Recently I razzed a guy for wanting to send his five-year-old to private school when he clearly can’t afford it. I asked why he’s doing it. “Is your kid that special?” He was appalled. Apparently everybody’s child is better than all the others, which makes publicly-funded education innately inferior.
It’s stunning how many parents with dismal retirement or future prospects are willing to fork over $20,000 a year for a private school at the same time they’re paying taxes to support the perfectly good one down the street.
Bonnie just chimed in with this comment:
“You bashed the guy who wants to send his kid to private school even though he can’t really afford it. I would be interested to get your perspective on how to ensure that our kids grow up financially literate and with academic/any type of self-discipline. Many of my parent and teacher friends are pretty disillusioned with the Canadian public school system, both from our own experiences in our growing-up years and what we observe with our kids. It seems like kids are coddled and babysat and are passed up in grades even if they haven’t mastered the knowledge content yet, then they go out in the work world and totally can’t cope. I feel like this is directly related to your many references to how Canadians make poor financial choices. Our school system should be providing us with the emotional and intellectual tools to make clear headed informed decisions about our lives, finances and the world around us, and the system is not doing that for many kids. It’s widely felt that the public school system as it is today is failing kids in these respects. Again, interested in your perspective.”
Hmm. Strikes me in a world where everybody now requires a university degree, seriously delaying adulthood, that where you took Grade 4 is irrelevant. Isn’t it far more beneficial for your little genius to plug into a good university, then exit with no student debt? Or slog through med or dentistry school without having to wait tables at night?
Sure it is. So shelling out $150,000 for a grade school experience that could have been had for free, while failing to amass that amount for post-secondary costs is purely hormonal and myopic. And probably elitist and arrogant. It certainly isn’t in the best interests of the family unit, unless you have wealth – which 99% of us don’t.
This brings us to something a helluva lot more useful for your little monsters: the RESP.
For the past fifteen years the feds have let parents invest for their children in a tax-free environment, and also topped up the accounts annually with free money. This fact alone – a gift equal to 20% of your contribution – should be incentive enough to play. And yet so many people do not, or get involved with the wrong kind of RESP – the ones flogged by the baby-sniffing salesguys who lurk around new moms.
In case you’re hazy, a registered educational savings plan is like a TFSA – a vehicle in which you dump money which is then invested for tax-free growth, but without any deduction from your taxable income (like an RRSP). You’re allowed a lifetime limit of $50,000 per kid, which earns a maximum grant of $7,200. Generally speaking, if you put $2,500 a year into the plan, then the feds will hand over $500. Sweet. Whenever Ottawa gives you money, take it. (There are also extra grants if you live in Alberta or Quebec, which figures.)
When the child goes to university, college or trade school (full or part-time) the money can be withdrawn and is taxable in his or her hands (but only the growth portion – the rest is taxless). If your kid disappoints you by becoming a billionaire rock star, then you can transfer up to $50,000 into your RRSP (subject to certain conditions, like the plan being at least 10 years old) if you have available contribution room.
Or if you have a family RESP, funds can be used by the sibling who does not turn into a rocker or a masseuse. With a family plan, ensure each year you make a contribution that you designate which kid gets what, so the grant money can flow accordingly. By the way, with a family plan, the beneficiary (the monster) can be your child, a grandkid, your sister, or an adopted family member. With an individual plan, however, the beneficiary need not be related to you.
To set this up, the child requires a social insurance number, then you must decide what kind of plan. But that’s easy. Self-directed. Sure, there are lots of pooled funds around, sold by the baby-sniffers, but most of them involve high upfront fees, a limited ability to exit and questionable investment returns. Remember, like a RRSP or a TFSA, this RESP is not a product – it’s just a vehicle into which you place things that grow.
So, a self-directed plan will allow you to fill it up with a nice diversity of growth assets (like the ETFs this blog has described). Don’t fall into the emotional trap of buying GICs because your special little creation needs to be protected with guaranteed investments. If you have at least a decade until the funds will be used, then go for growth, since volatility will be defeated by time. Once you’re a few years away from school needs, the RESP can be converted into a series of no-surprise strip bonds, maturing each September. If you have no idea what I just said, get an advisor to manage this for you.
There are many more rules, but these are the principal points. And given the escalation in the cost of tuition, books, residence and beer, sending your package off to university in the years or decades to come could be financially crippling. The RESP is one way to mitigate that. Or, you could just abstain, and buy a Harley.
Tough choice.
196 comments ↓
Alice’s rant is so ridiculous!
Canada’s public primary and secondary education system is pretty good when compared with any other country in the world.
What she doesn’t realize is that education starts at home. Stop blaming the public education system and start taking responsibility.
Our North American school education is a pity
Chinese & Indian school kids are mastering science & math in great numbers.
Parents expecting the government to teach their kids basic life skills like financial responsibility. What has this country come to?
Parental problem not a school systems problem, that kids can’t cope. If they go to school motivated they’re given all the tools to succeed in life. I will agree that finances should be added to the curriculum….
“It’s stunning how many parents with dismal retirement or future prospects are willing to fork over $20,000 a year for a private school at the same time they’re paying taxes to support the perfectly good one down the street.”
Indulgent parents bringing up self satisfied kids. It is something that has and will increasingly come back to bite us. The kids (and their parents) have no sense of discipline.
The Dog and Kid = both kind of wrinkly?
RESP EXAMPLE
My two kids are first year college and grade 12.
Total RESP contributions:
$69,997 Grants, about $11,500
No more contributions are allowed at this point, or at least none that attract grants…
Value now $176,111 (First $5000 withdrawal is in progress)
It’s worked out okay…
Strategy – self-directed in stocks (2008 hurt…)
Whatever they don’t spend I will likely give to them in TSFA…
Ontario at least is doing a poor job of teaching math. As a parent, to deal with this your choices are to either tutor them yourself in math, hire a tutor, or find a private school.
Tutors are a lot cheaper than private school.
Garth, in which situations are RESPs better than TFSAs?
e.g is there any level of student income at which the family would be better off using interest income from a parent’s TFSA rather than the interest and grant income from an RESP?
No RESP, no government grant. That’s a guaranteed 20% annual return. — Garth
All public school systems are set up for the middle 80%, that is the only fiscally sane way to do it. If your child is in the bottom 10% or top 10% you are going to have to fight with the system OR send them to a private school (or home school if you feel you are qualified).
If your child is disabled in some fashion, don’t forget that a Doctor’s note will allow you to claim their school fees as a Medical Expense (BUT you must apply to the CRA for this first, and they must approve it).
Some of the wealthiest people I know (and in history) didn’t pass grade 10. People think their kids chance of success is directly proportional to the amount of money they pump into the pockets of people who say they will make your kid smarter than others. It’s a great racket because at the end of it there’s no way of measuring if your kid is smarter than if he stayed in the regular school system. The parent just feels better that he or she “did all they could do” to help little Hunter or Buffy make it in life (and takes the poor parenting blame off of the parent).
95% of the “special” kids I know (from my kids lives) or grew up with (when I was a kid) ….. end up back in “normal” school by grade 9 and turn out to be average after all and struggle their way through life like everyone else. Except most have an expectation that they will do better because they went to a spacial school …. and become crushed when they realize they weren’t special after all.
From my observation …. pissed off “chip on their shoulder” scrappy kids do well in life. Tough times are ahead … and a tenacious, cunning, hard working person with for-sight will rise to the top.
I think you’d have a better chance of building a successful kid if you taught him or her how to be an expert poker and Monopoly player, teach them to watch and understand survivor (fake boobs and all), and signed him or her up to boxing, karate or rep level hockey. Canada is only going to get tougher from now on ….. this “buy a better education and job” …. “cruise through life with a comfy job” “I’m ok you’re ok” ….. “we’re all winners” crap ain’t going to get your kid anywhere. Tough, street smart and hungry is (and always was) the way to success.
For the few jobs that require the highest education …. I fully understand you gotta pay those high multi year tuition’s …. but for the other 95% of the kiddies …. save your money …. steer them to street smarts and toughness.
Garth being the liberal little puppy that he is he would never and I mean never admit the Chinese are screwing our unrestricted real estate market with laundered money if his tiny balls were entangled in his beard and set on fire!
Some days I wonder why I do this… — Garth
Judging by this poor child’s weight.
Affording university tuition the least of the parents problems….diabetes, high cholesterol and years of medical bills await.
Gartho You are really trying hard to goat me into another ravenous post, first the fat kid pic, then my favorite topic.
I’m working on it.
Garth,
Is there a max annual contribution? Can I dump the max in all at once and get 20% matching funds, instead of doing it year by year?
No. — Garth
@#12 Just an Observation.
Hmmmm, I see Neanderthals CAN type………….
Elementary school did not teach my child
– alphabet (KG)
– grammar [4 to 6]
– math basics (eg., times tables) [4 to 6]
– cursive writing [4 to 5]
Nor did it teach any of his peers these skills.
The square brackets represent the years I learned these skills at my private school – I was recently looking through the box of my notebooks from those years. Note that for KG through 3 I was in the public school system.
All those skills have been very helpful for me throughout my adult years, both personally, and in work. (I have been self employed most of my 33 working years with no other source of income.)
My child learned those skills through our evening and weekend “homework” times – we did homework that was unrelated to the school curriculum. I suspect that many people (who pay property taxes and therefore fund the system) are not aware of the extent of lack of learning that is occurring in the elementary years. Since I live in a neighbourhood which appears to be ~90% immigrant, I am also hearing from these new Indian immigrant parents who are telling me they are shocked at the poor level of education. Some have said to me, ‘If I had known it was this poor, I would not have emigrated.’
I view our system as two things: social development and daycare for working parents. Grade 11 and 12 are a stronger educating environment however for those who did not do the fundamentals prior to those grades, I see them struggle.
These are my direct experiences and observations.
However, having been through the formative years at a private school, I can also say that private school is not for everyone. It really is best suited to the natural academic mind or studious individual.
Finally, for those who say, “Nobody needs cursive anymore…” I say that for all those who wish to study historical documents prior to the onset of the typewriter, cursive writing is critical. Those students who did not or have not learned cursive… which appears to be most of them these days, cannot READ cursive either. Again, this is my direct observation from the friends of my child.
Get the Harley.
Slightly un-related but as someone who has a parent as a teacher and knows other teachers I had to respond to:
“It seems like kids are coddled and babysat and are passed up in grades even if they haven’t mastered the knowledge content yet, then they go out in the work world and totally can’t cope.”
You know why teachers do that? Because parents aren’t doing their own jobs in raising their own kids.
Teachers have to deal with 30+ kids in a class, and you expect them to have time to spend with your precious child each step of the way?
Even when teachers work really hard to bring a fun-filled, educational spin on the material, know what I see from parents and hear ALL THE TIME?
1. “My kids’ grades aren’t high enough. I don’t know why he/she is getting such low marks!”
When you reply: “It’s because they haven’t done the assignment and can’t seem to focus in class.”
They get irate and scream back at you: “That’s YOUR problem that YOU can’t control them. You have to give them a second chance to do the assignment for more marks again.”
So teachers avoid this whole fight, this argument and going before the principal to be ‘told off’, and just pass your brats.
Not only that, even when kids can’t read, they’re passed onto the next grade even though they are TOLD they should be held back, but parents fight to have their kids in the same age cohort so he doesn’t feel dumb.
2. Parents enable their children to be losers
Not all parents, but many parents don’t even listen to the teacher when a kid acts up in class, has a behavioural problem and/or can’t do the work.
Again, they just pass the kids because they do NOT want to be hauled in front of the principal and go through this hoopla each time, every semester, every child, every helicopter parent that comes swooping down to defend their baby.
3. Parents don’t seem to care about academia.
Know how many kids miss class? A LOT. Why? Because they’re going to tournaments for sports, they’re going on vacation with their parents that they simply “cannot miss”, but they come back and expect to pass without having done any of the work all year.
Yeah…. so tell me again why you need to spend $20,000 in private tuition? It’s because you get the coddling your precious one deserves because you can’t do your job at home as a parent and work with the teachers to make sure your children are disciplined, educated and are hard workers who get the job done.
Instead, you come in and blame the teachers for your child getting low grades, or “not high enough grades” to pass into the university or high school of their choice.
DO YOUR DAMN JOB AS A PARENT. Spend time with your children. Teach them to read and cut off TV time, as well as cutting off all hobbies and sports until they have good grades.
It is NOT that hard.
/rant
The trend of parents sending little ones to private school may seem like the peak of financial stupidity, but it is only a part of the overall story.
In North Toronto (and, I’m sure hundreds of other neighbourhoods across the country), parents pay a crazy premium to live in the right school district, and then send their kids to private school anyway! Almost every single realtor.ca ad in midtown/north Toronto makes sure to mention “wanless” or “ralph road” or whatever the top school is in the area… clearly the house horniness in the RE market is driven by the parental desire to be in the “best” school district.
But – look at how packed the private schools are! Clearly the same parents who paid a huge sum to live near a specific school decide that the school isn’t good enough for little Jimmy/Sally/whoever, and shun that school for the uniformed private place down the road.
Why does it seem like, “kids are coddled and babysat and are passed up in grades even if they haven’t mastered the knowledge content yet, then they go out in the work world and totally can’t cope”? Because parents spend more time hustling to make ends meet, than they do teaching their kids any of the useful skills/integrity necessary to cope! Parents are always coming in to teachers with crap like, “what are you doing for my kid?” and complaining about poor grades.
What are YOU doing to help your kid? I agree with Garth… invest the time in your kid, rather than in making more $$.
A kid coming out of university has no advantage over a high school drop out that’s a wizard with key word searches.
20 years ago there was no Internet, The schooled had tremendous advantage. Not any more. They are actually at a disadvantage. The un schooled street smart believe everyone is lying to them, and negotiate from a street wise prospective. The schooled can have the wool over there eyes effortlessly.
Today with having any information a mouse click away, it is pure insanity to pay crazy loot for an obedience certificate.
So you need a degree to get a job. So what, who wants a job, it’s f-en slavery reserved for idiots that can’t think for themselves.
Better to be a un refined scumbag, find someone to fund an idea, hire grads to be your bitches, make it happen, and make you money.
It’s so easy, and so obvious to the un schooled.
My son, last born is killing it out there. Selling stuff for huge loot that is available free.
His apprenticeship is almost complete.
Son of Smoking Man
Garth – even the Brits are joining in:
“Canada’s housing market teeters precariously”
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/06e556b4-48d1-11e3-a3ef-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=uk#axzz2kI06gKcK
While I totally agree with Garth that paying for private school is crazy when you don’t really have the money to spare, I do echo some of Bonnie’s sentiments. Mainly, our kids are too coddled. I don’t know about how the private education system works. In the public system, no longer handing out zeroes to kids who don’t do their work? No winning/losing, just participation? Because all this competition may be too much for the little ones?
No. Actions have consequences, even the little ones need to learn that.
I have a hunch that many people send their kids to private school not because of just the belief that they provide superior education, but rather the desire to have their kids mingle with other kids of “who’s who” in society.
It’s certainly clear that we are living in a world where “who you know” has become more important than “what you know”. Schools are the access point for getting into universities and if people want their kids growing up with the Jones’ kids than they figure private school is the way to go.
RE: #11 2CentsCdn on 11.10.13 at 6:49 pm
I think you’d have a better chance of building a successful kid if you taught him or her how to be an expert poker and Monopoly player, teach them to watch and understand survivor (fake boobs and all), and signed him or her up to boxing, karate or rep level hockey
Yes, reality TV and a few more hits to the head will improve those standardized test results.
I spent several years in both the public and private school worlds and although I can only speak for my own experience, the quality of education I received while in private school was far superior to public school. My parents only took us out because money became tight.
It’s the private schools that coddle kids, not public schools. Get it right. Generally speaking, kids marks go up 10 points when they transfer to private schools because teachers hold the students hands through the courses. One exception to this is probably UTS. Private school where kids go to pull their weight like they should.
The only reason why parents should consider private schools is if the neighborhood school is perceived to be unsafe. Mind you if this is the case, try to get your child moved to a different school through optional attendance.
Of course if money is no issue, send your child wherever you please…public, private, overseas.
http://herofund.ca/11-for-11/
reap the wind on 11.10.13 at 7:23 pm
@#12 Just an Observation.
Hmmmm, I see Neanderthals CAN type………….
So, what’s your point girly boy
Anything else of substance to ad….LOL
#12 Just an observation
Grow some balls and get off your a$$ and quit blaming the Chinese, the liberals and Garth.
In case you didn’t notice, Garth is Conservative-leaning in political affiliation (or was until he got kicked out of the caucus), and the real estate system as we currently know it in Canada has been under Conservative party guidance for the past 8 years or so.
PS – As far as I know, Alberta, Quebec and Ontario do not have huge immigration-based populations of Asians, but real estate have been rising in these markets over the same period too. Cheap money thanks to central bankers has been fuelling this fire.
The way I see it, you have two choices:
1) Keep pointing the finger and laying the blame game, being a racist prick and growing bitter, or…
2) Work, save and follow free and honest investment whenever someone is gracious enough to give it to you; oh, and don’t insult them in the process…
PS – If you follow #2, you’ll probably be much happier and wealthier.
#12 Just an observation on 11.10.13 at 7:11 pm — “Some days I wonder why I do this… — Garth”
You didn’t do anything. The person concerned did it to themselves (look in the mirror). If that person wants to show him- or herself as a complete bimron (bimbo – moron), that is their freedom of choice.
Please don’t stop them. We all need mad comic relief from the stuff of this world.
I can assure you that, as a public school teacher, my colleagues who teach in the private school panel can attest to the grades that are BOUGHT by rich parents… believe me, private education is a joke.. at least in the public boards teachers don’t have to feel like some goof driving a Cayenne is going to attempt to bribe a teacher for an ‘A’
RESP’s, Good topic up for discussion today.
Garth, please consider adding the Registered Disability Savings Plan(RDSP) to your punch list of future blog postings.
This 2008 launched program is very generous with a contributor adding the first $1500 into the plan and receiving $2000 from the govt., depending on income. The RDSP has been tweaked since its inception with a poorly conceived roll out and the banks can also shoulder some of the blame for not being particularly engaged.
As a parent of a recently disabled adult daughter, I can tell you that I have taken full advantage of this for her.
Estimates of >15% of the Cnd. populace becoming declared disabled as we age make this more than just a fringe program.
Still this article won’t make a lot of sense to parents doting over their lil bundles of joy.
Nasty Pic of the Fat kid.
Rosie Dimanno a gifted writer at the Toronto Star, her only job ever, since 1975, I am sure her photo in her column is dated.
I’m sure starting her carrier, mama and papa, where proud of there daughter, she got schooled recognition and all the perks of a celebrity writer.
She has lost her mind of late, what happened to sports, look at all the Ford bashing she’s doing.
http://www.thestar.com/authors.rosie_dimanno.html
Why I ask myself, what is the underling issue here ?
I have a theory, because she can.
Now if she used the N word on a black dude, The F word on a Homosexual she would be Tared and feathered in less than one sleep.
I believe, without prejudice she has some frustration issues, the need to lash out furiously means something missing in her life.
What better target than a Fat person, no one will defend them, no one likes them. They get no respect by society.
The guy running the show at Lulu lemon said, FAT need not buy their clothing.
People Mob the FAT.
It’s a fact.
DELETED
@17 Wall flower:
Elementary school did not teach my child
– alphabet (KG)
– grammar [4 to 6]
– math basics (eg., times tables) [4 to 6]
– cursive writing [4 to 5]
Nor did it teach any of his peers these skills.
Bullshit. Your lazy ass kids didn’t try, lied to you about what they were being taught and you fell for it. Coddling indeed.
Private boarding school didn’t secure me with a career or FAB job. It introduced me to adolescent same sex experimentation and gave peace of mind to my parents I wasn’t around or making an unwanted pregnancy.
Aw, how cute… a shar-puppy and a shar-peiby!
#33 Bob Rice on 11.10.13 at 8:15 pm
I can assure you that, as a public school teacher,
……………………………………..
Hey how you doing Bob.
Question for you?
Do you or your colleges ever ask yourselves, who owns the Universities, why text books shelf life is over the day after the term ends.
You guys ever do a head count at a lecture hall, x the number of heads, x the amount of classes a day, x the year.
No chup change is it.
See only smoking men do that kind of math, trying to figure how to get a piece of the action.
You guys focus on calculus and behavior shaping, last thing you guys what to do is fill the world critical thinkers, that will realize
One math teacher on You tube can teach the entire world math.
Not good for business is it.
#11 2CentsCdn: “Canada is only going to get tougher from now on ….. this “buy a better education and job” …. “cruise through life with a comfy job” “I’m ok you’re ok” ….. “we’re all winners” crap ain’t going to get your kid anywhere.”
***************
I read somewhere today — CBC News, probably, can’t find the article — that a Canadian school (or schools) are going to eliminate their Honor Rolls because the kids that don’t make the Honor Roll will be crushed forever….poor babies.
I think we’re going from the sublime to the ridiculous.
WRONG, NO GUTS ADVICE
folks – don’t do that post-colonial gov entices u to do
do what the rich to, bend the rules, not follow them
unite and make a few new political parties and put them to work for your KLASS of people – the 49% above the average and below 1% aggressive minds
capisci? obviously, Garth can’t tell you that, but I can. Forgot the RESP, teach your kids political and social activism as the enslaved generations of tomorrow need new leaders, yours – not appointed by the gov. general
I say, sell the RESP and pay down mortgage chains
This brings us to something a helluva lot more useful for your little monsters: the RESP.
solid advice Garth
in the case of private schools the message is that “your child is getting the best right now”
in the case of RESP it’s more like “if he does reasonably well in school and life then at some future date he will have an extra measure of support”
Wow so many thoughts on this subject.
1) Most importantly being successful in life is a package deal. You don’t need to be the best looking, smartest, most charming, most polite, most street smart, have the most common sense, best communicator, but if you only rank a 4-5 or less out of 10 on any ANY of the above good luck getting ahead. You will be limited. The people who are successful in life score a solid 7-8 in ALL of the above, (of course looks aside if you’re a man, think Rob Ford and Mike Dufffy – still a man’s world!) So you need to concentrate on more than just academics… they will only get you so far. How many geniuses do you run across who are so socially awkward, charmless, or can’t communicate their way out of paper bag, they top out and then get frustrated….
2) Private schools. A guy I knew in university who went to the elite, boy’s only, St. George’s private school in Vancouver said he thought he was way too coddled at private school and going to university was a great shock to him. He had a hard time competing against the public school kids because they had more self discipline. (His view.) That said, if you kid is on the margin and needs that extra attention (and coddling) you likely SHOULD make the investment in them. A bright kid is a bright kid, whether they go to private school or not.
3) Talk sense to your kids! Teach them how the world works. Make sure they know how to be humble, know how to be kind, can empathize, have some common sense…. make sure they have some manners. Make sure they realize that the sun doesn’t shine out of their a$$es. For sure advocate for your kids and make sure they know their rights and stick up for themselves, but make sure they know how to read a situation and behave appropriately.
4) Get your kid a job!
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/careers/career-advice/life-at-work/its-never-too-early-to-learn-job-skills/article15191756/
“There is no better life lesson than a kid working a part-time job, even when they are in school,” he said, arguing the experience will also show them what it takes to earn a living. “The quickest way to ruin a kid’s work ethic is to hand them the keys to a car they did not earn.”
Mark Jackson, managing director in Western Canada of the Hay Group management consulting firm, said employers are looking to hire young people who may not have the perfect experience for the job, but an eagerness to learn and an ability to work in teams.
“It’s the ability to understand other people … that it’s not just about ‘me,’” Mr. Jackson said.
The ability to accept negative feedback is also important. While Mr. Jackson said most young people today are eager to learn, that doesn’t necessarily translate into a willingness to hear they have some weaknesses, “especially if they’ve been told their whole lives they’re wonderful.”
5) An anecdote
I’ve heard that many of the large CA firms in Vancouver rather hire kids from Vancouver Island and certainly NOT from the west side of Vancouver. The Island kids are way hungrier.
6) #11 2CNTS CDN
Totally agree.
The little monster used her RESP to go to a private college. Made some money, traveled the world, came home and decided she wanted her undergrad. Which she is funding herself using her college diploma for job and grants. As for the other stuff, well we didn’t leave what she needed to learn ALL up to the public school, parents are pretty good teachers when it comes to fiscal responsibility. And the best part, she has her own apartment and can afford her own tutoring for stats. Coddling and blaming is a waste of precious time.
In his 1976 book “The Canadian Establishment” Peter C. Newman quotes a woman as saying: I send my girls to Bishop Strachan School so they won’t marry a plumber. Not because he ‘plumbs’ (sic) but because his background and ideals would be different from my girls.”
I would elaborate but …..
RE Asian Teaching
I am generalizing of course, but the average Asian does have a better education and they are generally better at regurgitating facts, but they aren’t as good at problem solving. Their system is too regimented. And I have been told that the single child policy in China has produced a generation of insufferable, selfish, entitled young adults, even worse than the Gen Y produced here.
Stereotype much? — Garth
In the old days the poor were overworked, underpaid, and undernourished.
Today they are underworked, overpaid (endless benefits and healthcare), and, oftentimes overfed/overweight.
Makes ya go hmm.
My immigrant parents taught me reading before entering school. I recall sitting there in Gr. 1 when they went next door getting Gr. 3 or 4 books for me.
Priceless.
#25 HAWK
Never went to private school and yet I have a better job than most of my friends who did.
“No RESP, no government grant. That’s a guaranteed 20% annual return. — Garth”
One-time return, not annual. The point is that the interest and grant in the RESP are taxable in the students hands, while the interest in the TFSA is not taxed.
That tradeoff indicates a tipping point possibly exists.
So at what level of student income does the after-tax value of the grant get exceeded by the income tax paid on interest earned on the RESP?
Uni kids don’t usually pay tax. — Garth
The idea that might make sense about expensive private schools for the elementary grades is that your child is forming valuable friendships with others who are probably well off. At the end of grade 8 your child would have spent more than half their life with these people and can have some valuable social relationships that can pay off in the future.
The best thing you can give your kids is your time and a good education!
I sent my kids to private school and would do it again in a heartbeat if I had the choice. Money very well spent.
Said they were more than prepared for university compared to many others in their classes.
And yes, the RESP is the best game in town. I’m surprised the government continues to allow it as it is so lucrative. The majority of people contributing are those who would be paying for their kids education anyways.
Seems like many are starting to flock to private schools.
As a parent of a 2nd grader and a JKer, I already decided that they will go to private school in their high-school years. Yes, it will be very expensive, however, there are some huge advantages to it
1 the private school students usually come from families with a higher level of education, they had good rearing, their parents paid more attention to their schooling, education and were more involved in the kids’ development. It is an environment that I want for my kids.
2 the private school kids pay more attention to studying well and my kids being around such people will also realize how important schooling is for succeeding in a career
3 at the very large financial company where I work, many people in upper management went to private schools. They are very smart, articulate, play politics well and simply provide a lot of value to the company by being efficient in what they do
4 since many kids in private schools come from families with connections or power or wealth, my kids will make connections that may help them a lot in the future
5 private schools offer better schooling than public schools and proof to this are different competitions where priv school kids win many awards. I know this from my friends whose kid is now in private school and they couldn’t be happier: the kid gets more attention from teachers, she progresses well in her studies etc. And my friends were forced to put the kid in private school simply because they were horrified by the very low quality of schooling the kid was getting in the public school. Now, not all public schools are bad, but I don’t want to take any chances, so private school is the way to go for us.
My wife and I work with both our kids so that when the time for private school comes, they are well prepared for it. My second-grader these days resolves at least 100 math exercises a day (we are doing addition now and the total number of exercises for addition will be over 5000 when she will be done with it, then it will be subtraction, multiplication then division), we spent over 600 dollars on books on critical thinking from The Critical Thinking Company and will go through them with both kids, etc. All these things – in addition to the school program. I am not even writing about all the encyclopedias, books, magazines that we bought till now and will buy in the future.
Question to you, Garth: do you have kids? From your post tonight I guess you don’t.
Smoking Man: I know you don’t agree with so much schooling, but we hope the kids will become doctors, and one needs to be well schooled for that.
#2
Many Chinese families provide extra tutoring on the side. Schooling does not end when the public schools are closed. They also have weekend classes in some cases.
There is a risk of overworking your kids with this sort of lifestyle. I also know firsthand from teaching and TAing many university courses that students from Asian countries become really good at playing the system by cheating. (Eastern Europeans as well). That catches up to one in later life.
Nevertheless, you are bang on that their academic achievement is far above that of other ethnics groups these days, whether by hard work or by devious means. Hard for others to compete. Read up on the culture in Korea for an idea of what domestic kids from other cultures have to compete with in terms of work ethic.
Garth
I send my kid to a private school in Vancouver and it is worth every penny when compared to the deteriorating public schools. Just so you know, the class size is 20. (and no two grades sitting in the same room as in public schools in the area)
Sorry to say but the public schools are as overrated in Canada.
Also, where I send my kids to school is none of your business. As far as preaching economics to the sheeple, you are wasting your time. I say this with all due respect.
#33
” at least in the public boards teachers don’t have to feel like some goof driving a Cayenne is going to attempt to bribe a teacher for an ‘A’”
Funny. My father is one of Vancouver’s oldest serving and most respected educational psychologists. That means visiting many schools, not just being stuck at one. He is responsible for giving kids assessments for various tasks (reading, writing, etc). He testifies in court fairly frequently to boot. After god knows how many years in the business, I can tell you that there IS pressure on parents in public schools from parents who think their little snotling is precious and gifted, even if they are as dumb as a stump.
In particular, he is fond of telling anecdotes about the children of physicians and lawyers who turn out to be much less intelligent than their parents (regression to the mean), and who often suffer from nintendo-itis (being left to their own devices due to their parents’ busy schedule).
Another fond tale is of the myriad asian parents who want to get their subpar offspring into university, even though the kids often have poor abilities if not some more serious condition. They go right to the school board, making threats and causing a ton of paperwork and anxiety.
Public school isn’t free of politics.
My wife asked what’s the main difference between a Harley and a Goldwing. My reply was, when passing an oncoming motorcycle in the car, if it sounds like a loud wet raspberry, it was a Harley, if it was the quiet “whooose”of power, it was a Goldwing .
Post #15 – RESP clarification
Please note government will only pay up to 1 year’s on catch-up grants.
Cheers
Every year. — Garth
(Had first few years in the Catholic system, where many teachers were perverted or violent. Over to public system and just as many there were alcoholics. Kids are very canny.)
Just remembered this, a glimmer of dope at this private school. The kids are all right?
http://www.torontolife.com/informer/features/2013/07/24/hight-times-at-appleby-collage/
“When the prestigious private school expelled a 12th grader named Gautam Setia for lighting a bong in his dorm on the night before finals, his parents launched a lawsuit. They believe he was cheated out of his diploma—and his future”
You must read all the posts from Unfair. I guess 50 grand would help pay for a year’s worth of trips to the restaurants. I don’t have any children but one of my brother’s kids may make it big in sports but no one knows which one yet. He went to private schools and is looking to move to Boston to attend M.I. T. but has many pending scholarships in various sports. He plays for the national rugby team but also plays football and hockey at the highest level. At least you can use the money for any university in the world not just in Canada.
Private school to public school is an apple to orange comparison. Every school is unique. It’s all about what you can afford. Spending time with your child and library books costs nothing. Private school is like real estate, it’s nice if you can afford it.
Mediabuff: there’s really no case where that would happen. If the family is rich enough, they’ll be maxing both anyway. It’s unlikely an RESP beneficiary will be the breadwinner in the house, and even in such an unusual situation, would likely not remain several tax brackets above their parents once schooling starts and they actually make withdrawals. If you have a 16-year-old at home making $80k then by all means seek out some customized advice on how to optimize your taxes, but for everybody in the real world the CESG can’t be beat.
#56 gladiator on 11.10.13 at 9:20 pm
Smoking Man: I know you don’t agree with so much schooling, but we hope the kids will become doctors, and one needs to be well schooled for that.
………………………………………………
Dude you I like the way you think, and I don’t expect anyone on here to have my vision, I was dead once, learned everything flying threw the UCC.
But what is Dr-isam, learn lat-tin, a Lagrange not taught anymore. They use it to confuse the general population, no different than a salesmen complicating and baffling them with bull shit to own their belief system and close the deal
A surgeon acquires his skills working on cadavers, mentored by other experienced cutters, just like a rotation student is mentored to trade and understand swaps.
All the shit they learn at obidiance camp barely used.
I would rather see a medicine woman on a Indian reservation if I had a serious illness that go to main stream Dr and Big pharma.
There success rate is amazing, but know one knows about that.
The end result of a good education is that you learned how to learn and that process never ends.
“I know you don’t agree with so much schooling, but we hope the kids will become doctors, and one needs to be well schooled for that.”
You don’t need to be well schooled. In fact, you kid will end up like alot of my peers, burnt out in high school/undergrad, and not wanting to keep pushing.
You need motivation. You need determination. You need hunger.
You can’t teach that in either school. And if it burns out too early, you’ll never get it back.
12# just an observation! Cici on31took the words reight out of my mouth! This person has some real problems! Garth doesn’t need that kind of bs!
-=jwk=- on 11.10.13 at 8:37 pm @17 Wall flower:
Elementary school did not teach my child
– alphabet (KG)
– grammar [4 to 6]
– math basics (eg., times tables) [4 to 6]
– cursive writing [4 to 5]
Nor did it teach any of his peers these skills.
Bullshit. Your lazy ass kids didn’t try, lied to you about what they were being taught and you fell for it. Coddling indeed.
= = = = = = = = = = = =
I have a work ethic oriented child. The opposite of lazy. (In fact, he is the only one of his peers who does not use twitter and only visits facebook about once per month. He does not play video games nor does he watch tv – we do not have cable. He is always studying when he is not training ~20 hours per week for his sport, except when he goes out with friends.) He collected more academic awards than any of his peers at his grade 8 graduation (which he actually did not attend because he insisted on playing his club soccer game and I have always let him prioritize his time accordingly; he doesn’t need much guidance, he is highly self motivated). His teachers considered him one of the most studious children in each of his years. Now, if you wish to comment that my lazy ass kid was truly lazy ass and that the teachers were lazy ass for grading him top of the class all the time, I am okay with that. And, during his 9 years (KG through 8) at elementary school, I only once spoke with one of his teachers: to inquire, “When do the students learn grammar?”
The school did NOT teach the alphabet. They do not (or did not during his time) teach that. They taught phonetic combinations. So, instead of teaching the alphabet, the curriculum delivered a system of phonetic combination exercises during grade 1. He learned the alphabet from his parents and family. For each of those other points above, there is a similar story.
As for the various compare/contract comments on private/public education throughout these responses, this topic really is rich and deep however I would like to add [1] that many of my private school peers never needed a job, and still do not. (Family trusts.) [2] the comments about buying grades is foreign to my experience: students “achieved” failing grades at my private school and had to repeat classes – I NEVER ONCE SAW THAT IN MY SON’S YEARS IN PUBLIC SCHOOL [3] I learned to sew over the course of 2 years at private school and I use these wonderful skills to this day, 42 years later, and I never knew the public system to teach a single person how to sew [4] I was so bored during public school high school after 5 years in a rich learning environment at private school that I skipped most of my classes, played cards, partied my face off and still went on to university but I sure would have liked to have kept on learning at the rich level offered at private school instead of dealing with perpetual tedium for 5 years; I “achieved” high grades in high school based on what I had already learned in private school.
What a bunch of elitist breeders commenting today. Makes me glad I don’t have kids. In fact, makes me feel fondness for Smoking Man, and that’s scary.
#67 brainsail on 11.10.13 at 10:14 pm
The end result of a good education is that you learned how to learn and that process never ends.
…….
You don’t need school for that, just a hunger for knowledge, and Google.
The world has changed.
Gladiator do your kids wana to be Dr’s cause it’s a protected industry insuring a healthy cash flow.
Or because they have an un satisfied curiosity on how the body works.
If it’s cash flow, I have made why more than my Dr in the last 10.ten years, than he’s made his entire life, and my Dr needs to go to work every day to get a check.
If it’s curiously encourage them.
But know this
Slave owners never need to get out of bed to get a pay check.
An RESP is useless for a child where the account holder is a parent with a US birthplace.
USA treats a RESP as a ‘foreign trust’, thus negating any tax advantage received in Canada.
Garth asks himself: “Why do I do it?”
Well, Garth, I have seen many posters over the years thanking you for saving their financial a$$. And, as well as giving excellent financial advice in all areas of life, like today’s blog, you have exposed many unethical people who take advantage of the unaware/financial illiterates. Also, and best of all, the humour and wit with which you share your knowledge with us all, and for free too, is entertainingly amusing, unique, and special to your readers who enjoy and learn from you, while at the same time, is like a dagger poking at the cold hearted unethical headed for hell.
To the blog dawgs, I really appreciated your insightful comments today pertaining to the unaware parents with the unaware kids, both of which only become angered when told to look at themselves for their own shortcomings, the inability to think, and thus, learn.
Remember, always, “Freedom First”.
Garth – 3 questions about tax avoidance.
1) can I make an RESP donation for a niece/nephew and get the deduction or does it have to be parent.
2) if I max out my TFSA and continue to max out my RRSP, that would clearly be the best tax avoidance strategy, as well as potentially opting out of any defined contribution pension plan. question is, whats an easy way to say no to a defined contribution plan and be 100% responsible for your own RRSP?
3) whats the difference in following strategy. I’m married, my wife stays home with the kids. However, prior to having kids, I was topping up my RRSP and my spousal RRSP. now, having kids, she withdraws from her spousal RRSP. What’s the benefit from doing that? Because the spousal RRSP is her ‘income’ and I can use that income for splitting, thereby reducing my overall taxes? Wouldn’t it be better if I used all the RRSP room then, when she’s at home, continue to make RRSP deductions and take that payment and hand it off to her for living expenses?
Is maxing your RRSP and your TFSA being smart, assuming that you’ve invested in wisely in a diversified portfolio of ETF’s that pay sweetly?
I have to soon bounce something off you about an allocation for a senior on a fixed income.
Thanks again for everything you do.
(1) There is no deduction. (2) RRSPs are not tax avoidance, but tax deferral. (3) Spousal RRSPs must be in place for 3 years prior to any withdrawal, or it is attributed as income to you. — Garth
#71 Julia on 11.10.13 at 10:28 pm
What a bunch of elitist breeders commenting today. Makes me glad I don’t have kids. In fact, makes me feel fondness for Smoking Man, and that’s scary
…….
Even after feminization and girly men. That is scary :)
‘Elitist breeders’? My kids attended public school in several jurisdictions on several provinces & had 3 years of private school in the UK. By far the best schooling they had was in the UK. Small classes, thorough grounding in the basics, plenty of arts as well. The school was attended by kids whose parents had money & by those whose parents sacrificed a fair bit to ensure their kids LEARNED. In comparison, the local state schools were a joke. Shorter school days, shorter terms…
Both my kids are well past school age. If I had kids today about to start school there’s no way I’d waste their time in public schools the way they’re currently constituted. Not where I live anyway.
Home school is the way I’d go – not because of any faith based reason but simply because what the schools purport to ‘teach’ these days can be covered in an hour or two a day. That leaves plenty of time for other educational opportunities. I spent more time as a parent when the kids were in the primary years trying to get them past parroting what they were ‘taught’. What was the other side of an issue? Did what they learn make sense to them – why or why not?
In retrospect, I wish I’d done more of that.
Experienced the private school. What a nightmare. Back to the public system and very happy with it
DELETED.
(Why is Garth oppressing me?)
As soon as I read the first paragraph I KNEW this was going to be one hot button topic! :)
#11 2CentsCnd:
Great post. You forgot two things: obedience and subordination. We learn those from a very early age, don’t we? Colour in the lines, don’t read ahead, and do exactly as I tell you. Oh, and don’t ask too many questions or I’ll say you have ADD.
#19 save. spend. splurge.
I am convinced that people don’t actually WANT to have kids. Kids are great accessories. So is a Bugatti. I also think people have kids to shut up nosey friends and relatives who keep asking annoying questions.
If people actually wanted their kids they would spend more time with them, but it seems that parents everywhere make excuses to ditch them as often as they can. In theory, kids are great.
I work in daycare so I see this all the time.
a lot of interesting comments from everyone.
what is the biggest form of child abuse in canada? sending your kids to school. the elites (new world order) via government, successfully removed all independent thinking from all and any educational curriculum. the school system is set up to demotivate, dumb-you-down and create future debt slaves to the government and banking system. Today, school’s encourage ass kissing from students and parents–this is the true lesson to be learned in school that can be used throughout your adult life.
I believe, education in oneself is critical. in many cases, the higher the education the higher the net worth. unfortunately, most post secondary students decide to enroll in useless courses (psychology, history, hair-care, etc…)that don’t provide good job opportunities and can’t provide the wages to support a family.
any farmer from the 1850’s would have a higher level of financial knowledge than any MBA student. the elite removed all financial education from the school’s back in the early 1900’s. we cant let the sheeple figure out how much we are ripping them off?
Garth is pushing the government sponsored programs(RESP, etc…), but I wouldn’t touch these things with a 50 foot pole. Garth, are you familiar with the “bail-in” clause that was adopted by our loving government earlier this year? Remember, government is the problem not the solution.
there is no right formula or wrong formula for success ; financial or educational .
You all are the “little monsters” around here.
Why waste your money with University,after hours tutoring or private schools and all that crap? I have never seen the above as requirements for becoming RE agent.
PS: no matter how much money you spent on the education of your kids there is only one thing that need for us, their parents. If you don’t have that thing and if you can not teach your children that thing they will be just nerds, overeducated, overschooled etc etc, yet people like Ford will be mayors, guys like Bill Gates will create Microsoft and guys like that guys like the one who made it all the way to the top of OPG or Ontario Hydro will rule.
So, keep piling money and torture your kids to learn things that will be half obsolete when they become adults….
#56 – Gladiator – Perhaps you think you’re doing your kids a favour by treating them like Spartans, but I suspect you’ll end up burning them out pretty quickly. When they get old enough to realize how hard you’re pushing, they will fight you, and eventually come to despise you. No parent should decide a child’s career path–they should be deciding it for themselves, and not, incidentally, by Grade 2.
I am relieved that my parents supported me, but let me find my own way–to an MA at a prestigious British university, and a great job. Had they pushed me the way you are pushing your kids, I would have left home by the time I was 16. Good luck, kiddoes.
Private School vs public school? In our case, we simply did not want our children to associate with or be influenced by neglected kids. It’s not politically correct to talk about it, but there are certain parts of society that are pretty ugly.
Private school is for the leaders of our society. You know, the ones that are so busy, so self involved with their careers and image that all else is farmed out. To house keepers, gardeners, nanny’s and private school.
Our kids went to public schools (To learn about the mix in society.) , played non-rep hockey ( to learn about playing on a team.) and most importantly, worked at summer jobs and even worked a little part time during the school year. They knew who was going to pay for their university education.
Our RESPS = 0
Our kids self esteem from paying their own way=priceless.
Whew I’m glad you threw in that (second) last line. I almost went for it. Think I’ll abstain and buy a harley…to much chance for “failed to launch” these days lol
Last year when my son was in 10th grade at Moscrop High in Burnaby (BC) they had so-called “financial education” classes, where some woman came and told them that the best way to invest is in mutual funds. I was appalled when he came home and told me this, so I taught him how some questions to ask in the next class. When he asked why mutual funds and not ETFs, she explained that ETFs are a lot riskier than mutual funds!!! That mutual funds assure guaranteed gains over time, while ETFs may fluctuate with the markets!!!
These are the people that teach our children…
“Our school system should be providing us with the emotional and intellectual tools to make clear headed informed decisions about our lives, finances and the world around us”
Bah ha ha ha – good one! You will get JUST enough education to become a monkey with a typewriter, nothing more. The fact that our “education system” is about 100yrs old give or take and has now been burdened with having to teach life skills, coping skills, social skills, etc in addition to education is a joke. Parents need to step up and contribute as much as the teachers are expected to.
But lets see what our dearly departed friend George Carlin has to say: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILQepXUhJ98
Wanna teach your kid something invaluable? Critical Thinking.
Good timing for me. I was just shopping around for an RESP for my first kid. I think I’m going with Primerica’s plan. Have you heard of this? Is it a safe choice?
Self-directed is best. — Garth
I have a job where I interact with all sorts of kids, public schooled, private schooled and home-schooled. The kids in private schools tend to be more disciplined and in general more mature. To me, that isn’t surprising. What IS surprising, at least to me, is how many kids are home-schooled by parents where at least one of them is a school teacher, either private or public. I would be wary about eating at a restaurant where the staff wouldn’t sample their own menu.
SM to Gladiator:
Gladiator do your kids wana to be Dr’s cause it’s a protected industry insuring a healthy cash flow.
SM, you`ll notice the kids don`t want to be anything yet, they`re in Gr2 and JK, so about 4 and 7 yr old.
Some of Gladiator`s comments concern me. The primary objective of sending to private school seems to be to get connected to the future mucky mucks and politicos. When I first started to read it I thought it had to be tongue in cheek, however they seem to believe that this will make their children `successful`. If that`s what success is, I feel sorry for the children.
Whatablog
When our kids were very young (late 90`s) we looked at the pooled plans similar to Primerica. They were far too limited in their investment choices, they were restricted to gov`t bonds and such. I noticed they never tried to predict the future rate of growth, only to emphasize their previous rates. That`s when I started looking at what their holdings were. Their current performance, ie what they were advertising what they were paying out for the kids who were just reaching university age, was based on high-rate bonds from the mid-80`s, when you could get 15% or more. When I looked at the investments they were making for the most recent years, they were only getting bonds in the 2-3% range. I knew I could do better than that on my own.
#15 Blase on 11.10.13 at 7:20 pm
Garth,
Is there a max annual contribution? Can I dump the max in all at once and get 20% matching funds, instead of doing it year by year?
No. — Garth
—————————————————–
Your contribution room for CESG (Canadian Education savings Grant) purposes accumulates, but only $1000 of grant is allowed in any given year; anything above does not get a grant, but is still tax free as long as the total contribution is under $50,000. For example, when your child turns 5 you want to make a contribution, there is $2,500 worth of grant available ($500/year), you want to put $10,000 into the RESP, you still only get $1,000 of grant, and you can’t allocate the remaining contribution for future grants. If you earn less, the grant can rise, but the total available grant is always $7,200, meaning low income contributors only earn the grants faster.
Lol gotta love Bonnie’s typical Canadian mentality. Blame the school system, blame the medical system, blame the government, blame foreigners, blame the Boomers, blah blah blah.
Isn’t that what this blog is all about? Losing the infantile entitlement, cutting the nanny state umbilical cord, enriching your mind, trusting in yourself enough to take responsibility for making rational choices in order to achieve well-deserved life goals?
As in spending an hour or more in traffic to and from work everyday then coming home to a TV dinner and Duck dynasty while the kids do who knows what on their iPads before you yell at them to go to bed does not make it their teachers’ fault how they turn out, no matter how much you discuss it with your parent and teacher friends over a bottle or 3 of cab/merlot at “stich n’ bitch”.
#72 Smoking Man on 11.10.13 at 10:31 pm
“You don’t need school for that, just a hunger for knowledge, and Google.”
“The world has changed. ”
Good point and well taken but you don’t anything about my family of stubborn narcissistic Scots.
#1 SquareNinja
What I said the first time this topic came around. Lazy parenting. We’re spending lots of money, therefore we are good parents. There are a million things you could be doing with the money instead of sending the little monsters to private school, or buying a house in the “right area”, that will be far more beneficial. Mostly, they involve spending time with them, not buying them useless things.
My wife and I have two kids in public primary school. From what we have seen over the past several years, the quality of a public school education has eroded measurably.
The former McGuinty government was very boastful about the amount of money they put into public education, but it seems that most of that money went to teachers’ salaries. School boards are crying for money, as there seems to be little or none for books, equipment, janitorial, etc.
The number of students has definitely declined over the past few years, but this has not been reflected in the number of teachers. In order to keep teacher head count, they are shuffling kids around, such that now the number of split-grade classes has ballooned and surplus teachers are given other assignments.
The number one priority at our kids’ school these days seems to be fund raising or selling products (e.g. Lunch Lady, Scholastic books, etc) for which the school gets a cut. Not a week goes by without at least two promos, and/or fund-raising notices.
They have cut the number of report cards issued in the past year or so. And just this past week we received a letter that there will be only one round of parent-teacher interviews per year from now on. At my kids’ school, grade 4 students are teaching kindergarten students how to read. Grade 4 students are also forced to monitor younger kids at lunch time, taking away valuable time they should be socializing with their own peers and friends.
There is a definite push to get parents to become actively involved in the day-to-day schooling process. Of course parents should be as involved with their kids’ education as much as possible, but recently it has become an expectation, like part of the curriculum. It seems that teachers are slowly off-loading their responsibilities onto parents and the very kids they are supposed to teach. I wonder about all the little recent immigrant kids whose parents can’t speak English well and who likely themselves do not have formal educational experience upon which to draw from when guiding their children.
Schools are supposed to be peanut-free, but I’ve personally seen administrative staff with peanut-laced cookies laying around their desks. They pontificate about zero tolerance for bullying, but once when I reported a bullying incident between my son and another student, they said they could do nothing about it because the incident did not take place on school property. They flatly refused to even investigate.
We are definitely paying more for less. It’s no wonder more and more people are sending their kids to private school. Private school is becoming the base standard, while the quality of a public education is slowly dying.
A friend of mine recently removed his children from private school due to financial reasons. I warned him about some of the challenges he would face at his kids’ new public school. One day he was utterly exasperated with some of the problems he ran into. It was like a culture shock.
We do are best to supplement what our kids learn at school. For example, both of our kids learned how to read long before they were “taught” in school. But most of all we teach them to think for themselves and to not let this sometime oppressive system destroy their spirit. We’ve been fortunate that most of their teachers have been very good (with one glaring exception) on an individual basis. But collectively they are getting lazy. All in all, we see little evidence that the school system is actually putting children first as they constantly claim.
#10 Big Cajun has it right. Did anyone else read his post with an Adam Sandler voice.
Top ten %ers much more engaged in a proper private school. IB program is about engaging kids the way we know they learn. And they are at school with kids that have similar goals. Along with many other advantages.
Public schools used to teach in that manner. Not for more than a dozen years now. UK still does. In ontario they stopped hiring teachers and hired thousands of TAs. You get what you pay for. It will help neuter the union but won’t help kids.
The most important factor in the success of a child at school is the education level of the mom. Second is socioeconomic status. Your neighbourhood might matter. Doesn’t mean there aren’t exceptions.
Most of the brightest and influential in our world have private Ivy League educations. Just a fact. Harvard seems to be #1. A few months ago my son asked about the hooded wonder. Told him Harvard. He looked up others including the pres. It’s stunning.
Fed boss goes from Princeton to Yale. You’d think it was a regatta.
And now for something completely different, a man with… a chip on his shoulder because the government is making him stump up a bigger downpayment for his $2mm home (“I’ve got the flow, but not the cash!”), who can’t quite afford to live in the best school district for his daughter, is bummed about the land transfer tax and the effect of mainland Chinese buyers on home prices, and who might be getting advice from someone named… Buggle?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-10/hong-kong-luxury-property-prices-choked-by-tightening.html
RE: #72 Smoking Man on 11.10.13 at 10:31 pm
You don’t need school for that, just a hunger for knowledge, and Google.
Hopefully the person who treats your inevitable lung cancer went to med school instead of just Googling the radiation and chemotherapy dose levels.
Rhw
Consumers taking on debt is a sure sign of economic recovery -Ben Bernanke
great comments tonite…
my daughter is going on to high school next year , shes an top student, will do fine in any school.(she’ll stay in public)
the only kids of her group switching to private for HS are a couple girls with some problems with learning, the parents want the extra help and attention and can afford it (just barley)
i would suggest that there are VERY few exceptionally bright students in private school, but also there are very few problem students either.
the upside to public is that by HS the brightest ones are filtered out to advanced classes and have little/no academic contact with the weaker/problem kids. (i remember doing integral calculus in gr12 with a room full of smart kids while others were taking regular math or shop classes)
Private schools are too small to offer separate classes to the elite students.
Most high schools in Van have ‘mini-schools’ for the high achievers (30 kids per year – with seperate, advanced material) of which all could run circles around ANY private school class in the city.
when i went to a top univ to take a challenging program (engineering) i didn’t know of any private schoolers in my classes, but my residence was chock full of rich/spoiled/obnoxious kids from the best private schools across the country. in general they were academically WEAK, took lameass BA’s, partied alot, but had really nice cars and paid me well to tutor them.
if you are sure your kid can’t make it in a highly competitive professional field in univ (med/eng/law/etc), by all means send them to private school if you can afford it, to get a leg up on the other ‘average’ kids – if the child can excel there is no need whatsoever.
the only 2 things i learned about from the private school kids at western were trust funds and cocaine.
Cristian, as a Burnaby teacher i can give you the inside scoop. The only financial education that fits within the curriculum is in Planning 10. It’s used as a “filler” course for teachers. By “filler” i mean that they could for example be a low-seniority art teacher who needs a couple of extra blocks to bring their schedule up to full-time status. This teacher may effectively be financially illiterate. Trust me, i’ve seen them in action.
That’s probably why the guest speaker you mentioned to was brought in to teach the finance unit. It’s the same as the sex educator who comes in to tackle the awkward sex ed classes.
I consider myself very well informed about world finance and personal financial planning, but i can assure you that i am in a very small minority within the school.
Many of the teachers who teach the course skim the financial unit because they have such minimal understanding of the topic.
I believe that an entire Grade 12 course should be taught on personal financial planning by qualified teachers, but this idea is usually dismissed by colleagues who think it’s the parents’ responsibility to teach this. I don’t know why such an important topic should be reliant on a child having financially informed parents. It’s great if you do, but you’re SOL if you don’t.
[…] and professors, and I know plenty of teachers, so when I read this on Garth’s post called Little Monsters about how one parent is whining about having to pay $20,000 in private tuition to give their […]
” It seems like kids are coddled and babysat and are passed up in grades even if they haven’t mastered the knowledge content yet, then they go out in the work world and totally can’t cope.”
Yup, except you need to change the last part of that sentence to read…. “then they go out in the work world as lazy, incompetent, entitled adults and network themselves into fairly good positions where their incompetence is ignored while the general public shrugs its shoulders and accepts the inconvenience and shoddy service.”
O Canada.
and smokey when did you become such a pansy bleeding heart?
were you fat as a kid? i thought it was a no-holds-barred, predatory free-for-all out there?
fat people deserve as much derision as any other who has failed to reach their full potential and they are such easy (wide)targets.
the woman slamming Ford is doing a SUPERB job of it, it is her job after all.
the daily gleeful slam fest of the financially inept around here should be a clue, even though many of them are too slow to ever be able follow along. while i never once met an obese person who was too weak minded to drop the doughnut and go for a walk.
“Uni kids don’t usually pay tax. — Garth”
Educational costs have been rising much faster than inflation since the early 90s. Those RESP withdrawals have grown beyond the personal deduction and education credits, and therefore attract tax/CPP.
Parents contributing to RESPs for children born this year will likely have annual withdrawals approx 2.5 times the personal deduction. I would expect to see about $12-15K in taxation over 5 years of education. I suspect that this is still outweighed by the $7,200 in grants (plus interest) that the gov’t provides, even for low inflation. At current very low inflation rates, it looks like TFSA might be better, if you have to choose.
#93 Dr. Bunsen Honeydew on 11.11.13 at 12:23 am
You forgot the most common one: blame the Americans!
Garth Heritage Scholarship does not award scholarships to part time students, must be full time.
The Vancouver school system is a baby sitting service. I don’t expect the school to teach our kids too much. The public school system will be two years behind the Curriculum by the time they graduate.
There are some good teachers and bad one too. With a strong union, you can’t get rid of the bad ones.
As long as you accept the public schooling system for what it is. That is why tons of parents look at Kumon, and other tutoring to services to fill in a gaping hole which the school system left their kids in.
As for people saving, almost all the people who I work with do not put any money in for RRSF , TFSA and other tax shelters, simply they cannot afford it since most of their paycheck is going into housing.
BTW you should talk about inflation. How do they measure inflation.Because housing / gas / energy / fuel, transit. Even Macdonalds has all gone up. But the talking heads are telling us there is no inflation
It’s all good to preach about how private schools are a waste of money, but when you’re speaking to the mass majority of people who have not gone to private school and are wondering what is the magic private school kool-aid?
Coming from someone who doesn’t have kids yet, but am firmly earning in the bracket where I could potentially send them…
Garth, did you send your kids to private school?
Make Room For Daddy…….and Mommie
Helicopter Parents Are Here.
by Judith Hunt
http://millennialleaders.com/Helicopter_Parents.pdf
Why Johnny can’t write, and why employers are mad
“With Gen X and Gen Y, because everything is shorthand and text, the ability to communicate effectively is challenged,” he said. “You see it in the business world, whether with existing employees or job candidates looking for work.”
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101176249
Education is not the reason people send their kids to the top schools, my sister-in-law specifically did it to have her children become friends with Canada’s top elite families.
Hey JimmyAAA and Inglorious, here’s some charts that are on point:
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2013/11/about-our-spending-problem-revisited/
#60 RayofLight
My wife asked what’s the main difference between a Harley and a Goldwing?
Easy …. the type of girls it attracts : )
Garth, I have just opened and funded my first RESP for my kid (3 months old now). But with only $2500 in per year, I can’t diversify into 5 asset classes.
I have invest half in VTI (USA wide) and half in SCHF (Worldwide), do you think that for a 16+ years horizon it’s a smart move?
Since it’s only two ETFs, I guess there is not much rebalancing to do aside from putting the fresh $2500 each year into whichever underperformed?
Thanks!
Education bubble? Just as in real estate, cheap easy money and making it so anyone can qualify (lax mortgage rules with RE / lax grading standards with secondary schooling) or making it so everyone has to partake (apartment condo converts with RE / more jobs, even simpler ones, requiring a degree) has driven up the cost of university beyond belief. Add to that a high demand from foreigners and you got a situation that parallels the real estate mess very closely. Can an education bubble pop?
#46: lots of good advice, I think you’re right on the money.
Having worked now for 3 financial institutions of various sizes (Canadian ones) my observation is that for entry level professional level jobs, where you went to university matters somewhat, especially if you did/did not have coop experience. Where you went to high school doesn’t matter. Most of the middle and upper management made their contacts there or via an MBA program (through having rich parents or through merit or a combination of the two).
From personal experience, the most valuable contacts I made career wise (to begin with) were made in university, and later by not hiding behind a desk.
I think the issue of private schools matters a lot more in the US since the barrier to the top level post secondary institutions is a lot higher for those without financial means.
It probably matters more if you want to be the leader of a certain political parties?
#105 Onthesidelines on 11.11.13 at 2:09 am
” It seems like kids are coddled and babysat and are passed up in grades even if they haven’t mastered the knowledge content yet, then they go out in the work world and totally can’t cope.”
Yup, except you need to change the last part of that sentence to read…. “then they go out in the work world as lazy, incompetent, entitled adults and network themselves into fairly good positions where their incompetence is ignored while the general public shrugs its shoulders and accepts the inconvenience and shoddy service.”
O Canada.
—————————————————
Exactly, not the mention all cheaters in school or those who pay someone else to do their assignments.
My recommendation for gifted children: don’t go to school at all, just gonna spoil their talents.
My kid was in private kindergarden. Before Christmas they were counting 1-100.
The same kid switched to public a year after in grade one. In febuary the class was still working on number to 1-50.
The academic level is at least a year behind in math, french (i’m in Quebec). English is worst… one hour a week public VS half the day where the class are given in english .
But even with that and with the fact that I could afford the private school, I’m still sending my kids to public. I figured both system are crap compare to what an involved parent can do at home with their kid anyway (my kid could count to 100 and knew all his letters before he turned 3 and was reading before he entered kindergarden).
So instead of spending more than 150k$ over 12 years for private school, I’m building him a portfolio. He’ll get 25k$ at the start of his university. Of course he’ll spend it all on beer and eventually learn that life’s a bitch when you wasted all your cash on silly things. When he’s grown wiser he’s get the rest of the cash.
Thanks for all replies to my comments. Really appreciate and appreciate Garth’s letting us post offtopics.
On pushing the kids too hard: We repay their efforts by reading together, by playing and discussing about many topics, we watch and read cool encyclopedias (don’t ask me how much we spend on them), I recently bought a 400$ microscope etc. Plus, the kid spends about 2 seconds on each single-digit addition exercise, which is 200 seconds per day, and loves it very much when I express my amazement at how fast she does it. It will not be like that all the time – just now establishing the basis for her numerical literacy. Besides, we are not going the Tiger Mom way, which is too harsh (nevertheless, you should see the list of employees in our company’s quant-related departments – more than 80% Asian). Also, kids in European schools have it much tougher – I know from personal experience when I tutored in a Canadian public school fractions in grade 4, while my cousin’s kids in grade 5 in a East-European country were doing 2^n * 2^m exercises. It’s like night and day!
On connections to schmucks: it’s the reality. Regardless of how much we wail here about the bastards who have it all just because of who they know and not what they know, they will still have it all and enjoy it, while we take the bus to work. If my kids will learn how to manipulate these connections – they will only gain from this, and that’s all I need.
On deciding about kids’ future: yes, it would be cool for the to become doctors. We discussed about jobs with the old one and explained why becoming a doctor is good; however, if she decides to go into a different field – so be it. For now, we develop their general skills and abilities. Will will only complain if they decide to have careers in fields that pay minimum wage.
@73 WhiteKat:
In a similar vein, should I simply avoid using TFSAs for all the possible tax headaches?
http://www.ctf.ca/CTFWEB/EN/Newsletters/Canadian_Tax_Focus/2013/1/130102.aspx
Now that we are talking about kids and education it is interesting to se how some beliefs that make no common sense is in trenched in today’s society, but unfortunately networking and who do you know was always a norm. Recently I red that Google is applying for patent for “algo.” that determins who your friend are, how sucsesful and productive they are and based on that you might get a chance to be hired, network first brains second. if you are working stiff as I am YOU ARE DOOMED…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnologyandtelecoms/digital-media/10150353/A-glimpse-into-the-world-of-Google.html
Now back to my kids, being an immigrant I can se common delusions in with in my group of friends, I was a black sheep from very moment when I told them that there is no need for my daughter to learn my or my wife language, I DONT se how that will give any edge over English only speaking kid. Maybe that in her grown years she can sucsesfuly target very specific demografic, but by the time when she is old enough that won’t matter any more because of Globalization. She would be better of speaking Mandarin or Hindu. 2.5 billion people speak those 2 languages. Good thing is that she is old and bright enough to se our struggles as a family and she is good at adopting to situations, and in a school they seems to be more concerned how good grade 6 will score on test, than why 1/2 of the class have no social skills…
If you need good baby sitter I know one.
Any idea why XRE is falling? Is it good time to enter? No comments like ‘who wants to buy low?’ Please!!! :):):)
With regard to private school…I do pay $17000/yr for my little one for private school. But it is worth a lot than letting him play with rowdies at daycare!
In my opinion, private school works best best up to grade 1.
#36 Smoking Man on 11.10.13 at 8:32 pm
Nasty Pic of the Fat kid.
Rosie Dimanno a gifted writer at the Toronto Star, her only job ever, since 1975, I am sure her photo in her column is dated.
———————————————————-
Hey Smoky maybe you didn’t realize this but from what I understand Rosie is fat too. (She wrote about it in a column about a year ago).
So there you go, she outed herself as a chubba and now she can go after Ford.
Pot, kettle, black thing.
#125 NoName on 11.11.13 at 10:10 am
She would be better of speaking Mandarin or Hindu. 2.5 billion people speak those 2 languages.
955 million people speak Mandarin while 311 million people speak Hindi. Part of Hindi languages family however, includes approximately 100 million speakers of other Hindi languages. That equates to 1.266 billion total. Where did the 2.5 billion come from? Better practice your math skills.
#115 Ralph Cramdown,
nice find!
#125 No Name
Yes, it would have been nice if you could have taught your child Mandarin or Hindu, but that obviously isn’t your mother tongue. However, you should have given your child the gift of a second language ( no matter how many people speak it) for the simple reason that it develops the brain. (Just Google ‘second language brain development’ if you want more info). Yes, it does take a lot of effort. Unfortunately, you missed the boat on that one, as the best time to teach a second language is by age ten. And, if you are an immigrant yourself who came as an adult, then you probably “gifted” your child with your English pronunciation.
So what’s wrong with education? It works for some and not for others. If you don’t like being educated and learning via traditional methodologies then learn by mentoring or by absorption. Everyone learns at their own speed and I am sure that the first cavemen tried and tried to create fire out of necessity and finally after many attempts discovered friction creates heat therefore you can created a spark to initiate fire. They learned and taught their children how to do the same. I have read about (The schooled) here and how some conventional teachers may have messed up some bloggers. I can honestly say that some of the teachers I had back in the day were themselves messed up. Not all of the schooled became mindless drones. If your natural proclivity was to be led then you were led no matter what your level of education was. If you were born to lead then that was your mantra. My own education back in the 60’s was required to get where you needed to be. I lived in the United States when I was at the age of enrolment. After University I joined the US air force to continue my education. I wanted to be on top of the system and not at the bottom. That was the way it was. University degree = wealth and power. Some dropouts where extremely lucky and did just as well. This however was not the norm up to the last century. With the advent of technology now you can somewhat self educate yourself via the Internet or online training. In the old days you could do this as well by going to a library, but it was much more laborious. I paid for my children’s education via private schooling and university. One doctor, two P Eng’s and one community collage graduate. One of my children has started their own company with one other dabbling in a small startup corporation as I speak. One works for my company and will probably take over when I decide to retire. They all have done quite well and I didn’t mind paying for any of it to help them get an edge. I agree with one blogger here saying would you want your doctor to learn from the Goggle School of Medicine? Absolutely not, I want my doctor to be the most educated person I see when I require their attention. The point is it worked for my children and myself. The traditional system may not be for everyone and no matter what you do in life the education process never stops. It’s not how you get there that matters but that you do arrive at the end of your journey.
We need to stop blaming the system for creating kids that can’t cope. No amount of schooling can replace proper parenting.
I know people who are in their late 20s, still living at home and still working on their multitude of degrees/diplomas. These people have no real world experience. They do not know what it’s like to work for a living or pay their own bills. Many of them have staggering student loans and personal debt and believe that the world owes them a high paying job simply because they went to school.
Work and hardship builds character. Parents who believe that letting their kids go through secondary school and university without having to work and learn to appreciate money are doing a disservice to their children. Coddling and sheltering kids from reality is not helping them. It’s why we have so many adults who cannot cope today.
Haven’t read the article yet but great pic! I have a Chinese Shar Pei dog too.
When does the government give the 20%? When you contribute? Or after you’ve submitted your income taxes, which can be up to 15 months later?
Each calendar year upon your contribution, into your account. — Garth
All these talks about children and their education coming from “musty basement dwellers” must make the detractors of this blog think that maybe their jobs (RE agent) is really in danger if the life can go on without buying properties.
The only other reasonable explanation is that all the above who talked about their children’s education are in fact RE agents!
#36 Smoking Man
Now if she used the N word on a black dude, The F word on a Homosexual she would be Tared and feathered in less than one sleep./
You have a point. It’s ok to ridicule Christians too. However, if you ridicule the sons of Achmed, you’re looking for trouble in more ways than one, dare I even say it.
This sort of selective political correctness is harming our country because it’s dishonest. If we’re honest, we will admit that our admittance of immigrants from violent cultures is not in the national interest. That’s what I like about the Aussies, they are right up front about it.
In Canada, there are certain conversations that, sorry, are just not acceptable.
Our unionized public school system, with its amen choir consisting of the liberal media, provincial depts of education and liberal education depts in the universities, is government funded, politically corrrect and impossible to change.
Here’s a couple examples. The public system tells gullible young children that the universe was created by a Big Bang, right out of nothing. Then the same public system tells the children in science class that energy can neither be created or destroyed. Hmmm …
The public system tells gullible young children that we evolved from slugs crawling out of the water into various amphibians, then birds, then small animals, then large animals then man etc. Oops, it is impossible for different speciess to mate and produce offspring capable of producing young. Hmmm …
And then the fossil record is almost completely missing. There should be millions of fossil records of the in-between animals.
How can we raise critical thinkers if we aren’t honest enough to discuss the alternatives to the theories around evolution and creationism?
What about abortion? Does the public school cabal ever discuss why only North Korea, China and Canada allow abortion right up until birth? And then we prove how hypocritical we are as a society when we make a big fuss about someone killing a newborn baby
And that’s why some parents put their children in private schools. Just so that their children can have these honest discussions. That’s how you make a critial thinker and critical thinkers are sorely needed in our complex world.
Imagine that. ‘Creationism’ and ‘critical thinking’ in the same email. — Garth
#136 Sinful Man on 11.11.13 at 12:08 pm
Every holly book in existence is utter BS written by men to control men.
Now I am Not chirping people who need the church and fellow ship of other like minded people, life is complicated and not every one lives with the clarity, superior knowledge, like me.
They needed all the power to them. I need my wine.
In fact I will be attending church next Sunday
First time in 30 years. Helping a loved one over come demons. Not my idea but will play along.
Just wish I could buy invisible wireless ear buds, so that I could connect to Floyd.
Having one’s home plumbed entirely with BEER is a good way to enjoy life! 7:08 clip.
#136 Sinful Man
And that’s why some parents put their children in private schools. Just so that their children can have these honest discussions. That’s how you make a critial thinker and critical thinkers are sorely needed in our complex world.
********
Your missing links in public education are best taught at home.
To pay someone to teach your kids is just being a lazy and neglectful parent.
RE: #126 Scalgary on 11.11.13 at 10:22 am
Any idea why XRE is falling? Is it good time to enter?
It’s probably falling because the US Fed taper talk is back.
Is it a good time to enter? Hard to say. The minutes of the last Fed meeting will be out later this month (20th?). Expect more volatility leading up to that.
Oh O, I made a bo bo
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/rob-ford-billboard/article15368327/
#36 Smoking Man
Hey whatever happen to “can’t offend what you can’t bend”?
You would let Rob Ford, an admitted drug user and obvious alcoholic run and manage your company?
You trust him with your money right?
You trust him with your kids future?
You sure like to make people feel dumb and lazy on this board, calling them tax slaves etc….
You sure seem all bent out of shape… (snicker…)
Sorry for being off topic here
This could b happening with CND mortgages as well. We do not have high unemployment but high personal debt
Mystery Behind Spanish Banks’ Extend-And-Pretend “Bad Debt Miracle” Revealed
http://t.co/qR69G3xk4v
Spanish lenders had been making their loan books look healthier than they really were by refinancing big numbers of loans to struggling homeowners and businesses.
The lower interest rates and easier terms of refinancing helped hundreds of thousands of Spaniards like Juan Carlos Díaz, who stopped making mortgage payments more than a year ago, remain in their homes and keep their businesses afloat longer than otherwise would have been possible. It has also helped banks bury a growing risk in their credit portfolios and avoid recognizing losses on debts they are unlikely to recover.
The best education I had was working with my grand-father when I was 10 years old. 2nd place is the free information on this blog.
#132 20Something: “Work and hardship builds character. Parents who believe that letting their kids go through secondary school and university without having to work and learn to appreciate money are doing a disservice to their children. Coddling and sheltering kids from reality is not helping them. It’s why we have so many adults who cannot cope today.”
*********************
Exactly. Best advice ever.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/top-business-stories/canadas-housing-market-teeters-precariously-financial-times-warns/article15372726/
#134 Mixed Bag: “When does the government give the 20%?”
Each calendar year upon your contribution, into your account. — Garth”
******************
“Into your account.” LOL I know of one student who was handed a lump sum from the government for education, and what did he do with this cash? Why, he went on vacation! I’m sure there were many….
#142 TnT on 11.11.13 at 12:55 pm
#36 Smoking Man
Hey whatever happen to “can’t offend what you can’t bend”?
You would let Rob Ford, an admitted drug user and obvious alcoholic run and manage your company?
……………………………………………………
Ford anytime. What someone does in there off time who cares. Hookers, Crack, Don’t care..
……………………….
Question for you
Put this to you, would you let Dalton (billions lost) run your company.
Now TNT hopefully you click on my link by now.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/rob-ford-billboard/article15368327/
as you laugh and snicker at the typo. Ha ha ha.
Rosey at the star laughing so hard she spills her coffee.
The genus of that Faux Typo.
Fords enemies will be posting that all over MSM
but the message will resonate deep in the sub consciousnesses of the voters in a year from now.
Never bet against a smoking man.
Just an observer
Why do you read a blog that makes you bitter.
1 start your own blog
2 accept your losses don’t dwell on them.
3 topics in this blog should be taught in our education system like this blog post.
Interesting observations from DS News, a magazine for the US mortgage default servicing industry.
1. – Low Inventories Conceal Hidden Vacancies, Threat Looms Nonetheless
With inventory levels retracting even further — falling 3.3 percent year-over-year in the third quarter, according to Realtor.com — it may seem counterintuitive that vacancies would be high. However, according to the Census Bureau, about 53.5 percent of vacant homes are currently being held off the market.
“Household formation was alarmingly slow,” said Trulia’s chief economist, Jed Kolko …..
“Without more new households, vacant homes will fill up slowly.” Vacancies also directly impact new construction, according to Kolko.
http://www.dsnews.com/articles/index/low-inventories-conceal-hidden-vacancies-but-threat-looms-nonetheless-2013-11-06
2. – Analysts Say Government Should Continue ‘Significant’ Role in Housing
The government currently backs about 90 percent of all new mortgages, and according to Zillow the last time the government held a 35 percent share of new originations was in 2006 “at the height of the housing bubble.”
http://www.dsnews.com/articles/index/analysts-say-government-should-continue-significant-role-in-housing-market-2013-11-08
#148 Smoking Man
Question for you
Put this to you, would you let Dalton (billions lost) run your company.
**************
Nope… he’s a reptilian kitten eater
And
Ford will screw Toronto again by entering the race and split the vote with another conservative (Stintz?) and allow another Miller type as Mayor.
#149 Smoking Man on 11.11.13 at 1:40 pm
Now TNT hopefully you click on my link by now.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/rob-ford-billboard/article15368327/
That was well played by Ford’s supporters.
That typeo will make sure many of his adversaries will post and repost, email or whatever the ad. Basically all those who are trying to put down the ad by attacking the grammar are actually helping Ford to send his message.
Garth I completely agree with you on the education front; no sense paying for private primary education when public schools are perfectly adequate.
And in case Bonnie isn’t aware, the curriculum in Ontario has changed, and they are teaching children how to be astute financially among other things.
It’s also interesting that public school teachers are for the most part more qualified than private school teachers (they need the credentials whereas private schools are more flexible). Public school teachers also earn more.
Knowing all this and putting it into perspective, paying for a private public education only makes sense if your kids get to schmooze with kids from the rich and famous…
TAX ON RESP WITHDRAWALS
Mediabuff at 107…
“Uni kids don’t usually pay tax. — Garth”
Educational costs have been rising much faster than inflation since the early 90s. Those RESP withdrawals have grown beyond the personal deduction and education credits, and therefore attract tax/CPP.
*******************************************
Tuition is tax deductible.
I calculated I can take out about $21,277 per year (less any taxable income my kid earns) with zero tax.
Personal deduction 11,038
Plus Tuition which is tax deductible = $6519
Plus $400 per month education credit at eight months = $3200
Plus $65 per month for books = $520
****
First year will be lower due to 4 months of tuition and credits rather than eight.
Contributing to RESP if you can do it and expect a kid to take post secondary education is a no-brainer. Just do it. Then grow the money.
If some tax is paid in the end it may be because the money grew so much. There are far worse problems to have.
#128 Holy Crap Wheres The Tylenol
Math is worong, but I was always under impression that Hindi and English are official languages in India. Lower levels of gov. Can use otbut if you Hindi in India you can always ask for direction chance is that 1 in 4 people will understand you.
We placed our daughter in a publicly funded, fine arts school grade 2-7. Better raised kids due to the parents having a vested interest way beyond, supplied daycare. Kids came from all over (intentional loose catchment) with some parents driving 45 minutes to get the kids to school.
The arts teach freedom of expression and most importantly instil, confidence in self.
Friends with children in French immersion reported similar experiences.
As with any education system, it’s still the parents role to de program the child and help form the young minds, into critical thinkers.
Question everything.
#152 TnT on 11.11.13 at 1:58 pm
#148 Smoking Man
Question for you
Put this to you, would you let Dalton (billions lost) run your company.
**************
Nope… he’s a reptilian kitten eater
And
Ford will screw Toronto again by entering the race and split the vote with another conservative (Stintz?) and allow another Miller type as Mayor.
……………………….
At leased we agree on something (Dolt)
The pinko’s will split the vote, the temptation, lust for the keys to the vault, and our loot will overwhelm them.
Crawl over each other, not to mention Rob might step down and Doug run.
Either way, more years of entertainment form the emasculate at the STAR
Education is like sex. Why pay for it when you can get it for free!
Rob Ford, 2014!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBqDusjuY3Y
#153 recharts
The subconscious take-away from this will be there’s no “I” in his version of responsibility OR Rod Ford and Ford Nation are buffoons.
@gladiator #56,
Your kids would be better spending their early years in private schools. Through the 9th grade, I developed a solid knowledge of the fundamentals, reading, writing, math and grammar. When I transferred to public high school, I was in the top 5 students in all my advanced classes.
It sounds to me, however that you’re already concentrating on the fundamentals with your extra curricular instruction.
But I caution you in your belief that paying for private schooling will imbue your children with membership in some sort of old-boy’s network that will open doors for them later in life. It hasn’t. Not for me, either of my two siblings, my father, or two out of my three uncles. The third DID benefit from alumni connections, but he made those in public school. Sure, each of us might recognize the name of someone we went to school with if it’s mentioned in the media, but by far, the strongest threads in my network are the connections I’ve made professionally. The only private school connections who ever contacted me as an adult were a former student pushing a settlement for sexual abuse claims made against the school (I was not affected, thank God), and another who tried to interest me in an investment scheme that reeked of ponzi. I declined, and have not heard from him since.
By the time I left private school after the 9th grade, I’d had enough. I had rubbed shoulders with the children of the wealthy and powerful and found most of them to be shallow and vapid. My mother, who was convinced that private schools were our path to success neglected saving, and used credit to push us to keep up appearances. I felt so bad, I started working part time jobs at 13 to help pay the bills at home, and buy the clothes and accessories I needed to help me fit in socially, because I paid my own way, while my peers’ parents paid for theirs.
Of course I spent everything I earned and didn’t save, and spent on credit through my teens and twenties, before I learned to save and invest.
Anyway, based on my own personal experiences I’ll be reluctant to send my child to private school, but you kids are your kids, and what you choose to do in terms of their education is your choice. Just do yourselves a favour: make sure your kids live up to THEIR OWN dreams, and not expect them to live up to yours. Maybe they’ll share your ambition, but they probably won’t. Let them succeed on their own terms, or else they’ll always feel like failures.
Having experienced both public and private at the high school level.
I didnt find the private school material to be any more advanced or difficult than public. It was essentially the same , but you wore a uniform and got accosted by the VP off school property for having your tie off.
I have friends who are currently spending the money to send their little ones to private school. These kids are really young and I just dont see any value in it. The environment that the family fosters will have a greater impact at the end of the day by comparison. The private school isnt giving these kids any advantages that I can see, nor have experienced myself.
Be engaged with your kids. Teach them about money/debt/investing(because they wont learn this anywhere else) and send them to public school. They will turn out just fine.
Keeping in touch with old friends from both schools…the “successful” to “failure” ratio are pretty darn close.
#46 LS in Arbutus on 11.10.13 at 8:58 pm
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I saw the same thing at a top Ontario university, the private-school boys from T.O. had a difficult time competing with students from the public system.
That baby has been fed too much. It is setting it up for an overweight adolescence.
Anyways, here is an interesting article from the Tyee.ca on owning and renting.
http://thetyee.ca/Life/2013/11/11/Home-Ownership-Back-Again/?utm_source=mondayheadlines&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=111113
There are no fewer than 3 private schools in my neck of the woods, while it would be very convenient to send our 2 girls there, I can not justify the $. Public education was fine for me, I managed to get a masters. I have a buddy with 4 kids, all of which will go to private, that is about $50k/year….and we are not talking Harvard prep schools, this is grade school and kindergarten….oh the humanity! His brother is even sending his kid to one of the most expensive private schools in Calgary, despite them living in Edmonton….Crazy, but if you make several hundred k /year you simply buy what you think is the best education for your kids.
Hey Garth, our 6 and 3 year have about 33k in their resps, self-directed, after being horn-swoggled by the nltb into buying sh!t mutual funds…they actually tried to tell me that if it was invested in stock we wouldn’t qualify for the gov’t grants…unbelievable. Anyways i’m thinking of keeping the majority of the $ in quality dividend payers like ZDV, CPG, and maybe an int’l etf. I sold my S&P etf after a fast rise as I think a market correction is coming…THOUGHTS?
So are you, there is no “d” in Rob
But there is a lot of Shallow in U as in ‘The shallows:…”
Point proved
#160 TnT on 11.11.13 at 3:32 pm
#153 recharts
The subconscious take-away from this will be there’s no “I” in his version of responsibility OR Rod Ford and Ford Nation are buffoons.
Attacking someone on typos is below high school level.
You probably wanted to say unconscious in your case
The big problem with Garth’s favorite investment strategies, buying a house and starting a family is that it really does require a six figure income as soon as you get out of any kind of school. Most employers are not in the business of paying their workers enough to live in Canada. So if the market price of skilled or unskilled labor is correct then the price of big ticket items is absolutely out of line and over due for a serious correction especially real estate. The Canadian economy is like a christmas tree. It has no roots and when it doesn’t get liquidity it dries up and dies. But before that happens it tends to look good for a while.
Four and low five figure incomes will not support an economy or life styles that requires six figure incomes for everybody in the work force.
Either the costs of real estate , education and vehicals has to be cut or incomes have got to rise.
Please spare me the “private schools are better” drivel. I am the product of my own utilization of the public school system which we all pay into. I am an unqualified success, with no complaints, no regrets, no vices and no distorted view of reality.
You get out of life what you put into it. And you get out of school what you put into it.
Public education is the greatest system ever devised. It’s too bad that it is administered by greedy people, who are bought out by the large corporations who need a supply of idiots and their parents who believe that schooling is only intended to help provide you with a good job.
This is NOT the main purpose of public education. If you had paid attention in your history classes, whether they were public or private, you would know this. It seems that many of you have paid twice or more for private schooling only to NOT know anything beyond worshiping at the altar of Mammon. Pity.
Again, so many myopic people on this blog today.
I am going to bounce the next person that thinks public education is free. No amount of private schooling can overcome this type of sheer stupidity. You know who you are.
CHART OF THE DAY: In Canada, The Insane Pace Of Condominium Construction Has Accelerated…
“The BoC didn’t update and publish this chart in its September Monetary Policy Report, but it wasn’t because of any newfound restraint on the part of developers.
Business in Canada reproduced the chart (with slight alterations) and the results are disturbing: the amount of condominiums under construction, adjusted for population growth, has since drifted even further away from the historical average:”
https://businessincanada.com/2013/11/11/canada-condo-construction-overbuilding-developers-housing-crash-bubble/
“misconduct” list
What “education ” do they have a school course for FRAUD
http://www.sec.gov/spotlight/enf-actions-fc.shtml
All the evidence in favour of private schools is anecdotal at best. If I paid $20,000 per year for my kids to go to grade school I would probably have the same bias. There will be obvious perks but at the end of the day your kid can have the perfect life and still end up a dirty skank like me. boo hoo!!!
other kids
ActionAid has uncovered a 2013 Deloitte document called “Investing in Africa through Mauritius”[i] which details how tax can be avoided in African countries by structuring business through Mauritius.
The strategy, which is entirely legal, could potentially be used to deprive African countries of vitally needed tax revenue.
As part of the presentation the document illustrates how tax can be avoided by giving the example of Mozambique. It shows how withholding tax can potentially be reduced by 60 per cent and capital gains tax by 100 per cent for companies that operate in Mozambique.
Mozambique is one of the poorest countries on the planet, where over 50 per cent of people live below the poverty line and average life expectancy is only 49.
http://www.actionaid.org/news/deloitte-advised-big-business-how-avoid-tax-some-poorest-countries-africa
Shawn said: “Tuition is tax deductible….Personal deduction 11,038”
In Ontario, the effective personal deduction is $8K once you include prov. IT (9.5K) and CPP (4K).
‘Tuition’ is only partly deductible, typically works out to about 1/2 of the costs a uni charges, less in professional and selective programs with high activity or trip fees. Education amount has octupled from $50 to $400, which helps.
On a $6K tuition in Ontario, you get about $14,200 in deductions total. RESP withdrawals can easily be about $22K, so you’re looking at the student paying about $2000 in taxes to net $20K. Over 4 years, the student will pay about $8K in taxes, which is 10% more than the CESG amount in an RESP, but not the interest earned on it.
Compare that to a TFSA: no tax. And if the student doesn’t go to on to post-secondary, still no tax. It seems to me that RESPs should be funded only after TFSAs, since the latter is so much more flexible.
If you have enough money to fund both, of course you should fund both. And I do. But I’m interested in exploring the trade-offs.
I am lucky that my children are so ordinary that they don’t require private school. I apparently don’t care about them much either as they go to a school filled with new Immigrants, refugees and low income students.
Right now, my daughter is doing a group social studies project on Afganistan. Too bad she is stuck with the immigrant kid from Afganistan who has been in Canada less than a year and has first hand knowledge at what it was trying to go to school as a girl. My kid’s other new friend has a dad who delivers pizza’s for a living. Sure, her family is newly arrived from Syria and her Dad has a masters in engineering, but still, five of them live in a two bedroom appartment!
If I loved my daughter more, I would encourage friendships with wealthy children who go on exotic holidays each year and gifted cars when they turn sixteen, rather than kids from families that have risked much to come to Canada for a better life for their kids. Clearly the work ethic my children would learn in private school would be far superior to what they are exposed to now.
If you don’t like your kids friends, have a good hard look at your kid. Don’t like their work ethic, then look in the mirror. Water seeks its own level.
Garth,
One thing you have not addressed is the value of social connections. You are right that in most cases it is foolish to not save for retirement and instead use that money for private school. That said, You have not addressed the value of social connections.
Private school means a guaranteed invite to a certain social scene. You write that it matters not where a kid went to grade 4 so long as they do well at a good university. That is probably true in many cases but I personally have seen social connections trump that.
Now, don’t read any anger into this, I’m not ‘pissed’ at you. I sincerely look forward to you thoughts on this because it is a phenomenon that really makes me angry: the stupid kids of rich folks get ahead because they went to the right private high school!
I went to private school in Montreal but I had no idea of the concept of ‘old boys club’.
Some of my friends were rich kids who I was sure would end up in jail because of their stunts.
They are now lawyers, VPs or CEOs of big corporations. I have to assume that it’s because of their family connections. I still can’t imagine some of these guys qualifying for anything more than dog catchers.
In university, I had a classmate that would get a job offer for EVERY single job he applied for. I found out eventually that he was the son of the CEO of a MAJOR Canadian corporation.
Back then I had no idea you get ahead this way. I thought that it’s what you know, not WHO you know.
Of course, if you send your kids to a good private school, and they get good grades putting them in the top of class, they can write their own ticket, no matter their family connections. But don’t bother spending the money if they’re only average.
This is really bad,
Best thing you can to for your kids is go to rehab
AA meetings, be surprised at the elites you meet and bond with their, set me straight, and launched me from bottom to the top.
Rember my near death, coke filled after noon.
That’s all I’m going to say about this.
Garth,
quick question on the CESG grant: Is that taxable on withdrawal or is only the interest/dividend growth on that taxable.
Thanks
The growth (on both the principal and the grant) is taxable. — Garth
#175 Totalchaos on 11.11.13 at 5:50 pm
“If you don’t like your kids friends, have a good hard look at your kid. Don’t like their work ethic, then look in the mirror. Water seeks its own level.”
Saying this as a parent of two young children, I couldn’t agree with your more.
@175Totalchaos -thank you for your post. Wonderfully said. I have no worries for the future of your children.
In my experience, private schools seem to graduate more coke heads and closet alcoholics than public schools. Gotta spend those trust fund $ somehow.
I had great experiences in public high school, lots of resources for those willing to access them. Electronic lab, machine shop, auto shop, computer access…
#166 recharts
Autocorrect does not exist on a billboard
Subconscious as noted by SM
Shallow is obvious in your rebuttal
Your still angry for being schooled by me, let it go :)
It’s always hard to separate a parent’s ego needs from their desire to do their best for their children. I would never have gone to university if my mother hadn’t driven me to do it. Most parents of boomers had almost no idea what university was about but they were sure it would make one respectable and reflect well on them: “My son, the doctor”. Thus they begat a generation that believed it was born on third base and a next generation who had to go to university so as to not bring shame on the family. Now we have a third generation who have been bred to believe that clean nails and a degree are essential to life happiness. For years now the numbers of graduates have outpaced the jobs they could have usefully occupied so they wind up in the civil service and quangos where they can leverage the power of government to harass the crap out of the rest of us in the name of ideals such as safety, the environment and human rights. Can we please have a generation of plumbers?
DELETED
RESP withdrawals and income tax
Mediabuff replied to me at 174
In Ontario, the effective personal deduction is $8K once you include prov. IT (9.5K) and CPP (4K).
‘Tuition’ is only partly deductible, typically works out to about 1/2 of the costs a uni charges, less in professional and selective programs with high activity or trip fees.
*****************************************
You sound like you know what you are talking about….
I thought tuition as such was fully deductible by the kid. Room and Board and incidental living costs are not deductible but as you said the education credit helps there.
I have no idea what you mean by CPP. Canada Pension Plan? or is that some Ontario thing?
It is true that some tax may be paid on RESP although if a kid is at university for four or more years it seems unlikely. But maybe yes, tax paid if the kid has great summer jobs especially co-op terms.
I will try to limit the withdrawal each year to keep tax to zero.
Maybe TFSA would be better but as Garth says a one-time 20% head-start takes a while to overcome. In fact, I would say that 20% more money growing would fully pay the extra tax up to a 20% tax rate so given that there might not be any tax the RESP sounds better. In Alberta the marginal tax rate on lower incomes starts at 25%.
RESP is also better because the money is ear-marked for education. TFSA is more flexible – which the kid might NOT appreciate (i.e. when it gets used to cover some other cost)
H shed crocodile tears today. When Canadian farm boys were being brought back from Afghan at the rate of two per month did he a) immediately buy the best armoured gear and trucks around for them? (Who’d have said no.)
Or b) Dedicate part of Hwy 401 as Hwy of Heros with weepy ceremonies and platitudes.
Totally mind control.
I just replied to your stupid conclusion.
So far I have ignored you quite well and as far as I remember I was replying to Smoking ma and you intervened, so who is the one who is still trying to settle the score.
You can not school me with your 6 months of RE education.
Remember, we are as valuable as the skills and the knowledge that we use to make a living. What could be the value of 6 months of education?
For all the vets out there on this Nov 11,
was waiting for some one else to do it,
to pre occupied I guess.
thanks a million
#1 SquareNinja on 11.10.13 at 5:52 pm
Alice’s rant is so ridiculous!
Canada’s public primary and secondary education system is pretty good when compared with any other country in the world.
……………………
Curious – can you provide a link to back up your assertion.
recharts 4
Tnt 1
Hi Garth,
been following your blog on and off for about a year now. Went to your seminar as well last year.
Just wondering what your thoughts are on the whole “manahattanization” of Toronto? If property values have risen to high in NY, isn’t it possible here as well?
No. — Garth
explain?
Thanks Garth for the primer on resp bureaucracy and to everybody else on resp tips and supplementing the public school system. To the Alice guy who couldn’t even get my name right you are a condescending fool, to the people who refer to children as special little ridiculous helicopter packages, I agree that helicopter parenting is a problem in our society but your attitude is shortsighted. We all need to take a solution oriented approach to this as I assume, childless or not, we all hope that when we are old and crickety that the generations we passed the torch to will have some kind of smarts and coping skills and be able to keep things together. Also i know persinally lots of people in the education sector who agree off the record that Garth’s assessment of the Canadian public school system as perfectly good is a bit overoptimistic. The gaps in what kids are taught today is real and a lot of the gaps are related to math, being able to data-crunch, and money.
I am about to open RESP for 3 month old little girl.
I am reluctant to buy any GICs or mutual funds bank guy recommended. However, he did mention that $1200 BC provincial govt. grant won’t be available for me if the account is not open and managed at the bank branch.
Does anyone know more about this?
Thanks in advance!
[…] the weekend Garth Turner railed about a parent he met who was sending his child to a private school, even though he could not afford it. I couldn’t really tell whether this child was smart or […]