The bloodbath

Toronto Jeff follows this blog and, as you can see below, has a small history with me. But we’ve never met. Good thing. I’ll tell you why after you read the following.

Long-time reader, big fan. Curiously, I used to be an intern at the PMO during your rebellion (which I agreed with BTW), and that’s how I initially came to follow your blog.

Now, as a 31 year old working class Torontonian, I pretty much just check in to get my daily dose of sanity. Thought you might find my situation interesting since it’s recently led to a blow up at our most recent family BBQ.

My fiancée and I have been engaged for over 2 years now. We’re both busy professionals and planning a wedding is way more complicated than it needs to be, so we gave ourselves tons of time. We’re about 4 weeks out and very excited. That said, we’re feeling the pressure to buy a house from all angles, and it’s really starting to irk me.

I thought this whole hormonal thing was done in my teenage years. No-one warned me your early 30s would be much much worse. Especially when your in-laws just cashed out on a 1.6m dollar home in January, moved out of town for pennies, and constantly proclaim the market only goes up and that we need to “get in when we can”. I’ve had conversations 1 on 1 with my future father in law explaining the detachment from economic fundamentals that are stretching people thin in an over-blown market. He follows the logic (to an extent).

Recently, however, I had a family BBQ at home (the land of million dollar McMansions) where my uncle owns multiple properties. My family and future in-laws came to join us and the problem came when housing was brought up, and again (led this time by my own father) the question arises about when we were planning to buy a house. I was outnumbered. My uncle, my father, and my future father in law are all old-school money makers who slaved away at their 9-5s and stuck it all in their houses, which they have all by now cashed out on (in one way or another). To them it is the safest way to build wealth, it comes tax-free, and you’re throwing your money away by renting.

It was a total bloodbath done in front of my fiancée, my cousins, my aunts, my mother, and about a dozen other family members. None of whom chimed in once during the entire exchange, and turned red when I asked their opinion. I’m happy I stood my ground, but I feel I’ve set up some tension between my future in laws.

I can detail to you my arguments, but to best understand where I’m coming from I have to break down my situation.

Currently, my fiancée and I are living in a tiny 1-bedroom in Distillery. It’s cute and fun, and we’re very happy renting here. We eventually want to have kids so we know it’s a matter of time before we have to move.. we just don’t know when that will be.

In 4 years we’ve never met the landlord once. We were shown the place by a property manager, put in a low-ball rent offer, had it accepted, and have never seen anyone since. I’m serious; we literally have 0 human connection to anyone who owns or manages this property. The rent? $1650. We get parking too. Locally that goes for $250 extra. It’s a steal for what it is.

When I look at the “buy” option my family so desperately wants me to go for, the EXACT condo unit in my building would cost 2900 a month, plus 120k down payment!! In what world does this make sense??

I can literally rent this place for 6 years for just the down payment alone. The classic “we could help you with the down payment” was thrown out there during this exchange. I asked them if they’d be willing to pay my rent for 6 years instead (I knew the numbers since I had recently looked this up). This was met with bewilderment. My point was that in paying my rent instead of the down payment, you’d allow me to save much more a month, wait for a market correction, and then time a buy for a more suitable family home down the line.

The answer, of course, was no.

So then, why does it make sense to offer up a lump sum loan to saddle me up with a debt burden for 25 years that basically doubles what I’m paying in rent. Because I’m missing out, and the principle value of the unit is only going to go up was the consistent answer. And if I didn’t like the condo market.. why didn’t I just move back home (to the boonies) and get a house? It’s what all my friends did, it’s what all my cousins are doing, and it’s what will give me room to build a family.

Short answer: it feels like giving up.

Not only that, but I’m married to my current employer. My company is an early stage start-up and we recently raised big bucks to take our product to market aggressively. At current valuation from our Series A that makes my shares worth 1M USD. Problem is, they won;’;t be vested for a few years. So giving up and moving out of Toronto means I have to get a new job.. and that means I give up my shares.. and at this point that’s walking away from a life changing amount of money.

So here I am, stuck in Toronto, married both to my employer and a house-horny family. The ying and the yang. The heaven and earth. The eternal struggle.

It doesn’t help that a few of my friends who moved away from Toronto and back to the distant burbs are now amateur landlords with multiple properties in the area. They are flashy and like to brag about their “investments”. My parents constantly ask about them and use them as an example of making smart decisions with your money. It’s really soul sucking to hear this shit all the time.

Apologies for the rant, but god, this is worse than puberty.  I just needed to vent.

My turn: Quit moaning.

You’ll never win this argument. Give up trying. The old people believe in what worked for them and too blinkered to see beyond their own closed lives. Of course no asset goes up forever. Of course, 2018 is not 1998. This world brings a unique set of problems and circumstances which has turned real estate ownership into a mania, then an obsession, then a trap. Their swaggering, bravado, hectoring and belittling has one purpose only – to make you become them.

By trashing your choices and deflowering you in front of your fiancée, family members put their own ignorance and narrow-mindedness on display. What a bunch of losers. More interested in forcing you to validate their choices than in supporting yours. This is not what parents, especially, should do to any adult child – let alone one in a stable relationship, soaring at work, with accomplishments (dotards don’t get into the PMO) and substantial wealth lying ahead. They’re selfish and wrong. The inlaws are idiots. Your amateur landlord cousins have leapt into a bottomless cauldron of debt. The whole familial house of cards is built on manipulation, paleo thinking and house lust.

But mostly, this is your fault.

If you two are happy, live in a cheap and fun place, enjoy work success and are excited about your years ahead, then focus on that. Brush the fossils aside. Don’t allow a bloodbath to take place. Laugh it off. Tell the dinos what they want to hear. Then follow your hearts, together.

Stop being a child.

163 comments ↓

#1 James on 07.16.18 at 4:23 pm

But mostly, this is your fault.

If you two are happy, live in a cheap and fun place, enjoy work success and are excited about your years ahead, then focus on that. Brush the fossils aside. Don’t allow a bloodbath to take place. Laugh it off. Tell the dinos what they want to hear. Then follow your hearts, together.

Stop being a child.
___________________________________________
Are you talking about Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin?

#2 Darren on 07.16.18 at 4:30 pm

Surely one of these real estate titans purchased a Toronto house around the peak in 1990, was regretting it in 1995 and has forgotten the angst. 1990 is of course about where the real estate cycle is now in Hogtown.

#3 binkybarnes on 07.16.18 at 4:32 pm

First! Finally!! This is the most glorious moment of my life.

#4 Old gringo on 07.16.18 at 4:38 pm

Message to all the “deplorable’s”.
Aren’t you proud of your vote after Putin played Trump like a puppet master.
Shame on you all!!!

#5 Brett in Calgary on 07.16.18 at 4:42 pm

“It’s really soul sucking to hear this shit all the time.”
—————————————————–

Don’t worry it eventually stops… just takes time. In Alberta I haven’t heard of a good “investment” in a while now. Get ready for the slow burn.

#6 Frank on 07.16.18 at 4:43 pm

They need you to join the Ponzi Scheme. You just had your high pressure sales moment and you did not buy the time share….Congrats

#7 A J on 07.16.18 at 4:51 pm

I wish I had your “problems”. Quit whining is right. I’m sick and tired of rich people acting like the sky is falling around them when faced with adult, first world problems. Grow up, and grow a pair.

#8 tccontrarian on 07.16.18 at 4:53 pm

“By trashing your choices and deflowering you in front of your fiancée, family members put their own ignorance and narrow-mindedness on display. What a bunch of losers. More interested in forcing you to validate their choices than in supporting yours. This is not what parents, especially, should do to any adult child – let alone one in a stable relationship, soaring at work, with accomplishments (dotards don’t get into the PMO) and substantial wealth lying ahead. They’re selfish and wrong. The inlaws are idiots. Your amateur landlord cousins have leapt into a bottomless cauldron of debt. The whole familial house of cards is built on manipulation, paleo thinking and house lust.”-GT
———————————
Almost poetic, Garth!

In 3-5 years, the in-laws may see the wisdom of renting now (as opposed to buying). Until then, just have to take the higher road – and avoid those types of conversations.
Those amateur landlord cousins of yours, will be coming to you to ask for a loan…but then, the blood will be flowing the other way!

TCC

#9 HighParkRanger on 07.16.18 at 4:56 pm

My piece of advice to Jeff: Just turn around to the old guard and ask them “Why didn’t you buy 3 houses back when you were buying RE?”

They’ll look stumped. They always do.

Then proceed to explain that you could buy a house for 4x yearly income back in their days, whereas now they cost 12x.

So, us buying *one house* right now is like them buying three back then. Works every time. You see the mental gears (very slowly) start to turn in their skulls and you feel their buttholes shrink to a decimal point, when they realize just how out of whack it is today.

Works on my family every time ;)

#10 AprilJ. on 07.16.18 at 4:59 pm

Dude: so harsh.

It takes some of us ’til our thirties to realize we can say “what a good idea” without any intention of doing that idea. It’s quite freeing.

Eventually one realizes one can say it even about ideas that are so sad they need a whole box of triple-ply Kleenex.

#11 Mark on 07.16.18 at 5:12 pm

House prices rising again. Stocks hitting all time highs. I think I’m listening to this blog for 10 years I’m the one who’s the greater fool.

If you did nothing about it, yeah. – Garth

#12 Darts on 07.16.18 at 5:13 pm

Ask them to lend you the same amount of money so that you can invest in stocks and bonds. Remind them that any of their peers that had done that at the age they bought rather they buy a home would be much further ahead

#13 DON on 07.16.18 at 5:23 pm

Best advice ever! Garth tells it like it is.
Do not cave at this point. Live your own life.

You friends and cousins are in a horse race…but the race ain’t finished yet. Stand your ground and enjoy the future. Do not take on more debt at this point – spending on the wedding is enough. And charge steep prices for alcohol to all family members new and old…they can afford it, being high rollers and all.

#14 Mark on 07.16.18 at 5:25 pm

Garth, I did do something. Just what you said. Balanced portfolio and rent. But I’m further behind my family and friends and a laughing stock. Oh well. Maybe next lifetime.

#15 LP on 07.16.18 at 5:35 pm

Jeff, just show them all Garth’s reply but lop off his last sentence. It serves no purpose and demeans you again (like you needed that). And you might consider a conversation with your fiancee about standing by her man.

And if none of that is effective, have your BBQs with your neighbours. They’re living your life too and will understand where you’re coming from.

F71ON

#16 Reality is stark on 07.16.18 at 5:35 pm

Only listen to your mother-in-law if you want to die early. If her priorities become your priorities you will have a life of poverty.
You have to make money and save money and not necessarily in that order.
She only knows how to spend money and that will send you to your grave.
Another valuable piece of advice, you can buy the ring all you want but never ever ever ever set a date.

#17 Howard on 07.16.18 at 5:43 pm

Another letter-writer bragging about how rich he is.

#18 Nonplused on 07.16.18 at 5:49 pm

#4 Old gringo on 07.16.18 at 4:38 pm
Message to all the “deplorable’s”.
Aren’t you proud of your vote after Putin played Trump like a puppet master.
Shame on you all!!!

Most of the readers on this site are Canadian so we didn’t get to vote for Trump.

But anyway what was he supposed to do? Every US president since WW2 has met the leader of the Soviet Union / Russia. It’s what world leaders do – meet with each other, eat fancy dinners, pose for photos, etc. And if it manages to push back the start of WW3 by a few weeks so we can enjoy the summer, I’m all for it.

TDS (Trump Derangement Syndrome) has clearly become a widespread disease when people on Canadian websites start foaming at the mouth when Trump merely fulfills the duties of the office to which he was elected.

Now the trade wars on the other hand… But those could seriously affect us so I think we have cause for alarm.

#19 TS on 07.16.18 at 5:49 pm

Garth’s right…nothing but pain and suffering in store for you if you outsource your happiness. You have a strategy, stick to your guns. The world is going to be a cruel place if you have figured out how to pocket north of a million made in your early 30s but can’t figure out how to be the boss of your own life. Your inlaws probably don’t even give a crap about real estate…they just smell an easy target to kick around for fun.

#20 Pritzl on 07.16.18 at 5:50 pm

Dear Jeff, been there done that. I wasn’t house lust we were at odds about, rather a change of career. After many years of stress, I realized that the key was that my parents just wanted to be heard. As such, I adopted a strategy of nodding along politely and stopped trying to convince them of my position. They get to vent and I get to live my life the way I want it, free of strife.

Almost 20 years later, they still grumble on occasion but begrudgingly have to admit that everything turned out alright in the end.

#21 Nonplused on 07.16.18 at 5:52 pm

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trump%20Derangement%20Syndrome

#22 Yanniel on 07.16.18 at 6:00 pm

Tell them you utterly give a cucumber about what they do or think.

#23 Nonplused on 07.16.18 at 6:01 pm

#17 Howard on 07.16.18 at 5:43 pm
Another letter-writer bragging about how rich he is.

Unvested options in a startup company is a long way from being rich. I know a number of people in the oil patch that learned that the hard way. Stock options only make you rich when you sell them, and most startups go belly up before the options vest. Even if they make it to the vesting date, the share price has to be worth something or you still don’t get any money out of them. So it is possible that Jeff actually doesn’t have any money at all.

As a good friend of mine likes to say: “You can’t eat options”. Sure, they can potentially change your life, but a lot of things have to go right for that to happen. Most people either sell them to early, sell them too late (like trading stocks it’s hard to know at the time which one you are doing), or they expire worthless.

#24 Karl on 07.16.18 at 6:01 pm

Garth, I did do something. Just what you said. Balanced portfolio and rent. But I’m further behind my family and friends and a laughing stock. Oh well. Maybe next lifetime.

I know many people who feel the way you do, Mark. No one knows what’s going to happen, not even Garth – as much as people on this forum like to believe. But if you ask boomers, it’s all about RE. If you ask Garth, it’s all about stocks and bonds.

Then learn to read. My message here is simple and consistent: lead a balanced life. – Garth

#25 crowdedelevatorfartz on 07.16.18 at 6:04 pm

Well Jef.
I have a friend who was working at Sleemans Brewery when it first started up.
Hard worker, he had employee stock options which he invested in. company was doing ok.
His fiancé moved to Vancouver tto upgrade he education, he quit Sleemans , sold his stock and moved out to join her.
8 months latter Sleemans sold to a Japanese brewery and all the long term employe got aa huge bonus and kept heir jobs…..2 months after that his fiancée dumped him …….
Screw the house, keep renting, this market correction is just gaining momentum.
Enjoy next years BBQ as the over extended “in-laws” keep repeating “the market will come back”… ask them “Which decade?

#26 Stone on 07.16.18 at 6:12 pm

#14 Mark on 07.16.18 at 5:25 pm
Garth, I did do something. Just what you said. Balanced portfolio and rent. But I’m further behind my family and friends and a laughing stock. Oh well. Maybe next lifetime.

————

And why are you discussing your finances in public? Are you sure that’s the reason why you’re a laughing stock? You do realize most people lie about their financial situation. After all, the 1% are made up of only 1% of the population. The rest claiming to be of the 1% or anything close are full of BS.

Anyone “looking the part” of the 1% and flaunting it is 99% not affluent. The true 1% keep a low profile so they don’t get harrased by losers. And trust me, I’m nobody’s laughing stock if they know what’s good for them. Who’s goals are you trying to meet? Yours or theirs? I only look to meet my own. Everyone else is irrelevant.

Lots of insecure people around.

#27 Just a dude on 07.16.18 at 6:12 pm

Garth, awesome response. Thanks for posting.

Jeff, you rock. No disrespect to the family but don’t let the knuckle draggers bring you down and ruin the great path you’ve placed yourself on. We need more young people like you.

#28 John Entwistle on 07.16.18 at 6:14 pm

The next thing to really piss off your parents and in-laws Jeff is to tell them that you’re going Vegan!

#29 T on 07.16.18 at 6:16 pm

MF, grow a pair. :)

Best advice ever – tell the dinos what they want to hear.

#30 Reximus on 07.16.18 at 6:19 pm

TDS (Trump Derangement Syndrome) has clearly become a widespread disease
=====

so is trump sycophant syndrome

#31 The Real Mark on 07.16.18 at 6:26 pm

“#14 Mark on 07.16.18 at 5:25 pm
Garth, I did do something. Just what you said. Balanced portfolio and rent. But I’m further behind my family and friends and a laughing stock. Oh well. Maybe next lifetime.”

How so? Balanced portfolios have solidly outperformed the Canadian housing market since the 2013 plateau.

Perhaps you’re an unfortunate victim of not understanding the impact that the sales mix has had on Canadian RE. As a renter and balanced portfolio investor, in most cases, your purchasing power in housing had been growing since 2013, and such growth appears to be accelerating as of late.

#32 Karl on 07.16.18 at 6:30 pm

Then learn to read. My message here is simple and consistent: lead a balanced life. – Garth

I can read fine, thanks. A “balanced life” can mean many a thing to many different people. That’s all I was saying. RE was worked out well for many. I’m sure renting and balanced portfolios have also worked for many.

Each of those paths come with their own challenges along the way, to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

#33 the ryguy on 07.16.18 at 6:31 pm

#4 Old gringo on 07.16.18 at 4:38 pm
————————————–

WTF are you talking about? Seriously…please tell me, what do you feel he has done? Good lord you are batsh*t crazy.

You didn’t like them discussing ending nuclear proliferation?
You didn’t like Putin offering Mueller assistance with his ‘investigation’?
Or you didn’t like Putin telling about the previously undisclosed $400M donated to Hilary from a Russian criminal?

Please enlighten all of us.

#34 raisemyrent on 07.16.18 at 6:31 pm

hey everyone. reno looking good Garth. nothing like a nice old stone building.

time and again we hear about all these people who have success financially, but can’t handle their family. doesn’t seem like in this case it’s the spouse, which is the most flabbergasting thing for me. how can you decide to share a life if you can’t agree on such huge, and rational, matters like whether or buy or rant. I have 0 sympathy for people like that… who feel obliged to “give in” to their spouse etc. etc. Extended family should be a walk in the park to deal with. Like Garth said, grow up. Parents, thank them, but you’re an adult now. Some people never stop looking up to them.

#35 Sam on 07.16.18 at 6:34 pm

Of course, 2018 is not 1998.–G

For Les Bleus, it is ;-)

#36 Bob on 07.16.18 at 6:39 pm

Too bad most parents just can’t be happy for the lives their kids lead as adults…

#37 BlogWitch on 07.16.18 at 6:42 pm

Thanks to Garth, I’ve saved over the last 6 years and will continue renting until there is a proper correction. You don’t have to be a high earner to follow the valuable free advice here. Now I have a respectable portfolio … Diverse, liquid, balanced, low ETF fees, all in one sexy, flexible package…Mmmm. Whenever the sheeple put the house buying pressure on me (divorced, single income female) I just come back to the blog and get recalibrated and giggle at the priceless dog pics (the unicorn one was a gem). Stay strong everyone.

#38 Spectacle on 07.16.18 at 6:46 pm

I must agree with the Turner wisdom posted here again.

Honestly, here in BC , $1.5 million ( family sold property…) barely gets you tickets to a dumpster fire!

Key words, they cashed out.

” This world brings a unique set of problems and circumstances which has turned real estate ownership into a mania, then an obsession, then a trap. ”
The truly wise, Garth Turner 2018

Jeff, sincere question for You. Where was your wife to be, during all of this? Does she have your back ? A life worth living is a life worth planning, with your spouse.

#39 dakkie on 07.16.18 at 6:49 pm

The Housing Shortage May Be Turning, Warning Of A Price Bubble

http://www.investmentwatchblog.com/the-housing-shortage-may-be-turning-warning-of-a-price-bubble/

#40 Victorian on 07.16.18 at 6:50 pm

I like Jeff! He’s he smartest kid I’ve seen featured on this blog in ages.

Stick to your guns, Jeff. Even when wifey gets preggers and you catch the bug to provide 3000 sq ft of space for an 8-pound baby:)

Before long, many house-buyers will be crying in their soup, & biting their nails

#41 BlogDog123 on 07.16.18 at 6:56 pm

I’d like to hear some stories comparing those:

(A) renting, lose a job and are now “mobile”, able to find new more desirable work elsewhere
vs.

(B)mortgaged to a crazy level, lose a job and lose the house or are feeling trapped in their house and find a job 2 hour commute away…

Then some people will realize too much house is hazardous.

#42 Russia 2018 World Cup on 07.16.18 at 6:58 pm

France won, yes. But were they best team? I think not.

France 1-0: Griezmann dives and cons the ref into giving a free-kick which results in the unfortunate OG. Should have been a Yellow for diving
France 2-1: hand ball should never have been called! Yes, it did hit the hand but it was a ‘miss’ by the French player which fooled the Croatian (he was anticipating some contact from the French player 2-3 feet in front of him)
French 3rd, 4th goals were the only ‘earned’ goals.

For me, having played the game 40+ years, the best teams were: Croatia/Belgium/France – but on any given day, with suspect refereeing, anyone could win.

Till 2022…

#43 For those about to flop... on 07.16.18 at 7:00 pm

Hey Crowdie,thanks for the message and Love Gurus Dad too for that matter.

I saw you give Broadway a shoutout.

This announcement probably has him rubbing his hands.

Vancouver council approved a mass rezoning on 438 properties down in his neck of the woods.

These guys are not on the same page.

The city wants one thing.

The province wants another.

The Feds?

They want everything…

M44BC

http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/vancouver-grandview-woodland-rezoning-approval-july-2018

#44 Honey Dripper on 07.16.18 at 7:01 pm

I engage in these RE convos all the time. The level of stupidity for buying is without any reason. The thought of renting to most people is just not understandable and so is leasing a car.

Jeff, I feel your pain!

#45 TRUMP on 07.16.18 at 7:02 pm

Way too long a ramble….

Should have cut that squabble off after 2 sentences

#46 Lost...but not leased on 07.16.18 at 7:03 pm

I really don’t think we should be provided details of Italian family meetings….capisce?

#47 BlogWitch on 07.16.18 at 7:11 pm

@BlogDog123

Those B stories don’t make it to Facebook ;)

#48 TurnerNation on 07.16.18 at 7:14 pm

Italian?
Brutal, paging a D-lawyer to today’s and yesterday’s blog. Need estimate, natch.

The future, a beggardly man violently rampages persons and property for full half hour in the heart of downtown traffic. Police? They came finally, after coffee break.

https://www.cp24.com/news/police-called-after-man-spotted-stomping-on-car-in-traffic-on-richmond-street-1.4015393

What a poor, vunerable marginalized man eh.

#49 Millenial CTO on 07.16.18 at 7:17 pm

Grow a pair and tell them to kick rocks Toronto Jeff! Feels great

#50 Stan Brooks on 07.16.18 at 7:18 pm

Jeff,
Nothing is wrong with you.

You are looking for sanity in a mental institution.

Get out from (the shit hole) Toronto as fast as you can.

#51 Bonhomme Carnaval on 07.16.18 at 7:30 pm

Dear Jeff,

Don’t have BBQs anymore.

Peace,

#52 FOUR FINGERS WATSON on 07.16.18 at 7:31 pm

The Canadian Real Estate Association says the number of homes sold in June was down 10.7 per cent from a year ago.

The result was a five-year low for the month of June.

However, sales volume was up 4.1 per cent when compared with May.

The association says it was the first substantive month-over-month increase this year.

The national average price for a home sold in June was just under $496,000, down 1.3 per cent from a year ago.

Excluding the Greater Vancouver and Greater Toronto markets, the average price was just over $389,000.

#53 jas on 07.16.18 at 7:43 pm

Folks, RE is very local phenomenon. Its rocking in Surrey and I don’t think we will ever see more than 5 % decline. 1000 people are moving in here every month !
Even though its said BOC is independent and has mandate to keep lid on inflation, but that is total BS ! Next year is the election year, BOC will not raise rates any more than 1 more 25 basis jump.

#54 espressobob on 07.16.18 at 7:43 pm

Living within your means is a big step for some so it seems. Going into years of debt to satisfy peers is an illusion to please those who think they know what is best for your future.

How wrong can that get?

#55 Long-Time Lurker on 07.16.18 at 7:46 pm

I’m getting the feeling that Trump tariffs on Red China will cause the next pothole on the global economic highway; but first we’ll see what the WTO has to say about all the trade tariffs going into effect.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-27/china-think-tank-warns-of-financial-panic-risk-in-leaked-note

#56 Jimers on 07.16.18 at 7:50 pm

Jeff, woman test men, its in their DNA. The buy vs rent challenge is just one of these many tests. If you cant learn to be The Man and over come, perhaps ignore these tests, primarily with your own self love, she will never stop testing. Remember to follow your heart, not her’s, because in the end its how she feels about you that matters, not what you provide her.

PS: Never confront her, just change your behavior with her and family. Chances are they feel that because it obviously upsets you, you are not firm in your decisions. Always remember, you are The Man.

#57 Jungle on 07.16.18 at 7:51 pm

Nothing wrong with looking at cheaper areas of GTA to get something you can afford with some breathing room. If you make high income and don’t have any personal debt problems, I don’t see why this would be a burden.

I personally wouldn’t buy a condo in distillery district but look in to east GTA houses much cheaper, a small detached house almost same price a condo. More space to enjoy, bbq, growing family , etc. A shoebox 1 bed condo with a growing family is not going to be big enough.

Overtime RE in GTA has proved to be an asset that benefits you. You don’t have to pay mortgage for 30 years you can make extra payments if you’re high income and knock that down surprisingly fast. Extra payment can easily erase 5-15 years off mortgage.

The gap between the rich and poor will keep growing. If you are not in stocks and RE, you will miss the train. Simple as that. With globalization, population growth, aggressive immigration policy and GTA being highly desired and safe place to live, there is lots of wealth and strong economy to keep this RE train going.

Unless we get devastating depression with high unemployment for a very long time wiping out the economy, that is the only way this market will collapse.

Despite what people think there has been no collapse in GTA prices, even with scary wobble last spring. Condos at all time high, Toronto average detach still 1.4m .. people still buying. The peek for detach was 1.5 M last spring BTW.. even through stress test it’s holding up well.

There is more people with money (wealth, equity, etc) to keep this going and stable to satisfy demand than people who can’t buy.

All the people who can’t buy and afford can sit back and stay out. There is enough money to drive the market without them.

#58 old gringo on 07.16.18 at 7:53 pm

re#33 the ryguy on 07.16.18 at 6:31 pm
#4 Old gringo on 07.16.18 at 4:38 pm
————————————–

WTF are you talking about? Seriously…please tell me, what do you feel he has done? Good lord you are batsh*t crazy.

You didn’t like them discussing ending nuclear proliferation?
You didn’t like Putin offering Mueller assistance with his ‘investigation’?
Or you didn’t like Putin telling about the previously undisclosed $400M donated to Hilary from a Russian criminal?

Please enlighten all of us.

Senior RY GUY, i truly wish I could, however it has proven impossible to enlighten a redneck!!
Even his own party members are in shock!

#59 jim on 07.16.18 at 7:59 pm

” with accomplishments (dotards don’t get into the PMO) and substantial wealth lying ahead”

The stock options?

Most startups fail. There’s no guarantee the fellow is going to land the estimated value of his options.

Financial Samurai has a good breakdown of whether it makes sense to work at a startup. Given risks of failure, splitting cash with venture capitalists (etc etc) it often makes more sense to work a regular 9-5, particularly if you can get into a top tier company.

#60 akashic record on 07.16.18 at 8:02 pm

#42 Russia 2018 World Cup

+1

#61 Bytor the Snow Dog on 07.16.18 at 8:08 pm

Jeff needs to be sure Jeffette is 100% on the same page. Then she needs to grow a spine and tell her family to BFTO. If she can’t do that then maybe Jeff needs to think about postponing the wedding indefinitely.

#62 Karl on 07.16.18 at 8:09 pm

I keep hearing that historically the TSX has outpaced RE, but what you are all leaving out is the cost of renting over that period of holding that balanced portfolio. Conviently that is always left out.

Also, why is it ok to say RE will not go up forever and the price declines are indicative of the crappy asset it is, but stocks do go up forever and and crashes are “buying opportunities” and don’t last long.

I’m asking to understand, not to antagonize. I am trying to make counter arguments in hopes of good answers.

It’s not a contest. – Garth

#63 Ray on 07.16.18 at 8:26 pm

Pres.Trump did not call out Putin on the 2016 Russian election meddling because he wants Putin to do it again in 2020.

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/putin-says-he-wanted-trump-to-win-in-2016-didnt-interfere?utm_campaign=magnet&utm_source=article_page&utm_medium=related_articles

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/with-fewer-legal-fees-to-worry-about-trump-raises-90-million-for-reelection-bid-and-the-gop

#64 AGuyInVancouver on 07.16.18 at 8:28 pm

CREA continues their masterclasses in turd polishing, trumpeting that sales are “rebounding” as buyers adjust to higher rates and B20. Buried down at the tail end of the article is the fact sales are down 11% over last year.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-canadian-home-sales-rise-as-buyers-adjust-to-new-mortgage-rules/

#65 Screwed Canadian Millenial on 07.16.18 at 8:32 pm

” The old people believe in what worked for them and too blinkered to see beyond their own closed lives.”

AMEN! Boomers are closed-minded.

Applies to a lot more than housing too.

Finally Garth truly sees the SCM perspective.

#66 Karl on 07.16.18 at 8:32 pm

It’s not a contest. – Garth

I know it’s not, but your guideline allowances for one to buy RE would eliminate about 95% of buyers. So for most, including the blog dogs here, it is a contest.

#67 SoggyShorts on 07.16.18 at 8:32 pm

This isn’t surprising at all. Even people who fail can judge you harshly.

Recently my mother told me about a conversation my parents had with their longtime friends (since before I was born) where the friends said “I’m surprised he doesn’t have any ambition, he seemed like a bright kid”

They are in their late 60s, working jobs they hate, with 260K left on their latest mortgage, 260K other debt and a house worth 550ish.

I plan to retire with a 7 figure portfolio a year or 2 after hitting 40….but no house.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

#68 Victor V on 07.16.18 at 8:36 pm

“Not only that, but I’m married to my current employer. My company is an early stage start-up and we recently raised big bucks to take our product to market aggressively. At current valuation from our Series A that makes my shares worth 1M USD. Problem is, they won;’;t be vested for a few years. ”

Many startups fail or don’t live up to the hype. The company has its hooks into its talent with these RSUs, so take your future planning with a grain of salt and certainly don’t plan for the “current valuation” to be the actual valuation. Becoming a millionaire is usually not this easy…

#69 The Real Mark on 07.16.18 at 8:38 pm

“#62 Karl on 07.16.18 at 8:09 pm
I keep hearing that historically the TSX has outpaced RE, but what you are all leaving out is the cost of renting over that period of holding that balanced portfolio. Conviently (sic) that is always left out.”

Generally the argument is that the TSX has outpaced RE on an ex-dividend basis. For example, the TSX (TSE) index level tripled 1990-2000, but Toronto RE stagnated and ended the decade priced beneath 1990 levels. Of course, the RE owner received imputed rent as their dividend from RE ownership. The TSX index fund owner received actual cash dividends.

In the past 40 years, the period of which data on the TSE/TSX’s performance versus real estate is most commonly available, the outperformance of the TSE/TSX hasn’t been very significant. However, the TSX tends to be comprised of firms that perform better during the long-term rising inflation, rising interest rate environment. Housing, of course, performs best during falling periods long-term interest rates. I suspect if you could compile good data over the very long term economic cycle, that you’d see even greater outperformance of the (Canadian) stock market versus the Canadian housing market.

Housing market statistics, themselves, can be problematic as well as they represent aggregates and averages of transactional activity, and not the experience of individuals owning a property or two. For instance, we see this a lot in the post-2013 peak era with sales mix changes in the contemporary statistics. The ‘average’ house that transacts or is constructed in Canada is far different in quality, size, etc., today, than it was 50 years ago. “House price averages”, because they tend to arise as promotional tools of the RE sell side, do not tend to do a good job of adjusting for such quality changes. And thus, cannot be appropriately used to determine a hypothetical retrospective ROI on a housing investment.

#70 Comic Book Guy in YVR on 07.16.18 at 8:41 pm

This one’s for Flop and other “Price Drop” watchers. The seller recently lowered the price from $887,500 to $855,000 (
-$32,500 or -3.66%) for this condo on the Broadway corridor in YVR:
http://www.ovlix.com/ca/property/5PZNVD-307-1030-W-Broadway-Vancouver-BC-V6H4J5

And now my homage to Flop’s rhetorical flourishes: Is 307-1030 West Broadway indicative of a Broad-based decline in Vancouver condo prices? Only time will tell.

#71 Mattl on 07.16.18 at 8:54 pm

What a nightmare this guy is living. A multi million dollar payday coming and family that wants to flip him a few hundred grrr to put down on a house. And a market thay is down 30% with tons of listings. A truly horrible spot to be in.

#72 akashic record on 07.16.18 at 8:55 pm

#62 Karl on 07.16.18 at 8:09 pm

I keep hearing that historically the TSX has outpaced RE, but what you are all leaving out is the cost of renting over that period of holding that balanced portfolio. Conviently that is always left out.

Also, why is it ok to say RE will not go up forever and the price declines are indicative of the crappy asset it is, but stocks do go up forever and and crashes are “buying opportunities” and don’t last long.

I’m asking to understand, not to antagonize. I am trying to make counter arguments in hopes of good answers.

It’s not a contest. – Garth

If you are not rich enough to have both, a dogma can help you to live with your pick, thick and thin.

It’s better to be rich enough though, at which point it’s not a contest, it’s a destiny and the testament of your greatness.

#73 Danny on 07.16.18 at 8:59 pm

Jeff.
Maybe this kind of discussion can never be resolved at a party.

If they still push….put down some numbers of all costs related.

They will quickly see how much the dollars have increased substantially since their days especially if they compare percentages…..of income after taxes to basic living costs and mortgage payments…plus as you noted the long time necessary now to repay the mortgage.

And then ask for those same costs and comparative costs in those days.
Maybe they will get your point…..when they are alone and not in a gang mentality and maybe realize it is great to sell but not to buy. Rarely do both happen at the same time….or maybe never. Garth knows better than me on that.

In their times I doubt anybody in their right mind would have been saddled with an almost life time of mortgage costs resulting in no savings in their bank account….for that new shiny car every 5 years…..parked in the driveway to show off.

On the other hand…..it just may be related to ” keeping up with the Jones'”….in which case it is a very competitive philosophy and rooted in sociological tribalism…..So give it up you won’t convince them….They just want to show you off to others…..”my son with the new house ”

It’s is not far off from ” my son the Doctor “…not the violinist….who loves life. No math consideration on their part!

As a father and father-in-law……I know the trap my generation falls into…….mainly emotions without considering how much the banks make from interest overall or the almost lifetime of stress on your shoulders not theirs.

#74 2 Cents Canadian on 07.16.18 at 9:09 pm

Jeff … rent or buy …. I (we) don’t care. I’m 60 … done the RE thing hard since I was 25 (did well). Retired at 57 .. not just from RE success .. mostly from business but also portfolio success. All three make up the “pile”. But I’ve seen high’s … I’ve seen low’s … seen 2 recessions, one Global (near) financial disaster, One divorce (maybe off the topic but significant). If you have a quiet landlord …… I would continue to rent.
Raising interest rates, new stricter lending rules, heavy average national debt, Trump and potential nafta changes ….. a semi inteligent betting man would say things will be worse 1,2,3 years down the road than they are now. There were many years where people couldn’t save as fast as RE prices were going up ….. i believe if ever there were years to hold off …. it’s the next 2 to 3. Just my 2 Cents.

#75 the ryguy on 07.16.18 at 9:13 pm

#58 old gringo on 07.16.18 at 7:53 pm
———————————————-

Great argument. Say absolutely nothing and wrap it up with the only remaining politically allowed slur.

#76 SoggyShorts on 07.16.18 at 9:15 pm

#62 Karl on 07.16.18 at 8:09 pm

Also, why is it ok to say RE will not go up forever and the price declines are indicative of the crappy asset it is, but stocks do go up forever and and crashes are “buying opportunities” and don’t last long.

**********************
Both RE and the S&P 500 will go up forever.(as long as inflation is a thing)
One big difference is that RE eventually has to return to what people can afford to pay because no one buys 1% of a house.
Houses simply can’t go from 1m each to 100m each and still get sold.

A stock has no such limitation: if shares in a company go up from $1 to $5 people can and will still buy. If it goes up to $100 they’ll still get traded.

Other big differences include
-Diversity- you can’t buy 0.001% of 1,000 homes in 30 different countries.
-Liquidity- you can buy and sell ETFs with a click of your mouse.
-maintenance: portfolios cost ~1%, but a home costs a helluva lot more to maintain.

I detailed here a few months ago how my parent’s 1992 $150K house cost them an additional 150K over 25 years with 10K roofing2x, windows, landscaping, painting, flooring, driveway, fence/deck, plumbing, furnace2x, plus kitchen and bathroom upgrades etc etc.

Not including property tax or interest on the mortgage.
Sure, it’s worth 500k now, but really those returns aren’t very impressive when you look at the whole picture.

#77 will on 07.16.18 at 9:15 pm

yeah maybe best to just humour them and live a quiet life of sanity with assets that pay you to own them.

#78 Leo Trollstoy on 07.16.18 at 9:17 pm

I’m so happy that the world’s top 2 superpowers, who collectively hold 90% of the planet Nike’s, have opened a dialog

Trump is awesome

#MAGA #PEACEPRIZE

#79 ash hurst on 07.16.18 at 9:20 pm

Jeff, you don’t have a problem. Agree vociferously with them all, then proceed to lay out a series of unfortunate stumbling blocks. You’re a smart guy, I am sure you could come up with something…..

#80 Leo Trollstoy on 07.16.18 at 9:20 pm

Those seniors are only sitting pretty because they sold their real estate before peak prices hit in 2017!

Otherwise they would be cryin

#81 the Jaguar on 07.16.18 at 9:21 pm

“It was a total bloodbath done in front of my fiancée, my cousins, my aunts, my mother, and about a dozen other family members. None of whom chimed in once during the entire exchange, and turned red when I asked their opinion. ”

What happened here? What happened to you and her against the world? What happened to the woman who loves you standing up and ‘standing by her man’, as Tammy Wynette used to sing?
Oh me. It’s not too difficult to understand the power and attraction of nostalgia for the ‘good old days’.
Call me old fashioned, but if it were me I would be in there with two feet and two fists.

#82 Flat Earth Society on 07.16.18 at 9:32 pm

#42 Russia 2018 World Cup on 07.16.18 at 6:58 pm

For me, having played the game 40+ years, the best teams were: Croatia/Belgium/France – but on any given day, with suspect refereeing, anyone could win.

Till 2022…

———

That, my friend, is the nature of sport. It wouldn’t be any fun if there wasn’t at least some small chance that either team could win. That is why they spend so much time in both youth and adult sports making sure all the players are on the right team and that team is in the right tier for their ability. So that anybody could win, even if the odds favor one team over another. It’s behind the whole concept of relegation in soccer, although most NA professional sports don’t have it and instead use equalization payments and a draft system that favors teams that need help. But those are businesses not sports.

What fun would it be to watch women’s tennis if Serena won every single game? She night be the most likely to win, but if she doesn’t lose now and again it isn’t a sport anymore.

And blaming the referee for one bad call is like blaming the goal post for rejecting a shot. The ref is just part of the game and will make mistakes. The hope is that the mistakes go both ways relatively fairly but even if there is one outstanding one, like the “hand of God” goal by Maradona, which was perhaps the worst call with the highest stakes in all of soccer history, and I can’t believe what a low life Maradona is and was that he didn’t admit to it immediately, I mean what kind of a way is that to win, but anyway I digress, the question becomes “why didn’t England just score one for themselves?”

The problem with diving in soccer is not that the potential for serious injury isn’t there, it is. You are running around on one foot while using the other foot to control the ball while someone is kicking your legs (leg) out from under you. The problem is that the incentive to draw a free kick or a penalty shot is just too high. A successful fake can mean winning the game and that could result in millions of dollars for the players on that team come negotiation time. So ya, they dive. Take free kicks out of the game and replace it with “time out penalties” like in hockey or rugby and there would be a lot less diving. It’s just the nature of the rules of the game.

——

HOW TO REDUCE DIVING IN SOCCER (FOOTBALL)

– by the Flat Earth Society

A foul results in a 5 minute penalty where the player is not allowed to re-enter play until the 5 minutes has passed. Play is restarted with a drop ball.

A yellow card results in a 10 minute penalty as above. Play is restarted with a drop ball.

A red card results in eviction from the game. Play is restarted with a drop ball.

The goal area only defines where the goalie can use his hands, it does not affect the penalty imposed on other players and does not result in a penalty kick.

If the goalie uses his hand outside the box or otherwise makes an infraction of the rules, another player can serve his penalty time off the field.

Kickoffs are now drop balls where 1 player from each team can enter the kick off circle and contest the drop ball.

——

Of course this is an entirely hypothetical construct, no changes to the game of soccer so sweeping as these will ever be proposed. But think about it for a minute what would happen to diving under these rule changes. It would practically go away, especially if you could get 5 minutes for diving. All I am trying to do is point out that the rules define the game. What would have happened if they had “replay” during the Argentina – England match and the “Hand of God” goal went upstairs for review? Maradona would have got sent off and England would have likely won. Change the rules, you change the game.

Ya sure, one might counter that even in hockey they have a penalty shot if a guy on a breakaway gets tripped from behind. This is true. But there is no rule the goalie has to stay on the line until the shot is taken. So change the soccer PK rule to “tripped from behind on a breakaway, anywhere in the attacking half of the field” and the PK to a one on one between the goalie and the shooter, shooter starts at the center and both the goalie and the shooter can move wherever the like. This also will never happen but imagine it for a second. It would totally change the game.

Remember folks, the rules are the game. American football and rugby are not soccer because they changed the rules. They both come from soccer. They changed the rules. And of course one of the things they had to do in football is put about a dozen referees on the field. Soccer could probably be improved by adding a second ref or at least giving the assistant refs the same power of officiating as the on field ref.

Back to economics, this is why understanding taxes and investing are so important. You have to play by the rules if you want to win. If you cheat, you might still win but only if you don’t get caught.

#83 Phylis on 07.16.18 at 9:33 pm

Read half way through. Scrolled to bottom. summary. You make me sad.

#84 crowdedelevatorfartz on 07.16.18 at 9:35 pm

@#43 Floppie
“Vancouver council approved a mass rezoning on 438 properties down in his neck of the woods.’
++++++
More people, the same streets, traffic gridlock……awesome.

I’ll keep an eye on that Bby, Duthie St developer property and see who lists it……

#85 Wrk.dover on 07.16.18 at 9:35 pm

So the old guy thinks the sucker that cut him a 1.6 mil cheque is smarter than Jeff, after laughing all the way to the bank with said cheque!

Also, re: yesterday, a house is an ATM now? Remember ’08 in USA? Anybody?

#86 For those about to flop... on 07.16.18 at 9:37 pm

#81 the Jaguar on 07.16.18 at 9:21 pm

Call me old fashioned, but if it were me I would be in there with two feet and two fists.

///////////////

I’d of thought you would’ve been in there with 4 paws.

Speaking of paws ,it’s only a matter of time before the kiddies remix the Joan Jett classic to get with modern times.

I love Paw Patrol.

Stick another dime in the jukebox baby…

M44BC

#87 Grammar Lady on 07.16.18 at 9:38 pm

#78 Leo Trollstoy on 07.16.18 at 9:17 pm
“I’m so happy that the world’s top 2 superpowers, who collectively hold 90% of the planet Nike’s, have opened a dialog

Trump is awesome

#MAGA #PEACEPRIZE”

90% of the world’s “Nikes”? That doesn’t sound so bad. No more throwing shoes.

#88 Phylis on 07.16.18 at 9:41 pm

Read the rest… thx for the words of wisdom Garth and temporing my prior emotional response.

#89 Millmech on 07.16.18 at 9:43 pm

Jeff is playing it all wrong, he should take the money and go out and make some stink bids on houses.He can then report back to MIL that he has been outbid on all house by ( insert politically correct scapegoat),all the while investing the “down payment”.If housing tanks Jeff looks like a genius to family while waiting out the downturn.If housing goes up they will have to pony up more cash to help out poor Jeff or just realize that real estate is too expensive in his area.Win Win

#90 Karl on 07.16.18 at 9:56 pm

#76 Soggyshorts

Thank you for that breakdown. My follow up would be:

While you listed advantages of stocks, you did not list advantages of RE.

1) You can’t live in or raise a family in an ETF.

2) Yes you can rent and “save” money on maintenance and other costs associated with home ownership, but renting can come with its own stresses.

3) While you diversify with your portfolio, you still have to pay up for housing; and rent prices rise.

So why not buy RE? I know it depends on lifestyle, but clearly Jeff will need a home in the future.

You don’t need real estate to have a home. – Garth

#91 Same shit different pile on 07.16.18 at 9:57 pm

#14 Mark on 07.16.18 at 5:25 pm
Garth, I did do something. Just what you said. Balanced portfolio and rent. But I’m further behind my family and friends and a laughing stock. Oh well. Maybe next lifetime.

*******

I feel this guys pain. Same shit different pile.

I rented instead of purchasing a house 6 years ago after selling my house(s) principle and a rental. I have a 7 figure portfolio with a financial adviser. I though I was being smart 6 years ago with over a 1M in the bank. Who cares about rent, I thought, I’m a millionaire.

Now everyone is a millionaire, and I’ve been watching my house buying power wither away year after year. My portfolio is up over a 1/4 M over the last few years, but house prices have nearly doubled where I need to buy. And when you count the rent that I’ve paid, I haven’t really made much. By my estimate house prices need to drop 50% for me to break even, and I don’t think that is going to happen. The housing market has moved against me so much for so long I don’t think I will ever recover.

Even with this recent slow down in housing, I am so down I don’t even want to look at houses. I hate them. Everyone I know has a beautiful house and some even leveraged the house and got a cottage on top of that.

I know, the people here will say they are mortgaged and they might go down in value, but they have what they want and are living and getting by now. I keep waiting and hoping thinks will eventually work out in my favour, but it becomes more and more clear every year that they are not going to. The sheep had it figured out. I tried to be the contrarian and lost. This housing situation has got me completely screwed up. I don’t know what to do anymore.

I know Garth’s answer. “So buy a house”

It’s not that simple.

I’d love someone to explain to me how I’m wrong, but I don’t see how.

You have $1.25 million liquid and come here to whine? Pathetic. – Garth

#92 For those about to flop... on 07.16.18 at 10:08 pm

Pink Lemonade Stand in Surrey.

Maybe!

Not too sure what these guys are up to ,but maybe a second set of eyes will enlighten me or maybe they really are in trouble.

They paid 1,4 in late 2015 and its on for 1.36

Did they split the lot?

They mention putting in plans and working on lots but I don’t see any other address.

This makes the most sense,but might have too get a more power torch out to shine a brighter light,because I ain’t seeing crap.

Assessment comes in at 2.05.

I hate doing 1000 piece puzzles and only discovering after a while that there is only 500 pieces in the box…

M44BC

https://www.zolo.ca/white-rock-real-estate/15319-marine-drive

#93 PillboyKirk on 07.16.18 at 10:20 pm

You just need to strike the right chord with your audience. Everyone has a different value system in place. When I was asked why don’t I build equity by buying a place, I simply answered that I can build equity in other ways too besides property, and that I didn’t necessarily view buying a house at the current point in my life a wise investment decision. As Garth frequently points out, if it makes sense and it’s affordable, then buy it. The atmosphere got really tense for a good 5 seconds. I then followed up with the point that in my current professional life, I would rather be more mobile, and that having a property would limit my ability to be able to adapt quickly should my employment situation change. I think most people can appreciate that the job market today is vastly different from that decades ago, so that’s my suggestion to Jeff.

I too will be getting married in 4 weeks. The buying discussion has come up many times, but we seem to be on the same page. My future in-laws don’t understand, but they don’t need to. To convince my fiancee in private, I simply made a spreadsheet with all our income, our fixed expenses, and showed what was left over. A huge mortgage, no vacation, limited dining out, vs freedom, vacation, and spending money, while socking money into our TFSAs. A no brainer really.

#94 Capt. Serious on 07.16.18 at 10:32 pm

Always keep in mind most people cannot do math, and then everything becomes understandable. Nod and smile, then go live your life.
Also, re series A funding. Having been through that road and seen B series become C become D and eventually bought out for not very much for employees, it’s always a very long shot in a start-up. My advice would be look after your relationships. It’s very easy to let work win because the golden carrot is always just ahead.

#95 yorkville renter on 07.16.18 at 10:32 pm

Some thoughts…

#41 – BlogDog123 I’m someone who rents, lost a job, and was able to start a business (like a new job) because employment insurance was enough to cover my bills… would have SUCKED if I had a mortgage – definitely would have been desperate times.

Stan Brooks You really live a miserable life, or a sheltered life, to harbour such animosity to the city of Toronto. Seriously dude, get a life.

Maple Leaf Incompetence dude See my comments above for Stan the (miserable) Man.

#96 Interstellar Old Yeller on 07.16.18 at 10:40 pm

Like a few others, my main concern is that Jeff’s fiancée didn’t have his back. Whether you choose to loudly debate or to placate and redirect family on a subject, neither of you should be standing on the sidelines watching while the other faces a “bloodbath” alone.

Jeff: invest in some pre-marital counselling, including discussion on relationship dynamics with your and her parents. Maybe you two can iron out a few things and save yourselves some unhappiness later.

#97 yorkville renter on 07.16.18 at 10:40 pm

1) You can’t live in or raise a family in an ETF.
No, but the differential on rent vs buy (at this point in the cycle) is substantial and like the letter writer said, it would take 6 years of rent for the right to carry a mortgage at a way higher-than-rent cost.

2) Yes you can rent and “save” money on maintenance and other costs associated with home ownership, but renting can come with its own stresses.
Perhaps I got lucky, but after owning a home for 7 years and now renting for 6 years, I can definitely say that the stress is WAY WAY lower – never have a repair, nothing to pay for except my rent and internet service. When I owned my house we had TONS of repairs and upgrades that cost WAY WAY more than yearly rent.

3) While you diversify with your portfolio, you still have to pay up for housing; and rent prices rise.
I suppose Hydro, Taxes, Heating, Insurance and every other on-going cost doesn’t rise? Perhaps you generate your own hydro? Maybe your property taxes have dropped lately? This idea that a 2% increase in rent is somehow a risk is laughable. That’s about $52 more a month for me. How is that a problem?

anything over 5X income to buy a property is INSANITY and STRESS and it’s self-inflicted.

#98 For those about to flop... on 07.16.18 at 10:46 pm

I think this is the other half of the puzzle regarding my post at 92.

I doesn’t have the normal type of urban address ,just lot 17,the other half is 18 I believe.

Well, I am glad I didn’t put this one up on my Pink Snow blog.

I would have gotten eggs pelted at my car.

It is getting harder and harder for me to get to work each morning.

I go out to my car and its surrounded by hard core Flopperites protesting.

What do we want?

Pink Snow!

When do we want it?

Now!

Sorry guys.

I got bills to pay…

M44BC

https://www.rew.ca/properties/R2289258/lot-17-marine-drive-surrey-bc

#99 Trumpocalypse2018 on 07.16.18 at 10:50 pm

If you thought today was scary, wait until tomorrow.

PREPARE.

#100 SoggyShorts on 07.16.18 at 11:06 pm

#90 Karl on 07.16.18 at 9:56 pm
#76 Soggyshorts

Thank you for that breakdown. My follow up would be:

While you listed advantages of stocks, you did not list advantages of RE.

1) You can’t live in or raise a family in an ETF.
But you can live in a rental for less than home ownership and put the difference into an ETF
2) Yes you can rent and “save” money on maintenance and other costs associated with home ownership, but renting can come with its own stresses.
The list of renters stress doesn’t go far beyond “They kicked me out because they are selling”
but the list for homeowner stress is very long: aside from all of the upkeep, being locked in and unable to take job opportunities can really screw your future

3) While you diversify with your portfolio, you still have to pay up for housing; and rent prices rise.
rental increases are usually nothing compared to upkeep, and again as today’s post from Jeff shows, rent can be close to 50% cheaper: that’s a lot of room for rents to go up
So why not buy RE? I know it depends on lifestyle, but clearly Jeff will need a home in the future.
Of course you can buy RE, but doing so with all of your money is (greater)foolish, and as GT said, Jeff doesn’t actually ever have to buy a home- no one does.

The most common line you hear from RE buffs against renting is “You are throwing away money” or “You are paying someone else’s mortgage”
But they never seem to realize that instead of paying $2900 per month with most of it going to interest for 25 years you are often better off paying $1,650 and investing the $1,250.
Then after 25 years you can tell those RE buffs that “My landlord paid for my $1,000,000 retirement nestegg”

#101 Editrix on 07.16.18 at 11:21 pm

Here’s how to solve the problem. Have all the relatives buy the place for Jeff and the wife and have them pay the taxes, upkeep and mortgage.

#102 Werd on 07.16.18 at 11:32 pm

My advice to Jeff is to give up trying to make your parents understand. The reason is simple, they are your parents who raised you from a helpless baby in diapers and have been steering your life for 30+ years. There is no way they will ever ‘hear’ your arguments about the finances. They are more likely to understand your point of view from a complete stranger, than their young boy.
This happened to a friend of mine years ago, as well. They don’t talk about it anymore, but at least they’re still talking!

#103 Questions on 07.16.18 at 11:55 pm

Beware the carrot of options in a startup. Yes it can work out, and really hope it does for you. But as an employee, the class of shares you have are likely the lowest, and the most likely to dilute, as investor class shares come in on in future rounds.

Just keep an eye, and careful not to let other opportunities pass you by because you’re made to believe there’s such a high chance you’re gonna get that $1MUSD.

#104 On the Point on 07.17.18 at 12:06 am

Right now I am on my point watching the sun go down. 5 minutes from shopping, 30 minutes from a city, hour and a half from YVR. I rent and the house is for sale.

And it’s been for sale for 45 of the 90 day listing period. 90k price drop. Two opens, 8 buying entities, no other showings.

My lovely landlady thought adding 500k to her two year ago price made sense. It didn’t.

The sun has set. We’re here for a while. Liquid. It’s a lovely feeling.

#105 Trump Beyond a Treasonable Doubt on 07.17.18 at 12:39 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNmnPbzVKPY

#106 Xpat on 07.17.18 at 12:54 am

Hey kid, learn to smile and nod. Most things that people say are about themselves anyway.

Go see how most of the world lives and you will see how privileged you are… and how pathetic you sound. I mean this from a good place. Toughen up. Live your own life. Time runs out so make it count.

#107 France not the best team ? on 07.17.18 at 12:55 am

That’s spur grapes . Of course they were . They were heavy favourites vs Croatia and won comfortably in regulation . Geez they put 4 on Croatia

It’s a pity France didn’t have to go through a Spain or Germany in the final rather than a middle of the pack Croatia (whom got lucky to beat the Danes for heavens sake )

#108 Dolce Vita on 07.17.18 at 1:03 am

Garth, you sure do have a lot of weak minded people writing to you for moral support, as if you were their Dad.

That protagonist family analysis was exactly what went thru my mind when I read his diatribe.

A Nietzsche’s masses (the family) v.s. Superman want to be (our protagonist).

They will continue to drag him down; otherwise, they will have to admit their own mediocrity.

#109 Bob Dog on 07.17.18 at 1:21 am

This guy must be a UX Designer or Product Manager. The fact that all his relatives “cashed in” is proof they think the market has topped. Why else would they have sold

#110 SoggyShorts on 07.17.18 at 1:30 am

#91 Same shit different pile on 07.16.18 at 9:57 pm

Why do you “need” to ever buy? Especially in GTA/LM?
You have a 1.25m, so just keep renting and growing that nestegg for a few more years and retire someplace sane.

The only reason to stay in a ridiculous market once you have 1.5m+ is if you are spending weekly time with friends and family in that city. If you only see them once a month it would be cheaper to buy in a reasonable location and stay in a nice hotel when you fly to see them every month.

If that’s not possible just rent forever. It can’t be that hard to find a place renting at a massive discount like Jeff did. My previous place was just the same, 100% absentee landlord whom I never met.

#111 Dimitri on 07.17.18 at 1:50 am

Jeff,

My heart goes out to you! As someone in a similar situation – you won’t convince anyone of anything.

Stop engaging, and certainly, do not expect anyone to defend you.

You have bargaining power still (future wedding). Test if your future wife is happy with the direction and maybe pause on the wedding planning until you know that she is aligned with your vision.

#112 Dolce Vita on 07.17.18 at 1:57 am

There are a lot of people today negatively commenting about Trump.

People, you are not a citizen of America nor can you vote there. Save the venom for when Trump really does harm Canada.

One good thing about being an ex-pat living overseas in Italy is that in general, there is little news about Trump.

I have to say watching/reading Cdn. news daily (CTV, CBC, Global, etc.), you come to realize that they are:

1. Very left wing, smug and superior about it.
2. Trump conflicts with their narrative; hence, their unhealthy obsession with him.
3. They demonize him at every opportunity, daily, to aggrandize their self-appointed moral authority.
4. At some point, their 10 second news snippet ADD populace internalizes that 1 sided nonsensical thinking.

I suppose they and their acolytes are too obsessed, fanatical, to seek balanced points of view and as is customary, virtue signal so that others of like mind will tell them how wonderful they are.

You are not wonderful.

Rather, you have simply not yet outgrown that mollycoddling stage of life is all, need constant attention and seek it out in the oddest of forums (e.g., a finance and investment Blog).

What ever happened to good old fashioned, raw, BALANCED, think for yourself, Canadian individualism?

On its death bed, abrogated to a smug self-congratulatory left wing obsessed Canadian MSM that have appointed themselves as the keepers of moral authority (basically, whatever Trump says, say the opposite…queue kudos from the virtue signalling adoring masses).

Reactionary. Rudderless. Devoid of self-thought and analysis.

“All I know is just what I read in the papers, and that’s an alibi for my ignorance.” said cowboy philosopher Will Rogers in the 1920s (not much has changed).

Why the Left is doomed in America for perhaps a generation.

Hopefully, that will NOT happen in Canada. I can dream can’t I?

#113 Howard on 07.17.18 at 3:32 am

#14 Mark on 07.16.18 at 5:25 pm
Garth, I did do something. Just what you said. Balanced portfolio and rent. But I’m further behind my family and friends and a laughing stock. Oh well. Maybe next lifetime.

——————————————

Worst part? All of the indebted will be bailed out with your tax dollars, either directly or via hyper inflation.

I would recommend getting the hell out of Canada.

#114 Bdwy sktrn on 07.17.18 at 4:00 am

#74 crowdedelevatorfartz on 07.16.18 at 8:18 am
@#48 Vancouver – How LOW will it go?
“A $2M+ house (land value) just sold for $1.4M on my block in Vancouver. Market is on the move off a cliff. This is not uncommon nowadays.”
++++++

Yeah…been a while since Brdy Skytrn has pumped the “uppa uppa uppa it always goes
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Hey there dude of foul smelling gases, guess what ? Still uppa.

Recently a older house on lakewood sold. Ask 2.0 sold 2.2 dom 9.
A new record for an older unrenoed place on a smaller lot.

A duplex recently sold for 2.0 (unheard of even in 2016)

A old tired crappie 2 storey around the corner just went quick , ask was ambitious at 1.8 , sold for 1.65. Not too much uppa last couple years but no down a after a decade long price explosion.

Overall a much slower market but it chugs along. 2 new infills just started this week on my block. 1.5 for a new duplex will still go very fast.

None of the above places are on an arterial undergoing the just announced zoning changes (comm/1st/etc)

Re flops comments on rezoning, this is not really news the plan was out years ago, I looked at buying on 1st and or Nanaimo in 2016 based on these changes.

,!,,,,,,,,,,,
And to the original comment

“A $2M+ house (land value) just sold for $1.4M on my block in Vancouver. Market is on the move off a cliff. This is not uncommon nowadays.”

This is pure horseshit. No address forthcoming I’m sure.

#115 two in a canoe on 07.17.18 at 6:18 am

The wife and I rent cheap digs in a fringe part of town. Relatives rarely visit us, just friends. We rented and saved and bought a beautiful ranch for our retirement. (We’ve also got 400 years worth of property tax banked.) Now relatives want to go there and bask in our Eden-like haven. We say, “Sorry, we aren’t taking bookings yet…liability reasons.” Just celebrated our thirty year anniversary. She has always dealt with her relatives, and I deal with mine. Anytime one of the nosey ones tried to give us financial advice, I told them they would be invoiced. They shut up pretty quick. They are sickly, out of shape, and bound up in urban convenience.

The nice thing is, the kids, nephews, nieces, and their friends think we are the coolest and see the result of our low profile existence. The kids come and visit the ranch, and some want to build their own cottages on our land. Two nephews were there last weekend doing chores and hanging out. The old relatives may have expensive addresses in town, but we stole the hearts of their children.

#116 MF on 07.17.18 at 7:08 am

#112 Dolce Vita on 07.17.18 at 1:57 am

It’s more complicated than “Left wing media says Trump is bad”.

I’m a Trump fan, but I think his handling of Canada over trade is wrong. The large domestic tax cuts were a really bad move as well, citing the US deficit. He deserves some criticism over both.

Your analysis of Americans is wrong as well. The country is currently heavily divided between the left and right, with both groups getting more and more extreme. American Democrats are far more left leaning than our NDP even. Most Canadians are centrists.

I think you should worry about the migrant situation in Italy before you comment on Canada from afar.

MF

#117 Hamsterwheelie on 07.17.18 at 7:30 am

Buying a house is a ‘forced savings account’ in the best case scenario and dead weight aka bragging rights in the worst case scenario.
My parents saw what happened to the market in the 90’s and it had big consequences for them so they never once encouraged me to buy a house. Thats how it goes, if someone wins they want you, as family, to win too, if they lost then they woukd tell you not to buy – at least they like you huh?
We have a few houses now because we live in a city where we were able to buy at incredibly low prices and we’ve learned how to renovate and rent out, to good tenants that are usually smarter than us.
We’ve also sold properties to newbie ‘investors’ spending a bomb on upgrades that will not ever pay them back on houses that would have more value as single family homes. Life is a gamble and sounds like Jeff is way smarter than us or his relatives – stay the course, adjust according to market conditions, be happy.

#118 Trumpocalypse2018 on 07.17.18 at 8:04 am

Today the U.S. Congress will rupture into factions on the right.

Trump will have no choice but to cause a war to rally his support.

This will all hit the fan before the November elections.

Begin your strategic evacuation from all major urban centers.

PREPARE.

#119 crowdedelevatorfartz on 07.17.18 at 8:16 am

@#114 Bdwy Sktrn

“Uppa uppa uppa it always goes uppa!”
++++++

So your still buying then?
You cant lose!
Get a second mortgage, a third. Leverage yourself to the max! It always goes uppa!

#120 crowdedelevatorfartz on 07.17.18 at 8:19 am

@#118 Trumpocalypse 2018, 19, 20……

“Begin your strategic evacuation from all major urban centers.”

+++++

You haven’t mentioned super volcanoes , earthquakes or extinction level asteroids in a while…..I’m very disappointed.

#121 Can You Dig It? on 07.17.18 at 8:32 am

Here we go. Another 31 year old with a million $. Last time it was the 30 year old making $220k.

Howcome I never meet these types of co-workers? That too in mega cap companies.

#122 IHCTD9 on 07.17.18 at 8:47 am

Jeff,

Advice – don’t engage if you want the extended family unit to remain amicable. They will never see things your way, you will never see things their way.

The showy friends are faking it, and are living in la la land. No landlord is swimming in money a few years in (more like swimming in debt). The GTA is absolutely chock full of insecure doorknobs trying to act and look successful. Best not to associate or even talk with them if you can’t gracefully handle their BS.

In just about all things in life where money, testosterone, ego, pride, friends and family are thrown into a pot together – just smile and wave. Do your own thing, based on what you believe to be correct.

Any attempt to solicit agreement from your friends and folks will end up at some level of argument.

Smile and wave.

#123 Smoking Man on 07.17.18 at 9:19 am

The hysteria by MSM over Trumps meeting with Putin is laughable. Clinton and Obama chilled with him many times. Last desperate move by globalists about to lose 40 years of effort. Don’t fool you’re self. Globalists are not your friends. Before they established power. Everyone including unskilled labour could afford a home. Is it not funny that Muller came out with an indictment against Russia just days before Trump meeting. Indictments are accusations. MSM pushing it like its total proof. Last time they did that a Russian challenged the charges. Still no discovery from Muller.

He’s a skilled deep state player. But like him and all the other globalists, deplorables will bring them down.

Great pic up top. Had a hood laugh.

#124 HonestEd on 07.17.18 at 9:26 am

Greetings.

When The “Biggest Bubble In The History Of Mankind” Bursts It Could “Cut The Stock Market In Half”.

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/ron-paul-warns-that-when-the-biggest-bubble-in-the-history-of-mankind-bursts-it-could-cut-the-stock-market-in-half

Wingnut Ron Paul and “The Economic Collapse” blog? Seriously? – Garth

#125 Bytor the Snow Dog on 07.17.18 at 9:30 am

“I think you should worry about the migrant situation in Italy before you comment on Canada from afar. ”

MF
———————————————————-
Sez the guy that knows nothing except what’s in his safe space with the City Limits of Toronto.

Pot, kettle et al.

#126 For those about to flop... on 07.17.18 at 9:48 am

I think my two countries of Australia and Canada are more focused on Rest and Recreation…

M44BC

“Find Out How Much Your Country Spends on Research & Development.

Spending money on research and development is a funny thing. It’s hard to tell what’s going to be a success, and sometimes the results aren’t valuable for decades. For example, Uber is investing heavily in driverless cars with the explicit goal of revolutionizing transportation. Even if the results aren’t always successful we’re convinced R&D investments are a leading indicator of long term economic strength.

We found the numbers for our visualization thanks to the UNESCO Institute for Statistics, which collected the data through a series of smaller regional surveys. UNESCO adjusted the figures to reflect purchasing power parity (PPP$), which makes it possible to compare amounts from country to country. The numbers include government, private, academic and non-profit investments into research and development, painting a complete picture of the R&D market across the world. We created our visualization by combining a bubble map with both an outline of the country and its flag; we also color-coded and grouped together countries based on their financial outlay. The result is a beautiful snapshot of a critical component for economic growth.

Top 10 Countries Investing the Most Money in Research and Development
1. United States: $476.5B

2. China: $370.6B

3. Japan: $170.5B

4. Germany: $109.8B

5. South Korea: $73.2B

6. France: $60.8B

7. India: $48.1B

8. United Kingdom: $44.2B

9. Brazil: $42.1B

10. Russia: $39.8B

The first and most obvious trend in out visualization is how top-heavy R&D investments are. You can easily see this just by glancing at the visualization. See how large the inner circles are compared to the rest of the visual? Try to count how many tiny red dots exist on the far exterior. Our graphic makes it easy to judge which countries are on the top (and bottom) of the R&D market.

In fact, 10 countries account for about 80% of the entire world’s outlay. The U.S. is far above and beyond the rest of the globe, contributing more than $100B than second-place China. Drilling further into UNESCO’s data reveals another leading indicator: whereas the U.S. employs 4,295 researchers per million inhabitants, China only has 1,096. Of course, China is home to a lot more people than the U.S., but the American dominance over the R&D market is clear, accounting for 27% of the entire global expenditure. That is significantly more than the bottom 100 countries combined.

Keep in mind that R&D involves a wide variety of different industries. Our figures include expenditures for everything from artificial intelligence research, to inventing new pharmaceutical drugs, to building cutting-edge fighter jets. Political scientists say that demography is destiny for winning elections. We think investment in research and development predicts how countries develop over the long term. Judging by our visualization, it’s clear that the U.S. and China will continue to be locked in an ongoing standoff for economic control over the rest of the world.”

https://howmuch.net/articles/research-development-spending-by-country

#127 LP on 07.17.18 at 9:49 am

#115 two in a canoe on 07.17.18 at 6:18 am

I enjoyed reading that. Thanks for the post.

F71ON

#128 Pablo on 07.17.18 at 9:55 am

I would recommend that Jeff make friends with other people living in Toronto who are happy renting. There are plenty of us out there! Most of my friends rent and invest their savings.

Because I have saving diligently and because I rent, I am on a one-year sabbatical now at the ripe old age of 34!

#129 Love the East Coast on 07.17.18 at 10:01 am

#41 – Blogdog123

Lost my job in May and am currently spending all summer in NS enjoying the views over to PEI (on a really clear day). Expect hubby to be packaged out soon as well. Although we have (had) large salaries, we have rented for the last 6 years and currently rent a very small townhouse month to month. Did a stint overseas 2010 – 2012 and it showed us a stress free renting way of life. Daughter has chosen to do boarding school in NS for high school as she loves it here. So, we can go anywhere. Looking forward to seeing where opportunities take us in the fall – maybe even back east, who knows! Not stressed at all. Can’t imagine how stressed I would be feeling right now about being out of work and having to pay for boarding school if I had a massive mortgage!

#130 James on 07.17.18 at 10:05 am

#123 Smoking Man on 07.17.18 at 9:19 am
The hysteria by MSM over Trumps meeting with Putin is laughable. Clinton and Obama chilled with him many times. Last desperate move by globalists about to lose 40 years of effort. Don’t fool you’re self. Globalists are not your friends. Before they established power. Everyone including unskilled labour could afford a home. Is it not funny that Muller came out with an indictment against Russia just days before Trump meeting. Indictments are accusations. MSM pushing it like its total proof. Last time they did that a Russian challenged the charges. Still no discovery from Muller.

He’s a skilled deep state player. But like him and all the other globalists, deplorables will bring them down.
Great pic up top. Had a hood laugh.
__________________________________________
Jesus Christ Smoking Man your a total whack job idiot. When all, and I repeat “ALL” of the United States government criminal and secret service investigative agencies stated “Russia conspired and meddled in the 2016 election” what part of that don’t you get? So all of the investigative powers of the most powerful nation on earth are not to be believed but a blithering puppet fool like Trump is to be believed? We are not talking about the local Sheriff in Buckwheat County Georgia now. This is the highest agencies in the country. Get you head out of your ass man and wake up. No president has ever thrown the United States under the bus and sided with the enemy. Your lover Donald J trump is a puppet to Putin and the United Stated is finished as a world leader.
Oh and your still as dumb as a post.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/16/trump-finds-putin-denial-of-election-meddling-powerful

#131 Rebs on 07.17.18 at 10:10 am

Agree with #10 completely: learn with age that debating is very stressful and gets you nowhere. Much easier to thank them for their input and change the subject.
Kinda the same thing as people who want kids vs those who don’t. Instead of telling people why we don’t want kids, I just say “it hasn’t been possible unfortunately”; which is not a lie at all (we use birth control), but avoids a potentially very emotional debate.

#132 David Martin on 07.17.18 at 10:13 am

I Have been struggling with a lot of issues the last little while (like) 30 years as an alcoholic who recently admitted he was defenceless against alcohol. Alcohol has cost me much over the years and now sobriety will be my sole focus until I feel it is manage able. I had firmly stuck my head in the sand with regards to my investments as well. Trade this buy that, sell this and so on. So I decided to let go of control of my investments as well. I put the whole shebang into Vanguard VGRO, which as Garth recommends will give me exposure to North American as well as Global Equity markets with a sprinkling of fixed income, all for an MER of .22. Garth charges a point and a bit for $500K acount, so if I add the 1% to the assumed global return of 4-6% over the next ten years I could realistically average 7.5% so $500k is a cool million in 9.6 years and when I hit the magic 65 (theoretically of course) there could be as much as $1.5 Million in the RRSP without contributing another penny. Not bad for an old drunk.

Never put all your wealth into one security. Foolish. – Garth

#133 Duke on 07.17.18 at 10:16 am

Wiseman says;

#65 Screwed Canadian Millenial on 07.16.18 at 8:32 pm
” The old people believe in what worked for them and too blinkered to see beyond their own closed lives.”

AMEN! Boomers are closed-minded.

Applies to a lot more than housing too.

Finally Garth truly sees the SCM perspective.

#134 Dissident on 07.17.18 at 11:29 am

Toronto Jeff, that kind of pressure sucks, but what ^ said – tell them what they want to hear, and do it your way.

They are only speaking from their narrow experience. Monkey see, monkey do. Do what makes $ense to you – without their permission.

Your pain comes from knowing you are right and are being misunderstood by your family – not so much that you can’t fiscally comply to their status quo conformity. They want to see you as miserable as they were; their misery wants company, they need to validate their entire lives’ paths, otherwise, why they heck did they do that to themselves! They don’t want to admit there are other options available to you. But you do. So smile and nod, and do your own thing.

#135 Another Deckchair on 07.17.18 at 12:14 pm

@132 David Martin

First – good for you for straightening your life out.

As Garth says, in his usual gruff way – also put money in other places. Do lots of reading, here and elsewhere, and listen and think about what the herd is saying. Some great ideas, some really bad ones out there. (this blog has a high % of good ideas – thanks to Garth & Co. for everything they do)

For one of my accounts, I do use VBAL since it was released, which has been fine, but even for that smallish account, it’s not even 50% of the account. We’ll see how it does over the year.

What to do? Leave the VGRO as is, and, for future investments, put money/dividends into other ETFs? That’s what I’d do, but it depends on your savings rate, tax advantaged placement, etc. but I’m certainly no expert here.

Anyone else want to chime in?

#136 Yogi on 07.17.18 at 12:20 pm

Garth, have you noticed that Calgary Real Estate Board stopped posting daily statistics for the month of July. They are only posting the benchmark number. I wonder if there is a playbook on when to redact the numbers?

#137 Smoking Man on 07.17.18 at 12:41 pm

Doesn’t take much to make you Hysterical James. Your name calling is a badge of honour I will proudly wear.

Quoting an article from the Guardian. A globalist rag right up there with Washington Post. You are clueless to what’s going on behind the curtain and hope you have a good financial advisor managing your money. Otherwise, you’re doomed with your line of thinking. You have no clue what’s about to happen in Canada.

Republicans and Democrats are one of the same, their institutions,crimal mafia cabal since Kennedy.

Trump the outsider got in by Deplorables tired of being kicked around by globalist scum who control education, msm, hollywood. They are losing power just as fast as Harvey Winstean. The hysterics is all about losing power.

The #WalkawayMovment has gone parabolic. Zero Dems at the mid terms. Watch and learn grasshopper.

#138 I'm A Believer on 07.17.18 at 12:53 pm

Hey Jeff, read and act on the wise words of Garth.
Old saying holds true; you marry the girl, you marry the family. You’re getting a snap shot of the future with both families. You and your gal must be strong and do what’s best for you. That’s it. Or be forever beat down.
Rent!!

#139 Dissident on 07.17.18 at 1:05 pm

#91 Same shit different pile on 07.16.18 at 9:57 pm

Did you seriously just whine for several paragraphs about having $1.5 mil??? Give me a break!!! You have bigger issues. Mental ones.

#140 jess on 07.17.18 at 1:27 pm

Applies to a lot more than housing too.”

stock buybacks : interest rates rise on those that borrowed to buyback?

according to trim tabs insiders are selling ?

“Large US companies have become cash machines for the top insiders who run them,” said David Santschi, director of liquidity research at TrimTabs….In June, insiders sold about $8 of stock for every $1 they bought, according to TrimTabs. That ratio has climbed sharply since the end of last year.
…In fact, insider selling accelerates immediately after buybacks are unveiled, according to a recent SEC analysis. The study found that in 2017 and early 2018, the percentage of insiders selling stock more than doubled immediately after buyback announcements.

“Right after the company tells the market that the stock is cheap, executives overwhelmingly decide it’s time to sell,” SEC Commissioner Robert Jackson Jr. said in a June speech.

https://www.sec.gov/news/speech/speech-jackson-061118

..”But corporations didn’t invest most of that money in innovation. They didn’t invest it in retraining their workforce or raising wages. Instead, executives largely used the influx of fresh funds for massive stock buybacks.[3]

So when I first took this job, I worried that 14 years later history would repeat itself, and the tax bill would cause managers to focus on financial engineering rather than long-term value creation. Sure enough, in the first quarter of 2018 alone American corporations bought back a record $178 billion in stock.[4] On too many occasions, companies doing buybacks have failed to make the long-term investments in innovation or their workforce that our economy so badly needs.[5] And, because we at the SEC have not reviewed our rules governing stock buybacks in over a decade, I worry whether these rules can protect investors, workers, and communities from the torrent of corporate trading dominating today’s markets.[6]

Even more disturbing, there is clear evidence that a substantial number of corporate executives today use buybacks as a chance to cash out the shares of the company they received as executive pay.[7] We give stock to corporate managers to convince them to create the kind of long-term value that benefits American companies and the workers and communities they serve. Instead, what we are seeing is that executives are using buybacks as a chance to cash out their compensation at investor expense.

Executives often claim that a buyback is the right long-term strategy for the company, and they’re not always wrong. But if that’s the case, they should want to hold the stock over the long run, not cash it out once a buyback is announced. If corporate managers believe that buybacks are best for the company, its workers, and its community, they should put their money where their mouth is. That’s why I’m here today to call on my colleagues at the Commission to update our rules to limit executives from using stock buybacks to cash out from America’s companies…

#141 DON on 07.17.18 at 1:50 pm

#130 James
I am no fan of Trump…but he does have supporters. Foreign governments are known to have meddled in other countries elections. Now these indictments need to be dealt with in a court of law. Court of law and not the MSM. What Mr. Smoking Man says is reasonable.

Hey Dolce. IMO with respect to the Canuck MSM. Internationally they appear to be leftists….but on the provincial/local scene they are right leaning. Who owns the Canadian msm…they lack consistency. Look at the national post…constantly flip flopping on their economic outlook…aka quests.

#142 Ubul on 07.17.18 at 2:04 pm

#130 James on 07.17.18 at 10:05 am

When all, and I repeat “ALL” of the United States government criminal and secret service investigative agencies stated “Russia conspired and meddled in the 2016 election” what part of that don’t you get?

The part hard to get is your memory and logic.

It wasn’t too long ago, when ALL of the relevant, trusted agencies stated the existence of WMD, that directly resulted huge loss of life, destruction of wealth, culture.

These agencies also did swear under oath that the accusation of wholesale surveillance of the population was not true.

While ““ALL” of the United States government criminal and secret service investigative agencies stated “Russia conspired and meddled in the 2016 election” – NONE of those agencies got access to investigate the primary evidence, the supposedly hacked DNC servers.

Not because the Russians stole or destroyed those servers to cover their crime and make collecting evidence impossible, but because the DNC somehow found the power to refuse handing over the evidence, for “ALL” of the United States government criminal and secret service investigative agencies.

How is it possible, that the Democratic Party managed to override the standard procedures of criminal investigation of ALL US law enforcement and secret services?

These parts are hard to get.

#143 conan on 07.17.18 at 2:06 pm

WalkawayMovment has gone parabolic. Zero Dems at the mid terms. Watch and learn grasshopper. – smoking man

Lol it is going to be a wipe out. Meaning, the opposite of what you just said.

#144 jess on 07.17.18 at 2:07 pm

but smoking man ….do you mean the “global elite”?

what about when all the press is controlled?
The influential Turkish figures do not claim factual errors or inaccuracies but seek financial penalties for alleged damage to their reputations.

https://www.icij.org/investigations/paradise-papers/turkish-presidents-allies-in-press-freedom-attack-over-paradise-papers-reporting/

In November, Cumhuriyet published a series of stories as part of the global Paradise Papers investigation that revealed how politicians, multinational corporations and criminals had hidden money offshore and avoided taxes.

“Cumhuriyet is one of Turkey’s oldest newspapers, and it is one of the country’s very last independent media outlets,” Deloire added. “Nearly all the mainstream media now belong to government-affiliated investors, and they are used to wage a propaganda war against the opposition and civil society.”

============

ICIJ
‏Verified account @ICIJorg
Jun 20

A new leak from the #PanamaPapers reveals the chaotic scramble by Mossack Fonseca to survive. It also sheds light on unknown criminal investigations and reveals new findings about the world’s global elite. http://bit.ly/2I52RBC

#145 mike from mtl on 07.17.18 at 2:10 pm

#135 Another Deckchair on 07.17.18 at 12:14 pm

Anyone else want to chime in?
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I don’t understand the apprehension, combo funds are a mainstay in the mutual fund world; why would ETFs be any different?

Is it the ‘best’ thing? No probably not, you’re fixed into the fund’s breakdown and missing out on some specialist stuff like REITs. Same logic applies to ‘balanced’ mutuals.

Small accounts below say 25k I’d argue low MER mutuals are a better fit. Trading costs on ETFs would certainly close the MER gap considering total costs.

Larger accounts, yes break into ETFs of your choosing (lots to consider and read). Distributions are more efficient, fees lower in most cases and you can tax advantage specific areas in different holding accounts. Don’t go crazy contributing to RRSP unless you are certain of the tax implications.

Seven figures and above, by all means unbundle and buy direct shares. Then get your paperwork started in Gibraltar ;)

#146 Dan on 07.17.18 at 2:12 pm

Like, older people can drive 5 speed?

#147 NoName on 07.17.18 at 2:13 pm

Today I learned about mental accounting.

https://youtu.be/t96LNX6tk0U

#148 Newcomer on 07.17.18 at 2:19 pm

#132 David Martin on 07.17.18 at 10:13 am
I put the whole shebang into Vanguard VGRO
——-

Congratulations on putting the plug in the jug. There is no better long-term high than sobriety. If you are going the turning it over to an HP route, picking an ETF won’t cut the psychological mustard. You are still calling the shots. Better to let go and let an advisor. It’s also a good idea, if you are going that route of backing off the control, to avoid focusing on outcomes. If you were drinking heavily for 30 years, your perception of life after 10 years sober will be so different than it is now, that there is no point in trying to plan for it.

#149 MF on 07.17.18 at 2:33 pm

25 Bytor the Snow Dog on 07.17.18 at 9:30 am

Italy is receiving boat loads of 500 – 1000 desperate migrants from Africa and the Mid East by the day.

Toronto is not.

Your analogy is flat out incorrect and makes you look out of touch wih Reality.

MF

#150 Barb on 07.17.18 at 2:36 pm

The wedding’s 4 weeks away? That’s unfortunate.

I’d elope.
You’ve seen enough of those folks.

They probably even selected the napkin colour for the reception.

#151 IHCTD9 on 07.17.18 at 3:08 pm

“And if I didn’t like the condo market.. why didn’t I just move back home (to the boonies) and get a house? It’s what all my friends did, it’s what all my cousins are doing, and it’s what will give me room to build a family.”
___________________________

It’s what I did too, 17 years ago.

If I sold my place right now, I’d make 1-2% tops after an HONEST assessment of the REAL cost of ownership.

Consider the above, and then add to it:

1. The fact that we enjoyed ~1/3rd of our mortgage payments with a sub-prime variable that dipped all the way to 1.5% for a while. Also the fact that it was paid for in 14 years. Interest (part of cost of ownership…) savings were huge!

2. That I do all of the labour maintaining and upgrading our place myself. Entire additions to the house, roofing multiple times, new windows, new heating system, new and rebuilt expansive decks and railings, big renovations. This would have been tens of thousands of dollars to sub out.

If I can’t make real money in the boonies via selling my house, nobody can…

#152 A J on 07.17.18 at 3:14 pm

#137 Smoking Man

You’re absolutely delusional. It’s almost getting sad now. If you watched that news conference yesterday, and didn’t see how morally bankrupt Trump and Putin are, maybe you should get your eyes checked for glaucoma. You talk about corruption in the mainstream media, government, etc….can you not see the corruption of Trump and Putin? People getting fired up about this issue isn’t hysteria. It’s disgust and dismay at how fast America’s democracy is crumbling. You’re just another blind “patriot” who probably spends more time drunken googling crackpot conspiracy theory videos, than using the grey matter between your skull. You think you’re free? You’re just another shill like the ones you despise so much. But what’s sad is, you can’t even see it.

#153 James on 07.17.18 at 3:14 pm

#137 Smoking Man on 07.17.18 at 12:41 pm

Doesn’t take much to make you Hysterical James. Your name calling is a badge of honour I will proudly wear.
Quoting an article from the Guardian. A globalist rag right up there with Washington Post. You are clueless to what’s going on behind the curtain and hope you have a good financial advisor managing your money. Otherwise, you’re doomed with your line of thinking. You have no clue what’s about to happen in Canada.
Republicans and Democrats are one of the same, their institutions,crimal mafia cabal since Kennedy.
Trump the outsider got in by Deplorables tired of being kicked around by globalist scum who control education, msm, hollywood. They are losing power just as fast as Harvey Winstean. The hysterics is all about losing power.
The #WalkawayMovment has gone parabolic. Zero Dems at the mid terms. Watch and learn grasshopper.
__________________________________________
Smoking Man I can’t believe you get so aroused with your lover Donald John Trump. It is as if you are his little bitch, but then again Trump is Putin’s little bitch. The whole world just witnessed Trump and his boot licking. BTW WTF is with you anyway, is any contrarian view to yours always a leftist secretive globalist threat? Damn your an angry sick old,old,old man. Did you get hit on the head a lot when you were a child? Go and get some aripiprazole and take a nap old man.

#154 Dissident on 07.17.18 at 3:20 pm

#91 Same shit different pile on 07.16.18 at 9:57 pm

Also, why would you ever think that you NEED to buy a cottage just because everyone else you know has one?!? The status symbol of ‘look what I spent my money on and now I have two, count em two, mortgages”. There is such thing as RENTING an amazing, jaw-dropping cottage several times out of the year, for WAY less than actually buying and maintaining one! That’s why all those people rent their million dollar cottages out for the year – they are losing money if they don’t! And you could afford to rent a nicer one than you could actually afford to buy.

I’m glad you have a financial advisor who gifted you with a 1.5 mil portfolio. I think you need to get ‘advised’ before you do something silly.

#155 jess on 07.17.18 at 3:22 pm

An Extraordinary Link for Archenemies in Spying
Intelligence: Hotline allowed secret meetings between CIA, KGB, and eased Cold War tensions.
December 31, 1997|JAMES RISEN | TIMES STAFF WRITER

“Gavrilov channel,” after a 19th century Russian poet

http://articles.latimes.com/1997/dec/31/news/mn-3817
=======
Risen’s comments on the latest meeting in helsinki

“” key differences between the Gavrilov channel and the Trump-Putin meeting was that the CIA always insisted on having at least two American officers present – no one from the CIA could meet the KGB alone. That guaranteed that no American could hand over secrets to the KGB without at least one other American knowing about it; it also insured that no American would come under unfair suspicion of being a KGB spy simply by meeting with the Russians alone.
https://theintercept.com/2018/07/16/trump-putin-summit-helsinki/

#156 Boots on the Ground in Ptown on 07.17.18 at 3:30 pm

REGARDING: RELIEF FOR AUTO INDUSTRY TARIFFS AFFECTING CANADA

https://bcm.nacm.org/index.php/blog/safety-net-protects-canadian-automakers-from-possible-retaliatory-us-tariffs

#157 NoName on 07.17.18 at 3:49 pm

@ Jeff

Send them this.
https://youtu.be/9PnbKL3wuH4

#158 Smoking Man on 07.17.18 at 4:05 pm

152 A J on 07.17.18 at 3:14 pm
#137 Smoking Man

You’re absolutely delusional. It’s almost getting sad now. If you watched that news conference yesterday, and didn’t see how morally bankrupt Trump and Putin are, maybe you should get your eyes checked for glaucoma. You talk about corruption in the mainstream media, government, etc….can you not see the corruption of Trump and Putin? People getting fired up about this issue isn’t hysteria. It’s disgust and dismay at how fast America’s democracy is crumbling. You’re just another blind “patriot” who probably spends more time drunken googling crackpot conspiracy theory videos, than using the grey matter between your skull. You think you’re free? You’re just another shill like the ones you despise so much. But what’s sad is, you can’t even see it
……..
State of USA
Lower taxes, more jobs than can be filled. Rediculous regulations cut. America is booming like never before. Wages gains coming soon. Crop profits up.

T2 will blow Nafta. You will be beating cheat yelping out a tarzan rift smiling with pride while there will be no jobs for you and the Canadian economy goes into a deep shit.

And all you give a crap about is Trumps Decorum. Do yoursrlf a favour. Get a financial advisor.

#159 TSX on 07.17.18 at 4:11 pm

i’ve always wondered why people invest in the TSX. If it weren’t for tax advantages for a non-registered account there would be no reason to put a penny in it..other than patriotism..

returns lower than the US market, historically, consistently. It’s like the evidence is there yet people ignore it.

why?…..pure home bias?

#160 Ace Goodheart on 07.17.18 at 4:16 pm

Two types of people get rich:

1. Smart people

2. Lucky people

Your older relatives are lucky people.

You are a smart person.

Your younger relatives, with their multiple property holdings in the suburbs and mounds of debt, are neither smart, nor lucky.

#161 A J on 07.17.18 at 4:41 pm

#158 Smoking Man

Not everything is about money. Clearly you sold your soul for profit and gains a long time ago. Greed is one of the seven deadly sins remember? Not that you’d care though. Cause, jobs, jobs, jobs! What will you have left when your economy crumbles? Because it will one day. Not everything goes up. But, keep making excuses and covering your eyes. Whatever helps you see past this train wreck of a President.

#162 GCR1968 on 07.18.18 at 8:44 am

What a brilliant post! Love your comments and advice.

#163 David on 07.18.18 at 11:34 am

Dotards do get into the PMO. Sometimes they’re elected. Just like Mr. Dressup.