government here in Ontario at the time had decided that boys should not have this vax covered by OHIP – only girls.

In short, there are a lot of good questions about who should get it, what good will it do, why this, and why that. At the end of all the debate, I don’t believe there is any danger, I’m already full of them, there is no direct cost, it’s easy, so I’ll go – simple as that. If getting vax’d will contribute to getting everything back to normal quicker – I’m down for it on this hope alone.

#295 NSNG on 12.21.20 at 1:27 pm

This is getting ridiculous. There have been no serious side effects, and the vaccines have been carefully vetted. Stop being a coward. You are at far greater risk from the virus. – Garth

It has nothing to do with being a coward. I have had zero sick days in 28 years of work. I have cost the medical system nothing in over a decade. I do take a handful of specific and well-researched vitamins every day. I think I know what I am doing. People say I look 15 years younger than I am and I have not had any vaccines since elementary school. No flu shots and no flu. I plan on living at least another 40 years and if you think I am going to risk that and trust my perfect health to a bunch of doctor Frankensteins, you have another think coming.

I am very careful about what I put in my body so why would I gamble with that?

Just keep in mind that the same government paid scientists in a different division predicted we would all be underwater by now and wanted to start doing crazy things to our only atmosphere (like creating plankton blooms in our only ocean) to protect us from that dangerous globull warming…which never happened!

Okay, my mistake. Coward plus science denier. – Garth

#296 Huh? on 12.21.20 at 1:30 pm

BANNED

#297 Sheesh on 12.21.20 at 1:50 pm

#267 Ross G on 12.21.20 at 9:10 am
It seems that the majority of (you) people in the comments may have had your lights dimmed a little bit maybe from previous vaccinations but do not realize it. The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with low ability at a task (subject) overestimate their ability(knowledge). This effect observes that(you) people who are the most ignorant about something (vaccinations) will be the least aware of their own ignorance; they have the highest sense of false confidence (in the vaccine).
……
You are the epitome of Dunning-Kruger

#298 unbalanced on 12.21.20 at 1:53 pm

Alas! I miss the talk of real estate and investment.

#299 Penny Henny on 12.21.20 at 2:02 pm

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#300 Doug in overpriced London, PI 16 on 12.21.20 at 2:04 pm

@Faron, post #291:
I don’t know exactly what’s going on, but as I said it would do no harm to do some buying in you’re heavily weighted in cash. Myself, I’m heavily invested, having gone on a blitz of buying when equities were on sale, so I’m doing nothing. What if the markets take a dive in the new year? Just like right now, I’ll do next to nothing and definitely not sell anything at a loss. Then again, if everything gets really cheap I may scoop up some stocks or ETFs with margin debt. That’s the ONLY time you should ever buy with margin debt.

On a different note, I’ll forget about stocks and look for that planetary junction at dusk if the sky is clear.

#301 Faron on 12.21.20 at 2:39 pm

#296 NSNG on 12.21.20 at 1:27 pm

Just keep in mind that the same government paid scientists in a different division predicted we would all be underwater by now and wanted to start doing crazy things to our only atmosphere (like creating plankton blooms in our only ocean) to protect us from that dangerous globull warming…which never happened!

TL;DR:

Given your admission of an extremely poor understanding of atmospheric science, we cannot take your selective interpretation of medical science with any level of seriousness. Goodbye.


Here’s the long version:

No scientist of any repute predicted SLR on that scale for two reasons.

1) Climate scientists don’t predict the future, we project. The latter indicates that, hey, we have to take a broad range of assumptions into account to arrive at what we think future conditions will be. That said, the worse case projections of the 1990s have been the track we as a planet have followed, so the projections have been pretty much spot on.

2) No one ever said that all land surface area would be submerged… ever. It’s not even possible until tectonism ceases which ain’t happening. At one point glaciology pointed to a possibility that there would be as much as 3′ of SLR by 2100. That is now the high end of a range with a low end around a few tens of cms. That amount alone will impact millions of people.

Furthermore, geoengineering has been viewed by scientists as extremely fraught and certainly isn’t mainstream. I was asked about it during my comprehensive exams and concluded that it is an ethical quagmire that should not be delved into. I passed those exams.

#302 SeeB on 12.21.20 at 2:42 pm

#229 Tron Light on 12.20.20 at 10:20 pm

“How many times does it need to be repeated? This is about lessening disease so the health care system can function for everyone and not be COVID-clogged. – Garth”

I would say that there is a fundamental problem with the way we operate hospitals. Most hospitals in Ontario operate at 95% capacity and there are more than a few that consistently operate above 100% capacity. A bad flu season will overwhelm the hospitals. Isn’t that why they say to get a flu shot?

If our system wasn’t so flawed to begin with maybe we wouldn’t be going through all of this now.

Hospitals work at 95-100% capacity due to budget reasons. It would cost much more to increase that capacity and have it idling once the pandemic passes.

Yeah, that’d be great if they always had 50% available space, but people kind of resent paying taxes as is, so what do you want?

#303 gfd on 12.21.20 at 9:28 pm

Gimmi the vazzine already!

#304 Anna on 12.22.20 at 3:04 am

I greatly admire your work, Garth. However, my guess is that a more gentle approach, full transparency, an appeal that we’re “doing this to protect our healthcare system and future prosperity” and phase 4 trial data would be more effective in convincing the currently “hesitant” to go get a jab when their time comes. This group is likely to comprise 30-40% of the adult population, likely closer to half on those under 50. Not a small group. The anti-vaxxers (about 10% of the adult population) are a lost cause on this one, but those who are currently hesitant (because of lack mid- to long-term safety data for instance, or because they’re pregnant or breastfeeding and there is no safety data yet for these groups) are where the focus needs to be. Most of these people are not stupid, selfish or wimps. Name-calling, insults, public shaming and threats of loss of employment are only likely to further fuel the divide – and will likely be counterproductive.

#305 Prince Polo on 12.22.20 at 10:17 am

#6 Yukon Elvis on 12.20.20 at 12:09 pm
I see a lot of Supreme Court battles on the horizon on both sides of the border. It won’t be over until The Supremes rule on it.
———————————————–
The Supremes are not obligated to hear all cases and will likely dismiss any such legal nonsense. Google search reveals: Unlike all other federal courts, the Supreme Court has discretion to decide which cases it will hear. The Supreme Court gets thousands of petitions for certiorari, but only issues a writ in a fraction of cases. The Court will only issue a writ if four of the nine Justices vote to do so.

=================================
#31 Stonewaller on 12.20.20 at 1:25 pm
I’ve learned almost as much from the comment section, discussing topics and reading linked articles, as I have reading the blog
—————————————
That is truly frightening! The comments section is a cesspool of misinformation. Maybe stop reading it.

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#241 Huh? on 12.20.20 at 11:42 pm
Maybe the cowards are the ones hiding in some shack in the middle of nowhere who fear 99% + odds of survival while they spew all kinds of fear mongering, misinformation and shaming from behind their keyboards.
————————————————-
Says the person doing the exact same thing! That’s rich!

=============================
#254 alf on 12.21.20 at 1:10 am
[blah blah blah – a bunch of bravado and name calling]
————————————–
Is your empathy and/or compassion switch broken?

For all those questioning the “speed” of vaccine development. Would you feel better if 1 person worked on it for 5 years and then released it for distribution? The reason “peoplekind” have never done it so quickly before is that we’ve never had 1000s of people working on one for months, billions of $ spent on research, and also the latest technology that didn’t exist in the 20th century! I’ll bet the scientists of the 22nd century will be appalled at our inexplicable sloth on developing vaccines.

#306 calgary rip off on 12.22.20 at 12:35 pm

Observation of one person who has received Pfizer vaccine:

This morning I confirmed that one doctor I work with had the Pfizer vaccine this past weekend. He said he had a sore throat for 24 hours and a sore shoulder, no other symptoms, early 30s age. This is promising. Im hoping that with a real Covid challenge his immune system will be better enabled. Wait and see.

Havent seen the other immunized doctor yet. More doctors to get immunized next week. Still not available for staff.

Im hoping Moderna will be available soon.

#307 KATE on 12.22.20 at 4:58 pm

Garth you made an ethical claim without a basis for ethics. Social contract? thats relative. Whats your grounding presupposition for ethics?

#308 Scooter on 12.22.20 at 9:21 pm

You had me until you threw anti-Vaxers in with the Alt-Right.

I’m not sure what one has to do with the other, but I understand why you feel people should be vaccinated, I truly do.

I’m unsure, but I’m certainly not Alt-Right.

Respect Garth, as always.

#309 Fabio on 12.23.20 at 12:21 pm

Hard to know what’s worse. Cowardice or stupidity. – Garth

How about freedom of choice? I guess we have none anymore, eh? Trust out government.

You are free to get infected, contagious or hospitalized. But why would you? – Garth