Huh?

PJT-RealEstate-4.jpg

Another seven-figure sale in Toronto.

Discouraged and tired of rejection, over 53,000 unemployed Canadians stopped looking for work last month. That is what economists called discouraged workers, which means they just vanish from the unemployment stats.

So, the labour force shrank. And of those still in it, 45,000 others lost their jobs. Well, actually a lot more than that were punted, but the creation of other jobs (mostly in the service sector) took up some slack. The unemployment rate is the highest in 11 years, and since October close to a half million net jobs have gone. The lion’s share of those were full-time, in manufacturing and construction.

In fact last month alone 18,000 more construction workers were idled – calling into question bullish news of late about big jumps in housing starts. Since October 120,000 construction jobs have vanished, as have 218,000 manufacturing positions.

That’s about equal to all the jobs that exist in Edmonton or Ottawa.

And how does this compare to the States? Last month the US shed 247,000 workers, which is less on an overall population basis than Canada. Actually, our job loss numbers were twice as scary.

Oh yeah, and our job loss figures would have almost doubled again last month were it not for 35,000 people who became ‘self-employed.’

You may be aware that discouraged, unemployed people can fairly easily become ‘self-employed’ if they have access to a car, a loan and a laptop. Government benefits still flow, even if self-employment income does not.

I mention this to put into some context the issue of consumer spending, consumer credit and the recovery. In Canada the labour force participation rate is now just over 67%, similar to the 65.7% rate in the States. Both countries currently have millions of long-term unemployed.

Snapshot: The city of Stratford in SW Ontario, home of the auto rust belt. Population is about 35,000, and the latest Stats Can report says the area now has 14,200 people out of work. How is this so different from Detroit, or Flint?

But, as you know, Canada has a bustling housing market, rising levels of consumer spending, increases in housing starts, recovering car sales and apparently enough surplus household cash lying around for Ontario and BC to slap a new sales tax on everything (including real estate) starting in a few months.

While the US real estate market declined another 18% in the past year, 20 million families are in negative equity and 19 million homes sits empty, our average national house price has hit a new record. In Toronto’s Leaside last week (30-foot lots, 70-year-old houses, no garages), a home listed at $919,000 went for more than $1.2 million. Mortgage lending has exploded enough to put Canadians into more debt than ever before. And the orgy continues.

Meanwhile mainline economists point to consumer spending, retail sales and the real estate market as ‘evidence’ we are in (or near) recovery. This one, they say, will be led by household spending, not by corporate profits, commodity prices or business investing. Maybe even led by fools.

Hard to see how all this can happen when in a single month 53,000 people stopped looking for jobs, 45,000 more lost their jobs, and 35,000 made up jobs. Yet even with the official job loss number of just 45,000, we were in economic free fall compared to the States.

I’m just a dumb country boy. Maybe you can explain this.

Sure hope somebody can.

jobless rate

137 comments ↓

#1 $fromA$ia "Garths Nugget Boy" on 08.09.09 at 10:59 pm

“Another seven-figure sale in Toronto!”- Garth

Get over it Garth.

Housing correction(price drop) or Housing correction through inflation?

I think its time you come to terms with the mass stupidity. Half of my money awaits a correction in housing and the other awaits inflation while in hard assets. Maybe you can put some sentences together and make up a plausable forecast for the RE Market.

Again, Housing correction(price drop) or Housing correction through inflation?

#2 squidly77 on 08.09.09 at 11:00 pm

well a lot of people have acquired much paper wealth due to canadas housing bubble
trouble is..the real estate market is about to take a lot of canadians out at the knees..its pay back time
listen to the dreamer followed by 5 seconds of reality
get rich the easy way..buy real estate

#3 squidly77 on 08.09.09 at 11:02 pm

as schiff said in my link..the only way to become a millionaire through real estate is to start out as a billionaire

#4 hal smith on 08.09.09 at 11:13 pm

Garth, it’s so simple . The government lies and spins and gives away money and assures everyone that everything is ok and people believe that.

#5 Crash on 08.10.09 at 12:13 am

It’s like a game of musical chairs with very few actual participants. Basically, homeowners using their paper equity to buy more upscale digs. But one the music stops, they’ll be holding the bag. Or put another way, fools selling houses to each other.

#6 Mike Hunt on 08.10.09 at 12:25 am

I’ll explain it for you: the Canadian government will do WHATEVER it takes to inflate the economy back to growth using cheap money and continued low-lending standards. This will continue to cause “idiots” with little or no money to buy homes for ridiculously higher and higher values.

When these “idiots” can no longer afford the payments and are under-water, our government will somehow cause this pain to be transferred from these “idiots” to the rest of us (the REAL “idiots”) – perhaps again by taking another $74 billion of crappy loans off the books of our wonderful banks like they did last year without asking anyone, which will again cause our banks to open the idiot-lending taps again.

Meanwhile, everyone else who tries to be fiscally prudent and stay long cash will see said cash become worth less and less.

So, the big question is: who’s the idiot, the guy taking all the free money or guys like me who are debt-free? I sure ain’t feeling all that smart, I gotta tell ya. I have been renting for years waiting for a “correction” in housing that just won’t come. During that time, I have seen many of my colleagues reap enormous (tax free) gains from buying and selling houses.

One of my good friends started about a half-dozen years ago or so with a condo he bought for about $250k and sold it for just under $400k a few years later. He took that cash and bought a semi for $550k that he just sold it for $900k, three years later. Now, he’s taking that cash and is doubling down for a HUGE $2 million house. He even decided to take some cash off the table and got a $1.5 million mortgage for this one – his rationale: “why not, they’re practically giving the money away for free!”

Do the math – he made about $500k tax free in about 6 years – that’s like making $1 million in our tax-bracket, while not having to pay rent either!

I feel like such a shmuck!

#7 Keith in Calgary on 08.10.09 at 12:26 am

There is no logical explanation for the irrational exhuberance of people’s behaviour during financial bubbles except for the term……….”suspension of reality”.

Unfortunately, they will soon find that they cannot suspend the mortgage payment, credit card payment and car loan payment when their employer has suspended their paycheques.

What we are witnessing in some parts of the country is the last dying gasp of the bull that has been pierced multiple times by the matador’s sword, before it falls down and dies a painful and gruesome bloody death, in the arena in which you and I sit. And it always does……each and every time, all the time, without fail.

I paid attention during history class.

#8 BobbyV on 08.10.09 at 12:30 am

The underlying fundamentals do NOT support any real estate boom or increased consumer/retail spending. There will be a lot of people caught holding the bag come late 2009. This is a game of musical chairs and when the music stops, there will be unprecedented losses.

#9 DW on 08.10.09 at 12:38 am

I have encouraged my daughter who lives just outside of London ,England to refrain from buying into any real estate and rent for now; although Uk real estate mas dipped, she found a nice loft to rent for about $2,000 per month and will be moving in soon with her husband. In the next year or two they hope to return to Canada and so she asked me to keep an eye out for a loft in the distillery district. ( Lofts are very popular these days. ) Just ask Mr Lamb!

After learning about the state of the economy through Garths advice, it is a wait and see policy and I’m glad she can see the reason for not jumping in like so many young people today. ( She has reasoned that the banks here in Canada are not as reckless in lending compared to the states). I used to share her view but when you hear about the lending policy that is taking place right now I shake my head in disbelief at the foolishness of the big bank lenders.

Fortunately she has the commom sense to avoid the trap that is set and lets wait and see what the future holds. Hopefully the “slide” will bring in affordable homes once again, making available more disposable income to kick start the ecomomy.

#10 Nostradamus Le Mad Vlad on 08.10.09 at 1:03 am

“And the orgy continues. . . . Maybe you can explain this.”

Caligula was notorious for the orgies that he was involved with, almost as bad as people who were fighting each other when Cabbage Patch Dolls were selling like hot cakes.

Hmmmm. Was a CPD of Caligula ever released? Now there’s a marketing idea!
***
Sooner or later, folks will come to the realization — namely, by hitting a concrete wall at top speed — that things are nowhere near as hunky-dory as they once knew.

Then the tears will flow freely, as they are overloaded with debts to pay and little or no work to look for.
——
Here’s a couple of good ‘uns for y’all! —
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_pCDyiFUv9XU/Sn5lUAsjFDI/AAAAAAAAFdQ/YWyVYXsVW3M/s1600-h/67626_600.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_pCDyiFUv9XU/Sn5lAFCABtI/AAAAAAAAFco/7kHvEIUF6iY/s1600-h/67590_600.jpg
——
Seems like President’s Choice will be the only player in this market. —
http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/citizen%E2%80%99s-bank-shutting-down-free-chequing-accounts/
——
#103 PTDBD on 08.09.09 at 4:47 pm — “Geithner wants Debt Limit jacked sky high”

More to the point, he may be in the running for Bernanke’s job when he quits. Ohhhh, be still my beating nookular brain!
——
Deflation temporarily rules the roost. —
http://www.shtfplan.com/marc-faber/credit-deleveraging-vs-money-supply-why-deflation-wins-temporarily-at-least_08092009
——
The evidence is clear why there was so much crowd trouble following the election in Iran (link follows). Interesting that Farsi is the official Iranian language, yet most protestors were holding placards written in English.

Nothing like a good photo-op for the m$m, wot?! Comment from wrh.com.
http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=102918&sectionid=351020104

“I think the operation was called off when “someone” pointed out that BBC was running mislabeled photos of pro-Ahmadinejad rallies and that the flag being handed to the protesters was the flag of the Shah! NOBODY alive before 1979 wants a return to the rule of the Shah!

“At that point the illusion of a popular uprising collapsed.”
——
Back To The Future for a few ticks! — http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14705

“. . . an email sent by a listener. “I work at the National Institutes of Health and we received an email about the upcoming International Swine Flu Conference that will be occurring in Washington, D.C. Aug 19 – Aug 21, 2009,” the listener writes. “They’re talking about mass fatality management and continuity of government. They’re going to hit us with a massive biological false flag attack.”
——
To Google or not to Google; THAT is the question!
http://curtmaynardsnewestblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/google-is-worst-search-engine.html

#11 davers on 08.10.09 at 1:23 am

Enough people in Vancouver may have finally gotten the message. A local realtor who posts weekly stats shows that sales this week were just over half of what they were last week.

The fact that almost 50% fewer homes were sold this week either indicates a big change, or half the buyers went on vacation.

#12 Bailing in B.C. on 08.10.09 at 1:34 am

#110 Reg on 08.09.09 at 9:53 pm
In this post, you allude to the tax rebate for home improvements. Everyone should know this… it hasn’t been passed by parliament yet. It is on the table to be passed in the fall. It is my opinion that times being what they are, and politicians being…well, politicians… you best not taking anything for granted. What happens if it doesn’t pass? I know politicians are saying it is a given that it will pass, but when is anything a ‘given’ anymore?

I just thought I would copy this onto this new thread for those who didn’t get to the end of the last thread. Is this really true? Man alive, some people are gonna be pissed if they don’t pass it.

#13 HalifaxFamily on 08.10.09 at 1:51 am

Garth, a lot of the housing craziness is going on everywhere…. do you have any news articles or stats for the Nova Scotia area? Halifax?

#14 mino3 on 08.10.09 at 1:54 am

Does StatsCan provide an equivalent to the U6 unemployment rate down south? The one that includes all the unemployed people that the headline rate excludes.

Just curious what the real unemployment rate is.

#15 Future Expatriate on 08.10.09 at 1:57 am

Crystal ball (what the SMART money is doing behind the scenes) says “All will be revealed within two months.”

After the USD and domino crash worst-case scenario.

Possibly sooner.

#16 kc on 08.10.09 at 2:04 am

Garth, it is very easy to explain…. Don’t you know we are in Canada, and it is different here compared to the rest of the world??? We are sheltered beyond belief with numbskulls who follow the herds down the golden road. Buy new houses, fill them with new shit you didn’t need and just sign on the dotted line… pretty simple really. If any person in our govt. had any balls and spoke the truth to the flock we would get anarchy ….

How are your carrots growing? My garden is doing fine thanks.

#17 Tony on 08.10.09 at 4:18 am

Nice to see that Canada didn’t lie about the job losses. In America i expect the figure to be revised upwards to around 400,000 job losses for last month. I expect America will eventually have to tell the truth about the monthly job losses and let the stock markets collapse. Cheat to win only works short term.

#18 somecatchphrase on 08.10.09 at 5:09 am

Grim economic indicator:

“Death in the Recession: More Bodies Left Unburied”

Have economic times gotten so bad that some of the dead are going unburied? Several large counties across the country are experiencing unprecedented increases in the number of unclaimed deceased — not only the dead people who could not be identified, were indigent or were estranged from their family, but also apparently the growing number whose loved ones simply cannot afford to bury or cremate them. The phenomenon has increased costs for local governments, which have to dispose of the bodies.

Time magazine, Friday, August 7, 2009

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1914780-1,00.html

#19 DG on 08.10.09 at 6:29 am

Anyone else think that the only people spending money right now are those who don’t have any? My wife and I are having our best year ever income-wise, but at the same time we’re still always on the look out for ways to reduce our monthly expenses, not increase them.

Our friends have finally given up on telling us to buy a house, but only because they think we’re clinically insane and can’t be helped.

#20 David Bakody on 08.10.09 at 6:50 am

The graft represents the New Home Speculation Buying Business. After all Garth next year homes will double in value or even triple when the government pays the banks to lend money and the Banks in turn flood TV and Radio with adds ” Come in to-day and we will pay you 5% bonus for every $100,000 you take out at 2.5% on a VRM …. spend as you like perhaps even buy a second home for investment. OMG we are doomed. Wait a moment maybe just maybe the government knows ET is en route from the Planet “Money Bags” and is going to pay the bill, all the bills for everyone and save the world. yeah right!

#21 miketheengineer on 08.10.09 at 7:29 am

Nostradamus #10 Post

Thanks for the “flu” articles….very informative.

If that influenza outbreak in the fall is going to be that bad, you better have stock of goods in your home for more than 2 weeks…the article mentions disruptions of several weeks…

In case you have not done it yet, make sure you have some stock of canned goods on hand….minimum for 2 weeks. 90% of the population only has about 3 days worth of food. If 50% of the population is down with the flu, like it said in the article in post #10, food deliveries to the food stores will go down, or be wiped out. Same goes for medicine. Make sure you have some in your house, especially if you have kids.

Good Luck to all.

#22 Onemorething on 08.10.09 at 7:31 am

Real Unemployment Numbers will never be either published or likely calculated properly for Canada.

It will basically along with under water RE owners show up in the real world shortly. You wont have to read about it!

It’s a buyers market in Kuala Lumpur right now. After a week in West Van and Deep Cove and another two in Whistler, I am convinced that people are absolutely insane about the real world.

While it disappoints me how stupid Canadians seem to be about RE it only drives home my validation that some of us are on the right side of the play.

The house I’m renting was listed last year for 6.5M MYR or about $2M CAD. They took it off the market after no offers at 4.5M or $1.3 CAD. The bubble in KL was a light one but it has hit like a big one.

Again, back to Canada, no correction occurred in place of a Equities Bubble in the US happening same time as the first leg down was going to occur.

Canada is likely the only country in the world that did not change to the negative in RE. It can only mean a world of hurt when we begin the next nose dive coming in the fall.

I agree 1000% with Garth, so many will be under water, it will be obvious to everyone around you. It cant be hidden by the ponzi’s in Government, RE and the banks anymore.

#23 Jason on 08.10.09 at 7:39 am

I just love Garth’s continuous use of the word Orgy. Makes me laugh every time. Thanks Garth!

“I’m just a dumb country boy.”

Don’t forget, country folks can survive ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4s0nzsU1Wg

#24 j from campbellville on 08.10.09 at 7:49 am

Garth the answers are all simple. In the new economy emotion trumps logic. Many people in our society have no concept of reality and paying there way (no common sense)the saying I use all to often these days is ” you can’t fix stupid”
Anthow there are a few that get it and I’m happy to say the new garden is doing well as are the fruit bushes and trees however no squirrel pens yet (Next Project)
Happy bunker building Garth

#25 DG on 08.10.09 at 7:55 am

@DW (#9): We are currently renting a loft in the Distillery District. I wouldn’t buy in this building, not just because of the current market craziness, but because the quality of construction is pretty terrible.

However, it is a great spot to rent. We will likely be moving within the next year. Our landlords are the nicest people, so let me know if you are interested in finding out more for your daughter. Not sure how to provide my contact info, since I don’t want to make my details public, but I’m sure we can figure something out.

#26 Samantha on 08.10.09 at 8:01 am

Consumerism isn’t dead – it’s at the “last call” stage. People are loading up before closing time.

This real estate feeding frenzy will continue until those purchasing become one of our rapidly growing class of freelance workers.

Some people can understand a situation without direct experience and avoid it, while others need to step in it and live the experience without learning anything from it.

Job loss? No big surprise our stats are worse than USA. Our major trading partner is in trouble so who will sustain unemployment casualties first? We will because we rely on their business for over 80% of our trade. It is not a co-dependent situation. We are dependent upon them. That’s why (and this has been said before) what happens in the USA is very relevant and important to our situation here.

So, the “self-employed” label has been trotted out – nice designation for someone who is not working and off EI benefits.

Maybe the hippies were right and co-ops are the answer. Back to the micro economy – a tinker, a tailor, a candlestick maker. Self-sufficiency within a community committed to group survival.

Some of those McMansions would make nice communes.

Going to go dig out my sandals.

Peace, Love.

#27 Makeorbreak on 08.10.09 at 8:13 am

http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/07/real_estate/expensive_homes_miss_recovery.fortune/index.htm

#28 Munch on 08.10.09 at 8:27 am

It’s all due to human stupidity!

Why ae we so scared to admit that?

It’s stupidity, and a dose of illusion.

Let’s call a spade a spade!

Generally speaking, people are stupid, so let’s stop searching for “deeper” answers.

Stupid!

There, I said it!

Munch

#29 dontcallmeshirley on 08.10.09 at 9:02 am

Garth,

The reason house prices still rise, despite increasing unemployment, is because more than 90% of the working population are still employed.

Most of the unemployed, new and carryover, were probably renters. The current unemployment levels aren’t nearly enough to bring house prices down in the urban centres.

Everyone else,

Go buy a stock, flip it by tomorrow for a gain, you’ll feel a lot better. Don’t be intellectual about it, go with the flow. If it’s you against the world, the world wins in a KO every time. Of course it’s inflation…so what?

#30 Downsized and Delighted on 08.10.09 at 9:16 am

I would venture to guess that the communites where the job layoffs are the greatest are not seeing real estate sales like the ones in your articles Garth. And I imagine that there are no sales at all in those areas – so the price reductions wouldn’t be factored in.

Even during the great depression there were many groups of people basically unaffected. Clearly, the people purchasing now are unaffected by the recession.

Whether they will be affected in the future is the question, and to what extent? The fact that we had a warning last winter when the market nosedived allowed MANY developers/builders/property owners to bail out. I’m guessing the people at the highest risk are already out of the market, but what do I know? I do know that it is a terrible year for tomatoes Garth.

#31 dd on 08.10.09 at 9:18 am

Ask Mark Carey … he said that recession is over.

#32 Gord In Vancouver on 08.10.09 at 9:20 am

Don’t be surprised if all of Canada’s provincial premiers lobby heavily to EXTEND the time range of current EI payments. Most of them (Alberta, BC) will be doing this to keep local real estate markets from crashing once EI payments expire, not because they are compassionate.

#33 Paul on 08.10.09 at 9:22 am

It’s easy to explain. There’s an election looming. Your old boss is doing exactly the same the got him the win last time. “Everything is fine in Canada”. Don’t worry. I guess we should have bought stocks when he said it was a good time to buy. He was right.

#34 VOODOO on 08.10.09 at 9:59 am

Canadian banks are TIGHT, and this could very well be the main reason real estate prices are buoyed. Also different cities have different levels of ‘bubbleness’.

Here in Ottawa, an average rent is ~$1600/mo.

The average house is ~$300,000.

This is a 15.6 ratio (house price divided by yearly rent).

Historically, 10 to 14 has been accepted as normal (so Ottawa is slightly bubbly).

4 years ago in New York, you can see the ratio was 20 to 25: http://nyhousingbubble.blogspot.com/2005/08/rent-to-buy-ratio-out-of-whack.html

What’s the ratio in your city?

#35 smw on 08.10.09 at 10:02 am

Another favorite economic fairy tale is that unemployment is a LAGGING indicator and the numbers are already a month old by the time they get out, there fore should be taken with a grain of salt.

In most downturns, and more specifically one in which is tettering on depression, it takes more than 30 days after you get the axe to find gainful employment.

#36 tjmikey on 08.10.09 at 10:04 am

I wonder if we are on our way to some type of government controlled/backed mortgage lender.

Some hybrid version of Fannie Mae.

Take the banks out of mortgage lending by creating a seperate financial system that has nothing to do with Bank of Canada rates.

It may be a way to keep mortgage rates low without a tie to the dollar, bond rates, etc.

#37 young & foolish on 08.10.09 at 10:07 am

Mike Hunt has a good point ….. government will essentially “spread the pain” and tax the savers to help out the over indebted … Ha!
Trying to escape is like being in a crowd during a mass riot …. good luck!

#38 Devil's Advocate on 08.10.09 at 10:08 am

No life is so grand as it is in La La Land.

#39 Dean on 08.10.09 at 10:29 am

The housing market really is helping the unemployed right now. If you can’t afford your house you always have the option to sell it. If you’re underwater and houses aren’t selling you are trapped. They are now in a deflationary spiral in RE in the US, and as you can see nobody is buying regardless of the bargains.

The government here dodged a big bullet by submerging interest rates. It has kept the party going and really has softened the recession in a big way. Even if you lose your job you can always sell your house and rent or down size.

So what’s the problem? The problem is we didn’t fix anything. We’ve maxed out our collective Visa card and the government has decided the solution is to lower our interest rate for a while and raise our limit.

#40 Seanmhair on 08.10.09 at 10:44 am

Geesh Garth. I was hoping that you could explain what’s happening…because I am completely befuddled by the numbers/news. I just don’t get how, with jobs evaporating, rampant consumerism reigns. But it appears that the “Green shoots”, “Recession is over”, “Buy now at historic low rates!!”, has thoroughly permeated the gray matter of the sheeple? Witness Nanos latest poll:

Nanos National Poll – Economy slides as an issue of concern http://bit.ly/17It0i

Far as I’m concerned, the government, and their media choir boys, leading the lambs to slaughter should be hung out to dry.

PO’ed IN Windsor.

#41 jess on 08.10.09 at 10:52 am

evicted from debasing the currency or just a thifty mouse

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/Oddities/090807/K080706AU.html

#42 POL-CAN on 08.10.09 at 10:56 am

Rumour via ZeroHedge…

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/daily-highlights-81009

Australia’s central bank signaled it will start raising interest rates.

I seem to remember that Australia’s RE bubble has not burst just yet (very similar to the Canadian situation).

#43 ralph on 08.10.09 at 10:59 am

Adding this to the high unemployment figures and things could get much worse then stated.

Alberta drought worst since 1930s

Herds culled as cattlemen in northwest throw in the towel

Drought ravages Sask. farms

#44 Larry on 08.10.09 at 11:01 am

What amazes me about the real estate bubble regardless of whre it occurs is that everyone thinks it’s different in their area. Here are 3 quotes that sum up the current bubble very nicely.
“In the old days people worked to pay for their house, nowadays a house pays you not to work”
“It’s very difficult to convince people to change their ways when their livliehood depends on it”
“This will not end well”

#45 Denis on 08.10.09 at 11:02 am

A New Trick For Stemming Inflation? The Fed Now Pays Banks Interest For Masses of Excess Reserves: http://bit.ly/FnBfr

So that’s where all the floods of printed money is ending up? I was wondering what was keeping the USD so strong and why it hasn’t crashed yet? It’s not consumer confidence in the US Economy or the USD when people typically run to Gold and Silver for safety, its the banks hording it and getting higher interest payments from the Fed than what they would make from lending at historically low interest rates to consumers and businesses. (Keep in mind this is the US economy … Not ours) I’m wondering if this is the same in Canada…

#46 JeffinPickering on 08.10.09 at 11:03 am

Carrots are looking good, cucumbers are doing well, lettuce has been going great, tomatoes are starting to come along now, peppers are good, cabbage is good, squash good, etc. Almost time for some pickling.
And, just in case, there’s a few rabbits hanging around seeing if we’ll make a mistake and let them into the veggies, which is good news if things get really bad… mmm….rabbit.

Man, it is going to be one ugly, ugly fall/winter here in southern Ontario once the housing craze dies, the temps start to dip, rates rise, and people realize jobs are gone forever.

That being said, I have a question.
Right now, cash and debt retirement are king. Once inflation starts to go nuts, that will end…so, question is: at what point in the inflationary fallout with rising interest rates will it make sense to trade that cash in for something else, and trade it in for what?

#47 DrC on 08.10.09 at 11:04 am

@#10; @#21
Umm, relax guys? H1N1 has proven to be a bit more infective, but no more deadly than typical seasonal epidemic influenza. Australia has stopped testing because everyone who comes through the door has H1N1. Fatalities are mostly in people with pre-existing conditions – diabetes, COPD, heart failure – just like “normal” influenza. Sure, prepare for a Black Swan (swine flu recombines to something more deadly, some nutbag releases recombinant smallpox) but as far as swine flu goes, get immunized (when available) and wash your hands frequently. The alcohol handrub is good for that too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic
PS Immunize your kids for everything they are eligible for; “A study of 37,000 children in South Africa who received a pneumococcal vaccine (PncCV) found that they were on average one-third less likely to suffer viral pneumonia following infections with seven different respiratory viruses, as well as being protected from bacterial pneumonia afterward.[197]”

#48 France Highlin on 08.10.09 at 11:04 am

Unreasonable Expectation

“CIBC chief economist Avery Shenfeld said the chief driver that has seen the TSX recoup nearly 50 per cent of its losses since its March 9 low has been government intervention rather than real economic growth.

“The extreme fears of a second Great Depression were lifted as governments showed tremendous resolve in tackling elements of the crisis, even at great expense to the public purse,” Shenfeld wrote.

However, “we’re getting closer to the end of that source of equity momentum” and the next leg of the rally will have to come from improved corporate earnings, he added.

Whatever happens, it won’t happen quickly.

“To expect us to really completely have turned everything around within 10 months is just an unreasonable expectation,” Watson said.

“It’s taken years for us to get this bad, and it’s going to take years for us to fix it.”

#49 Chris L. on 08.10.09 at 11:08 am

Guelph – 584 COLLEGE AVE W MLS# 93085 [listed 165k, multiple offers, sold for 211k – 46k OVER ASKING a full 28% more than original asking price]

“Renovator’s Delight!
This home bas been stripped down to the bare walls and floors. No kitchen and only a partial bathroom. A blank slate for your completion. 3 bedrooms up and a large unfinished basement, plus a good sized yard and good neighbourhood.”

If you compare to other houses finished top to bottom, move in condition at 235k (assuming it only takes 20k to add flooring throughout, a kitchen, and bath floor and fix up the backyard) you get something much more valuable. What are fools thinking making bidding wars on fixer-uppers! You are pricing out the profit, taking on huge risk, and making out even at the end of the day.

Have people gone mad! FOOLS!

#50 The Great Gazoo on 08.10.09 at 11:16 am

Based on my talks with people the explanation for the buying frenzy is as so:

– due to low interest rates… monthly payments for a mortgage now is pretty much the same amount as if you were renting.. so why not own it? – heard this from many people and didn’t bother arguing the stupidity

– alot of people are buying before the harmonized tax kicks in – heard this from a high end housing contrator’s son

– re agents are unethical, no matter what your dire financial situation is, no matter how bad the economy, no matter how much debt you have, they are not accountable for anything in their profession and only care about their fat commission$$$

– crashes occur at the peak just like stocks, see Nortel stocks and the perception on investment they had before they crashed, now everyone thinks re is a good investment, how wrong they are…

#51 LS on 08.10.09 at 11:35 am

@Mike Hunt
So your friend made money in the ponzi scheme that is real estate. Lots of people made money with Madoff, but most of them weren’t smart enough to get out before the whole thing collapsed. It sounds like your friend doesn’t know when to get out either, so in a few years when he’ll at best have trouble getting his original purchase price back for that $2mil house, you won’t feel so bad about his previous profits.

#52 confused and a little crazed on 08.10.09 at 11:37 am

Mike hunt, 7 #

I agree with you the govt will do everything to keep this bubble alive …including sleeping with each other. It doesn’t matter liberal or conservative. Dean #39 said it best… up the vissa …lower the % rate. I didn’t think the govt would be so stupid but I was wrong so were most of us. affordability is what you can pay now …forget about tomorrow. even if it means 40 years from now …every canadian no savings or pension…u are on your own, sucker.

#53 POL-CAN on 08.10.09 at 11:45 am

I think Charles Hugh Smith just went tin-foil on us and I like it.

http://www.oftwominds.com/blogaug09/KaPoom2CHS.htm

When I first saw the documetary on the implosion of Argentina my first thoughts were that this was a test run.

If anyone wants to see where we might be heading I suggest watching the clips and reading the above essay.

Argentina’s Economic Collapse

http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?p=41130#post41130

#54 jess on 08.10.09 at 11:49 am

…when the insurance industry wants rule changes why do i start feeling worried?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/life-insurance-industry-pushes-pension-fix/article1246171/

#55 hal smith on 08.10.09 at 11:49 am

#6 mike hunt
You’ve got a bingo there mike…you hit the nail right on the head. The government will do whatever it takes.
Perhaps they will keep interest rates low by creating more money and buying their own bonds and devaluing the dollar which they want in the 80 to 85 cent range anyways.

#56 Calgary rip off on 08.10.09 at 11:49 am

Garth,

These posts have no relevance whatsoever to Calgary.

Calgary has not changed. Its a huge city now, and prices will not drop to pre boom prices.

The other day there were 15 realtors showing a foreclosure for $300K in Hidden Valley and there were already 4 offers on the table.

The reality is that people will be priced out FOREVER in Calgary-prices only will go up, as it is now a big city.

There is a solution: Train consistently in your career so prospects the hell out of this godforsaken hellhole of a town named Calgary(originally Fort Brisbois but renamed angrily by a general to mock the beach off Scotland named Calgary) are available and you are not stuck in this stupid town where people are dumb, things are a rip off, the traffic sucks and its frozen 6 months out of the year. Alberta is a P.o.S.

That’s my plan: Sit tight in my unionized job and wait while I get the certificates I need to get out of this joke of a city called Calgary. It’s truly disgusting here.

#57 Jon B on 08.10.09 at 12:05 pm

Has anyone considered the funemployment rate? I believe we are now at an all time high. Who needs a job when credits-a-flowin.

#58 bubbleboombust on 08.10.09 at 12:06 pm

#39 Dean “nobody is buying regardless of the bargains.”

Just wondering, are they actual bargains or just bargains compared to 2005 – 2007 prices? What year’s levels have they fallen to?

#59 PTDBD on 08.10.09 at 12:39 pm

The Ultimate Real Estate – Our Country

Sheeple getting wool pulled over eyes…Media now call it “Three Amigo Summit” and the “North America Summit” but not actual “Security and Prosperity Partnership”. Why are they so reluctant now to call the meeting what it is?
here is our Government Web site for it…
http://www.spp-psp.gc.ca/eic/site/spp-psp.nsf/eng/home

#60 blobby on 08.10.09 at 12:40 pm

“It’s like a game of musical chairs with very few actual participants.”

I prefer to think of it as a pyramid scheme.. it sucks to be at the bottom.

#61 Keith in Calgary on 08.10.09 at 12:40 pm

#34 VOODOO…….

For the condo I rent here in the chic Mission district of Calgary the ratio is 26 – 1…….

#62 blobby on 08.10.09 at 12:42 pm

@Mike Hunt : The longer i live in canada – the more i’m moving towards your way of thinking

(great name btw)

#63 Mike Hunt on 08.10.09 at 12:57 pm

I see no reason why the gov’t can’t or won’t continue this charade for another 5 or 10 years with continuous cheap money.

They will continue to do it the same way: keep giving out cheap loans and buy back the crappy ones from prior years from the banks and put it on the gov’t balance sheet, which they will not disclose properly thereby continually inflating the economy.

This left-pocket right-pocket maneuver (i.e., lie) will skew the supply/demand equilibrium in the bond/treasury markets, by the way; so, yes, money can and likely will stay cheap for a long, long time. Well, as long as we let our governments disclose what they want about our finances effectively running our economy like a ponzi scheme…

#64 PTDBD on 08.10.09 at 12:59 pm

Huh?

You, the Canadian taxpayer, are providing $400,000 for training Mexican law enforcement. In June, you the Canadian taxpayer gave and additional $12 million to support Afghan police salaries. I betcha that some of our Canadian municipalities would have loved to have that money.

#65 VOODOO on 08.10.09 at 1:04 pm

Senior speech writer for the CMHC wanted.

Garth, maybe you should consider applying?

KEY RESULTS/ACTIVITIES
“Ascertains the intended audiences and required effect, scope and nature of the communications; researches background information and consults extensively with policy and program experts, business lines and colleagues to understand the nature and theme of the speech and the key messages to be delivered.”

https://cmhcschl.taleo.net/careersection/2/jobdetail.ftl

#66 The 'VULTURE' on 08.10.09 at 1:11 pm

When is the HST coming into play in on the purchase of new and used homes??

I thought it was next July 2011. If it comes sooner I have the means to leave this province and in all likelyhood will.

#67 dd on 08.10.09 at 1:14 pm

#55 Calgary rip off

“Calgary has not changed. Its a huge city now, and prices will not drop to pre boom prices. The reality is that people will be priced out FOREVER in Calgary-prices only will go up, as it is now a big city.”

Rip-off, the problem you are having is that you want a house. As long as you got a roof over your head why pay the big bucks? Yes, prices here are still too high and they might be for a couple more years to come. Sit tight and relax.

#68 jess on 08.10.09 at 1:18 pm

“Right to Rent: a program, first floated two years ago by liberal think-tanker Dean Baker, that would allow folks who have lost their home to foreclosure to continue living in the home as a renter. As Baker sees it, giving the foreclosed the right to rent their home at a market rate for a long stretch (perhaps five to 10 years) is a win-win. The landlord (an investor or bank) gets market rental income, the homeowner isn’t uprooted, property values aren’t further depressed by foreclosure fire sales, and taxpayers aren’t asked to bail out lender or borrower. In mid-July a Treasury official confirmed the administration is mulling the idea. The House has supplied traction too, recently passing the Neighborhood Preservation Act, which would permit FDIC-insured banks to lease back homes to folks it has foreclosed on. Did you catch that artful spin? This isn’t solely about helping the foreclosed; it’s about protecting your neighboring home’s value.”
cnn

#69 jess on 08.10.09 at 1:19 pm

whoops forgot to add how is this a win win?

#70 Evangeline on 08.10.09 at 1:29 pm

Another reason, (besides low interest rates), that buyers in Ontario and BC are scrambling to buy is to avoid paying the upcoming tax on real estate. Seeing as Canadians are already taxed too highly, another tax burden should be just great for the economy … NOT!

#71 Gregor Samsa on 08.10.09 at 1:35 pm

Imagine for a moment that you had never even heard of a “Garth Turner.” Your internet usage usage consists of a rotation between facebook, hotmail, google, and something like tsn. You watch TV every day, getting a full dose of commercials, HGTV (buy that house! renovate it!) and other hammered in “needs.” Chances are you work for the government in some way (seems like half of Canadians do) so you have no worries about job security and a gold plated pension waiting for you. All you know is what you are being spoonfed: the economy is recovering, everything is fine, housing is booming (better get in now while you still can!), Canada has fared the best in the whole world during the recession, etc.

When you realize that most Canadians fall into this boat, it is not hard to understand what is happening right now. For your average Canadian, there was no recession. They might have heard some stories, chatted around the water cooler about those poor suckers not working in government, grumbled a little about the GM bailout… and that’s that. See you next recession.

#72 David on 08.10.09 at 1:51 pm

That self-employed statistic sounds ominous. It can mean vigourous entrepreneurship or hopeless involuntary marginalisation for thousands of families. Raw statistics do not make those kind of subtle distinctions. Families that bought during the end stage of the bubble are pretty much sunk in the mire of unrepayable long term debt and better have a Plan B and, no, the smiling friendly realtors will not be there to help when they realise they are hopelessly indebted borrowers facing rising costs for renting what looked like cheap short term money. Welcome to the era of housing in the 5 digit price range.

#73 hal smith on 08.10.09 at 2:00 pm

This whole teetering upside down pyramid is held in place by just one thing : CONFIDENCE. If there is no confidence, the whole thing collapses. Housing, TSX, economy, maybe even the country all collapse so lies must be told and the truth must remain hidden. They will say and do ANYTHING to keep the bubble inflated.

#74 OttawaMike on 08.10.09 at 2:10 pm

#52 POL-CAN on 08.10.09 at 11:45 am
That Argentina guest columnist is certainly thought provoking.

His “10 Pins for the Stock Market Bubble” essay today really hit the mark.

On another note I attended our weekend rural fair here in a village east of Ottawa and was told by friend’s and neighbours how unfortunate it was that I unloaded my house as it’s only going one way baby-UP!
Recession’s over and good times are back without O-town skipping a beat. I nodded approvingly not wanting to spoil the buzz for everybody….

#75 Industrial Guy on 08.10.09 at 2:48 pm

Everything is false about this economy. Government unemployment stats are a contrived pile of lies.

House sales figures are as real as that “other offer” on the house you just made an offer on. You know this scam. This is when the house you placed an offer on, the house which hasn’t seen an offer in 3 months suddenly has two other offers the exact same day you made yours.

It’s called stampeding the buyer. You better act now or that house you want will be gone. Oh, the other offers are real alright. Those pesky ethic rules always get in the way. They usually come from numbered companies owned by the RE Brokerage (or their buddies). So, you’re basically bidding against your RE agents own company. It gets really crazy if another Real buyer gets involved. The false offers can heat up the bidding until only the frenzied victims are left to bid against each other.

If your RE agent is smart, he ran a credit check on you so he knows your limit. The basic rule of RE is: The buyer will always pay the maximum they can for a house.

Unethical? Come on!! There are commissions to be made. Demand to see the other offers. See what happens. That’s why prices are not dropping. This game is fixed.

It takes Real Panic like what happened in January to change this market. As we all know, the Government of Canada through the Bank of Canada put a quick end to that. Only a Fool would play with these rules..

#76 Dean on 08.10.09 at 3:30 pm

#57 – Just wondering, are they actual bargains or just bargains compared to 2005 – 2007 prices? What year’s levels have they fallen to?

Depends on area and data you look at but it’s around 2002-2003 across the board. Nearly a 50% drop from the peak in a lot of places.

Not sure what you mean by “actual bargain”. You’ve always got to compare against something to determine a bargain. Compared to Canada’s prices they’re a great deal. Compared to the peak price they’re a huge bargain. Compared to the price in 1961 they’re a terrible waste of money. Inflation adjusted, they’re below what they were before the bubble — so that seems like a good deal to me.

#77 Ian on 08.10.09 at 3:41 pm

“The first panacea for a mismanaged nation is inflation of the currency; the second is war.
Both bring a temporary prosperity; both bring a permanent ruin.
And both are the refuge of political and economic predators.” – Ernest Hemingway

#78 BobbyV on 08.10.09 at 3:57 pm

The entire real estate market in the GTA is like a house of cards, it’s being propped up by un-natural market forces (IE low rates). The underlying fundamentals are not there and eventually we will see the deck of cards collapse …. it’s not a matter of if but when.

#79 CinToronto on 08.10.09 at 4:18 pm

#34 VOODOO: It seems like you got your average rent in Ottawa from your sense of houses that you would like to rent. CMHC’s June stats put the average rent of a 3+ bedroom apartment in Ottawa at a mere $1213. The average house sales price in Ottawa this July was $322,795. Although you can’t quite equate a 3+bedroom apartment with an average house, that still puts the house price/rent ratio at about 22.

#80 Two-thirds on 08.10.09 at 4:19 pm

How’s this for an explanation:

“Pulitzer prize–winner Chris Hedges charts the dramatic and disturbing rise of a post-literate society that craves fantasy, ecstasy and illusion.

Chris Hedges argues that we now live in two societies: One, the minority, functions in a print-based, literate world, that can cope with complexity and can separate illusion from truth. The other, a growing majority, is retreating from a reality-based world into one of false certainty and magic. In this “other society,” serious film and theatre, as well as newspapers and books, are being pushed to the margins.

In the tradition of Christopher Lasch’s The Culture of Narcissism and Neil Postman’s Amusing Ourselves to Death, Hedges navigates this culture — attending WWF contests as well as Ivy League graduation ceremonies — exposing an age of terrifying decline and heightened self-delusion.”

http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Illusion-Literacy-Triumph-Spectacle/dp/1568584377

Has anyone here read this book? I think I’m going to pick up a copy today after work.

Empire of Illusion: The End of Literacy and the Triumph of Spectacle by Chris Hedges

#81 X on 08.10.09 at 4:24 pm

#65 – I thought the HST was only applicable to new homes.

http://www.kpmg.ca/en/services/tax/tnf/tnfc0920.html

#82 Dave on 08.10.09 at 4:28 pm

Not sure what you mean by “actual bargain”. You’ve always got to compare against something to determine a bargain. Compared to Canada’s prices they’re a great deal. Compared to the peak price they’re a huge bargain. Compared to the price in 1961 they’re a terrible waste of money. Inflation adjusted, they’re below what they were before the bubble — so that seems like a good deal to me.

—————————–

How about comparing prices to what families can afford? By using this method, prices are completely insane compared to historical levels. Google doesn’t buy and sell townhouses, it’s regular people that do this.

we’re in for a mess

#83 Barb .. a reader in Calgary on 08.10.09 at 4:42 pm

Hal 72,
Your point about confidence is well taken.

But there should be another word for it. It’s not so much ‘confidence’ for instance, [that I see out here in Calgary], as it is just a determination to try to carry on as normal. It’s more like a ‘push to normalcy’ [normalcy, of course, being ridiculous and endlessly increasing prices].

It’s such an odd course of action we’ve taken:
1] put our ruby slippers on,
2] click our heels three times,
3] wish for prices to rise to infinity..

There’s no place like ‘normal’. There’s no place like ‘normal’. There’s no place like ‘normal’…

#84 gold bugger on 08.10.09 at 5:00 pm

Industrial Guy, has the concept of “salesmanship” ever occurred to you?

You know, between you and that perpetual whiner Gazoo, you’d think goods just sell themselves and everybody else works for free.

In reality, the world is full of sales reps. Everything you buy has a rep behind it somewhere. They all get paid for their time. That’s all real estate is. A thing people buy. And other people get paid to sell.

Nobody forces anybody to buy real estate. Realtors do not make house prices go up. All the invented bids in the world cannot force a buyer to sign on the dotted line.

Grow up.

#85 homeboy on 08.10.09 at 5:01 pm

You people fail to realize that buyers of homes will not move unless they really have to do so.

with current rates forecast to stay low the bottom line remains the same: Housing prices will stay strong for at least 10-15 years.

Come back in 20 years and maybe you will own a condo.

Just don’t see this thing going down especially when rates are low and amortization is 35 years.

How’s the Kool-aid? — Garth

#86 Peter on 08.10.09 at 5:13 pm

Garth, I understand your PAIN of people bashing at you and as you tell them to beware of a housing correction or a bubble should burst real soon. For myself, I have been very close to analyzing the current market, economics and stuff and when my friend ask me about buying a house, I have always tell them this game should be ended very very badly…but what I can say is 100 % of my friends and even relatives have been very actively pouring money into the housing market either its for marriage reason or investment reason (to rent it to someone or buying few more to flip it)…They have telling me since March that I was DARN WRONG and most of them said if I listens to you of not going into the market, I would have no money by renting, flipping or paper profit by living into their home sweet home…Anyways, I still did not go into market yet because I still do believe these people would realize when their interest rate will rise very seriously when US start raising interest rates to keep up that value of their debt and our CAD are also dependent on USD already.(since most of them who are doing their mortgage right now are using VARIABLE but not a closed term and this gap between VAR and Closed would be wider and wider)…

#87 Peter on 08.10.09 at 5:16 pm

That Self-Employed positions are just simply created out of thin AIR…You can be unemployed and be self-employed…I can work at my garden and I am still a self-employed by my mom and dad…so, I just think its like our mighty USD down south…money created out of thin air..

#88 dd on 08.10.09 at 5:36 pm

#75 Dean

…Nearly a 50% drop from the peak in a lot of places. Not sure what you mean by “actual bargain”…

One shouldn’t assume just because prices have decrease 50% that these are “bargins.” You can’t compare to house prices a year ago or even 50 years ago. The measure to use should be based on what is affordable to income or what the property would rent for in a reasonable market (free cash flow).

#89 Grumpydawgs on 08.10.09 at 5:51 pm

Good points Garth re: EI stats. The US had a similar release last week of falling unemployment numbers only to be countered minutes later by the fact that hundreds of thousands each month are seeing their unemployment weeks running out. In isolation the good news is headline while facts are on page 16, if at all.

I see Canadas biggest historic success story is titters today, good bye billions of tax dollars, thx Nortel.

#90 Grumpydawgs on 08.10.09 at 6:04 pm

http://blogs.reuters.com/rolfe-winkler/2009/08/08/beware-the-jobs-number/

#91 Bob on 08.10.09 at 6:36 pm

Jobless Recovery!

Huh?

#92 Kevin on 08.10.09 at 6:49 pm

#34 Voodoo – For the house I rent in Victoria, the price/rent ratio is 28 – 1. Built in the early 80’s, close to the University, 2 levels, 4 bedrooms and an attached garage. Well insulated and efficient. I just can’t justify a house purchase when I can rent at those levels.

#93 john m on 08.10.09 at 7:08 pm

All i can say is wow ..is there ever going to be a rude awakening..when everyone has extended their credit to the limit will so many people actually realize …we really are in a recession and its not getting better…… when shacks (fixer uppers) are selling in TO for 500,000 plus with less than $150,000 in building materials sitting on a piece of dirt that they must value at $350,000 plus..what kind of greater fool sees a future investment in this?????????. Its utterly ridiculous in my opinion.I think Canada has a surplus of credit card millionaires……………and then there is Vancouver and Calgary etc,etc ,etcgawd are they in for a rude awakening.

#94 jess on 08.10.09 at 7:08 pm

a guide to heloc basics

http://www.helocbasics.com/list-of-non-recourse-mortgage-states-and-anti-deficiency-statutes/

List of Non-Recourse Mortgage States and Anti-Deficiency Statutes

#95 WillsDad on 08.10.09 at 7:17 pm

#55 Calgary Rip-off

You sound like you’re ready to go postal there buddy.

I’m guessing you are a marginalized, friendless malcontent. Close?

Reality check: on my last trip to Calgary, a month ago (after 3 years away), it took me 15 minutes to drive from the airport to Signal Hill. I didn’t hit a light until crowchild and 37th, an incredible distance. Buddy seems to be stuck in the traffic problems of 6 years ago. I was amazed at the lack of traffic there. As well, people were very friendly, city was clean and green with gorgeous blue skies, and one hour drive to the Rockies. It ain’t Shangri-la, but Calgarians have a lot to be proud of. I’m so sick of the smugness of some Easterners.

Get a life.

#96 Solitario on 08.10.09 at 7:26 pm

“The city of Stratford in SW Ontario, home of the auto rust belt. Population is about 35,000, and the latest Stats Can report says the area now has 14,200 people out of work. How is this so different from Detroit, or Flint?”

Why the need to lie, Mr. Turner? Is misleading in a politicians blood?
Here’s the quote from the original article:
“Statistics Canada reported Friday the total number of unemployed people in the Perth-Huron-Grey-Bruce region, which includes Stratford, was 14,200 in July.
Figures for Stratford and Perth County specifically are not available from StatsCan.”

The area has a population of about 300 000. Not 35 000!
The unemployment number provided was for the AREA not for the town of Stratford!

http://perthcountyspc.ca/reports/Women%20in%20Poverty%20Report%20Card%202008.pdf

Actually the area has about 100,000 people, and my statement that it has 14,200 unemployed is correct. In any case, I provided a link so people can read it for themselves. It is also a disturbing level of joblessness. — Garth

#97 Nostradamus Le Mad Vlad on 08.10.09 at 7:40 pm

“. . . sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the crash to come . . .” (with apologies to The Beatles)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B9gAdKGDsI&feature=related
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkm2WGTX220

But I digress. :-P Welcome all, to the Krazy Kornucopia Konspiracy of Kelowna, where the motto is: Our Bubbles Are Bigger Than Yours!

Perusing through numerous well-written posts, I was struck by images on the horizon of my nose, turning me cross-eyed, inside-out and upside-down. Bre-X rising? I think not.

Looking beyond the current abyss, I briefly scanned the e-mails from this morning. First, Mish’s “On The Brink Of Recovery”:
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/08/on-brink-of-recovery.html
Mish quotes: “Economist Paul Krugman and Obama’s economic adviser Laura Tyson claim U.S. Economy May Be on Brink of Recovery.”

(Brief interlude — cartoon time!) — http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2009/08/great-recession-for-whom.html

Followed by Bill Bonner of The Daily Reckoning:
http://dailyreckoning.com/the-bounce-phase-of-the-economic-depression/
Bonner says: “Paul Krugman says the world ‘avoided a second Great Depression.’ He’s wrong too. The stock market crashed in ’29. The market then bounced. After a few months almost everyone was persuaded that the “worst was over.” But the worst was just beginning. It wasn’t until 1932 that the stock market finally hit bottom. . . .”

Then, this one:
http://www.moneymorning.com/2009/08/10/recession-over/
“Compared with a year earlier, initial claims were up 22%, while continuing claims were up 89%. Compared with six months ago, initial claims have fallen 12% while continuing claims are up 33%.”
These are govt. figures; how accurate are they? As far as I know, they don’t include people who have given up looking for work altogether. Cooking the books?

With all the economic fuddle-duddle happening so quickly now (one part of the overall mess), the mass confusion leads to part of one of the links from last night:

“. . . International Swine Flu Conference that will be occurring in Washington, D.C. Aug 19 – Aug 21, 2009 . . .” — After this is over, things will be taking pace at a faster rate of speed. Put everything together and what to make of it?

Well, the Aug. 19-21 Conference; then, the nine day “Bank Holiday” (Sat. – Sun. – Mon. – Fri. – Sat. – Sun.); during this panic, Martial Law is brought in by govts. to give them sweeping powers and full control over everyone and everything (see link below); Fall ’09 or Spring 2010 “Surprise”.

Take into account Sunday, Dec. 23, 2012 when the Mayan Calendar ends. So, a polar – equator shift so no one knows what the hell is going on anymore, toss in WW3 for good measure and then pull ourselves up by our bootstraps to start all over again!

Ain’t life grand!

Further down, see what the US (and probably our) govts. are allowed to do.
http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/fema.htm

http://www.roguegovernment.com/Army_National_Guard_Recruiting_FEMA_Camp_Or_%22Internment_Resettlement%22_Specialists/16714/0/13/13/Y/M.html

#98 JoeCalgary on 08.10.09 at 7:42 pm

“Crisis and climate force supply chain shift”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/65a709ec-850b-11de-9a64-00144feabdc0.html?nclick_check=1

#99 TS on 08.10.09 at 7:44 pm

Hi Garth….great, factual posting as always.

When we have banks willing to give a $500,000 mortgage to a couple of 20-something males (one with less than 1 year of work experience, and the other with 3 years of work experience) who only have $25,000 down on a house between them…. you know something is terribly wrong (REAL life example – two friends of my daughter).

Yet another house of cards being built on credit…. GAWD – you’d think people would have learned something from the US experience. But no! Amazing what a lack of information and basic financial understanding can do to folks when their emotions get out of control when they’re ‘juiced’ on real estate.

Greater fools is right! Unfortunately prudent Canadians will have to pay for all of this foolishness once this bubblette breaks in the form of higher interest rates etc. needed to cover the loss provisions of these stupid and greedy bankers.

#100 eddy on 08.10.09 at 7:55 pm

I don’t know about the rest of Canada, but regarding Toronto, i agree with homeboy- no price drop in the Near future.

Max Kaiser says:

“The price of credit (interest rates) will never rise enough to change the behaviour of debt addicts ”

http://maxkeiser.com/

#101 TS on 08.10.09 at 7:55 pm

The rise in ‘self employed’ hides the severity of the current economic slide and the true state of the unemployment crisis in Canada. Most people do not choose to be ‘self employed’ – it is something that the majority choose out of desperation.

After 25 years of corporate life I was downsized about 9 years ago and became self employed as a result. It certainly has not been easy, but we’ve been flexible and creative and we’ve been successful generating an income for ourselves over those years. Personal reinvention and the ability to sell are critical for anyone looking at self employment.

Even after 9 years and a lot of loyal clients we can tell you from hard experience that at least 40% of your time has to be spent on selling – no matter how busy you may be at any given time.

The reality for the self employed is very simple….you only eat what you can kill. If you can’t hunt you starve.

#102 Solitario on 08.10.09 at 8:11 pm

Peter,
you’re saying:

“That Self-Employed positions are just simply created out of thin AIR…You can be unemployed and be self-employed…I can work at my garden and I am still a self-employed by my mom and dad…so, I just think its like our mighty USD down south…money created out of thin air”…

According to Statistics Canada:
“The number of self-employed increased by 35,000 in July. Since October, self-employment has risen by 75,000, mostly in finance, insurance, real estate and leasing; professional, scientific and technical services; ”

I couldn’t find you and your garden in StatsCan’s list…

Since you seem to be so confident in your assumptions, would you be able to explain how “out of thin AIR” self-employment positions would be created in finance, insurance, real-estate and leasing?

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/71-001-x/2009007/part-partie1-eng.htm

StatsCan said ‘mostly’ in those areas. It is not a complete list by the agency’s own admission. — Garth

#103 Solitario on 08.10.09 at 8:15 pm

Mr.Turner says:
“Discouraged and tired of rejection, over 53,000 unemployed Canadians stopped looking for work last month. That is what economists called discouraged workers, which means they just vanish from the unemployment stats.”

53000 stopped looking for work…hmmmm…
35000 of those are folks between 15 and 24 years old…
a little to early to be “what economists called discouraged workers”…

For men 25 years and over, employment actually increased by 12500.

Maybe we should dig a little deeper before jumping to conclusions.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/71-001-x/2009007/t001-eng.htm

#104 blobby on 08.10.09 at 8:17 pm

@55 : Quote : “The reality is that people will be priced out FOREVER in Calgary-prices only will go up, as it is now a big city.”

You seem to be missing an understanding of simple economics.

I’ll try to explain simply for you – If people are “priced out” and they cant afford something, then the thing doesnt sell, and therefor the price comes down until it becomes a value it will sell at.

This thinking that house prices will keep going up exponentially and no-one will be able to afford them – is confusing to say the least.

But yet people STILL think their one bedroom condo in vancouver will be worth $5 million in 10 years time.

#105 Nostradamus Le Mad Vlad on 08.10.09 at 8:33 pm

With apologies to The Beatles . . .

“. . . sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the crash to come . . .”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B9gAdKGDsI&feature=related — or —
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkm2WGTX220

But I digress. :-P Welcome all, to the Krazy Kornucopia Konspiracy of Kelowna, where the motto is: Our Bubbles Are Bigger Than Yours!

Perusing through numerous well-written posts, I was struck by images on the horizon of my nose, turning me cross-eyed, inside-out and upside-down. Bre-X rising? I think not.

Looking beyond the current abyss, I briefly scanned the e-mails from this morning. First, Mish’s “On The Brink Of Recovery”:
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/08/on-brink-of-recovery.html
Mish quotes: “Economist Paul Krugman and Obama’s economic adviser Laura Tyson claim U.S. Economy May Be on Brink of Recovery.”

(Brief interlude — cartoon time!) — http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2009/08/great-recession-for-whom.html

Followed by Bill Bonner of The Daily Reckoning:
http://dailyreckoning.com/the-bounce-phase-of-the-economic-depression/
Bonner says: “Paul Krugman says the world ‘avoided a second Great Depression.’ He’s wrong too. The stock market crashed in ’29. The market then bounced. After a few months almost everyone was persuaded that the “worst was over.” But the worst was just beginning. It wasn’t until 1932 that the stock market finally hit bottom. . . .”

Then, this one:
http://www.moneymorning.com/2009/08/10/recession-over/
“Compared with a year earlier, initial claims were up 22%, while continuing claims were up 89%. Compared with six months ago, initial claims have fallen 12% while continuing claims are up 33%.”
These are govt. figures; how accurate are they? As far as I know, they don’t include people who have given up looking for work altogether. Cooking the books?

With all the economic fuddle-duddle happening so quickly now (one part of the overall mess), the mass confusion leads to part of one of the links from last night:

“. . . International Swine Flu Conference that will be occurring in Washington, D.C. Aug 19 – Aug 21, 2009 . . .” — After this is over, things will be taking pace at a faster rate of speed. Put everything together and what to make of it?

Well, the Aug. 19-21 Conference; then, the nine day “Bank Holiday” (Sat. – Sun. – Mon. – Fri. – Sat. – Sun.); during this panic, Martial Law is brought in by govts. to give them sweeping powers and full control over everyone and everything (see link below); Fall ’09 or Spring 2010 “Surprise”. An outstanding reason to have $15K cash on hand, $10K in silver 1-oz. and $5K in gold 1-oz. coins.

Take into account Sunday, Dec. 23, 2012 when the Mayan Calendar ends. So, a polar – equator shift so no one knows what the hell is going on anymore, toss in WW3 for good measure and then pull ourselves up by our bootstraps to start all over again!

As the WH has given its’ so-called “approval” (who needed someone else approval anyway?) to the present Iran govt., which it had to anyway, Israel has to look for someone else to provoke / attack, ‘coz they’re in the middle of a cash crunch too..

Ain’t life grand!

Further down, see what the US (and probably our) govts. are allowed to do.
http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/fema.htm

http://www.roguegovernment.com/Army_National_Guard_Recruiting_FEMA_Camp_Or_%22Internment_Resettlement%22_Specialists/16714/0/13/13/Y/M.html

#106 Solitario on 08.10.09 at 8:43 pm

“StatsCan said ‘mostly’ in those areas. It is not a complete list by the agency’s own admission. — Garth”

From Peter’s posting, it would appear those self-employment positions would be “mostly” people working in their own garden…

I don’t know any of Peter’s bogus self-employed. I do know a few formerly unemployed people who started a landscaping business…another one just got a contract in IS consulting- was on unemployment a few months…hmmm, maybe those self-emplyment positions are “mostly” real?

#107 jess on 08.10.09 at 8:49 pm

OTTAWA — A top labour lawyer is calling for government action to protect pensions after the Supreme Court ruled it was OK for a company to move pension plan money.

The high court ruled Friday that Kerry Canada Inc. could transfer surplus cash from its defined-benefit pension plan to meet its obligations under a newer defined-contribution plan
http://www.benefitscanada.com/pension/governance/article.jsp?content=20090810_155158_5100

http://www.benefitscanada.com/pension/governance/article.jsp?content=20081118_165508_14796

#108 john m on 08.10.09 at 8:58 pm

It seems to me that a lot of people are under the impression that the Government is going to cover their butts no matter how foolishly they extend their credit….a word to the wise–there really is no “tooth fairy”. The Government needs revenue and its decreasing at an alarming rate..as a few new money grabbing taxes are slipped under the door and any future bailouts will require more (taxes).Tax increases do not buy votes nor does increasing the debt…… don’t kid yourself…when the crap really starts hitting the fan this winter those vote buying boys in Ottawa will start spewing a whole new form of propaganda…… and i don’t think bailouts will be part of it?

#109 Justin on 08.10.09 at 9:05 pm

“I’m just a dumb country boy. Maybe you can explain this.”

Yes, it’s called an asset deflation trap.

i.e. It is a planned event by the globalist elitist banksters (B.ofC.) in conjunction with the Government of Canada. It is designed to destroy Canadians main asset class…the Home.

Unfortunately, the Greatest Fools which have recently purchased are ensuring that the collapse will be that much more devastating.

#110 Mike B on 08.10.09 at 9:08 pm

homeboy84 scares me… Nothing continues to rise forever.. Predicting a 15 YEAR run is so insane I just don’t know where to begin !!

#111 X on 08.10.09 at 9:15 pm

A bubble exists when asset price inflation rises beyond what incomes can sustain. A bubble represents people abandoning reason and prudence for hope and greed.

#112 DW on 08.10.09 at 9:40 pm

Thanks…. DG #25…. for your response and maybe it will work out with your rental digs in the distillery district. My daughters husband is coming over at thanksgiving for a few days, so it would be great to touch base then.

#113 Industrial Guy on 08.10.09 at 9:55 pm

gold bugger …“salesmanship”?? You don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. When you have created and sold a technology which has revolutionized a major Global industry, you’ll understand what salesmanship is all about..

RE is a corrupt biased game. Is this the “salesmanship” you’re talking about.

It’s no wonder more and more home owners go around the Realtor Mafia and sell direct. Your days are numbered bud.

Your association freaked when Bell Canada started a lower priced operation. Fraser Beach says: “the board (TREB)shut him down when they learned his website would offer lower prices and that his partner was BNV Real Estate, a subsidiary of telecom giant Bell.”

gold bugger you’re dead wrong. Realtors do make house prices go up.

“Phantom offers have become a rather widespread and growing problem. Yes, most agents have heard of them! These are offers that come out of nowhere.”

“It has also bee rumoured that some agents have arranged for their friends, relatives, and other agents to park their cars outside the house the evening that offers are submitted to create a frenzy of activity. Talk about home-staging, this really takes it to the next level. Stanley Kubrick and Steven Spielberg would be proud to have staged such a production. “

http://ontariorealestatesource.blogspot.com/2009/06/phantom-offers.html

They are masters of manipulation. After all, they do it everyday. $200,000.00 over asking!! Come on. give me a break. Those invented bids drive good hard working people who just want a house to pay insane prices.

It’s always a great time to buy RE. Isn’t it?

#114 charliegosurf on 08.10.09 at 9:58 pm

squirrells dumplings

this is how good they care for realtor$ in Thailand, nowonder why theres no bubble there
BEWARE SENSIBLE OCCIDENTALS SOUL DONT CLICK

http://bworldconnection.com/societe.html?idA=398&rub=Socit

sweet rollin dreams,

#115 Bottoms_Up on 08.10.09 at 10:19 pm

.#78 CinToronto on 08.10.09 at 4:18 pm
—————————————————
Apples and Oranges C.T., apples and oranges.

#116 dd on 08.10.09 at 10:21 pm

#84 homeboy

“Just don’t see this thing going down especially when rates are low and amortization is 35 years”

Whatever homy. Rates will not stay low forever kid. The liquidity will have to be withdrawn from the market as soon as the recovery takes place, therefore higher rates are in store. Futhermore with all the other competing expenditures being placed on “making a living” ( increased taxes, higher energy and food costs), there will not be much left for that expensive house.

Just like all other assets asset, house prices will come into line based on reasonableness or common sense (affordability).

#117 conan on 08.10.09 at 10:32 pm

Yo Industrial Guy

Gold blogger makes more sense then you do. If you think marketing costs are some kind of scam you know zero about business.

Are you in manufacturing? I doubt it.

I am guessing here but I think your only job experience is one where paper work arrives at your cubicle. You complete it and more shows up. The harder you work the less anyone cares.

#118 Industrial Guy on 08.10.09 at 11:03 pm

conan, I am in manufacturing. Have been for 18 years.
Wow!! you’re so right about the paper thing. Every two weeks, something called “Payroll” arrives on my desk.

Oh yeah, as for your comments about marketing, well ……. I’m in charge of that too. In fact, my firm is doing very well thank you. One of the few in South Western Ontario. We operate only in Canada ….. and we have been hiring right through this recession. Imagine that.

Geez, I quote one of your own professions blogs and you still think I made this up?

Marketing cost? RE agents know something about marketing?

“It has also bee rumoured that some agents have arranged for their friends, relatives, and other agents to park their cars outside the house the evening that offers are submitted to create a frenzy of activity.”

Conan, youre right. Gettings these “friends, relatives, and other agents” to keep their mouths shut must cost a bundle.

#119 Mark on 08.10.09 at 11:07 pm

# 17 Tony on 08.10.09 at 4:18 am

“America Lying About Job Losses”

Tony,

Gimme a break! It’s not America talking about job losses “offset” by 35,000 “self-employed” in one month. How many of them have made ANY money so far? 0.001%?

You must be a real”expert” on America, eh? Because you watch a lot of American television, right? Lol.

#120 Jay Currie on 08.10.09 at 11:18 pm

We’re renting in Victoria and for the second time in two years the LL is trying to sell the house. Our ratio is 28.

There have been 4 walk throughs in four weeks. Happily our landlords are looking for super, duper, whooper fools and are 120k over market. We are not packing but we are looking at rentals and there are lots. Some nicer than this and a bit cheaper. My objective is to reduce the monthly nut so the Craigslist hunt continues.

#121 EJ on 08.10.09 at 11:21 pm

#109 Industrial Guy:

I hadn’t heard about that Fraser Beach issue, so I looked it up:

http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/658577

It’s the typical response from a industry that sees itself being phased out. The Internet is going to force these guys to go the way of the horse & buggy. Of course they’ll try every trick in the book to maintain their monopoly, but their demise is as inevitable as printed news. People will eventually wake up from their comas and realize that paying tens of thousands of dollars in commissions for something they really could do themselves just doesn’t make sense.

I’ve been seeing more and more Comfree for-sale signs popping up, and that’s a good thing.

#122 Peter on 08.10.09 at 11:40 pm

Solitario & Garth , yes, finance and insurance can be someone working for a bank, gets laid off, going to independent broker and get a job as financial advisor…but I never heard of big banks and insurance companies take these guys and paying them self employed salaries…that means they must be concentrated in selling stuff to clients…and their pay must hurting their butt because before you do have stability in getting paid bi-weekly or monthly but now, you are down to commissions and under-cutted basic salary…, secondly, i forgot to tell you, 8 out of 10 so called financial advisors will laid them off within 2 years because its lack of cliente and poor reputations. Real estate are someone who are just seeing this hot market and would like to go in and make some money out of it..However, they dont get PAID until they sell a home…so, it is commission based story…My ex-boss just wrote his real estate exam today and he was so called (unemployed and did not reported to Gov because he is consuming his own wealth).. Leasing are some guys who are selling car and maybe (tools) and would like to work for a financial firm to be self-employed…This job is basically a salesperson and sells credit to you or your company and gets his share…professional (maybe doctors, accountants and stuff but of course, they do have receive higher education already and they are the typical ones..I am sure some blue collar guy or gal who got laid off would not be able to switch into a professional career right away or in a month !), scientific and technical services (You think about it, maybe someone who works for a lab and gets paid now it become self-employed on call basis to take lab samples from clients at home or office…or some guy who work for a large electrical firm now become self-employed to fix appliances….But seriously, their income got HAMMERED, their family would be in PAIN for cutting off expenses and spending and its not fun at all…!!!

#123 Frustrated in Vancouver on 08.11.09 at 2:33 am

I am currently renting a $700,000 4 bedroom home in Burnaby for $2000/month (yep 35:1 ratio).

I have come to the conclusion that Vancouverites are simply not rationale. They are willing to pay whatever price as long as they can cover it by putting a rental suite in the basement and putting everyone in the house out to work. No other city will inconvenience themselves or sacrifice lifestyle to this extent. I guess this must be the land of milk and honey.

#124 miketheengineer on 08.11.09 at 6:50 am

I was turfed out of my engineering job in may. I have sent out over 500 resumes, went on the 3 week “job finding course that EI gives” have gone on about 8 interviews.

Guess what “nadda” for all that effort. So now after recieving my last rejection letter on Monday. I start all over again.

Tell Harper for me, that the recession is now over, but the greatest depression in well under way.

#125 conan on 08.11.09 at 10:22 am

Re: 115

Ok so you run your own business and you make something or other. What you do exactly is still a mystery so I will turn it into some kind of game.

My guess is high tech. You received venture capital at a time when Fart.com looked like the next big thing and investors were aplenty.

Due to very large economic forces 1000’s of high tech companies failed during the DOT- COM bust , but your business “ somehow” got traction and survived.

Whoop de do.

Look at the mayor of Ottawa

The latest wannabe NHL team owner.

I am working on a list of professions that most need to ditch the purple robes

1) Economists
2) High tech magnates
3)

Are you following me camera guy?

#126 Sanchez on 08.11.09 at 10:30 am

miketheengineer

I’m an engineer as well in the technology sector (aerospace). It is absolutely the worst profession to be in-I regret it now (7 years later).

#127 K-W Realtor on 08.11.09 at 11:06 am

Re. Stratford, I grew up in the area and still have family there. The manufacturing jobs continue to disappear. I spoke with a 50 year old cousin on the weekend whose job is in jeopardy. The stress and uncertainty were visible. I suspect he’s typical of many in that he left high school and went to work in a factory.
Re. comparisons to Flint, that’s just wrong. Stratford is a beautiful and unique city with considerably more to offer. Flint is the armpit of the earth and automotive is/was the whole story. Stratford has attracted retirees from the big cities. The local economy has traditionally relied on agriculture, automotive and tourism. The Stratford Festival brings the arts crowd and attendance is down. It has suffered due to a decline in American tourists having to deal with their economy, our higher dollar and tighter border crossing. Agriculture right now seems to be a mixed bag with the pork producers suffering. Going forward, Stratford will need to attract new businesses and I think it will succeed. Flint is in a freefall and comparisons should stop at the loss of aotomotive jobs.

#128 mortgage leads on 08.11.09 at 11:45 am

It is a good article showcasing the problems of unemployment. What is the biggest problem that we are facing today? undoubtedly unemployment. Recent surveys also blame this trend to be responsible for the un rest across the world.
Canadian labors taking the extreme step in stop looking for works. This is a serious problem and we request the governments to look at it with all the attention it requires.

#129 Make money on 08.11.09 at 11:55 am

Employment is the birth right. Un employemnt is the problem that we are facing. People love to make money. The frustration showed by the canadian workers by stopping to look for jobs tells us the story. We all must try to find a solution to this problem.

#130 miketheengineer on 08.11.09 at 12:04 pm

#123 – Sanchez

I don’t see any end in sight to this, no green grass. I try to be positive, but it is hard when you get invited to an interview, you get there, and it lasts a whole 10 minutes, when they find out you have no experience with concrete or buildings. Then they explain that they need someone “ready trained” to do the work. Duh, I have 15 years, but in a different field of engineering. No mercy. No job. Then you go home to the reality. Wife screaming cause the Line of Credit is maxed out, bills pilling up, and you turn on the TV, and see some “moron” who just bought some shack in Toronto for 200k over asking price. Then you see someone from the government, smiling and saying, Hey we are over the rought spot, everything is fine now. What a bunch of cow poop.

I try and stay positive, but it is getting very challenging now. Now I am shifting priorities for the next week. I am painting my home. Why you ask? To get ready to dump it on some other “moron”? The game is almost up….and many others are in the same situation.

If I just became a nurse, I would be laughing right now. Not enough of them around, and plenty of work. Unionized environment and good pay. Some are even working full time for one employer and have a 2nd job for when they are off. It takes several years of school and training, and the baby boomers are all in advanced stages of “need of care”. This is the most secure place to be, in my opinion.

DONT GO TO UNIVERSITY FOR ENGINEERING. WASTE OF TIME UNLESS YOU ARE GRADUATING FROM CIVIL.

#131 Sanchez on 08.11.09 at 1:46 pm

MIketheengineer….

perhaps we should exchange stories…what area of specialization are you?

#132 Sanchez on 08.11.09 at 2:11 pm

Miketheengineer…
Perhaps we can exchange stories (email). What is your are of specialization/sector?

#133 Makeorbreak on 08.11.09 at 2:39 pm

http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/07/real_estate/shrinking_home/index.htm

#134 jshum on 08.11.09 at 3:53 pm

Well I like mike still feel like a smuck.

In winnipeg the difference between the 2003 and 2009 (6 year) assessed values is averaging around 70-73 percent and I am pretty sure that is acurate. This is occuring even in the worse area of town. That is more than 10% (minus the mortgage rate) a year for doing nothing but borrow money.

I have been priced out. Even when the interest rates rise and if the price go down I believe I still will be priced out. I thought I finally found one that would be cheaper than my rent in the area that I want that I could pay off in 10-15 years but I saw that property too late.

The borrowers are being rewarded for their craziness and perhaps greed

J

#135 Industrial Guy on 08.11.09 at 6:02 pm

Sorry Conan. Youre wrong again.

We make a very low tech product. ….. but we do it in a very high tech way. Thats why 2009 has been a good year for us. As I said in my last post, we operate only in Canada and we sell only to Canadians.
“Somehow got traction”? You make it sound like luck Conan.
We did not receive any government start up funding or loans.

These days you better innovate or die. Fraser Beach followed this philosophy. Your Brothers in the RE Mafia tried to crush him. We’ll see how this court case turns out. Have you updated your resume?

#136 conan on 08.11.09 at 6:21 pm

Re 130

Ok so what are your marketing costs? Do you have sales people that you use to increase sales?

Maybe your product is sold in Canadian tire and you like the words “retail mark up” but dont like the words “sales commissions”.

BTW I am not in real estate. I would not know what to put on my resume even if I had to write one.

#137 steven rowlandson on 08.12.09 at 9:19 am

Should Federal or provincial governments subsidize real estate in any way? In my opinion absolutely not!
Government must focus on paying down their own debts and not contract any more obligations.
If home buyers and owners insist on taking foolish risks they ought to suffer alone for their folly should the error of their ways catch up with them. Double incomes for buying homes is insanity. Paying more than 3 times the mans annual income for a house is insanity.
Remember what the ancient greeks said. “Whom the gods would destroy they first make mad”.
Do not offend the gods.

Steven