The masses

FREE BEER

Well, first the news. [email protected] just sent this out to her realtor clients:

Long term Bond yields went up 15 bpts last week therefore decreasing spreads. Another 5 year rate increase by another 10 bpts (as of tomorrow) this week.  Therefore,  any clients you are currently working with who may want to take advantage of the lower rate before the increase then please send me first and last name and I will do a rate hold for them, thanks kindly.

Say, didn’t she send out a similar note last week? Damn that bond market. It has a way of messing up real estate for the poor, indebted hordes who truly think they’re entitled to Brazilian hardwood floors and caesar stone counters (granite is soooo 2012). Now that five-year rates are sitting around 3.8% at the banks – up a full point (or 35%) since the Spring – a house is slipping further from reach unless, of course, prices fall. Which they will, and are in many markets.

More than any other single reason, real estate’s in trouble because of debt. It’s been the opiate of the masses for the past four years. House prices got high because rates got low. The toll this has exacted on the middle class cannot be overstated. Recently I told you about the BMO survey showing 51% of people can’t lay their hands on $10,000. Another bank reports a third of people are retiring with unpaid mortgages – that’s never happened before. And now we hear 42% of us live paycheque-to-paycheque.

The Canadian Payroll Association study is a national disgrace. Apparently 40% spend every cent they earn. Another 45% spend 95% of their pay. That means fewer than one in 20 people saves at least 5% of his or her income. More importantly, it means a decade or two down the road we’re staring at one mother of a retirement crisis, as folks simply run out of money.

Real estate did this. With seven in ten people homeowners, you can easily see where the money is going – into record bank profits, thanks to all those payments on $1.25 trillion in mortgage debt. If house values decline in any meaningful way, after so many people have gambled so much on a single asset, we’re all kinda screwed.

More proof: that payroll survey also found about half of Canadians 50 or older have less than a quarter of the money saved they’ll need for retirement. We also know home ownership is the highest in this group – 78% among those hideous and wrinkly Boomers, for example. The question is, will these millions of folks be able to multiple their savings like horny, Cialis-laced bunnies in the next decade? The answer? Well, look at this chart.

DEBT RATIO

Nope. There’s absolutely zero diminution in the trajectory of that graph. Debt growth may have slowed a little in recent months, but every week we owe more than the one before. As anyone with a fat HELOC, student debt or a swollen mortgage knows, it’s easy to get into debt but it takes years – decades, even – to get out.

Now imagine how impossible this is going to be when 85% of the population is spending 95% of earned income just getting by. Where the heck will the extra money to come from to pay off debt quickly? To build retirement savings? To save for your kid’s university escapades? To insulate against job loss, divorce, sick parents or any of the other crap that life throws around?

Meanwhile the average Toronto house costs $503,000. In Van it’s $620,000 and Calgary $454,000, as we continue to be bombarded with house porn. The latest gush just came from a Sotheby’s Realty Canada, whose useless news release claiming luxury homes are flying off the shelf was picked up by most media outlets. Ironically it slithered in the same day StatsCan published household income figures showing how badly off we are. Ninety-nine per cent of Canadians earn less than $190,000, or don’t have $1 million to invest, which means luxury house sales matter to almost nobody. By the way, that 1% now earns 20% of all the money.

And how did the rich people get that way? You can bet it wasn’t through buying houses with 95% financing, or putting 100% of their net worth into one asset. Residential real estate is almost exclusively a middle class affliction, and a dangerous addiction. For the wealthy, houses are fun, but the serious money’s liquid.

It would be wise to copy that. There’s still a little time.

166 comments ↓

#1 Donald Trump on 09.11.13 at 7:52 pm

Automatic…in any official language .

#2 East Van on 09.11.13 at 7:57 pm

And how did the rich people get that way?

The same way they always have…by screwing the 99%

Actually they gave you a mortgage, and house lust, and let you do it to yourself. — Garth

#3 TurnerNation on 09.11.13 at 7:58 pm

I wonder if this weblog caters to the vulgus.

B, B, and BP.

This is a full-service blog. Send me your huddled masses yearning to breathe free and the wretched refuse of your teeming condo. — Garth

#4 johnny m on 09.11.13 at 8:03 pm

Detached house in affluent Oakville, listed in June for 589900 sold yesterday for 546000

#5 Goldie on 09.11.13 at 8:03 pm

Yep, and now we all have to put up with the rehashing of the debt celing fight between dems and repubs, along with contant MSM coverage… Coming soon!

Non-event. — Garth

#6 TurnerNation on 09.11.13 at 8:10 pm

6% off my gross pay goes into RRSP which is matched by company – 3% of gross pay – yearly.

Plus $200/mo into employee equity plan which is matched 100% but must wait a few years before touching matching amount.
Loose ‘golden handcuffs’. Enforced savings.

#7 TurnerNation on 09.11.13 at 8:14 pm

New Rule-of-KIA: yearly, try saving the amount of a base model KIA.

http://www.kia.ca/pages/pricing/pricekia.aspx

#8 Nemesis on 09.11.13 at 8:15 pm

I’ll see your Rhetorical and raise you a Balzac, AuldPol…

“The secret of great fortunes without apparent cause is a crime forgotten, for it was properly done.”

BonusBalzac:

“To be able to keep a mother-in-law in the country while he lives in Paris, and vice versa, is a piece of good fortune which a husband too rarely meets with.”

#9 Goldie on 09.11.13 at 8:16 pm

It all depends on your definition of a “non-event”. If you mean that it won’t make any difference in the big picture then I agree, but if you think it will be non-event as far as the hysterical media, and your good friends the doomers are concerned…

#10 Adam on 09.11.13 at 8:16 pm

Is Flaherty too close to an election to make any adjustments? I’m thinking he is. Garth…..what say you?

#11 Victor V on 09.11.13 at 8:19 pm

I posted in an earlier blog about XRE yielding 5%+ and there was some questions about this. For those interested in learning more Garth has written a couple of blogs recently on the topic:

http://www.greaterfool.ca/2013/08/08/bad-dogs-2/

http://www.greaterfool.ca/2013/09/08/incredulous/

#12 TurnerNation on 09.11.13 at 8:22 pm

Reference beyond me. ENG 101 in Uni. Was expecting a frosty reception…for what a word’s worth.

#13 Victor V on 09.11.13 at 8:23 pm

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/personal-finance/mortgages/a-rare-breed-the-debt-averse-house-hunter/article14264162/

Frank’s an engineer and his wife is an office administrator. They make good money, they’ve got no debt other than their condo mortgage and they’ve put together a down payment of $125,000. The bank says buying a $700,000 house is no problem for them, but Frank is squeamish about spending that much money. For the past three years, he’s been saving with a goal of spending $500,000 on a starter home.

“The problem is that over the past two or three years, while we’ve been saving our down payment, the half-million-dollar starter home became a three-quarters-of-a-million-dollar starter home.”

Canada needs more Franks – people who take a skeptical to paranoid view of debt. We’d have a more affordable housing market, lower household debt levels and less vulnerability to rising interest rates. We’d be both healthier as a country, and quite possibly wealthier.

But you can’t easily opt out of taking on big debts. If everyone else in Toronto is willing to keep bidding house prices higher, then what’s a guy like Frank supposed to do if he wants a house for his family?

#14 guelphstudent on 09.11.13 at 8:26 pm

Bottom 90% have an average income of $28,000

Meanwhile, 45.5% of condo owners in Canada live in apartment alone or with roommates!

#15 Westernman on 09.11.13 at 8:34 pm

East Van @ # 2,
Grow up chump – the majority of the rich got rich by thinking logically, planning well and by working hard AND long while the majority of the poor spent their time watching T.V., drinking and smoking and hanging out at bars and casino’s…
Actions have consequences…

#16 bigtown on 09.11.13 at 8:42 pm

19th century Paris is repeated today in Toronto. Read HONORE DE BALZAC. Go to the Toronto library and pick up some Balzac for free.

#17 Pr on 09.11.13 at 8:59 pm

…And how did the rich people get that way? You can bet it wasn’t through buying houses with 95% financing…

..it’s easy to get into debt but it takes years – decades, even – to get out.

This blog is such a nice place to finish my day. It makes me happy to see, that some where, some people care.

#18 Deets on 09.11.13 at 9:01 pm

Stats Can reported that 68% of homeowners own their homes outright. No mortgage. This actually sounds like a positive stat to me. Any comments?

#19 Nemesis on 09.11.13 at 9:07 pm

Egads! I nearly forgot…

@SmokingMan/#163″WhoCanYouTrust”

http://youtu.be/6yQJEGcI-Uw?t=2m17s

Admittedly, ‘Pinocchios’ will – occasionally – ‘prosper’ for a time [so to speak]… In the FabledLongRun, however… NotSoMuch.

FoodForThought.

#20 Smoking Man on 09.11.13 at 9:12 pm

Excellent post sir garths alot

All the people I know who are loaded, including me made our loot building and selling business, we used people who have been trained to be obidant slaves by our wonderful education system, to afraid of there own shadow to ask for a raise. Their going to compete with me.

Ha

I unload tones of real estate bought a small bungalow fearing a melt down ever since reading this pathetic blog last 4 years, As I have since realize the herd here is different. They won’t go down with out a fight.

The money I made selling business and invested, no that’s a wrong word gambled with has put me in a position were if I chose too, I can spend the rest of my days boating and casino hooping.

The only reason I work at the tax farm is because I’m demented,

I have an ego the size of Jupiter. The software I build, doesn’t brake, runs like a Swiss watch. I’m the only one in the building that don’t have a master’s or a PhD.

My pass in high school was a gift to my charm, I really should have failed. But I sucked in my teachers.

Now the PhD doing simular work to me, build garbage,brakes all the time, it’s horrible, how these people still have jobs freaks me out. Yoda not included, he’s Einstein smart.

Lucky for them the bussines is good at making money,

What a show, I’ll keep doing it, I can’t believe I get paid for a front row seat to this entertainment.

#21 Vangrrl on 09.11.13 at 9:14 pm

Westernman- riiiight, nice generalization. I’d say it’s a bit of both, as some people earn far more than they deserve to for what they do (our society’s skewed values) and vice versa.

#22 Chickenlittle on 09.11.13 at 9:16 pm

http://business.financialpost.com/2013/08/26/rising-mortgage-rates-no-reason-to-panic/

I was just reading this right before I read your post tonight.

Apparently there’s nothing to worry about when rates go up.

But wait, there’s more. They only calculate this for the next 5 years. What about 10 years from now?

He does agree with you on the variable rate mortgage. It’s the 5 year calculation that I just can’t get past though…

Quote: ““There is a real opportunity if you are disciplined to take advantage of a variable rate,” says Mr. Gaetano. “I think the key is make your payment [based on higher rate] and you will hammer your mortgage down aggressively.”

I would tend to agree with this but oh no, we have a problem…

“Apparently 40% spend every cent they earn. Another 45% spend 95% of their pay. That means fewer than one in 20 people saves at least 5% of his or her income.” Garth

So how does someone pay down more every year when they can’t even save 10% of their income?

#23 Mister Obvious on 09.11.13 at 9:16 pm

“For the wealthy, houses are fun, but the serious money’s liquid.
————————

I’ve been living by that wisdom for the past three years. Except houses have lost their charm entirely.

But the liquid money is still a real hoot.

#24 M on 09.11.13 at 9:18 pm

Never in history “the people” (as large collectives of tastes, behaviors, etc) had a chance to show what they really represent.
Never in history was more obvious the importance of the high quality in the “elites”.

Now… what one should be scared #%$#@[email protected] when taking a look at our “elites”

Then again, as a “collective” we do have some responsibilities for the crap “elites” we produced. It starts home. Take a good look in your back yard.

Euthyphro, Apology, Crito and Phaedo , the essence of all that we are (take it in a symbolic way), was lost from knowledge of the masses many many decades ago. All that would offer a measure of self protection against the animal of “wants” was never cultivated in the last few decades (few notable exceptions do indeed apply).

Fat, dumb, broke and in debt is the result.

#25 Chickenlittle on 09.11.13 at 9:31 pm

PS: Ralph Cramdown:

You are everywhere! I just saw that you commented on the article I just posted…

#26 45north on 09.11.13 at 9:32 pm

Damn that bond market.

pretty funny

The toll this has exacted on the middle class cannot be overstated.

you know, I remember the Depression in history class, how people borrowed money to buy stocks which pushed up the price of the stocks. I also remember reading how controls were put in place afterwards to prevent such a crash. Well in the 30’s the masses didn’t buy stocks and they didn’t borrow money to do so but now they borrow money to buy houses.

So whatever toll has been exacted on the middle class is about to increase – the damage will go beyond numbers because by now the Canadian population is deeply indebted and interest rates are going up. How many more letters does the Nice Lady at the Bank send out? I mean the situation is about to become desperate.

Stephen Harper, Justin Trudeau and what’s his name – Mulcair. All of them together are not really going to do anything.

#27 Alex Jones on 09.11.13 at 9:33 pm

‘And how did the rich people get that way?’

My views are well known.

Look me up if you don’t know.

#28 CrowdedElevatorfartz on 09.11.13 at 9:36 pm

@#21 vangrrrrrl
Soory but I have to agree with WesternMano.
Most people’s money problems are self inflicted.

#29 Mike T on 09.11.13 at 9:38 pm

‘Actually they gave you a mortgage, and house lust, and let you do it to yourself’

this is 100% accurate in my view

lots of people want to complain about the rich, the banks, the elite, the lizards….whatever….and blame them for mis-fortunes

they cannot hurt you unless you let them

they lay the trap, you fall for it, hopefully lesson learned

good or bad, individual people are responsible for everything in their own lives

#30 Spiltbongwater on 09.11.13 at 9:41 pm

I heard on the radio this morning the majority of the 1% is middle aged white male. What they left out obv. is that of the middle aged white people the majority of those are the Juice. I was surprised cause I thought the Chinese were really rich, but they must not declare all their income, so don’t fit into the stats correctly.

Go away. — Garth

#31 takla on 09.11.13 at 9:41 pm

fewer than 1 in 20 save 5% of there income,think about that for a moment…incredible stat!!What a losey way to go thru life,house broke with no savings,And people have been lineing up for this self induced punishment the last decade or two just for bragging rights on who has the nicer particle board box{with granite countertops:] }Incredible,sad to say i was one of them .Since i was able to flog my ball an chain my checks are all mine,no more hotwater tanks,new roofs,furnace maintenance,exterior paint,interior paint,new flooring,reno’s ,house insurance,morgage,property tax’s, ect ect ect.and the best part……. im not holding a declineing asset any longer,ahhh freedom 55

#32 Blase on 09.11.13 at 9:42 pm

pet peeve: including condo apartments in average house price.

Condos aren’t freaking houses.

#33 Smoking Man on 09.11.13 at 9:43 pm

The funny thing is, being a contractor the criteria for eduction is relaxed, on my list of conquests, ak cv, resume, I have listed as my post secondary education UOG, University of Google

No one has ever asked me where that is. They are to busy salivating on the things of done. And the folks I know

The art of the lie.

#34 Don on 09.11.13 at 9:44 pm

As daycare costs creep up I am hearing that more and more that one parent is staying at home…well unless it takes two people to pay the mortgage…which it does in Vancouver that or grow pot…but with the price of pot down a third it is harder to make easy money. Vancouver is a haven for Pot growers they are on every street especially in the more expensive areas and a wide range of demographics are doing it.

Forgive me if I am wrong but didn’t the 80’s see a housing bust, record high interest, and a spike in divorce rates.

Hmmm. history doesn’t repeat but it rhythms, the boomers suffer from recency and the virgins don’t know have to research or why they should engage in a healthy amount of research. They have a great deal of information on their finger tips…what a shame.

#35 Roy on 09.11.13 at 9:52 pm

Beer sign pretty much sums up the masses

People here probably believe rising interest rates also equals rising home prices. Better grab my beer goggles

It’s so different here, really the party never ends because it’s not a party. Housing is not an artificially induced high

Over summer people bought lots of houses here… booming sales… cheapo mortgages in this country 4EVR…

Interest rates are at all-time lows because they are permanent. We need permanent low interest rates to save the economy remember. If that changes we’re so screwed.

Sign us all up for more dirt cheap housing wealth here, its all we believe in, LOL

$1.25 trillion in mortgage debt and counting, CMHC guarantees we pay the bill, no risk to the banks. It doesn’t get any better than this, no we’re not slaves

And that half of Canadians 50 or older that have less than a quarter of the money saved they’ll need for retirement- Still not a problem at all

We live longer. They’re going to work until they’re 80 or 90 because never before in history have we been so healthy so late in our lives

Boomers approaching retirement are now reportedly taking low-wage part-time jobs in record numbers.

It’s not a concealed panic to support our debt binging, really- boomers are taking those jobs because they love the quality of the work LOL

And no employment gains last month for youth. Many are racking up their own small mortgages going to college. Still 16.8% national unemployment rate for those 24 and under.

No signs of societal degradation

Economy is good

Strong housing figures

Open wallet vote of confidence

Next

#36 Obvious Truth on 09.11.13 at 9:53 pm

Lived what I thought was poor as a kid. Single tradesman income. Parents always had upwards of 100000 in the bank.

That was in the 80s and my dad had a defined pension. What a mess.

Anyway, another great post Garth. Agree with mister obvious. When you have enough money to buy them, houses are boring and not worth the money.

Really nobody with a million dollars would move to a smelly Toronto neighbourhood. I wouldn’t live in one of those up and coming neighbourhood homes that you often post here if you gave it to me. It’s really a joke.

Ridicule is turning to Da Nile as rates start to bite. Tone has changed a little. It’s a long introspective paddle, with some rapids to make it memorable, until we see the Obvious Truth.

It’s not a housing bubble it’s a debt bubble. They always end badly.

Still expecting rates to back up. No inflation and probably no taper. But those too will come.

For debtors it will mean serious short term pain but debts will shrink in relation to price.

For savers. Easy money! That’s way more exciting than granite. Besides you don’t get in shit when you crack it.

#37 Vamanos Pest on 09.11.13 at 9:55 pm

The Canadian Payroll Association survey (misidentified in today’s blog as a “study”) is a joke. No conclusions can be drawn from it and it has no scientific or statistical validity.

“The polling industries professional body, the Marketing Research and Intelligence Association, says online surveys cannot be assigned margins of error because they do not randomly sample the population” In the statistics world, this is tantamount to an outright rejection of the findings as meaningful in any way. If translated from math-speak, it could be paraphrased: We have no idea how accurate this information is because the data collection method was so flawed that we cannot even evaluate it.

Garth, if this survey was to be mentioned in your blog, it should only have been to condemn its publication.

#38 Willdaman on 09.11.13 at 9:57 pm

Just to throw a scenario out there…say I pay through the nose to buy a starter home now, and by the time i’m ready to ‘upgrade’ my house the real estate market is in the toilet. I sell my starter home for a ‘loss’, but at the same time the value of the bigger home i want to buy has also tanked.

Isn’t this a bit of a wash? Am i missing something, or is the ebbs and flows of the market really a non-factor for people who buy and sell / upgrade primary residences over long time periods??

(Note i’m only looking at ‘upgrading’ houses, and not downsizing, where i can see how you would actually lose real money by buying a big house at the height of the market and selling it in a depressed market to buy something smaller).

#39 Smoking Man on 09.11.13 at 9:58 pm

Why does a man of my stature, skill, wealth talk shit on here night after night. That’s what keep asking myself.

Ultimately I got just one book in this head, and with the worst literacy skills know to man, I am painfully doing a few pages a night, I just want maybe 100 or so people to buy it. I figure I will have 22 sales up to this point.

But 100 sales to me would be millions to others.

Some people collect stamps.

#40 Vamanos Pest on 09.11.13 at 10:05 pm

#2 East Van

WRONG

I’m in the 1% (as defined by the NHS survey). I got here by working my ass off for a decade acquiring skills that are in short supply and high demand. As a consequence, I’m payed a lot to provide these skills. My provision of these skills, in small part, contributes to the competitiveness of the economy as a whole. What do you contribute? Whatever your answer, I’m sure your compensated accordingly.

#41 Ralph Cramdown on 09.11.13 at 10:06 pm

#36 Willdaman — “I sell my starter home for a ‘loss’, but at the same time the value of the bigger home i want to buy has also tanked.”

The classic real estate agent fable. It’s true — as long as your starter home is paid off. If you still owe 50% of its value and prices go down 25%, you’ve lost 1/2 of your equity. Can you still afford to move up?

#42 Freedom First on 09.11.13 at 10:09 pm

Residential real estate…………………and a dangerous addiction….well said Garth, and sadly, this has been proven to be true world wide, with this addiction having bankrupted millions of families. To all people who are in debt: “Debt is not wealth, it is slavery”.

The stats can article that Garth is referring to clearly shows that “ignorance” is the main cause of insane behavior. I define ignorance as simply being a case of someone doing what they think is right, instead of someone who knows that what they are doing is right. Simply put “Fly with the crows and you will get shot”. For me, Garth’s free blog, if you read all of the articles up until today, will put the odds heavily in your favor of living in financial freedom beyond what you can imagine. Mind you, it takes some things the masses sorely lack: “knowledge, discipline, and the ability to think”. These can all be learned, and Garth has supplied everything you need in his blog. All you have to do, is put it into practice. The rich know this is true.

Last thing, people who comment on something Garth has written in one post, and I mean argue with him about one sentence or paragraph, do not realize how often they are taking what he is saying “out of context”. If you are a steady reader of his blog, you are not paying attention and learning anything, as he most certainly has already dealt with your insane financially illiterate comment. Or else, you make your living off of the ignorance of the masses and you despise someone who is trying to actually help save them from your unethical, cruel, greedy and utterly sociopathic behavior. Thank God for Karma. Than you Garth, and the more people you piss off, the more I know how much you are helping the people who need help. I love it.

#43 KG on 09.11.13 at 10:10 pm

Garth, you allow dimwits to post comments too ?

Of course. Go ahead. — Garth

#44 2CentsCdn on 09.11.13 at 10:10 pm

Great article.
The middle class spends every nickle they have (and can borrow) trying to appear rich. They want it all NOW! Most rich I know struggled, clawed, stressed and did without for quite a while to get ahead …. and to actually “become” wealthy ….. and only then did they loosen up the purse strings and buy some of the good stuff. Many truly wealthy are low key and don’t spoil themselves much or show off. And the 1% rich didn’t all screw the 99% masses to get where they are. Often they simply provided stuff or services that the masses wanted…. at a price they were happy to pay. But always they took risk. Risks most wouldn’t dare dive into.

People seem happier telling themselves they are victims (takes the blame off of them somehow) …. instead of figuring out how to become independently wealthy (too much work, sacrifice, thought and time). They gotta be a rock star or have the winning lottery ticket to get themselves to financial bliss.

#45 Vamanos Pest on 09.11.13 at 10:12 pm

#18 Deets

WRONG

The number you are quoting is the number of people who own homes (with or without a mortgage).

The number you are looking for is closer to 40%, and in 1991 this same number was almost 50%, so sorry, not a positive trend to that stat at all.

#46 Freedom First on 09.11.13 at 10:12 pm

…at the end of my comment…..that should read “Thank you…..

#47 Julia on 09.11.13 at 10:13 pm

#39 Smoking Man
I would buy a stamp with you on it.

#48 Poste Haste on 09.11.13 at 10:16 pm

Maybe part of the answer on why people have squat on savings – they are piling every penny they have into the mortgage – people always think the worst – never thinking outside the box.

My brother paid off his house in 7 years, he took it on the chin. No vacations, no furniture in which he had 2 empty rooms. He figured he saved over $118,000 in interest savings alone. Now, he’s sitting with approx. $1800 per month in idle cash. Travelling to South America twice a year, enough cash to buy a BMW – and still enough coin to add to his retirement which is 30 years away.

Me, it will take me abit longer, 12 years in total. I am one of those guys with little savings, but I figured a interest savings of $63,000 and a well devised plan to get my savings healthy within 4 years…

Not all is so doom and gloom people.

#49 MississaugaBoy on 09.11.13 at 10:25 pm

5 Best Performing Small Cap Mutual Funds Year to Date

http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/5-best-performing-small-cap-212456207.html

#50 Smoking Man on 09.11.13 at 10:31 pm

My most prized possession in life, not including my family, my India Jones hat. I love it, I put it on, lightning and god are afraid of me.

Amazing how our belief system rules us. It’s not logical, I never put on a huge trade with out it on.

And I have never list with it on. Yellow pages, didn’t have it on, but it was a tiny trade

It’s 10 years old, it’s worth millions to me.

#51 deets on 09.11.13 at 10:40 pm

@ Vamanos

Watch this short video till end.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/inside-the-market/market-view-video/video-market-view-who-are-canadas-1-per-cent/article14243530/

#52 Smoking Man on 09.11.13 at 10:41 pm

#43 Julia on 09.11.13 at 10:13 pm
#39 Smoking Man I would buy a stamp with you on it.

I would buy you if you showed up on back page, I don’t do free bees.

Paid to go away. All the same it’s a shtick, I’m sure your a nice chic.

Look I’m a poet, it ryims. Ha, another wine please wifyee poo

#53 45north on 09.11.13 at 10:47 pm

Will da Man: I sell my starter home for a ‘loss’, but at the same time the value of the bigger home i want to buy has also tanked.

Isn’t this a bit of a wash?

yeah it is Will if you paid cash for the starter home. You take the loss but throw in some more cash and voilà you get the bigger home.

but take a drive Will and look at the houses, and you need special glasses for this, the front door of each house has the percentage equity. Sometimes the number is on the garage door. Do you see all the houses with 20%, 10% 0% ? If prices drop they cannot move, if interest rates rise they cannot pay their mortgages.

#54 Toronto_CA on 09.11.13 at 10:47 pm

#38 Willdaman on 09.11.13 at 9:57 pm

Did you even see what happened in the US when prices fell? It is not a wash when prices fall if most people are underwater in their mortgage and the RE economy (20+%) tanks resulting in a recession. Leverage makes falling prices very dangerous, 5% down mortgage with a 10 or 20% market drop means people can’t sell unless they come up with the difference. Which they can’t. So they default.

That’s what you’re “missing”. Lord you’d think the GFC was 70 years ago instead of 5.

#55 young & foolish on 09.11.13 at 10:47 pm

Ahhh, the 1% ….. they used to own you, and the land you lived on, now they own you and your debt …. it’s the new face of fuedalism, don’t you know?

#56 Smoking Man on 09.11.13 at 10:48 pm

Look at the new show, The Bridge, Amazing, rumour has it’s Canadian produced or directed or something.

If that’s true, Canadians rock.

We are coming out people…..

#57 KG on 09.11.13 at 10:53 pm

True, if I was not one, wouldn’t have to read your blog.

#58 Suede on 09.11.13 at 10:54 pm

Prince George – it’s different here… There’s now an Earls. Thank goodness I have somewhere cool to go on a stopover.

Speaking of debt… There’s a bobcat outside the front door of the airport here and they ccompany is offering 0% financing on it lol.

You know you’re in Canada when…

#59 Suede on 09.11.13 at 10:59 pm

SM,

Sign me up for a book.

I will probably photocopy it though and infringe the copyright so i can give it to my mother in law so she can have a panic attack.

If Garth is batman around these domains, you’re Robin. Or Joker maybe.. He’s still a cool bad guy.

#60 Donald Trump on 09.11.13 at 11:01 pm

Found and old treaty between Nativz and pepulz east of Rahkeys….

If live in overpriced carboard bahx….will be compensated and no taxesz

#61 not 1st on 09.11.13 at 11:06 pm

“Ninety-nine per cent of Canadians earn less than $190,000”
___

Is that households or individuals?

#62 Devore on 09.11.13 at 11:06 pm

#18 Deets

Stats Can reported that 68% of homeowners own their homes outright. No mortgage. This actually sounds like a positive stat to me. Any comments?

Did they report how much HELOC debt they have? Treating your house like an ATM was not a uniquely American affliction, but there it was massively advantageous to refinance your mortgage as rates kept falling. In Canada, not as much.

#63 Siva on 09.11.13 at 11:07 pm

In next two years homeownership rate will drop from 70% to mid or even low 60s – John Andrews of Queen’s University on CTV news tonight. That sounds like a RE crash to me.

#64 Devore on 09.11.13 at 11:08 pm

#21 Vangrrl

some people earn far more than they deserve to for what they do (our society’s skewed values) and vice versa

And of course you’re the judge of that, right?

#65 Siva on 09.11.13 at 11:17 pm

#51 deets on 09.11.13 at 10:40 pm

That lady was wrong. 69% of households own their home but 59% of households have a mortgage.

#66 NetCentric on 09.11.13 at 11:18 pm

Oh for God’s sake. I’ve been studying my butt off for the past few weeks trying to understand the bond market and its relationship to interest rates, mortgages etc. I’ve been studying economics/finance for the past year and bonds are the most confusing concept I’ve encountered because finance site seems to use different metrics.

Now this: “Long term Bond yields went up 15 bpts last week therefore decreasing spreads.” My understanding was that bond yields and mortgage rates had a positive relationship i.e. if one goes up so does the other. So what “decreasing” spreads is [email protected] referring to in this case? Spreads between what?

#67 dienekes on 09.11.13 at 11:22 pm

Listening to an interview with Brett Wilson few years ago, interesting guy, but seems to be a flake since cancer. He has money so I understand. He mentioned he didn’t like that his debt to went to 1/3 of his total worth after 2008.
And the middle class will leverage themselves to 95% or more of there worth.
Learn from the rich. They save today to spend tomorrow. Not spend there futures today to die in debt.

#68 Devore on 09.11.13 at 11:22 pm

#36 Obvious Truth

Anyway, another great post Garth. Agree with mister obvious. When you have enough money to buy them, houses are boring and not worth the money.

Human nature. When we grow up thinking something is out of our reach, and then suddenly we discover we can have it, man, that’s exciting. When I bought my condo, I couldn’t sleep the first night there. Before the month was up, it was just a place to live. Before the year was up, it was a really expensive place to live.

#69 thank you Smoking Man on 09.11.13 at 11:42 pm

I’ve been struggling with insomnia lately.

Your numerous posts tonight have done the trick, I am nodding off now.

thx

#70 Yuus bin Haad on 09.11.13 at 11:46 pm

Ah, gee … I was supposed to go for a haircut today. Thanks for reminding me!

#71 Smoking Man's Old Man on 09.12.13 at 12:15 am

I get the feeling that animals, after watching us in our daily lives, say a little prayer every night giving thanks that they aren’t human beings/doings…

#72 T.O. Bubble Boy on 09.12.13 at 12:19 am

@ #18 Deets on 09.11.13 at 9:01 pm
Stats Can reported that 68% of homeowners own their homes outright. No mortgage. This actually sounds like a positive stat to me. Any comments?
——————-

ya – you are wrong.

69% of Canadians “own” a home, but not outright. that is EVERYONE, including the zero-down 100% financing crowd.

Of those 69%, 58.6% of homeowners were still paying off their mortgages according to the 2011 survey.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/09/11/national-household-survey-income-canada_n_3906023.html

So, 41.4% of 69% (28.6% of Canadians) own a home outright.

#73 Waterloo Resident on 09.12.13 at 12:37 am

I’ll tell you how the 1% earn 20% of the cash in today’s economy. They borrow money at these incredibly low rates but instead of buying non-productive assets such as houses, they invest in productive businesses or they invest in stocks of OTHER companies that ARE productive.

SIMPLE.

#74 Fed-up on 09.12.13 at 1:08 am

@#51 deets
———————————————————————-

I watched it until the end. It said nothing about 69% of Canadians owning their home without mortgage. She only stated that 69% “own” their home (most mortgaged and HELOC’ed up to their eyeballs) which is a stat that has been thrown around this blog for the past 18 months.

#75 JG on 09.12.13 at 1:14 am

@ Smoking Man

Please get a life and stop talking nonsense. You are getting extremely annoying now.

#76 Vamanos Pest on 09.12.13 at 1:15 am

#51 Deets

Oh. My. God. I watched the video you asked me to. Nowhere does it say “outright, no mortgage” as you stated in your original comment.

In order for you to be this wrong, you actually have to misunderstand what you see the first time (which isn’t that complicated), have me correct you (which was pretty clear about where you made your mistake), then, even after my explanation, still get it wrong (which is now totally inexplicable).

So, for the second time (please try to read this time, and if it helps, imagine me speaking slowly for you):

The number you are quoting is the number of people who own their home WITH OR WITHOUT A MORTGAGE. So it’s NOT the number of people who own their home “outright. No mortgage.” as you originally stated. As I said, that number is closer to 40% and in 1991 was closer to 50% so it’s getting worse, not better. No “positives” here.

Wait, are you actually unaware that if you have a mortgage on your house you are still considered to own that home? Nevermind, I give up on trying to help you with this and will return to my original statement, which even you can understand:

WRONG.

#77 sideline sitter on 09.12.13 at 1:26 am

two things:
– forget caeser stone, buy Cambria, made in US with Canadian raw material.

– Per thenew rule of Kia, I’m already past Cadenza; so happy to be renting!!!

#78 Smartalox on 09.12.13 at 1:43 am

That’s a great chart. It illustrates the offset between the progress of the USA and Canadian economies respectively.

Looking at the offset apparent on the way up, Canada should be experiencing its crash any time now!

#79 Max Torque on 09.12.13 at 2:19 am

Re: #13: There is something wrong with the market when starter homes are a half to 3/4 million

#80 cynically on 09.12.13 at 2:29 am

To #51 deets – I have to believe that Vamanos is correct about your statement that 68% of homeowners own their homes outright. The passage you referred to on the G&M blurb had Ms Nelson using the 68% figure but not the word outright. She was using ownership as opposed to renting when she said that figure owned their homes. We wouldn’t have as big a problem otherwise. Easy mistake.

#81 still waiting on 09.12.13 at 2:40 am

Garth

How do you see this crash playing out, will it happen fast and furious or will it be slow and dragged out for decades…..

#82 Dean Mason on 09.12.13 at 3:22 am

The problem is not a 3.80% mortgage or 4.80% or even 5.80%. It’s the almost 2.75 times higher they paid for a house or condo compared to 20 years ago.

They just paid all their interest in advance. Before, people could pay off their mortgage sooner and save the interest that would be paid for years.

Now, they have a huge debt so most of the interest in a disguise or illusion of 2.75 times higher prices in advance. It’s much worse now.

#83 MontrealHousingBubble on 09.12.13 at 5:14 am

The problem is not only the fact that people can’t save but tax are going up much faster than inflation rate.

It is explained here : bulleimmobilieremontreal.blogspot.ca

#84 Buy? Curious? on 09.12.13 at 5:32 am

Hey Garth! I was just thinking (it happens sporadically) won’t immigration keep housing going up and up? Canada is huge and can absorb whomever wants to move here. Do I care if my parents have to sell their house to Pavindeer but my kids will have to take out an $800k mortgage? Not at all! Immigration is what makes this country so damn great! Get rid of French as an official language, stop getting bitched by Quebecers, let anyone in that’s got $100k along with their family and let’s party! You get a samosa! You get a samosa! Everybody gets a samosa!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKxBoPgujNk

#85 maxx on 09.12.13 at 6:39 am

“Now imagine how impossible this is going to be when 85% of the population is spending 95% of earned income just getting by. Where the heck will the extra money to come from to pay off debt quickly? To build retirement savings? To save for your kid’s university escapades? To insulate against job loss, divorce, sick parents or any of the other crap that life throws around?”

….and those unavoidable life events will manifest. We now have rapidly declining disposable income for the rest of the economy…as it is, many are already shopping off of the retail grid for everything from clothing to kitchenware to furniture. Good for your green and green for the planet.

Looking at the graph, Canucks didn’t take a blind bit of notice of their debt to income in ’08-’09, unlike the Americans.

Crazed beyond redemption into house horniness by the house-humping cartel.

Not owning your hormones is so passé and even more gauche.

#86 Smoking Man on 09.12.13 at 7:10 am

After trash talking the PhD yesterday didn’t feel good about what I said. After all I know the guys, they’re OK.

Sitting in back yard, polishing the last drops of 1.5 litter of wine it hits me.

There stuff breaking all the time is a direct result of them being smart.

You see coming from business my mind is trained to keep it simple, efficient, productive. Then move on to next thing. That’s why my stuff don’t break.

The PhD doesn’t think like that, they are always trying to prove how smart they are to other PhD so their apps try and do to much, un nessasay over complex, users experience frustrating . One size fits all is dumb.

With Microsoft technology that’s a disaster waiting to happen.

#87 maxx on 09.12.13 at 7:27 am

#35 Roy on 09.11.13 at 9:52 pm

Great post Roy….we can also add the increased security everyone will need when more SHTF and people become even more desperate for cash.

We already have loads of cyber crime….and credit card companies won’t give customers the choice of disabling the “speedy-greedy-quickly wave your cash away” RFID embedded in the card if they don’t want it. So, if some jerk skims your card, you now have to waste time explaining and justifying what happened to another jerk who couldn’t give a rat’s behind.

#88 John on 09.12.13 at 8:09 am

Interesting to see how many national retailers have been dumping real estate holdings into REITS. Canadian Tire being the most recent. Seems like they have timed the market well.

#89 241A65 on 09.12.13 at 8:43 am

Hey Garth –

‘Real estate did this.’

Really? How about cheap Canadian employers and obscenely high taxes on EVERYTHING? Not to mention an entitled government worker class for whom Christmas arrives every day, courtesy of these same Canadian taxpayers.

Bottom line: The average Canadian WON’T save because the average Canadian CAN’T save. They have nothing left after Ottawa and the provinces and the municipalities are done with them.

Y’know, being a middle-class guy all my life, working in the financial markets and being well right-of-centre in my views, I never thought I’d buy into this 1% / 99% line. But it is starting to make some sense to me. Go figure.

#90 deets on 09.12.13 at 8:47 am

@ Vamanos

lol. Wow. Doesn’t take much to get you agitated. Next time I want to be entertained by the response of a very bitter blog troller I will be sure to comment here. I hope life gets better for you.

#91 Grantmi on 09.12.13 at 9:11 am

TORONTO – Baby boomers may be looking to trade their traditional single-family homes for the convenience and comfort of the condo craze, but a mass exodus is likely still a long ways off, real-estate experts and recent retirees say.

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Boomers+like+their+homes+gardens+they+rushing+downsize+condos/8898611/story.html

Feet first… They are moving out feet first.

Yea right. Till they fall down the stairs and break their hip. (or necks)

#92 torontorocks on 09.12.13 at 9:23 am

Thank God we have Smoking Man. If his code wasn’t so robust, clearly the world would close in itself

#93 Brian Josephson on 09.12.13 at 9:57 am

#91 deets
Yes, hopelessly stupid people have a way of getting to me, I’ll try to work on that.

#94 Anonymous coward on 09.12.13 at 10:00 am

“That means fewer than one in 20 people saves at least 5% of his or her income.”

That’s not right, according to the Canadian Payroll Association survey: http://www.payroll.ca/cpadocs/Media/NewsReleases/2013_NPW_MediaPackage.pdf
Check the last page (pg 15), “Rate of Savings: Percentage of employees saving only 5% or less of their pay” across Canada is 45%, meaning 55% save more.
For the full breakdown see page 3.

Keep reading. 40% save nothing. — Garth

#95 Rex on 09.12.13 at 10:13 am

Amazing how for years now, this blog talks about real estate prices coming down, yet they keep going up.

The country is bigger than your street. Many markets are now eroding. Pay attention. — Garth

#96 Wally on 09.12.13 at 10:31 am

Canadian house prices rise to all-time record high in August.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/top-business-stories/home-prices-rise-23-as-market-rebounds-but-fall-in-vancouver-victoria/article14271845/

Obviously, to this point in time anyway, “sell Canada” has been bad advice.

Au contraire. It’s the best advice. Nobody got wiped out selling early. — Garth

#97 realmoneyearner on 09.12.13 at 10:56 am

I have never met a wealthy person who got that way through ‘balanced’ investing. The recent stats show that wealth is almost non existent in Canada…..instead…the elites are the civil servants who get huge paycheques and also receve massive pensions…..didn’t anyone notice that firemen now make more than doctors?

Learn the differenmce between income and assets. — Garth

#98 Jim Lahey on 09.12.13 at 11:09 am

#20 Smoking Man

“I unload tones of real estate bought a small bungalow fearing a melt down ever since reading this pathetic blog last 4 years, As I have since realize the herd here is different. They won’t go down with out a fight.”

Enjoyed watching the real estate you unloaded only go up in the last 4 years ? This crash which this blog has been predicting for 5 years has yet to materialize. Anyone not leveraged and who bought pre 2005 is not going to be affected in any significant way even if there is some kind of correction in the GTA. Assuming the wolf crying real estate collapse crowd is even right…

#99 RonH on 09.12.13 at 11:13 am

B.C. Real Estate R.I.P.

BC Hydro is looking for a 26 to 40% rate increase by the
end of this decade. The wallet is only so big. Now, did I plugin my IToys?

#100 Nonno Nicola's Grandson on 09.12.13 at 11:18 am

“And how did the rich people get that way? You can bet it wasn’t through buying houses with 95% financing, or putting 100% of their net worth into one asset. Residential real estate is almost exclusively a middle class affliction, and a dangerous addiction. For the wealthy, houses are fun, but the serious money’s liquid.”

I am posting this on behalf of my grandfather Nonno Nicola who apparently offended some sensitive readers of this blog. Folks, he only has a grade 5 education. Anyhoots, funny that you should mention that the rich are into liquid assets and real estate is a minor side concern. Nonno Nicola is worth millions of dollars and it was ALL done through real estate. He wouldn’t know the difference between a stock and a bond if you explained it to him. He thinks an ETF stands for every tomato (is)fresh. He has zero debt and a grade 5 education. He collects rent on a monthly basis that would make the posters on this blog drool and unloaded land in the last decade for millions that he bought decades ago for thousands. In his circle of friends he is also not alone.

#101 Daisy Mae on 09.12.13 at 11:22 am

#88 Maxx: “We already have loads of cyber crime….and credit card companies won’t give customers the choice of disabling the “speedy-greedy-quickly wave your cash away” RFID embedded in the card if they don’t want it. So, if some jerk skims your card, you now have to waste time explaining and justifying what happened to another jerk who couldn’t give a rat’s behind.”

***************

I asked RBC to disable the ‘Finance Tracker’ on my account but they told me it was impossible…blah, blah, blah….

This allows the bank to track your expenses, your savings…your ‘goals’…and any other app you choose to activate and there are 10 or more. Unwittingly giving RBC unlimited access to your personal info.

Can’t win for losing.

#102 HAWK on 09.12.13 at 11:32 am

A sign of the times, …………..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0azojPPRhw

#103 Screwed on 09.12.13 at 11:43 am

Kinda?

If house values decline in any meaningful way, after so many people have gambled so much on a single asset, we’re all kinda screwed. – Garth

We’re being screwed every which way, every day and twice on Sunday in this country.

5 million are living on less than $14,000 p.a. and the public service sector is double and triple dipping in benefits and pensions.

The fat has to get trimmed. Yes, Christy I’m looking at you. Raising your salary immediately after the election and not even holding a seat.

Credo of losers: blame others. — Garth

#104 Ray on 09.12.13 at 11:43 am

Prices keeps rising in the GTA. Any correction will take long time materialize, like a decade, in which the house would have sufficient equity. 5%-10% price correction would be meaningless.

Keep telling yourself that. Hope you do not have all your net worth there. A wealthy person would never do so. — Garth

#105 Smoking Man on 09.12.13 at 11:44 am

#100 Jim Lahey on 09.12.13 at 11:09 am

Not a problem, I quadrupled my loot from real estate sales.

But like everything, even sitting on fence is a bet.

But the day of fat ladies singing at the opera not to far away..

Nother year, but need a good spike first.

#106 Ogopogo on 09.12.13 at 11:47 am

Angry, frustrated realtor alert:

#100 Jim Lahey on 09.12.13 at 11:09 am
#20 Smoking Man

This crash which this blog has been predicting for 5 years has yet to materialize.

Poor, functionally literate realtor. Where did Garth predict a “crash”? If you’re going to attack a real Canadian hero at least provide evidence.

I recently checked out the anti-Garth blog “bobsrealestate”. What a sad bunch of sour grapes. I suspect that as the real estate gloom deepens we will see more such lashing as the clown above and his ilk.

#107 zeeman1 on 09.12.13 at 12:03 pm

” And how did the rich people get that way?

The same way they always have…by screwing the 99%

Actually they gave you a mortgage, and house lust, and let you do it to yourself. — Garth”

Oh, Snap Garth!

And true!

#108 Screwed on 09.12.13 at 12:07 pm

Credo of losers: blame others. — Garth

Have fun paying for the bloated public service sector. Not me. I could become a parasite and suck the teet. Sure, but I just wasn’t raised that way.

#109 Fed-up on 09.12.13 at 12:11 pm

@#102 Nonno Nicola’s Grandson on 09.12.13 at 11:18 am
———————————————————————————–

Bravo per il tuo nonno.

But I am always very weary of those who boast about their vast wealth details without anyone asking for them. It usually turns out that the strong silent types are the ones to watch out for, unlike Smoking Man :p

#110 broadway skytrain on 09.12.13 at 12:18 pm

BC Hydro is looking for a 26 to 40% rate increase by the
end of this decade. The wallet is only so big. Now, did I plugin my IToys?
————————————
an iphone fast charger draws 5W (usb 2.5W) at 5V
if somehow you could have it charging at full rate for 24hrs/day it would cost about 0.07$ per day. Realistically a phone charges about 3-4 hrs/day for a cost of less than a penny/day. so it may going up to 1.5c/day, not really a big deal.

this is close to the savings from unplugging 15x unused chargers, about a penny a day.

or about the same as turning on your oven for 3minutes.

#111 Anonymous coward on 09.12.13 at 12:25 pm

“Keep reading. 40% save nothing. — Garth”

According to page 3 of http://www.payroll.ca/cpadocs/Media/NewsReleases/2013_NPW_MediaPackage.pdf only 12% said they save nothing. 8% said they didn’t want to answer or didn’t know, so it might be as high as 20%. I agree that it is confusing, given that 40% said they spend all or more than their net pay (pg 12), but I would guess it’s more likely the respondents misinterpreted what “spend” meant rather than misinterpreting what “save” meant. But who knows.

#112 M on 09.12.13 at 12:27 pm

@ #77 Vamanos

Ola Hombre, pay attention to Deets :)
The babe wants to date ya. She’s too shy to express it so she pushes ur buttons to check u out :)

#113 broadway skytrain on 09.12.13 at 12:30 pm

correction – missed a decimal place, whoops!

charge iphone for 24hrs under 0.01/day
actual daily charge under 0.001/day

same as elec oven or dryer on for about 20 seconds.

#114 Mister Obvious on 09.12.13 at 12:31 pm

#102 Nonno Nicola’s Grandson

No doubt Grandpa Nonno is a very rich man who, with little formal education, was able capitalize on the times in which he found himself. I do respect that.

But one wonders, if you were take it all away and give the young Nonno a fresh start today in 2013 could he repeat the trick?

The main thrust of this blog is to drive home the point we have entered a different financial world where an entirely different skill set is needed to create and preserve wealth.

Let’s put the young, uncultivated Nonno on minimum wage in the suburbs of present day Vancouver city and see how he fares in real estate.

I’d honestly love to know how that would work out.

#115 Ralph Cramdown on 09.12.13 at 12:33 pm

#90 241A65 — “Bottom line: The average Canadian WON’T save because the average Canadian CAN’T save. They have nothing left after Ottawa and the provinces and the municipalities are done with them.”

Ah yes, the timeless middle-class lament. “I spend $140 a month on cable and internet, $600 to keep the car on the road, $80 for the smartphone, $100 on pet food and the vet, $50 at the coffee shop, $100 dining out and another $100 for booze, $2,000 a year on vacations AND THE DAMN GOVERNMENT TAKES EVERY NICKEL LEFT OVER!”

Seriously, dude. One look at the advertising aimed at the broad middle class tells you all you need to know about where the marginal dollar of consumption is going. And for most households, it goes to goods or services far less necessary than food and shelter.

http://ftalphaville.ft.com/files/2013/09/Screen-shot-2013-09-09-at-3.49.05-PM.png

#116 JonB on 09.12.13 at 12:52 pm

If anyone ever actually ever took the time to read statistical information about Canadian household finances they might not actually get sucked into “group think” chicken little proclamations

The poverty rate of retiring Canadians is a giant success story, never in history have so many retirees lived above the poverty line. CPP, OAS and tax incentives like RRSP’s have had a dramatic impact on the lives of the retiree set.

There is no reason to forecast a dramatic decline in these numbers, even with increases in retiree debt there will not be return to 70’s and 80’s level of retiree poverty

And of course recent news has shown that Canadians savings levels have increased rapidly in the past year, the reent increase in interest rates will naturally see more household money placed into savings.

#117 broadway skytrain on 09.12.13 at 12:54 pm

it goes to goods or services far less necessary than food and shelter.
—————————————-
of course , i see it now, anything left over after food and shelter rightfully belongs to the govt. got to keep those senators livin’ in luxury!

#118 Dorothy on 09.12.13 at 12:59 pm

While I do not doubt that your comments reflect the reality in Toronto (and probably in places such as Vancouver) they are NOT necessarily a reflection of the reality for those of us who live elsewhere.
For example, I live in the North Okanagan. And in my hometown housing prices have fallen, not risen, over the past 4 years. Although prices have bounced back up a little over the past 12 months, the overall trend is down from where it was 4 years ago, despite low mortgage interest rates. So obviously those low interest rates have not contributed to an explosion in house price in this area, and I suspect the same is true in MANY areas outside of Toronto and Vancouver.
As for all those statistics showing that folks are in a financial quagmire caused by housing debt; all I can say is that there have ALWAYS been folks like that, and always will be. But I’m not convinced that it’s any worse than it used to be, because in my own social circle I’m not seeing any evidence of that. Most of my friends COULD lay their hands on $10,000 at short notice if they had to, and are NOT living pay cheque to pay cheque. That doesn’t mean they are rich, or have tons of money in the bank, but they’re not completely financially illiterate either, which is what some of the statistics seem to suggest.
The fact that there ARE families who are struggling financially is not only a function of expensive real estate; it is a reflection of how prices for EVERYTHING have increased over the years, while wages for all but CEO’s have stagnated. And the fact that so many people are entering retirement without sufficient financial resources is a reflection of how companies have reduced or eliminated their pension plans. Many of those same companies have been, and remain, profitable during the same time period that they were getting out of the pension business, and holding wage increases to a minimum, and paid their top management very generous bonuses for keeping their company costs down. I’m not commenting on whether what they did was right or wrong, I’m simply saying “let’s call it like it is”. In other words, it’s an oversimplification to blame all of today’s financial woes on the rising cost of real estate.

#119 JimmyAAA on 09.12.13 at 1:06 pm

#58 Suede on 09.11.13 at 10:54 pm
Prince George – it’s different here… There’s now an Earls. Thank goodness I have somewhere cool to go on a stopover.
===================================

[url=http://www.earls.ca/locations/details/27/prince-george/]There’s been an Earls in PG since 1986.[/url]

#120 broadway skytrain on 09.12.13 at 1:14 pm

just a small example of where your tax $ are going…

a good friend has a small sliver of native blood in his ancestry from the prairies. he walked into a local (BC) band to see about training courses.

almost immediately the cash started flowing, he’s on a second course now, a third ‘crane operator’ is in the works (these are over 20k each). lunches? free. short on cash? a minimal ‘salary’ is also provided while in course. (sounds like working directly for the gov!) . (he has some univ and has worked as a stock broker and currently RE AGENT!!!!)
while i am happy for him, and glad he’ll finally make some good coin, i see this in no way is a justified use of public funds. fully understand why the black mkt exists and why it will only grow.

#121 Canadian Watchdog on 09.12.13 at 1:18 pm

#117 Ralph Cramdown

StatsCan provides consumer expenditures by quintile.

Food expenditures as a percentage of total expenditures. (2011)

Lowest Quintile 28.4% ($4,112)
Second Quintile 20% ($6,331)
Third Quintile 15.4%  ($7,503)
Fourth Quintile 12.7% ($9,112)
Highest Quintile 9.0% ($11,934)

Shelter expenditures as a percentage of total expenditures. (2011) Excluding Household Operation and Household Furnishings & Equipment

Lowest Quintile 63.8% ($9,257)
Second Quintile 36.6% ($11,566)
Third Quintile 29.2% ($14,202)
Fourth Quintile 24.4% ($17,474)
Highest Quintile 17.8% ($23,491)

Let's not foget transportation…

Transportation expenditures as a percentage of total expenditures. (2011)

Lowest Quintile 31.7% ($4,595)
Second Quintile 23.4% ($7,392)
Third Quintile 22.7% ($11,068)
Fourth Quintile 19.8% ($14,189)
Highest Quintile 14.3% ($18,912)

Draw your own conclusions to what 'middle-class' Canadians are paying to get by.

#122 Screwed on 09.12.13 at 1:25 pm

Garth, care to elaborate this further?

If house values decline in any meaningful way, after so many people have gambled so much on a single asset, we’re all kinda screwed. – Garth

You’ve been denying the very same imho over the last couple years. You let on that some in this country would be insulated more than others.

Are you seeing things differently now?

Nope. Those with 100% of their wealth in a house will be very impacted. This is why I preach balance and liquidity. — Garth

#123 realmoneyarner on 09.12.13 at 1:26 pm

“Learn the differenmce between income and assets. — Garth”

One suggestion would be ‘the diff between income and assets is taxation’.

Actually it’s called ‘spending.’ — Garth

#124 bigtown on 09.12.13 at 1:30 pm

A new rule in India bars Indians from transferring money overseas to buy real estate. Apparently the rupee has taken a nose dive and is taking down the real estate market with it.

We have a lot of money from India in the GTA but a fresh supply might not be quite as meaningful as in the near past.

#125 bigtown on 09.12.13 at 1:33 pm

For further reading on India see CNBC real estate section.

Apparently developers are holding UNSOLD INVENTORY and unwilling to drop the price…does this ring a bell?

#126 Bigrider on 09.12.13 at 1:42 pm

A superb post today Garth. A complete, bare bones analysis.

It’s so good that I will spare you my usual dose of humour.

#127 Canadian Watchdog on 09.12.13 at 1:44 pm

#123 bigtown

Apparently the rupee has taken a nose dive and is taking down the real estate market with it.

Former Canadian PM Paul Martin asks: What's going to happen if…? Video

"There will not be a stimulus package big enough to restart our economy."

And that means defaults, because bailing out too big to fail is getting too big to bail.

#128 Westernman on 09.12.13 at 1:52 pm

Vangrrl @ # 21,
“Deserve” has nothing to do with it – get over these childlike concepts…
You put what you have out in the marketplace and it either does well or it doesn’t…
There is no ” Deserve”…

#129 young & foolish on 09.12.13 at 1:55 pm

“it goes to goods or services far less necessary than food and shelter” … Ralph makes a good point … the advertisers are winning.

Do the 1% own a lot of RE? You bet … you’re probably paying to live in it (one way or another). Hey, you are either paying for RE, or it is paying you. But all markets have ups and downs, and today, in Canada, RE is overdone.

One more thing … somebody mentioned this is the number one financial blog in the country … is this true?

Go Garth!

#130 Ray the idiot realtor on 09.12.13 at 1:56 pm

Keep on dreaming Ray and start looking for a real job…. 5 year fixed rate is almost 4%…..a 10% correction in prices might only take 6 months now…

Do the math on mortgage qualifying and you might understand how the market works. Of course you’re an uneducated realtard, so I don’t expect you to figure it out.

#131 Ralph Cramdown on 09.12.13 at 2:12 pm

The plain fact of the matter is that most people will spend more than they could, save less than they could, and die fairly close to broke considering all the money that they earned in their lives. That’s personal choice.

I have a secret plan [pats breast pocket] to create dynastic wealth for my family. I can’t divulge all the details, but it involves spending less than we earn and investing the difference wisely. Based on the spending habits I have observed among the broad middle class, I believe that this plan could be implemented by most families, and that failure to do so represents simple failure of will.

I suspect that this is generally normal in most places with any sort of a government safety net, as opposed to, say, China, where you WILL starve if you don’t save for your retirement. If more people saved and fewer consumed, my returns on investment would be lower and my taxes would be higher. Carry on, grasshoppers!

#132 broadway skytrain on 09.12.13 at 2:21 pm

number one financial blog in the country … is this true?
—————-
r u kidding – gt CRUSHED the comp in the poll. see the big red thingy up top.

#133 Mister Obvious on 09.12.13 at 2:25 pm

#120 Dorothy

“it’s an oversimplification to blame all of today’s financial woes on the rising cost of real estate.”
————————–

It’s not an over simplification. It’s a misunderstanding of cause and effect. Financial conundrums came first which in turn led to residential RE overvaluations.

#134 Mister Obvious on 09.12.13 at 2:35 pm

Here’s something telling. Somebody is anxious to get out of the granite business…

http://tinyurl.com/ms96lv3

#135 Vangrrl on 09.12.13 at 2:37 pm

#64 Devore: Seriously? Anyone with a brain can come to the same conclusion.

#136 Free man! on 09.12.13 at 2:41 pm

Very true per the false sales reports! These shysters could give a rat’s ass about your future with debt enslavement. As Edmonton taxi drivers, Tim Hortons’ coffee shop cashiers, and west edmonton mall toilet janitors began being approved for house loans, I knew it was time for me to sell…Thank God!
I have a friend that’s a seasoned full-time Edmonton realtor and even she speaks (in private) of the upcoming demise in Alberta. She has now sold her own house to move into a rental apartment with her hubby… why should the average home even cost $450,000+ in that freaking cold city when I can pay just as much to be in BC or even lesser in ON and yeah, I get to take a pay cut but at least I get to live a good quality of life than join the herd of AB daydreamers salivating over granite kitchen countertops and stainless steel appliances while drowning in debt. ‘Guess it’s about time these overpriced AB homes with dreamers in ’em get what’s coming.

#137 Vangrrl on 09.12.13 at 2:45 pm

#129: I’d expect such a comment from someone who is obviously far right wing- the world is not just a “marketplace”. A daycare worker earns $18/hr and Don Cherry earns $800,000/yr, for example. I’m sorry but there is no way Cherry’s contribution to society is worth that much. So yes, he does not ‘deserve’ such compensation. That is unfortunately an example of our society’s ‘skewed values’.
I didn’t say many rich people didn’t work hard and invest well to get where they are, but you’re the one being naïve

#138 Screwed on 09.12.13 at 3:14 pm

Nope. Those with 100% of their wealth in a house will be very impacted. This is why I preach balance and liquidity. — Garth

That’s my take as well. What is the perfect balance between debt and liquidity? If the economy sours and the private sector slows down, the liquid saving are quickly depleted.

#139 Westernman on 09.12.13 at 3:27 pm

Vangrrl @ # 137,
Yes the world is a marketplace – a marketplace of personalities,ideas, goods, products, services etc.
Cherry earns 800,000 a year because the marketplace is willing to pay him that for his product – his questionable “personality”… and all the advertising that profits from the masses watching him…
Daycare workers are paid what society deems they are worth…
It’s got jack $hit to do with left or right wing…
It is simply how the world has always worked, the way it works now, and the way it will always work…
Try growing up…it’ll be a lot clearer to you then…

#140 Paolo Di Petta, Mortgage Broker on 09.12.13 at 3:30 pm

@85 Buy? Curious? –

The thing is, immigration isn’t holding up too well either – check the Toronto numbers on my blog: http://mrt.gs/RosyReport

Immigration only happens if there’s jobs, and the best source of jobs are areas with resources (think Alberta).

Ontario’s jobs are mostly based on the housing boom. As that winds down, there’s going to be a lot of job cuts, which is going to slow down spending, which is going to slow down the job market of housing and supporting industries, which will slow immigration…and as you can imagine, it’ll collapse as quickly as it was built.

@98 – Wally
Average prices don’t mean much. Garth talked about it a while back (trailing indicators vs. leading indicators), and I also talked about how “Average Price” is a faulty metric here: http://mrt.gs/5smokescreens

Using stats is all about context – I discuss that here: http://mrt.gs/StatsContext

Try to get an idea of the bigger picture, not the single stat-du-jour that your realtor is using to coerce you into buying before it’s too late…

Thanks for the contribution, but three links to your blog is two too many. — Garth

#141 Nonno Nicola's Grandson on 09.12.13 at 3:30 pm

#116 Mister Obvious

“Let’s put the young, uncultivated Nonno on minimum wage in the suburbs of present day Vancouver city and see how he fares in real estate.”

You sell Nonno short Mr. Obvious. Nonno never toiled for minimum wage and started his own construction company not long after arriving in Canada. He toiled long and hard and has a work ethic that is unmatched. He invested wisely. Granted, times also favoured him but if he were to start over again today, I would not bet against him and success would come his way once again.

#142 2CentsCdn on 09.12.13 at 3:33 pm

#137 Vangrrl
Daycare workers income VS Don Cherrys income

Don bugs me too …. a bit of a goof I think. BUT …. if the CBC feels his brash blue collar old-school ranting brings a couple million extra viewers to Hockey Night In Canada (and I’m sure they did their research) then they will do the math on what they can extra charge for advertising and voila! …. Don is “worth” the $800K they pay him. Mother Theresa and Ghandi (even Jesus for that matter : ) made way less money than Don ….. but they couldn’t attract beer drinkers of people who like to eat at the Keg or Hooters like Don does. He wouldn’t be getting paid that much if he wasn’t producing way MORE for his employers(s). When he doesn’t attract extra people, he will be gone. Not fair ….. just the way the world works.

#143 Form Man on 09.12.13 at 3:43 pm

westernman out in public……..

https://wm.shaw.ca/service/home/~/peter%20pan.jpg?auth=co&loc=en_US&id=12407&part=3

#144 Westernman on 09.12.13 at 4:12 pm

Form Man @ # 143,
Ah, the Admirable Socialist checks in…
What’s the matter? Shouldn’t you be out checking on your far flung construction empire in your squad car?
Did Tim’s finally draw the line on your credit tab and now you have to retire to your basement apartment ( excuse me, your subterrainian command post ) to await the delivery of your next social assistance check?
Life just isn’t fair is it….

#145 Ralph Cramdown on 09.12.13 at 4:19 pm

“A daycare worker earns $18/hr.”

Yep. And that must be about what they’re worth. Starting a daycare doesn’t require a lot of capital, market research, rare talent or anything. Daycare is a major expense and it has to (or ought to) make sense for the lesser paid in a couple to go back to work, pay for daycare and still come out ahead after tax. So the more daycare costs, the fewer clients it makes sense for. I think what we have here is a system that automatically tends towards equilibrium in terms of pay, employed workers and customers.

There’s lots of occupations unlike this — specialist doctors, firefighters, policemen, soldiers…. But the market for daycare workers ought to be about as pure a case of supply and demand as can be envisioned.

#146 Ed Bear on 09.12.13 at 4:34 pm

#139 Westernman “It is simply how the world has always worked, the way it works now, and the way it will always work…”

Well thank glob for the unreasonable men, otherwise we’d still have God Kings and burning at the stake.

#147 Ralph Cramdown on 09.12.13 at 4:44 pm

Here’s a thought about that overtaxed middle class that can’t save.

Single-serve home coffee pod machines.

They started off costing $125-$150, dropped in price after about a year to $100 and stayed there for years, soaking up all the consumers willing to pay that much. Now being discounted to $70, to capture all the price sensitive people for whom $100 was a bit too much. Also, I note that keurig.ca will send you a $20 cheque if you buy a machine and SEND THEM YOUR OLD COFFEE MACHINE (SCRAP VALUE $0.25, MAYBE) VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL USING THEIR POSTAGE STICKER. Environmentalists feel free to calculate how much THAT makes Al Gore cry…

But it ought to be obvious to everyone that this is the Gillette strategy — the money isn’t in the razor ($70 coffeemaker that costs $5/unit FOB China), but in the blades ($0.50 – $0.75/cup coffee that you can make the old fashioned way for $0.10 or less).

Feel free to do your own calculations using your own prices and assumptions, but my brief mental calcs while out walking today came to buyers valuing their leisure time at ~$30/hr after tax or $40/hr pre-tax, and less than ten years ownership is the equivalent of an all-expenses trip to Cuba, or maybe Mexico, for two.

These are not luxury items; they’re mass-market items aimed at the middle class. An income-constrained middle class struggling to make ends meet under a high tax burden would not be buying these.

N.B. In a LOL moment, I saw an ad recently for refillable pods, for people who have bought into the pod lifestyle and discovered that their coffee has gotten a bit too expensive. As for myself, I will not be shipping anyone my used grinder, french press or drip brewer.

Carry on.

#148 Ritchie on 09.12.13 at 4:57 pm

I’m not a doomer, but can this happen in Vancouver or Toronto??

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-09-12/after-las-vegass-housing-crash-fraud-ferraris-and-gun-fights

#149 Westernman on 09.12.13 at 5:00 pm

Ed Bear @ # 146,
Maybe you should look a little closer Edwardo, we pretty much still have these things… my statement stands unscathed…
As a side note I must say how wonderful it must be to be a childlike, isolated, mollycoddled, nieve Canadian…profoundly misinterpreting everything they see…
Truly a nation of sheep governed by wolves…

#150 calgaryPhantom on 09.12.13 at 5:03 pm

Wanted to share this stat from the Statistics canada survey that raised some eyebrows. According to the stats , BC is #1 on social well-being.

Social well-being ranking % *
British Columbia 1 83
Ontario 2 86
Prince Edward Island 3 87
Quebec 4 88
Nova Scotia 5 93
Newfoundland and Labrador 6 97
New Brunswick 7 98
Alberta 8 104
Saskatchewan 9 130
Manitoba 10 135

#151 Mixed Bag on 09.12.13 at 5:09 pm

#147 Ralph Cramdown on 09.12.13 at 4:44 pm

I’ll go you one further and let you know that I’ve got my grandmother’s passed down coffee grinder. And I’m keeping it. Stronger, more durable plastic, and after all this time, back in style.

The iron? Although half the ironing power came from its weight on the fabric, the wire would heat up, probably not a good thing.

#152 bigrider on 09.12.13 at 5:22 pm

#116 mister obvious – #141 Nonno Nicola’s Grandson.

No way nonno or any of these other mega rich Italian land owners, construction company founders etc. could repeat their success if it were all taken away from them and they had to start over.

To add, a high school diploma 40 years ago got you a real shot of becoming a CEO verses an MBA today which struggles at finding any gainful employment.

The wind was in nonno’s back all the way along these past 40 or so years, while today it would blow him all the way back to Italy.

#153 Nosty the Vladiator on 09.12.13 at 5:36 pm

#104 HAWK — Excellent link, and it ties in with Gun control, Agenda 21, Monsanto plus other BS which is happening right under our noses. A cancer almost always grows from within, destroying the exterior — Seizure of Wealth and Here.

As usual, sheeple are being shepherded away from the simple reality of life. — “Democracy is the road to socialism.” and “From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs”. Both quotes from Karl Marx. Obama and Soros are well read on Marx. #136 Free man! — “These shysters could give a rat’s ass about your future with debt enslavement.” — See above and abolutely correct.

SMan — Some trash talk 4 U! (Read the heads) — RE and Mtgs., San Francisco Yuan centre? Joke, Israel and NSA, 9-11, Syrian pipeline. Carrier Killer, Israel’s CWMD + nukes at Dimona and McCain Bribe. Whoopseedoodoo!

#154 espressobob on 09.12.13 at 5:37 pm

#147 Ralph Cramdown

Great point on the pods! Actually there known as K-cups and the product that goes in ones mug tastes like something you expect from China. YUK!!!

Since I work in the industry, it would be better for most to consider ‘Melitta’ filters, a cheap ‘braun’ grinder and check out the local roasters for whole bean product. Way cheaper & tastes way better than that pod-cup crap!

For what its worth, after 24 years in ‘foodservice’ I’m more confused than you! Cheers.

#155 tkid on 09.12.13 at 5:41 pm

Keurig has always offered refillable pods. The rest, not so much. But I do not have the time in the am to wait for the french press or drip brewer. Plus the Keurig turns itself on and off.

#156 Marshy on 09.12.13 at 5:51 pm

Westernman @149

naive …. you’re welcome

#157 JimmyAAA on 09.12.13 at 6:35 pm

#139 Westernman on 09.12.13 at 3:27 pm
Vangrrl @ # 137,
<<>>
It’s got jack $hit to do with left or right wing…
It is simply how the world has always worked, the way it works now, and the way it will always work…
Try growing up…it’ll be a lot clearer to you then…

==================================
In 1971, a bunch of boneheads decided to found Greenpeace – they should have grown up. What an epic fail.

In 1987, a sorta western protest party called Reform decided to become a broad based NATIONAL party jumping into an already crowded 3 party system. What an epic fail – they should have grown up.

Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, yadda, yadda, yadda……

I get capitalism. Its sorta works. So does socialism actually (and better most of the time – and not in some utopia land, real countries – like almost all of Northern Europe) Ill tell you what does not work – total capitalism or total socialism.

But telling me to grow up and face reality. Screw you. Reality will one day bite your kind in the face. Maybe not you specifically, but your ilk. When the anarchists come, you are the kind they burn first. And believe me , this so called smoking man/westerman kind of world is dying.

The world has always worked the way you two perceive it because most people were were too ignorant and lacked information about how bad off they really were. The are still dumb but they no longer lack that information. 1 generation, maybe 2. It better change – or capitalists will die, count on it. You have gotten too greedy.

#158 Form Man on 09.12.13 at 7:16 pm

3144 westernchild

shoot, I can’t seem to get that link to work. Too bad, as it is very amusing. Sorry to disappoint you………

#159 Daisy Mae on 09.12.13 at 7:29 pm

#145 Ralph: “Daycare is a major expense and it has to (or ought to) make sense for the lesser paid in a couple to go back to work, pay for daycare and still come out ahead after tax.”

*****************

Yes. An economist years ago stated that it wasn’t economically viable for a wife/mother to work outside the home if her wage wasn’t substantial, after factoring in work-related expenses such as wardrobe/ transportation/convenience foods and so on.

#160 Westernman on 09.12.13 at 8:16 pm

Form Man @ # 158,
My expectations of you are so low that you couldn’t possibly disappoint me…
And as for you, JimmyAAA @ # 157, people like me always win and people like you end up in basements scarfing McDonalds crap…
It’s like pitting a Viking against a dreamer – no contest…

#161 JimmyAAA on 09.12.13 at 9:07 pm

#160 Westernman on 09.12.13 at 8:16 pm
Form Man @ # 158,
My expectations of you are so low that you couldn’t possibly disappoint me…
And as for you, JimmyAAA @ # 157, people like me always win and people like you end up in basements scarfing McDonalds crap…
It’s like pitting a Viking against a dreamer – no contest…

====================================
hahhahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhahahahahaha

I will meet you anywhere. I will gladly talk to you face to face and debate you on anything.
I am successful – I am one of the lucky ones with a good job, good pension (nothing to do with the civil service- for all your dumb ass haters, although I happen to think that it is meaningless), stable long term relationship, money in the bank, own a house (again – it actually isn’t important) and live a balanced, normal (whatever that is) lifestyle. We get to travel, don’t have health worries, life is good. I’ll bet I can run 10 kms a hell of lot faster than you can too. I’m 43 and people tell me I look like I’m 30. You probably don’t.

I am also aware of how fragile it all is. And mostly because of dumb people and the people like you who take advantage of it. You have snowed everyone for 30+ years (since Reagan/ Thatcher) and you have at best another 15- 20 years left. Maybe a little longer in Western Canada if the resources (and demand) hold out.

I’m a winner because I was smart and I got lucky in two ways – I got a stable union job in a company that has made money for 20+ years now. And I don’t have to beat up on other people to get it.

And I am smart enough to not piss it all away. To people like you. Whom I well and truly hate. Despise, would be a better word.

But anyways I would love to meet you, if only to be to identify you so I can point you out to mob. And they will come. If you refuse to leave some scraps, eventually they have no hope left and then you are done.

I like McDonalds. Especially Chicken McNuggets, and I know where they come from. I would also gladly pay an extra $4 for them if it meant the worker was getting a better wage. But I am in the minority there.

#162 Westernman on 09.12.13 at 9:59 pm

Jimmy AAA @ 161,
My, what a vicious bitter little fellow you are …. looks like I hit the nail right on the head…
Don’t worry chump, I won’t leave a thing for you and your “mob”…
I’ll bet you have had quite a bit of experience running, haven’t you? You had better learn to calm down or you’ll have a stroke…
Anyway, don’t let anything but fear and good judgement stop you…

#163 JimmyAAA on 09.13.13 at 12:05 am

#162 Westernman on 09.12.13 at 9:59 pm
Jimmy AAA @ 161,
My, what a vicious bitter little fellow you are …. looks like I hit the nail right on the head…
Don’t worry chump, I won’t leave a thing for you and your “mob”…
I’ll bet you have had quite a bit of experience running, haven’t you? You had better learn to calm down or you’ll have a stroke…
Anyway, don’t let anything but fear and good judgement stop you…

===================================
You are quite wise. In a notice someone’s weakness and profit from it. That much I can tell. A bit a troll as well. Your record here is quite clear in that as well.

And the truth – I could never win with garbage like you. You take too much pleasure in watching other people lose. Even if it means you drag every thing through the mud.

I notice you really just gloss over most points and only go for weak points. Quite a strength of your part. Again the wisdom I already noted. But believe me, you may not get yours, because down deep, you are the bigger coward. Bullies always are. You have strength to the max – I sure. But you have zero toughness. I know your type – pretty much resemble a weasel.

Im not a believer in Karma, sometimes POS do win all the time. But I am believer in that the world is changing. Basically bigger muscles are getting tossed over the side. Men like you are on their last legs. Rome will fall. Like I said the weak are more connected today than ever before. Hopefully you can opiate or dumb them done them for one more generation or so. But in the end, your type will be evolved out of our DNA.

I still am trying to see you as a winner in all this. Mostly I just find an erudite writer/debater with little points actually. Kind of like an asshole Justin Trudeau. Good at saying nothing, but you’re not nice like him.

#164 Jiminy on 09.13.13 at 2:07 am

Don Cherry doesn’t work in the market plsace, Don works for CBC, a Government body.

#165 Greed is God on 09.13.13 at 12:11 pm

Hi Garth,

What happened to my comment? Did it not pass muster?

No comment received. — Garth

#166 KIm on 09.15.13 at 7:47 am

Have a look at Stats Canada graph
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/13-605-x/2012005/c-g/c-g02-eng.htm
It shows data for USA and Canada calculated on the same basis.