The condovirus

Condos are the entry door to home ownership for thousands. Hundreds of thousands. Most think they’re investing in real estate, but no dirt’s involved. No property. Owners own from the paint in. The rest of the building is their shared liability. That’s what condo or strata fees are for – to help pay for the cost of maintaining a structure worth millions. Plus insuring it.

If more condo buyers knew what they are buying into, many would freak. They’d bolt. And so they should. A liability disaster may be unfolding.

At first the crisis seemed remote and unique. Condo owners in Fort Mac facing disaster when premiums soared in a community that was attacked by wild fire. Property values plunging to near zero. Owners under water. Mortgages being cancelled.

Then it spread.

Premiums for condo corps in some Alberta centres spiked by 700% or more. Monthly fees escalated wildly as a result. Then last month every condo owner in the province became personally liable for up to $50,000 in potential payments. Condominium corps can seek recovery of the deductible portion of an insurance claim to that level from any condo owner for damage originating in their unit – whether they caused it or not. (Many condo associations in Canada have deductibles ranging up to hundreds of thousands, and owners whose units cause damage can be on the hook for the full amount.)

As one lawyer interprets it: “That means that if something happens in the unit and it’s not your fault — the toilet explodes, there’s water loss, water damage goes through to the floors below — and there’s a $50,000 deductible or a $25,000 deductible, the owners are now responsible for the deductible.”

But it gets worse. What if your condo building couldn’t get insurance at all? Then you couldn’t sell your unit. No buyer could get financing. Property values would collapse. Your own financing likely would not be renewed.

Which, as it turns, out, is exactly what’s happening in BC.

Catastrophic loss events like the 2016 Fort Mac fire, the blazes in central and northern BC or the 2013 Calgary flooding combined with climate change projections, changing weather patterns, escalating building and replacement costs and inflated real estate values (thanks to demographic demand and the mortgage stress test) have seriously goosed condo values, and lie at the heart of a liability crisis. Insurers are backing off. Risk has exploded. Most have no idea what may be coming.

In Burnaby, for example, one condo corp has seen the insurance premium escalate from $200,000 a year to over $800,000, resulting in a massive hike in monthly fees. Other developments have been unable to renew their policies at any price, cancelling sales of individual units since buyers can’t get a mortgage in an uninsured structure.

Says Tony Gioventu, executive director of the Condominium and Homeowners Association of B.C., “This will collapse our real estate industry because no one will be able to get mortgages and there will be no buyers and no sellers.” The buildings hardest hit are those where the most expensive units are located, plus any that have had recent insurance claims or where condo boards have neglected to keep up with big maintenance projects, fearing the impact of special assessments on condo owners.

In BC, the provincial government is being pressed to step in and legislate some kind of solution. Nationally the Insurance Bureau of Canada has engaged a risk manager to work with condo boards in finding ways of reducing their exposure. Nowhere in Canada is there any governmental cap on condo premiums, nor are insurers required to get approval for increases.

In Ontario the insurance issue is being called “a crisis’ by the Canadian Condominium Institute as a growing number of boards cannot find insurance, at any cost. The burden which could be imposed on individual condo owners is large as insurers reprice risk in a changed world. Already many of them, as first-time buyers, struggle with financing payments, property taxes, utilities and personal condo insurance as well as monthly corporation fees. The last thing they need is hundreds more a month in charges – or the potential of a huge deductible – as policies jump in cost.

What to do?

In Alberta every condo owner needs enough personal insurance to handle the cost of the potential $50,000 deductible now on their shoulders. Everywhere people with units must prepare for the certainty of rising monthly condo or strata fees, and perhaps a special annual assessment, as boards are hit with premiums they must pass on. It goes without saying as the cost of condo ownership escalates, property values will be impacted. Mortgage lenders know, and are already adjusting their own risk management.

Mostly, if you’re thinking about a condo purchase, think again. Be prepared to accept greater liability and have the capacity to absorb higher fees. Never, ever buy without requesting a status report from the condo board and having your lawyer parse it. That will show the state of insurance and should highlight developing issues. If you already own, ask the condo board for a copy of the current certificate of insurance – it will outline deductible costs. Insure against them.

Sorry, kids. Mom might have been wrong. You should have rented.

Below: Brian sends this photo along, with the caption, “This is what happens when a condo runs out of money – in Hollywood, Florida.”

 

142 comments ↓

#1 Mike on 02.09.20 at 2:06 pm

Caesarism: https://youtu.be/vKb01XLPR7E

A very prescient view of what’s transpiring across the Western world.

#2 avocado latte on 02.09.20 at 2:08 pm

Interesting piece Garth. Is it fair to contrast this with owning a REIT, that the company could go to zero, but you (as a shareholder) are off the hook for any additional liabilities?

REITs own baskets of income-producing commercial buildings, often major shopping malls or Class A office towers. None are going to zero. No liability. – Garth

#3 yvr_lurker on 02.09.20 at 2:17 pm

Seems very strange how the collective premiums for a building in Burnaby would increase from 200K to 800K, based on an argument of climate change, the problem in Fort Mac etc. I have heard reports that one of the key issues is the lack of competition in the insurance industry (as some may have left the field owing to the large payouts in these crisis areas… Fort Mac etc..). So where is Mr. Market in all of this. I always thought that this was the answer to everything on this blog. One would think that others would enter the field to fill the gap and provide insurance (at a more modest increase). Is there some hidden barrier that prevents this?

An insurance company does not have a portfolio of one building. Risk is the aggregate of exposure to hundreds or thousands of properties, and premiums reflect this. – Garth

#4 GA on 02.09.20 at 2:19 pm

Great blog post Garth. Will you explain what a T1135 is and how it affects me if I exceed $100 K in foreign content ETF? I heard there is also a $250K limit as well?????

#5 dutch4505 on 02.09.20 at 2:29 pm

The black swan for BC condo values. Did not see this one coming.

#6 Hawk on 02.09.20 at 2:46 pm

I don’t disagree with this, but as someone who owns both a house and a condo, I can tell you that if you want to keep your house in good saleable condition, over a period of time, you will have lots of expenses there as well.

Friends I have, have spent ten’s of thousands of dollars on the house. The lack of a “maintenance fee” does not mean that your house, does not require a ton of maintenance. So really basically if you want to keep your real estate in good shape, you are going to have to shell out one way or another.

If you don’t want costs associated with maintenance of real estate, your best option is to rent, rather than own. You will save a ton of money, but you may miss out on the gains that come with price appreciation………….well atleast as long this bubble continues to blow!!!!!!!

#7 FreeBird on 02.09.20 at 3:12 pm

In an interview one Toronto lawyer specialized in condo sale contracts said even they found the contracts hard to understand. Maybe they’ve changed but I wonder how many are signed impulsively in Brad Lamb type sales offices under duress of FOMO/unicorn numbers without any legal assistance? Probably many. Never sign anything without reading carefully and nothing legal without a lawyer and or objective (3rd party) experienced professional. Expensive lesson. A retired friend is renting a newly updated one by the water and GKs and quite happy to not be free of ownership.

Two short docs on reality of condos.

CBC Doc Zone
https://youtu.be/oq4kXxcGTSA

Photo doc (short with commentary)
https://youtu.be/W21KQAv1G2M

#8 zee on 02.09.20 at 3:14 pm

hi
condo policies are already here in Ontario have coverage for such payment under loss assessment fee. this is standard and all policies have this coverage to unit owners.
this is nothing new, not sure why you think this is a big deal!

#9 FreeBird on 02.09.20 at 3:16 pm

Typo…retired friend renting condo is happy to be free of ownership.

#10 TurnerNation on 02.09.20 at 3:21 pm

Climate change-insurance scam an excuse to deny people housing, forcing them into cities getting them off the land and sustainability.
More dependence on Government “affordable housing” drumbeat is daily. Kommunist Block Apartments are back. Tent cities appear out of nowhere, which NGO is shipping the in for effect?
Not sure if this weblog is just virtue signalling as it might own a Least Coast near-water property.
Rising seas yadda yadda.

For yesterday’s topic I feel for anyone needing health care in the next decade or two. When, Med Schools have so bent their entrance requirements to favour social justice over ability. Grow up in a rough postal code or broken home? Do you Feel marginalized? Then you will be weighted more highly. Medical ability not so much.
Feels good doesn’t it!

#11 MF on 02.09.20 at 3:32 pm

Meh nobody cares about “details” like this anymore. That’s from a bygone era when owners wanted to live in the units they purchased (for like 1/10 the price), with the intent to pay it off, and when interest rates were “normal”.

Today’s condos are bought because:

-Everything else is beyond overpriced and a joke
-Everyone expects continued price appreciation
-It will be rented out the whole time anyways so who cares
-It will he sold to some other idiot who will have to deal with the “details” later

To be fair some people (like myself) prefer condo living and have zero desire for a home. So that’s the one positive.

Condos costing as much as they do in the gta is a symptom of the underlying sickness. It’s like a bloody cough usually indicates a more serious problem in the body.

We know the sickness: failed policy left right and center, incompetent central banks, cmhc that needs to go, a real estate industry that has run amok and needs to be reigned in.

Nothing will change in the meantime because no body has the balls to do anything so expect continued price appreciation….until she comes crashing down (could be years away though). But crash it will.

MF

#12 Sold Out on 02.09.20 at 3:42 pm

I question exactly how much of this condo insurance crisis is driven by the high rate of rentals and Air BnBs. Condo specuvestors/owners with an eye on cashflow are certainly going to vote against expensive maintenance, guaranteeing problems down the road.

Investors always want low costs, maximum cash flow and deferred maintenance. The fact half of all new units are sold to people with no intention of living there should give us a good glimpse into the future. – Garth

#13 Condo Fees on 02.09.20 at 3:42 pm

In Burnaby, for example, one condo corp has seen the insurance premium escalate from $200,000 a year to over $800,000,

————————————————————-

A 500 unit building in such conundrum would have to raise condo fees $100 per month. Shocking and damaging to say the least but not enough to stop this mentally deranged real estate market. Up go the rents when we fools thought that rental rates had their limits in Canada and would be the no brainer way to go.

Wrong again sadly.

#14 BS on 02.09.20 at 3:44 pm

The problem with condos and strata’s is you have 100s of owners that have to agree on everything. It is like going into business with 100 other people you don’t know and many you will never meet don’t know they financial situation to pay expenses.

How much insurance is enough? Is a $50k deductible okay to save a few bucks? When do we replace the windows? Do we bring in an engineer to assess the building envelope? If he finds a problem whet do we do, does everyone have a $100K to fix it? Does the lobby get redecorated? Do we restrict short term rentals and pets?

Condos are a disaster to own. Why anyone would pay a premium to own a condo along with all the transaction costs over renting is crazy. Like buying a timeshare.

#15 Brian Ripley on 02.09.20 at 3:55 pm

Calgary Housing Chart updated:
http://www.chpc.biz/calgary-housing.html

“In January 2019 prices continued following their down trends of lower highs. Average Condo prices lead the way down at 33% below their JUN 2014 peak putting them back to 1Q 2006 price levels !!!

Average single family detached prices remain inside their 6 year area of support, ​while the total residential sales plot continues to plumb the seasonal lows. The ratio of listings to sales in Calgary has jumped to 5.9 compared to Vancouver at 5.5 and Toronto at only 1.7​

Also Demographia… Fort McMurray is the most “affordable” city out of 308 international cities and out of 50 Canadian cities.
http://www.chpc.biz/demographia.html

Cheap housing and big incomes in Fort McMurray if you can find stable income.

#16 FAKE NEWS on 02.09.20 at 3:57 pm

No need to worry

The Great Reset is around the corner.

#17 the Jaguar on 02.09.20 at 4:03 pm

If, (like the Jaguar) you believe the Banks are ancient warriors, then it follows that the insurance companies are equally ‘badass’, with the additional advantage of not attracting the same level of everyday media attention except when they elect not to honour a claim. I put them in the same category of mostly responsible and cunning corporations trying their best to scratch out a living on behalf of their shareholders. Bless them. Viewed in that light, good on them for laying an ear to the track and eye on the horizon for trouble. If developers & builders cut corners on design or materials ( Kitec plumbing disasters or glass window curtain wall leaks or insulation failures, etc), or statistics bear out greater fire or water damage risk in lower storey wood frame buildings, or worse yet lackadaisical attitudes by condo boards or owners who allow unregulated AirBnB units which result in increased damage/risk, then who can blame them for voting with their feet? It may also bite owners who leveraged credit (probably not telling their mortgage holders) who might now be hooped on any special assessment that comes their way. I am unsympathetic to such shenanigans.
Leaky condos are old news and the Fort Mac fire (2016) and Calgary flood of (2013) were the hand of mother nature at work, the BC interior fires more likely a result of too many hosers in the back country.
Loathe though I am to drag those poor, tired, old chickens back on stage to roost again there appears to be no lack of appetite for their further encore.
Love the dog photo. German Shepherds are the face of loyalty, bravery and devotion, and are singular in their beauty.

#18 SHHHH .... on 02.09.20 at 4:08 pm

We’re not supposed to talk about this.

#19 Camille on 02.09.20 at 4:12 pm

She bought a condo 25 years ago and its tripled in price. Its provided reasonable shelter. She was fortunate to have a very good condo board and the building is well maintained. Yes, as the building has aged, renters are approaching 50%, and insurance is becoming a problem. It may well be on it’s way to becoming a defacto rental building. Are the risk big, they’re getting bigger. Are they alarming, no. Should you buy a condo now, probably not. But you can’t afford a house. So what do you do? Do what Garth recommends, rent.
I really hate it, but the whole condo thing has gone awry. Massive number of rentals, airbnb, noise, 500+ unit buildings, special assessments, condo boards… It was supposed to be a special way of living for wealthy people, but even then it went awry. Check out article Faulty Towers in Vanity Fair, available online by googling, a real revelation into high end condos.

#20 DON on 02.09.20 at 4:14 pm

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-06/equity-bulls-beware-insiders-are-rushing-to-sell-their-stocks

Just profit taking?

#21 Stoner on 02.09.20 at 4:17 pm

The solution to the B.C. condo insurance problem is simple. ICBC will expand its mandate to cover this. So will Ontario. High risk insurance pools have always been a government problem, so that’s what will happen. If condo prices dive because of insurance issues, the smart move would be to buy. Only fools sell low and buy high.

#22 Linda on 02.09.20 at 4:28 pm

Question: if condo boards can’t get insurance, how would individual condo owners get it? Surely an insurer who refused coverage for the entire building would not be willing to provide coverage to individual units within the same building?

If condo buildings can’t get insurance coverage from insurance providers, are they legally allowed to self insure? I’m just presuming that unit owners would be on the hook for any liability issues even if no external company will provide coverage.

When I think about the sheer volume of negative press regarding condo ownership it puzzles me that anyone would be willing to buy one. Rent one, sure, I could see that but actually buy one? Sounds like a world of hurt just waiting to happen.

Unit owners obtain insurance from the paint in – contents, plus personal liability. Plus they can insure against condo deductibles. They do not insure the structure – Garth

#23 SimplyPut7 on 02.09.20 at 4:52 pm

I was told most condo buyers were foreign investors with suitcases full of money.

So this isn’t going to be a major problem in Canada.

I am sure they will continue to buy condos when the 100,000+ new units bought by poor flippers/speculators are completed over the next several years.

———-

But seriously, you knew this day was coming. There’s a reason maintenance fees in New York City run in the thousands every month for the same priced condos in Toronto or Vancouver.

Condo buildings are very expensive to maintain and we shouldn’t be encouraging developers to keep building this type of housing for middle-class and poor people when there is enough land in Canada to build detached homes and townhomes with backyards.

Condo owners, investors and speculators were on borrowed time. There’s no free lunch!

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2020/01/25/aura-condo-residents-in-disbelief-after-being-told-their-water-could-be-out-for-seven-weeks.html

#24 wallflower on 02.09.20 at 5:04 pm

Here in Barrie our deductibles just went from 1,000 and 2,500 to 10,000 and 25,000.
No big deal but! when the guy above you doesn’t carry his own insurance and causes mega damage to YOUR unit …

#25 Annabelle McPhearson on 02.09.20 at 5:06 pm

After reading this article, It makes me want to go long big cannabis. These condo owners will need to relax from the stress of special adjustments!

#26 Marcella Zoia on 02.09.20 at 5:13 pm

REITs own baskets of income-producing commercial buildings, often major shopping malls or Class A office towers. None are going to zero. No liability. – Garth

_____________________________________

Just wait until I throw a fridge from the 65th floor of the Scotiabank tower!

#27 joblo on 02.09.20 at 5:15 pm

On the fast train to bankruptcy in Kanada.
Got condo?
no 6% portfolio gonna save u.

#28 Marcella Zoia on 02.09.20 at 5:15 pm

Approve my comment before I throw myself from the top floor of Bloor One!

Yours truly,
Marcella Zoia aka Chair Girl and Mami x0x0

#29 Cbo on 02.09.20 at 5:16 pm

Been on a condo board for almost a decade.
Ours recently came back with a 100% increase.
From 50k to 100k. And this was shopped around extensively.
At the end of the day it is spread among 270 units.
50000/270/12=15 bucks a month.
The likely hood of passing the full cost over to the owner is very low. Many understand that reasonable fees correlate to strong market values. Especially if the building is unique such as ours. 100 year old centurion.
Our annual budget is 1.2MM. We’ll find the money somewhere else.
We don’t need buy in from all occupants. That’s why you elect a board and pay a property manger.
Decisions like this almost never involve the collective. Unless fees are forced up substantially you would hold a general owners meeting chaired by your lawyer and discuss options.
This isn’t the nail in the coffin unless it continues exponentially.

#30 Long-Time Lurker on 02.09.20 at 5:32 pm

>What, me worry?

Harry Chen PhD
@IsChinar

United states pulls its citizens out of Wuhan…they are taking this virus way more seriously, look at their suits

#coronavirus #CoronavirusOutbreak #Wuhan #coronaviruschina

John Tessandori
@Tessfire1
Feb 6
Replying to
@IsChinar
Those are standard level 2 NBC suits. Nuclear, Biological, Chemical. Probably what they had level below this is mask with splash guards liquid proof paper aprons Nytrol gloves. & or tyvex coveralls. level above are real hard to get around in.

Kelvin Chan
@kelvin_chanky
Feb 6
Replying to
@IsChinar
Yep, a legit tyvek suit with positive pressure air supply. I wore those during my time serving in a chemical defense unit in my country. Definitely military gear and treating the virus like a biological weapon.

https://twitter.com/IsChinar/status/1225642223506579457

#31 Cliff Dunlop on 02.09.20 at 5:32 pm

You know Garth. You make a statement like “you should have rented” but you know that landlords will just pass all of these costs on to their renters. It’s the same with our wonderful governments. They make these rules to “protect” renters by penalizing owners and yet in the end the costs have to be paid and it’s the renters that are getting the increases.

You missed the point. It’s about liability and equity erasure, not costs. – Garth

#32 Long-Time Lurker on 02.09.20 at 5:39 pm

>Decimate.

Professor Neil Ferguson on the current 2019-nCoV coronavirus outbreak.
113,259 views•Feb 5, 2020

Your questions answered: Professor Neil Ferguson, director of J-IDEA, on the current 2019-nCoV coronavirus outbreak (05-02-2020). He addresses the work of his team on estimates, the scale of the epidemic, forward projections, the role of modelling and analytics in outbreak response, informing governments, interventions, control measures and more.

The Abdul Latif Jameel Institute for Disease and Emergency Analytics (J-IDEA) brings together global health researchers in the School of Public Health at Imperial College London. Drawing on Imperial’s expertise in data analytics, epidemiology and economics, J-IDEA improves our understanding of diseases and health emergencies in the most vulnerable populations across the globe. The Institute links governments, research institutions and communities to develop practical and effective long-term solutions, shape health policy and deliver better quality of life for all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALQTdCYGISw

#33 reynolds531 on 02.09.20 at 5:40 pm

The question about impact on REIT investments is actually valid. A lot of REiTs have large residential components. Ie boardwalk.

Apartment REITs are not condos. – Garth

#34 Ronaldo on 02.09.20 at 5:43 pm

#14 BS

Condos are a disaster to own. Why anyone would pay a premium to own a condo along with all the transaction costs over renting is crazy. Like buying a timeshare.
—————————————————————–
And that’s no BS. And the reason us old boomers are not looking at moving into condo’s. Bin der Dun dat.

#35 Condo Pauper on 02.09.20 at 5:51 pm

It is not the other owners that you need to worry about – it is the renters and repetetive move in and move outs that can cause sprinkler head / water damage in the hallways and throughout the building – crossing into multiple units and down to lower floors. No thanks – too many unknowns and financial risks of special assessments in the thousands with no control over what the management co, insurance co, strata board want to collect from you. Russian Roulette ala condo style during every day and night. What could go wrong in the strata next and how much will it cost ?

#36 crowdedelevatorfartz on 02.09.20 at 5:51 pm

“What to do?”

++++
Rent.

The first week of Jan 2020 I renewed the 1992 1 ton cube van for the business.
I bitched at the Autoplan Insurer about the exorbitant ICBC rates ( $3600 for one year, No fire, no theft, no collision)
I mentioned that ICBC should be closed and the private sector take over.
He smirked and said, “Just wait til you see the new private sector property insurance rates.”

Anyone that buys a condo now ….. is an idiot.

#37 Ronaldo on 02.09.20 at 5:53 pm

#22 Linda
When I think about the sheer volume of negative press regarding condo ownership it puzzles me that anyone would be willing to buy one. Rent one, sure, I could see that but actually buy one? Sounds like a world of hurt just waiting to happen.
—————————————————————–
There is no glory in owning a condo, especially an apartment condo. There were a result of the socialists imposing rent controls back in the early 70s in BC. Developers stopped building rental units and converted those built into condo’s where you could buy your suite and also take on all the responsibilities and risk of ownership. Nice move for the developers. To me, buying a condo now is like prepaying your rent for the next 25 years and hoping you can get some of it back when you go to sell it. Much wiser to rent now.

#38 Kostas on 02.09.20 at 5:54 pm

Garth, you forgot a very simple thing: We live in an almost communist country. Meaning that the over-spending government will rise taxes to start insuring this kind of buildings, because “we shouldn’t leave our fellow compatriots alone with the consequences of their crappy decisions”. I mean it’s obvious, and nothing else surprises me anymore in Canada when it comes about the real estate…

#39 WUL on 02.09.20 at 5:59 pm

Garth,

Good post today. I know people here in Ft. Mac being wiped out by all this. Stress galore.

And, bear in mind that the maintenance of an insurance policy by the condo corporation is not optional. It is mandatory here in AB.

Section 47 of Alberta’s Condominium Property Act.

WUL

M64The Mac

#40 The real Kip (Ret) on 02.09.20 at 6:00 pm

For once I agree with the post of the day. The entire condo concept is flawed.

#41 Dave on 02.09.20 at 6:03 pm

I agree condos are a crappy investment, worse with these changes to insurance. But what does one do if they live in Vancouver, TO, or Victoria when they can’t afford a home and there are not many decent rental options?

#42 crowdedelevatorfartz on 02.09.20 at 6:08 pm

@#88 crazyfox
“we’ll get that through the recognition of human value for what its worth, through compassion, charity and leadership…..
I’m not sure why these are such hard concepts for some to understand… we we’re supposed to have learned this by the time we become adults……

+++++

Please tell me you not that naive….because if past history is any indication….

The money Canada “gives” to these African countries will be stolen by their leaders…..

https://www.cgdev.org/blog/how-much-aid-really-lost-corruption

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/africa-in-focus/2017/04/20/making-africa-great-again-reducing-aid-dependency/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123758895999200083

Those links took half a second to find.

African leaders are notorious for stealing their countries blind.

My most recent “fave” is the billionaire daughter of a former Angolan dictator defending her riches in Court.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kerryadolan/2019/12/23/daddys-girl-how-an-african-princess-banked-3-billion-in-a-country-living-on-2-a-day/

Revolting doesnt even begin to describe the rampant corruption in that continent….and if you think Little Lord Fauntelroy-Trudeau has found a way to beat it……your even more naive than I thought.

Nope.
As a former British Ambassador said it best in his farewell speech to numerous African Heads of State at his retirement party,
” No longer will have to shake your hands while you piss on my feet…”

#43 I believe everything on Television on 02.09.20 at 6:24 pm

The government put cold water on the real estate market with the stress test etc. deliberately to coral millennial into condos that no one wanted. Big money and big financing built big condos that no one asked for, the government has to protect those interests. Note to millennials- the government is your adversary.

#44 PetertheSeparatistfromCalgary on 02.09.20 at 6:49 pm

Very high density housing is problematic for a number of reasons.

Most of your money in dense developments is for the building not the land. Buildings can burn, flood, and rot. Land is seldom destroyed.

Glass walls are not very durable.

High rises are more complex than other buildings meaning more can go wrong.

Gravity does not forgive bad design or poor maintenance and the higher a building the more gravity is a factor.

Bed bugs love high density buildings as they can easily move from unit to unit. They are bed bug buffets! Also getting bugs exterminated requires a lot of human cooperation in a big condo building . A few anti pesticide nut jobs or cheap skates in your building can make things difficult. Also the chances that bed bugs will enter your building rise the more people that live in it.

You may hate sprawl but you don’t have to put up with the above in a sprawling detached housing suburb.

FYI Calgary has a lot of affordable detached homes and we are near Banff.

#45 Steven Rowlandson on 02.09.20 at 6:52 pm

I’m not a fan of the condo or rental market but this evening while at Tim’s on Bayfield street in Barrie ,ON a young man in another car attempted to interest me in renting a room for $600 a month instead of living in my car that costs me far less.
This has got to be the same kind of sell or short signal as shoeshine boys giving stock tips in New York in 1929.
If I were a real estate investor ,god forbid I would have to face facts that the market was at a top or nearly so and sell. Landlords and tenants must be desperate for customers or subtenants but they don’t want to drop their rents. If one can’t short the market, boycott it because it has to burn.

#46 Dave on 02.09.20 at 7:00 pm

DELETED

#47 JSS on 02.09.20 at 7:01 pm

Does anyone have any experience investing in Centurion REIT? They’re a privately held REIT investing in apartment building and student housing to name a few.
I think it’s minimum $25K investment.

#48 G on 02.09.20 at 7:15 pm

Coronavirus Epidemic Underestimated? – Zooming In
Feb 9 23min
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yZliBftSaM

#49 Treasure Island CEO - 154,323,532.88 Offshore on 02.09.20 at 7:28 pm

Townhomes and condos are the worst buys. Renting them is only slightly better as you still have to deal with your nutty neighbor who might burn the place down from getting drunk, passing out from laced vape with a cigarette in hand – up she goes. Stay clear of timberframe. BC allows up to 12 storeys now. How safe.

I wonder what house insurance will do? Also, when you own a house with dirt, you still should run a strata like fee monthly as a savings towards maintenance fixes on the house (very easy to calculate the costs of an aging house – you can use engineering reference manuals for you region to determine components and replacement costs for your area in Canada) and if you do not have money growing in some sort of account to draw from for repairs you will be putting a blue tarp on your roof as your new roof come time to replace. It is pretty simple. All components have a shelf life (i.e. roof – 15-50 years depending on material used, hot water tank 10 years, tankless on demand water 20 years, etc.).

It is like figuring out retirement – how much will I need at a certain point in time?

Or you can be like an OkBoomer, buy the house new, and sell it after 15 years to a millenial for three fold once the repairs start coming before having to do anything to the place and buy yourself another new house with the cash out.

Honey, the furnace needs replacing – get the for sale sign.

#50 Alessio on 02.09.20 at 7:35 pm

If condos don’t get insurance what’s going to happen to the millions of them in Canada? Won’t this cause a massive economic crash? And if they’re not a good investment or you can’t insure them what will renters rent? Houses in the burbs far from transit? I’m confused about this article Garth. My parents own a home and it ain’t cheaper then carrying costs and expensive updates and taxes and maintenance and heat and water etc eats away at equity.

#51 Market meet Black Swan on 02.09.20 at 7:39 pm

You won’t have to worry about insurance if any of the below is true. Unemployment depression will be the new trend.

Exiled Chinese billionaire Guo Wengui said Sunday, citing leaked information out of Wuhan, that the death toll could be as high as 50,000, as Chinese officials burn bodies to cover up the true extent of the crisis.

1.5 million Chinese infected with #corona virus

50,000 cremated already

#52 HH on 02.09.20 at 7:41 pm

The situation is not that bad here in the Okanagan. My condo fees for 2020 are $148 a month. We don’t have any swimming pools, hot tubs or club houses. Everyone pays their own water, etc. There are 34 units – townhouse style. Our strata insurance went up by $5000. The $148 includes that increase. But Vancouver……. It’s bad. I don’t know how that city will
attract the professionals they will need. Who could
afford that city? It’s insane.

#53 Bezengy on 02.09.20 at 7:42 pm

I remember driving down Hwy 52 in Florida year 2010. On one side of the Hwy were several trailer parks with no lights on in the entire park, even though people still lived there. Apparently when 40% of the tenants could not pay their electricity bills they just shut down the entire park. Makes me wonder what the critical mass would be of tenants who couldn’t pay their condo fees before the whole association goes bust.

#54 meslippery on 02.09.20 at 7:43 pm

Same City same price why would anyone choose the condo??
https://www.point2homes.com/CA/Condo-For-Sale/ON/Oshawa/Centennial/900-WILSON-RD-N/86230980.html

https://www.royallepage.ca/en/property/ontario/oshawa/156-eastdale-st/11081949/mlse4684115/

#55 Ustabe on 02.09.20 at 7:44 pm

#36 crowdedelevatorfartz on 02.09.20 at 5:51 pm

“What to do?”

++++
Rent.

The first week of Jan 2020 I renewed the 1992 1 ton cube van for the business.
I bitched at the Autoplan Insurer about the exorbitant ICBC rates ( $3600 for one year, No fire, no theft, no collision)
I mentioned that ICBC should be closed and the private sector take over.
He smirked and said, “Just wait til you see the new private sector property insurance rates.”

Anyone that buys a condo now ….. is an idiot

Time after time, post after post, no matter the subject, you have a personal anecdote that both is germane to the topic and definitely propels your particular point of view.

Amazing, actually.

#56 Sail away on 02.09.20 at 7:48 pm

#47 JSS on 02.09.20 at 7:01 pm

Does anyone have any experience investing in Centurion REIT? They’re a privately held REIT investing in apartment building and student housing to name a few.
I think it’s minimum $25K investment.

————————-

Never, never, never invest in a private REIT. Don’t do it. I briefly looked at their website, saw deferred sales charges, and could stay no longer.

Buy the index. XRE.TO would do you.

Again… don’t.

#57 heloguy on 02.09.20 at 7:52 pm

I’m sure I’ve posted this before but the old joke from early 80’s Edmonton was, “What would you rather have, syphillis or a condo? The answer of course is syphillis because you can get rid of it.”

#58 Lost...but not leased on 02.09.20 at 7:53 pm

I’m glad MF and their civil servant family cabal have condo insurance in their taxpayer funded quadruple -digit benefit package….

…..otherwise they would likely go on strike(but as usual….NO ONE would notice)

#59 Unpaid Leave on 02.09.20 at 8:04 pm

The coronavirus has prompted Hong Kong’s Cathay Pacific airline to call for its 27,000 employees to take three weeks of unpaid leave.

Probably nothing.

#60 Lost...but not leased on 02.09.20 at 8:09 pm

#36 crowdedelevatorfartz on 02.09.20 at 5:51 pm
“What to do?”

++++
Rent.

The first week of Jan 2020 I renewed the 1992 1 ton cube van for the business.
I bitched at the Autoplan Insurer about the exorbitant ICBC rates ( $3600 for one year, No fire, no theft, no collision)

============

Do you deliver sheep???

#61 crowdedelevatorfartz on 02.09.20 at 8:23 pm

@#55 Ustabe
“Amazing, actually”
++++++

Admit it. You wish you were me…. :)

#62 Lurking on 02.09.20 at 8:29 pm

The scenario where the condo owner can be made to pay the $50000 strata deductible even though there’s no fault, is actually not as bad as what I have heard of. There are multiple cases in BC where the deductible is now 500000 or more. Condo owners insurance can barely be found to protect for that, if at all. Most providers limit the amount to a much lower value. Still, I guess it’s still better than when there’s no insurance available… that is truly scary.

#63 crowdedelevatorfartz on 02.09.20 at 8:31 pm

@#60 Lost but not leased
” Do you deliver sheep?”

+++++

No, but in your case I might be able to make an exception , possibly stuff a live animal in with the supplies and tools.

Is your sheep a pet or dinner?

#64 Nonplused on 02.09.20 at 8:34 pm

Well, as Garth has said many times and I have agreed every single time, you should not own real estate with someone you aren’t sleeping with, unless it is a limited liability business venture, and even then it doesn’t go without lawyers. Have you met people? Do you understand them? Have you ever lent a friend money in the bar? Why on earth would you jointly own property with them? Better to live in a van you own yourself.

You can’t even trust your own family in business dealings and any such dealings will eventually ruin Christmas. Your own family will try and front-run the will and take your parents stuff and money without your consent. And you want to jointly own property with a bunch of strangers? Good luck with that.

Condos are for suckers. Owning a piece of dirt is better, although you are still in bed with the municipality. But at least the rich people who fund the campaigns also own property, so you won’t get done any worse than them.

But I think there is more to this. Insurance companies operate on a pretty complex business model. They collect premiums, sorted and priced by risk. But then they put the money collected in all manner of investments including government bonds and some stocks and hope the money they make off the investments makes them competitive so they can make a profit and pay out legitimate claims. It’s not just about spreading the risk, profit is part of it too. So what happens when interest rates go to near zero and stocks are trading at all time P/E highs? No profit for the insurance companies same as the problem for pension funds. In a near zero profit world insurance companies have to charge what they would have to if the premiums were their only source of income.

Welcome to the zero profit world folks. It will get worse. Condo insurance is just the start. Eventually Garth is going to have to self-insure his Harley because nobody will touch that either. Plan for a day when you don’t own anything you need to insure, other than liability, and even that is going to get very costly.

#65 Lost...but not leased on 02.09.20 at 8:35 pm

FYI:

Coronavirus is PATENTED..

So was EBOLA…

If the minority on this blog really want to do their homework…the “SPANISH FLU” originated in a US bio lab over 100 years ago…US soldiers were the guinea pigs….

FFS….wake up…

#66 Nonplused on 02.09.20 at 8:49 pm

Oh and I forgot to add, that in the same way condos are becoming “un-insurable”, so are cars. So what happens when people can’t get a car loan even at zero percent because they can’t afford the insurance? You have to insure a car to get a car loan. And when we get to that point it won’t matter what the dealer discounts are. It has always been the case that you cannot get a car loan unless you can insure the vehicle. Those rates have, and are continuing, to skyrocket. And it doesn’t help that if you knock a running board off on a snow bank it is $2000 to put it back on.

#67 crazyfox on 02.09.20 at 9:04 pm

A quick update for the Corona virus:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-cases/

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

These numbers look good, about as good as one can hope for, I think. The trend of infected continues to be downward for 5 days now in terms of daily case numbers and daily percentage of infected. We are down to 8% daily growth of the total aggregate of confirmed cases of Corona virus tonight, easily attributed to the extraordinary efforts of all involved.

Of course, this comes with a tremendous economic and social cost. SARS cost the world .5% of annual GDP for 1 year when it hit, if I’m not mistaken. Corona will be costlier but by how much?

In hindsight, the move to impose quarantines in China during it’s NY holiday looks strategic as it lessens the financial blow to trade. Chinese New Year holidays began on Jan 22nd and is over on Feb 9th from what I gather so the trade impacts won’t truly be felt until tomorrow. Under normal circumstances, the people of China would be back to work tomorrow. Now, the news leaking out of China is that all major ports and factories will remain closed across China until at least the 17th of February. This is why it’s so important to watch these numbers coming in daily.

As the daily trend of infected continues to drop, the Chinese government will be more compelled to allow ports and factories to re-open potentially in increments first in provinces with the least cases or potentially even all at once except for ground zero Wuhan in Hubei, its difficult to say. It will depend on the numbers.

Factories could re-open in some provinces on Feb 17th, or 24th, or March 1st and the numbers and level of risk will determine the choice. It could be that if the trend of confirmed cases of Corona continue to drop that by March 2nd, most factories will be back to work but this is speculative.

The true cost to the Chinese economy will come down to how many weeks factories remain closed starting tomorrow. If one goes by world share of Chinese PPP GDP, (19.2%) we would divide the number of the weeks of the year into that number. Missing 3 weeks out of 52 in a Chinese economy straight up is a 1.1% global drop in GDP (and it won’t be straight up, guessing maybe 80% of 1.1% = .88%) but this doesn’t factor in the costs and disruptions in global export/import supply chains outside of China meaning that number would at minimum double as all trade is 2 way. It could be a factor of 3 or higher meaning a 2.65% drop in global GDP or more.

3 weeks of shuttered exports (to March 2nd) would leave… just spitballing here, a possible Q1 GDP hit guessing again… 18% from China’s current GDP at 6% meaning -12% GDP for Q1 and the clock starts tomorrow so the numbers of Corona virus cases reported in the links above, they matter since these numbers will have every influence on when and in what stages the Chinese government allows it’s people to go back to work. Just trying to give some kind of perspective in terms of cost.

#68 Doug t on 02.09.20 at 9:10 pm

Condolences on your recent purchase

#69 JSS on 02.09.20 at 9:15 pm

#56 Sail Away.

Thank you.

#70 Sean on 02.09.20 at 9:24 pm

Owners of rental condos are going to be very butt-hurt if these strata fee and insurance fee increases can’t be passed on to tenants due to rent controls.

#71 Lost...but not leased on 02.09.20 at 9:50 pm

We have a virus much MUCH worse than
Coronavirus…MF…. and/or anti -gravity Fartzmann..

It is called Actuarial Liability Syndrome(ALS)..

If you have ALS….the symptoms lead to of Acquired Insurance Deficit(AID).

….if you are diagonosed with ALS…then AID… you are SOL…..

#72 MF on 02.09.20 at 9:55 pm

#65 Lost…but not leased on 02.09.20 at 8:35 pm

#73 MF on 02.09.20 at 9:57 pm

#65 Lost…but not leased on 02.09.20 at 8:35 pm

“If the minority on this blog really want to do their homework…the “SPANISH FLU” originated in a US bio lab over 100 years ago…US soldiers were the guinea pigs….

FFS….wake up…”

-Must have been pretty difficult to do that since we didn’t even know what DNA looked like until the 40’s…

MF

#74 Yukon Elvis on 02.09.20 at 10:01 pm

#64 Nonplused on 02.09.20 at 8:34 pm
But I think there is more to this. Insurance companies operate on a pretty complex business model. They collect premiums, sorted and priced by risk. But then they put the money collected in all manner of investments including government bonds and some stocks and hope the money they make off the investments makes them competitive so they can make a profit and pay out legitimate claims. It’s not just about spreading the risk, profit is part of it too. So what happens when interest rates go to near zero and stocks are trading at all time P/E highs? No profit for the insurance companies same as the problem for pension funds. In a near zero profit world insurance companies have to charge what they would have to if the premiums were their only source of income.
……………..
I was going to post almost exactly what you stated until I scrolled to your post. I am surprised that it has taken this long for premiums to rise. I wonder when pension plans will start raising premiums, reducing benefits, or just fail altogether.

#75 akashic record on 02.09.20 at 10:09 pm

#70 Sean on 02.09.20 at 9:24 pm

Owners of rental condos are going to be very butt-hurt if these strata fee and insurance fee increases can’t be passed on to tenants due to rent controls.

All cost increase finds their way to customers eventually. Capital doesn’t subsidize.

#76 Smoking Man on 02.09.20 at 10:25 pm

Rent, Invest…$$$$

#77 Sail Away on 02.09.20 at 10:30 pm

#69 JSS on 02.09.20 at 9:15 pm
#56 Sail Away.

Thank you.

————————

You’re welcome. It’s good to own publicly-traded REITs. There’s a guy at canadiandividendinvesting.com who gives decent info on the available options.

#78 Sail Away on 02.09.20 at 10:34 pm

#60 Lost…but not leased on 02.09.20 at 8:09 pm
#36 crowdedelevatorfartz on 02.09.20 at 5:51 pm
“What to do?”

++++
Rent.

The first week of Jan 2020 I renewed the 1992 1 ton cube van for the business.
I bitched at the Autoplan Insurer about the exorbitant ICBC rates ( $3600 for one year, No fire, no theft, no collision)

============

Do you deliver sheep???

——————-

Lost, what, exactly are your intentions with this sheep?

#79 Marcella Zoia on 02.09.20 at 10:40 pm

Apartment REITs are not condos. – Garth

______________________________________

Just wait until I throw a chair off an apartment building.

Yours truly,
Marcella Zoia aka Chair Girl, Mami x0x0 and Drake’s gf 4 life!

#80 Dragonslayer on 02.09.20 at 11:35 pm

Any indication this will bleed into townhouse insurance or even SFH insurance?Can’t see why it wouldn’t….

#81 Piano_Man87 on 02.09.20 at 11:37 pm

Garth,

Let’s say you bought a condo. Then it became uninsurable – due to poor building quality/poor maintenance (I assume that’s what happened with the Burnaby one).

If someone lost hundreds of thousands because of this, couldn’t an owner sell the condo, and sue for the difference of what they bought it for? Either the builder or the board? You could prove damages.

#82 Hecomesinpeace on 02.09.20 at 11:46 pm

Garth, your hatred for aspiring early retirees is bizarre but others hey I love you man. A couple weeks ago you berated someone wanting to retire with I believe 900K and paid off house in early 40’s. I agree that is way too skinny. What about late 40’s, $2.2Mil, paid off house in cheapo Edmonton? Asking for a friend…..

#83 Karlhungus on 02.10.20 at 12:00 am

Alright well i own 2 condos in Edmonton. What do I do now? Sell at a huge loss or ride out the storm? Both are rented out and cashflow.

#84 Mattl on 02.10.20 at 12:02 am

This smells like fear mongering to me, but if true and widespread, these costs will be passed on to renters.

I guess we can expect rental prices to climb dramatically – no one is going to build into an environment where prices can go to zero. That means further pressure on inventory levels and accompanying rent increases.

Also not sure why commercial properties would be immune. A tower in Van with 300 commercial units will face the same pressure as a similarly sized residential building. Or maybe commercial properties don’t flood or burn?

#85 Hawk on 02.10.20 at 1:07 am

@70 Shawn:

Rent controls do not prevent a Landlord from increasing rent of their expenses increase. Yes it requires the encumbrance of going through the LTB, if the tenant objects, but eventually the increase rent will be permitted due to increased costs. And most of the major landlords have corporations to pursue the tenant in court.

But as I mentioned earlier if anyone buys a condo expecting their fees will not increase by a fair amount, every few years then the expectation itself is not reasonable. Ask a detached home owner, what it costs to maintain a $1 million property in Toronto each year (hint it’s a bit more than a small 1 BR Condo).

#86 Nonplused on 02.10.20 at 1:43 am

#70 Sean

True that. All insurance, taxes, interest, utilities, capital costs, and maintenance must ultimately be paid by the end user, whether it be a taxi cab, a condo, a tow truck, a dentist, or a pomegranate. There is no such thing as a free lunch and there is no such thing as a way to make someone else pay.

#87 the ryguy - In cabo on 02.10.20 at 2:04 am

My very first foray into real estate was a building in Kelowna called discovery bay. This would have been 2003-04 ish Im guessing. The place was awesome..right on the water, walk to downtown, huge pools, hot tubs etc.

There were 200+ units..place was almost completely empty during the year..but once summer rolled around man that was place packed. Lucky for me I was one of the 50 or so people that lived there year round..because in 06 or 07 one day we all got letters..saying the city was pulling the occupancy permit because the building wasn’t structurally sound. Huh?

Literally within a week they had cops doing daily door knocks telling people to get out..this place could actually collapse. It turned out the building was sinking..like it was actually sinking, and there was enough shifting in the foundation that the engineering firm sounded the alarm.

Like I said I was one of the few that had the condo as my primary residence, so I was reasonably well compensated by new home owners association. The rest of the owners were not, and got nothing. I know they planned a class action, I couldn’t tell you how or if it ever got going.

Anyway, we were kicked out for almost 2 years. They literally took out every piece of drywall and reinforced everything. I knew one of the guys working and asked him if I could sneak in and run speaker wire through my place while the drywall was off..he let me, and I could see from one side of the building to the other. Like it was kinda hard to figure out which unit was mine as there were no walls or doors, the whole thing was stripped to the frame. Its amazing how much work it took.

I know the city insisted on two different firms to sign off on it before they would reissue the occupancy permits.. we the residents were told the place was over engineered now and could withstand a nuke. Lol.. I had a 2&2, before the refurb my fees were like $220/month. When I got back they were $450 and soon increased to $550. I sold shortly after and promised I would never buy a condo again.

I just did a quick look online and the 2&2s for sale today are asking just a hair higher than I got back in 2009-10. Yikes, condos suck.

#88 crazyfox on 02.10.20 at 2:21 am

#67 crazyfox on 02.09.20 at 9:04 pm

Missing 3 weeks out of 52 in a Chinese economy straight up is a 1.1% global drop in GDP (and it won’t be straight up, guessing maybe 80% of 1.1% = .88%) but this doesn’t factor in the costs and disruptions in global export/import supply chains outside of China meaning that number would at minimum double as all trade is 2 way. It could be a factor of 3 or higher meaning a 2.65% drop in global GDP or more. – crazyfox

80%… sober second thought says that’s too high a number… somewhere between 60 and 70%, maybe closer to 70%:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/270327/distribution-of-the-workforce-across-economic-sectors-in-china/

Some are still working, everyone still has to eat, pay rent, , utilities, make payments, but most in China won’t be earning so there will be a lag in spending once people get back to work, less disposable income.

Quick correction on the cost of SARS, it wasn’t .5% of global GDP. According to world bank, the total cost of SARS was $54 billion in 2003, a much smaller fraction of world GDP but I digress, lets rework the numbers, I made another mistake that begs for correction.

Using the same premise, if major ports and factories in China remain on lock down for 3 weeks (to March 2nd), the cost of a $ 14.14 trillion dollar economy (USD) shutting down 70% of the flow of money for 3 weeks out of 52 = .0577 x .7 = -4.04% of annual GDP with a cost of $571 billion leaving China with a ballpark 2% annualized growth and Q1 @ -10% GDP. If these numbers are close, this is a big hit for China.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/268750/global-gross-domestic-product-gdp/

According to the above stats, world GDP was estimated in 2019 to be around 86.6 trillion. 571 billion divided by 86.6 trillion = -0.66% of global GDP. From there, it gets more interesting:

China had 2.135 trillion in imports and 2.465 trillion in exports for combined trade of 4.6 trillion in annualized trade. 4.04% of 4.6 trillion = $ 184 billion in lost GDP by other nations. Add this trade loss to China’s lost and lost global GDP is $755 billion getting us closer to -0.877% of world GDP. This doesn’t factor in service industry losses between Jan 23rd and Feb 10th in China, or supply chain losses in other nations from halted imports/exports and travel or the extra hands trade money circulates in such as financials that further add to global GDP. Factor these considerations in, all things considered, it still looks like a 1.1%, maybe as high as 1.3% hit to global GDP from the Corona virus if China’s main sea ports and factories remain on lock down until March 2nd. Time will tell.

#89 Graeme on 02.10.20 at 3:04 am

Ours is up 70% in coquitlam on a 5-year old building. The cries for gov’t intervention here are deafening… wait for it!!

#90 Westcdn on 02.10.20 at 5:09 am

Another rant from moi… Condos for the win in T.O., I really wonder if they know how cloistered they are. I wonder how much more money Albertans are going to have to cough up to support stupidity.

Now I hear Toronto will kill the Teck plan for “tar oil” development approval on the altar of carbon emissions. I doubt Teck would go given economics. But the Libs are going to send us “aid” as compensation – thank you Jesus and your wonders (sarc).

I am tired of being called up for other people’s hypocrisy. Oh, time to hang another dead horse for them to beat on. Also, please save the oceans while you justify your existence – like, nothing wrong with sending containers of plastic to other countries so they can dump it in the oceans.

#91 Bar None on 02.10.20 at 5:52 am

BANNED

#92 Howard on 02.10.20 at 6:18 am

Pretty sure the end result of this is government home insurance. That way the condo industry is saved and taxpayers get to pay for it all when things go awry. Losses will be socialized yet again.

#93 under the radar on 02.10.20 at 7:03 am

unit owners typically have coverage in their own policies which include payment of the condo corp’s deductible where there is damage to the common elements.Nothing new . Your lawyer should be telling you this before you close.
Insurance is a problem not just for Condo Corp’s but for all multi unit buildings including REITS.

#94 Phylis on 02.10.20 at 7:11 am

SM’s posts are starting to scare me.

#95 Steven Rowlandson on 02.10.20 at 7:12 am

Re#50
If the residential rental industry goes titters due to lack of insurance and excessive rents then there has to be a mass movement out of Canada or one into single family
homes that are price regulated to a price range under 3 years pay at minimum wage for one income earner. No more free or auction markets for homes. No more committing genocide by screwing over the poor and working classes. This is how it has to be if Canada is to grow again economically and demographically without genocide and fiscal stupidity.

#96 NoName on 02.10.20 at 7:18 am

@crazy fox

Strategically chosen to pretend that everything is ok until everything is closed anyway… That is exactly what happened so now whole world is paying price.

Every non incompetent ceo was or is talking supply chain now days, especially since dems imploded last week trying to un MAGA.

People are restless all over the place, france is on going for over a year bregxit, some funny stuff in germany, greece few bigger to mention, and my favorite sweeden, where criminals progressed to using home made kabooms instead of.firearms… No wonder why Little girl likes to be anywhere else instead of her own country.

How are benefits at Pravda?

#97 jack on 02.10.20 at 7:50 am

Or perhaps the insurers were under-pricing condo insurance all along; Knowing that once they had enough people by the balls they would jack the rates, recover their losses quickly, and rake it in for the next 50 years.
Same thing with IT cloud service providers … it used to be marketed as a money saving option for businesses . Now they’ve jacked their rates and it’s marketed as “similar cost but more features”, soon to be “well it’s more expensive, but you don’t have any talent or infrastructure anymore so you’re SOL”.

#98 Useless on 02.10.20 at 8:04 am

What realistically could the government do to save the sheeple? They will do whatever they can to keep the party going.

#99 shane on 02.10.20 at 8:09 am

Garth, I have about 25k to that I have in a GIC till I decide where to put it. With your expertise where should I place it?

#100 NoName on 02.10.20 at 8:26 am

Interesting read,

“Well of course everyone knew that!” I didn’t.

https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/202x/2020/02/09/Why-Android

i dident get much of it, but its very interesting.

https://deepmind.com/blog/article/Dopamine-and-temporal-difference-learning-A-fruitful-relationship-between-neuroscience-and-AI

#101 dakkie on 02.10.20 at 8:28 am

DELETED

#102 NoName on 02.10.20 at 8:31 am

And this 2nd coming of man to moon, would be so MAGA…

https://www.wclk.com/post/moon-landing-2024-nasa-says-itll-happen-others-say-no-way

#103 crowdedelevatorfartz on 02.10.20 at 8:33 am

@#96 Phylis
” SM comments are starting to scare me”

+++++
Why?

Because “rent, invest, $$$$$”

Makes sense…..

#104 Rossi46 on 02.10.20 at 8:39 am

Townhouses same as condos because you can hear your next door neighbour?

Have you noticed how close the new detatched are to each other?

Same issues in either case, although your neighbour in a townhouse is heating one side of your residence.

#105 Bar. None on 02.10.20 at 8:53 am

BANNED

#106 Dharma Bum on 02.10.20 at 8:59 am

Tell me where did I go wrong?
Tell me Condo, Condo, Condoooooooo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=128LI6_4L-s

#107 Stan Brooks on 02.10.20 at 9:03 am

Rich and wealthy condo owners who choose to pay thousands per square feet should not worry about the massive increases in insurance premiums and condo repair deductibles.

Remember, that tiny, noisy, leaky, non-insulated glass condo has ‘value’ folks. Just image what the carbon tax on that piece of jewel will be 10 years from now. Priceless investment ensuring endless continuation of the liberal way of life/taxation.

So stop complaining, find a forth job (3 needed just for the mortgage) to pay for the increased maintenance and taxes and be happy that it ends there/for now.

The ‘high, sophisticated standard of living’ justifies the high price, folks.

Cheers,

#108 NotLegalAdvice on 02.10.20 at 9:04 am

So let’s have it. What are the three things you think Matt should be imparting to his students? How can we save them from themselves?

Grade 11 was just a little over a year ago for me. At that age, you can teach the students about mortgage rates and borrowing costs, but they don’t care about all that. It’ll go in on ear and out the other.

What you want to teach is the basics.

1) What a TFSA is.
2) How to invest money into a TFSA properly.
3) Credit Cards – THIS IS NOT FREE MONEY.

#109 Phylis on 02.10.20 at 9:36 am

#103 crowdedelevatorfartz on 02.10.20 at 8:33 am
@#96 Phylis
” SM comments are starting to scare me”

+++++
Why?

Because “rent, invest, $$$$$”

Makes sense…..

…………….
Exactly that.

#110 crowdedelevatorfartz on 02.10.20 at 9:37 am

@#107 Stan the Man
“…..find a forth job (3 needed just for the mortgage)”
++++
Geez I did’nt know spellcheck knew the word “forth” as in ” go forth and prosper”

Not to be confused with ” That was the fourth time I told you that!”
Or
The even more confusing
“forethought is just as valuable as foresight”

As Homer Simpson would say,
“stupid spellcheck.”

#111 Sail Away on 02.10.20 at 9:42 am

#147 Tater on 02.07.20 at 9:06 am

Tesla short entry point moved up to 687. Hoping it goes sideways for a week or 2 before breaking though.

—————————–

Is that the reason it’s up 10% this morning to 820?

Or is that another anomaly? Those anomalies sure are adding up one after another after another, and all opposite your predictions for at least 2 years now.

#112 TurnerNation on 02.10.20 at 9:42 am

Typical, Insurance Krocodile Tears here in Canada.

INTACT Insurance stock price is at all time highs!! Like I said this is a scam to enslave and control us. Insurance.

(Is anyone surprised? Kanada is an offshoot colony for the Queen’s Bankers. Always was)
……

2020-02-06 10:10 C:IFC Intact Financial Corp 153.44 News Release Intact arranges $125-million preferred share offering
2020-02-04 18:05 C:IFC Intact Financial Corp 145.76 News Release Intact Financial earns $754M in 2019, boosts dividend

#113 Stan Brooks on 02.10.20 at 10:11 am

#110 crowdedelevatorfartz on 02.10.20 at 9:37 am

I also wrote:
‘thousands per square feet’ , it should be:
‘thousands per square foot.’.

Strange that you missed that. What is happening to this country?

Cheers,

#114 The Wet One on 02.10.20 at 11:05 am

BTW,

If climate change goes badly enough (which it appears that it will from all indications), this will be the same issue for single family homebuyers in hard hit areas (wherever climate disasters become standard regular fare).

The most interesting part of this, is that this whole insurance imbroglio is already caused by climate change. Or did you think that the massive forest fire in Ft. Mac was just a regular event? The kind that now happens just about annually (California, Australia, Alberta the first time in Slave Lake and so on).

I’m not entirely sure that the property insurance market can handle it. Soon, in some places, no one will be able to get insurance and let’s just see how that impacts the property market. I’m thinking Florida (all of 3 feet above sea level), the coastal U.S. (remember how New York got pounded by that hurricane?) and other high property value areas (like Martha’s Vineyard).

Let the good times roll!

This is already starting to be priced in. The US is particularly vulnerable where lenders grant 30-year mortgages on properties that might be full of fish in three decades. – Garth

#115 BC_Doc on 02.10.20 at 11:07 am

What’s to stop insurers from also turning the screws on the owners of single family dwellings? I hope my home owners insurance premium doesn’t increase similarly.

It’s all about risk. There is far more in a multi-unit building where half or more of the spaces are occupied by those pesky tenants. – Garth

#116 Grandma's Garden on 02.10.20 at 11:18 am

Anyone jumping on the condo train is about a decade late – most urban RE on a little piece of dirt for that matter.

Land folks, buy land. Looking ahead, a modest house on a few acres with a large garden will hold far more value than a concrete casket in the sky.

#117 Sail Away on 02.10.20 at 11:41 am

#114 The Wet One on 02.10.20 at 11:05 am
BTW,

If climate change goes badly enough (which it appears that it will from all indications), this will be the same issue for single family homebuyers in hard hit areas (wherever climate disasters become standard regular fare).

“This is already starting to be priced in. The US is particularly vulnerable where lenders grant 30-year mortgages on properties that might be full of fish in three decades. – Garth”

——————————-

Relax, the end is not yet nigh (yet again):

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/579478/

The context was that of issuing a 30-year mortgage. So why the ink? – Garth

#118 IHCTD9 on 02.10.20 at 11:50 am

GTA condo – 5-600K for a nice 1 bedder, and maybe 4-500.00/mo condo fee. You need about 100K+ income to get a mortgage for this amount – and 100K is double the individual median income in Toronto.

In fact you need to make 83K just to rent a decent 1 bed apartment in Toronto.

^That’s insane enough, but I think prices can go up even more yet, if the Libs do increase new buyer purchasing power through policy – rates might drop too. Might only be a couple years before a nice new 1 bed condo costs 700K with an 7-800.00/mo. fee lol!

Right now, single earners in Toronto will never own any kind of RE. Regular married folks can get a condo or maybe stretch for a crummy sfd. You could live with 10 extended family members and all contribute to the mortgage like some do, but that is essentially a shade tree condo system where the board members include your Mother in Law, and 2nd cousins.

Sounds like a go nowhere crap existence to me for most peeps. I’d take a pay cut to go where I won’t arrive at retirement broke and with no assets. It’s my life, and I want to be in the drivers seat. Not to mention the lifestyle and health increases afforded by getting the hades out of the GTA for good.

#119 SunDays on 02.10.20 at 11:53 am

#41 Dave on 02.09.20 at 6:03 pm
…But what does one do if they live in Vancouver, TO, or Victoria when they can’t afford a home and there are not many decent rental options?
———-
If one lives in Toronto and doesn’t work in high finance or in the public sector then leaving is the best option.

#120 IHCTD9 on 02.10.20 at 12:00 pm

#115 BC_Doc on 02.10.20 at 11:07 am
What’s to stop insurers from also turning the screws on the owners of single family dwellings? I hope my home owners insurance premium doesn’t increase similarly.
___

Funny you should ask. After years of hearing we might receive a “visit” from you Ins. Co., this spring, they mailed a letter, called and set a date, and sent in an inspector.

A week or two later I got mail saying the insured value of my house was not sufficient to cover the cost of rebuilding. Also, I had to do some roofing.

My rates went up 250.00/year or so because of this “cost to rebuild” thing.

No biggie though, I was paying less than I thought I should for the last 10 years or so. The whole rigmarole with the inspection and all that was never more than part of an exercise to raise my rates (ie. the real reason they showed up, and the only reason IMHO).

#121 If your house is paid off ... on 02.10.20 at 12:09 pm

#115 BC_Doc on 02.10.20 at 11:07 am
What’s to stop insurers from also turning the screws on the owners of single family dwellings? I hope my home owners insurance premium doesn’t increase similarly.
—————————————————–
You have the option to deny insurance. Not so with condo’s, you are at their mercy.

#122 Barb on 02.10.20 at 12:23 pm

My late Mother’s townhouse was one of 18 units in her North Okanagan complex.

Two of their rules were important: proof in writing of owner’s insurance was to be provided annually to the board, and units could only be owner/family-occupied. Rentals were not allowed under any circumstances.

She paid $98/mo strata fee in 2016 that increased to $111 the next year. The board gave owners a year’s notice for a $3,000 charge per unit for new roofing that included eavestrough replacement.

#123 Sail away on 02.10.20 at 12:26 pm

#117 Sail Away on 02.10.20 at 11:41 am
#114 The Wet One on 02.10.20 at 11:05 am

BTW,

If climate change goes badly enough (which it appears that it will from all indications), this will be the same issue for single family homebuyers in hard hit areas (wherever climate disasters become standard regular fare).

“This is already starting to be priced in. The US is particularly vulnerable where lenders grant 30-year mortgages on properties that might be full of fish in three decades. – Garth”
——————————-
Relax, the end is not yet nigh (yet again):

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/579478/

The context was that of issuing a 30-year mortgage. So why the ink? – Garth

——————

Oh, you meant the homeowners would have lots of aquariums?

My mistake. I thought you were suggesting oceans would rise within 30 years and submerge the houses.

It’s about risk. Mortgage lenders are rethinking decades-long loans in coastal areas. Try to keep up. – Garth

#124 IHCTD9 on 02.10.20 at 12:42 pm

#107 Stan Brooks on 02.10.20 at 9:03 am

…The ‘high, sophisticated standard of living’ justifies the high price, folks.

Cheers,
___

Yes, that’s the marketing shtick isn’t it. They forget to mention that by the time you hit 40, living in a glass birdhouse ain’t so sophisticated anymore.

When you get older, your sense of “smell” improves. You start smelling BS floating on the wind. A job is just a job. You’re nothing more than another stiff trying to make a living after 40 – just like those doorknobs who convinced you to pay a premium for that condo 10 years ago. You start thinking about retirement, and looking at your bank account…

#125 JB on 02.10.20 at 12:48 pm

#76 Smoking Man on 02.09.20 at 10:25 pm

Rent, Invest…$$$$
_________________________________________
What? Coming from the guy who apparently bought a $1M plus home on the beach in Corona Del Mar? You renting or buying Smoking guy? Do you pay heed to your own advice? You are very enigmatic in your statement.

#126 JB on 02.10.20 at 12:50 pm

#121 If your house is paid off … on 02.10.20 at 12:09 pm

#115 BC_Doc on 02.10.20 at 11:07 am
What’s to stop insurers from also turning the screws on the owners of single family dwellings? I hope my home owners insurance premium doesn’t increase similarly.
—————————————————–
You have the option to deny insurance. Not so with condo’s, you are at their mercy.
____________________________________________
Insurance is what will kill the condo lifestyle with the outrageous premiums and the insane deductibles. Good luck boomers, your all going to be eating cat food.

#127 Josh in Calgary on 02.10.20 at 12:56 pm

I’ve long held the opinion that owning condos is not the prudent thing to do. I’ve just known far too many people who have been issued special assessments and been forced to cough up cash. If you want to live in a condo it’s far wiser to rent. Even if there are increases in strata fees that are added to your rent you have the ability to move along if you so choose.

Yes you can be hit with unexpected repair bills in a single family house too, but at least you have control over the situation. And you’re in charge of the maintenance, so you can mitigate unexpected repairs if you take good care of your place. Not to mention it’s much easier to assess a house before you buy it compared to a whole condo building. And on that note there’ve been far too many stories in the news about shady condo developers who cut so many corners knowing that they’ll be long gone by the time things start to fall apart.

Also, someone mentioned the possibility of insurance going up on single family houses too. I think this is already starting to happen. My old insurance company tried to increase my insurance 100% in one go. They didn’t sound too surprised when I told them I was switching companies (still with an increase, but not nearly as much).

#128 JB on 02.10.20 at 1:31 pm

#116 Grandma’s Garden on 02.10.20 at 11:18 am

Anyone jumping on the condo train is about a decade late – most urban RE on a little piece of dirt for that matter.

Land folks, buy land. Looking ahead, a modest house on a few acres with a large garden will hold far more value than a concrete casket in the sky.
………………………………………………………………….
Value is in the eye of the beholder but condos are just shiny objects that confuse dumb people. I was once dumb and decided to cut my losses long before this condo craze started.

#129 Lost...but not leased on 02.10.20 at 2:15 pm

Re: Condos and insurance…

I think one major aspect, at least here in Lower Mainland of BC…..is many condos are effectively empty for most of the year.

My understanding is insurers will not insure these empty strata units(or SFH).

Albeit these condos do have some full time owners..but perhaps insurers are simply trying to address this phenomena. The other irony is one would think the condo boom would enrich the insurers bottom line with more clientele, but instead they view it as greater risk.

#130 NotLegalAdvice on 02.10.20 at 2:23 pm

“Grade 11 was just a little over a year ago for me”

CORRECTION – Just a little over 11 years for me*****

Sorry, it was still very early in the morning !

#131 Blacksheep on 02.10.20 at 2:30 pm

Re: Feb/8 Crazy # 88,

“I think it would be an incredible mistake to dismiss Trudeau’s foreign aid and visit to Africa as a pure waste of money with the wave of a hand.”

“While tackling the burden of overpopulation, African economies will need investment to raise their people out of poverty but there are worthy ventures to invest in with Africa.”
———————————————–
Raising the standard of living for those in poverty, outside of Canada, Is a noble cause.

Unfortunately, Canada has some major social issues of our own that need to be addressed before Sock Boy fly’s around the planet dispersing our hard earned tax $’s, playing the hero (buying a UN seat?)

The major cities in Canada have thousands and thousands of people, living with out permanent shelter.

Lets suspend foreign aid until we get them off the street and into: 1) permanent housing 2) drug rehab 3) psychological support 4) employment support 5) or for those performing criminal acts, incarceration.

These people would be empowered and given dignity, being now able choose multiples of the five options and get their lives back on track, but the old behaviors of: Open drug use, begging, stealing or sleeping in public places, would no longer be one of them.

It’s time we start behaving like the first world country we claim to be. Tourism is big deal in Canada, what do we think guests believe when they see how we ignore the most vulnerable amongst us?

Trudeau and the provincial leaders, really should be ashamed….

#132 jess on 02.10.20 at 2:34 pm

flipper streets?

Homesnap’s new platform guesses when people will move
-crunches data to show which homes in a neighborhood are the most likely to be listed for sale in the next 12 months.

#133 Sail away on 02.10.20 at 2:45 pm

DELETED.

#134 G on 02.10.20 at 3:07 pm

Coronavirus Epidemic Update 14: Hospital spread of infection, WHO allowed in China, N-95 masks Feb10 14min
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDnmHu8x9C4

#135 Lost...but not leased on 02.10.20 at 3:07 pm

If condos get hit with ever increasing premiums…perhaps this will lay the foundation for them to ultimately become rental units…aka owners will bail and REIT’s snap them up ???

#136 Long-Time Lurker on 02.10.20 at 3:09 pm

>For the record.

>Some highlights. Part 1.

>Speculating on the HIV-Influenza Virus (Indian Scientific Paper, previously reported) [biological weapon] hypothesis, I wonder if the symptoms indicate the virus attacking the immune system. Note the decline in lymphocytes and destroyed immune system.

>I further speculate that anti-viral intervention in the initial disease stage of fever/week 1 would prevent further progression of the syndrome and greatly reduce the chances of mortality.

Reporter’s Notebook: Life and death in a Wuhan coronavirus ICU

PUBLISHED
FEB 6, 2020, 4:40 PM SGT

Translated by Sun Huixia and Dave Yin

WUHAN (CAIXIN GLOBAL) – In the coronavirus epidemic, doctors on the front lines take on the greatest risk and best understand the situation. Dr Peng Zhiyong, director of acute medicine at the Wuhan University South Central Hospital, is one of those doctors.

In an interview on Tuesday with Caixin, Dr Peng described his personal experiences in first encountering the disease in early January and quickly grasping its virulent potential and the need for stringent quarantine measures…

…I’ve observed that the breakout period of the novel coronavirus tends to be three weeks, from the onset of symptoms to developing difficulties breathing. Basically going from mild to severe symptoms takes about a week. There are all sorts of mild symptoms: feebleness, shortness of breath, some people have fevers, some don’t. Based on studies of our 138 cases, the most common symptoms in the first stage are fever (98.6 per cent of cases), feebleness (69.6 per cent), cough (59.4 per cent), muscle pains (34.8 per cent), difficulties breathing (31.2%), while less common symptoms include headaches, dizziness, stomach pain, diarrhea, nausea, vomiting.

But some patients who enter the second week will suddenly get worse. At this stage, people should go to the hospital. The elderly with underlying conditions may develop complications; some may need machine-assisted respiration. When the body’s other organs start to fail, that’s when it becomes severe, while those with strong immune systems see their symptoms decrease in severity at this stage and gradually recover. So the second week is what determines whether the illness becomes critical.

The third week determines whether critical illness leads to death. Some in critical condition who receive treatment can raise their level of lymphocytes, a type of white blood cell, and see an improvement in their immune systems, and have been brought back, so to speak. But those whose lymphocyte numbers continue to decline, those whose immune systems are destroyed in the end, experience multiple organ failure and die.

For most, the illness is over in two weeks, whereas for those for whom the illness becomes severe, if they can survive three weeks, they’re good. Those that can’t will die in three weeks…

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/reporters-notebook-life-and-death-in-a-wuhan-coronavirus-icu

#137 Long-Time Lurker on 02.10.20 at 3:10 pm

>Some highlights. Part 2.

Reporter’s Notebook: Life and death in a Wuhan coronavirus ICU

PUBLISHED
FEB 6, 2020, 4:40 PM SGT

Translated by Sun Huixia and Dave Yin

…Peng: Based on my clinical observations, this disease is highly contagious, but the mortality rate is low. Those that progressed into the life-threatening stage often occurred in the elderly already with chronic diseases.

As of Jan 28, of 138 cases, 36 were in the ICU, 28 recovered, five died. That is to say, the mortality rate of patients with severe conditions was 3.6 per cent. Yesterday (Feb 3), another patient died, bringing the mortality rate to 4.3 per cent. Given patients in the ICU, it is likely to have more deaths. The mortality rate is also likely to edge up but not significantly.

Those hospitalised tend to have severe or life-threatening conditions. Patients with slight symptoms are placed in quarantine at home. We have not gathered data on the percentage of cases that progress from slight symptoms to serious symptoms. If a patient goes from serious conditions to life-threatening conditions, the patient will be sent to the ICU. Among 138 patients, 36 were transferred to the ICU, representing 26 per cent of all patients.

The percentage of deaths among life-threatening cases is about 15 per cent. The mean period to go from slight conditions to life-threatening conditions is about 10 days. Twenty-eight patients recovered and were discharged. Right now, the recovery rate is 20.3 per cent, while other patients remain hospitalised.

It is notable that 12 cases were linked to South China Seafood Market; 57 were infected while being hospitalised, including 17 patients already hospitalised in other departments; and 40 medical staff, among 138 cases (as of Jan 28). That demonstrates that a hospital is a high-risk zone and appropriate protection must be taken…

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/reporters-notebook-life-and-death-in-a-wuhan-coronavirus-icu

#138 Long-Time Lurker on 02.10.20 at 3:11 pm

>Some highlights. Part 3.

>The HIV-Influenza Virus (Indian Scientific Paper, previously reported) [biological weapon] hypothesis’ indicator.

Reporter’s Notebook: Life and death in a Wuhan coronavirus ICU

PUBLISHED
FEB 6, 2020, 4:40 PM SGT

Translated by Sun Huixia and Dave Yin

…Caixin: What is the highest risk a serious patient faces?

Peng: The biggest assault the virus launches is on a patient’s immune system. It causes a fall in the count of lymphocytes, the damage in the lungs and shortness of breath. Many serious patients died of choking. Others died of the failure of multiple organs following complications in their organs resulting from a collapse of the immune system…

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/reporters-notebook-life-and-death-in-a-wuhan-coronavirus-icu

#139 Long-Time Lurker on 02.10.20 at 3:12 pm

>Some highlights. Part 4.

>Another HIV clue. “Once the count of lymphocytes…”

Reporter’s Notebook: Life and death in a Wuhan coronavirus ICU

PUBLISHED
FEB 6, 2020, 4:40 PM SGT

Translated by Sun Huixia and Dave Yin

Currently there are no special drugs for the coronavirus. The primary purpose of the ICU is to help patients sustain the functions of their body. Different patients have different symptoms. In case of shortness of breath, we provided oxygen; in case of a kidney failure, we gave dialysis; in case of a coma, we deployed Ecmo. We provide support wherever a patient needs it to sustain his life. Once the count of lymphocytes goes up and the immune system improves, the virus will be cleared. However, if the count of lymphocytes continues to fall, it is dangerous because the virus continues to replicate. Once a patient’s immune system is demolished, it is hard to save a patient.

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/reporters-notebook-life-and-death-in-a-wuhan-coronavirus-icu

#140 Long-Time Lurker on 02.10.20 at 3:12 pm

>Some highlights. Part 5.

Reporter’s Notebook: Life and death in a Wuhan coronavirus ICU

PUBLISHED
FEB 6, 2020, 4:40 PM SGT

Translated by Sun Huixia and Dave Yin

…Caixin: Do you have any advice for coronavirus-infected patients?

Peng: The most effective approach to the virus epidemic is to control the source of the virus, stem the spread of the virus and prevent human-to-human transmission. My advice for a patient is going to a special ward for infectious diseases, early detection, early diagnosis, early quarantine and early treatment. Once it has developed into a severe case, hospitalisation is a must. It is better to contain the disease at an early stage. Once it reaches the life-threatening stage, it is way more difficult to treat it and requires more medical resources. With regard to life-threatening cases, try to save them with ICU measures to reduce the mortality rate…

…The patient who impressed me most came from Huanggang. He was the first to be saved with the assistance of Ecmo. He had contact with South China Seafood Market and was in very serious conditions. He was transferred to the ICU and we saved him with Ecmo. He was discharged from the hospital Jan 28…

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/reporters-notebook-life-and-death-in-a-wuhan-coronavirus-icu

#141 Dog Breath on 02.10.20 at 7:57 pm

Apparently in areas of China people are digging used face masks out of the trash and reselling them. What could go wrong? They’re also fighting over food. And we’re worried about condo insurance! Reality is a bitch and we’re going to be dealing with this soon enough!!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12305122

#142 Monty on 02.10.20 at 8:42 pm

And insurance companies rake in the money as always big corporations don’t loose.

Research before you speak. Saves embarrassment. – Garth