The Italian job


In case you missed it, Chrysler’s gone paws-up. But this is no normal bankruptcy.  This is 2009. Rules are made up as governments go along. And money’s no object.

The automaker’s corporate failure will cleansed by Ottawa and Washington in order that one goal be accomplished: save jobs. Well, some jobs.

Shareholders were long ago reamed out. Politicians are taking the car company through bankruptcy court to ensure bondholders and other legitimate debtors and creditors are completely and remorselessly screwed. Then, without a vote going to the people’s representatives in either capital, $15 billion in public funds will be pumped into a new company which an Italian carmaker will effectively be given.

In return for pumping cash into a moribund outfit that crashed because it built too many cars people didn’t want, overpaid its workers and was run into the ground by millionaire managers, taxpayers will get equity. In Canada, according to PM Stephen Harper and Ontario preem Dalton McGuinty, the people will own 2%. That will cost $3.8 billion.

So, will anything be different going forward? What do Canadians get for spending $375,000 on every single job at Chrysler Canada? If there is no guarantee Chrysler will build new products, be run better, inspire buyers once again and suffer no more ruinous losses, would it not have been safer just to inject 375K into every autoworker’s RRSP?

Maybe. But that would be outrageous, and unfair to every other working Canadian who does not earn $75 an hour as these company employees did (the union says people on the line get $45, the rest is ‘all-in’ cost). Hey wait, that’s just about everybody! And I even hear most people who are laid off don’t collect 90% of their normal wages, as idled autoworkers do. No wonder these jobs are special.

It’s just a damn shame nobody asked taxpayers if this was okay.

But you know why.


#1 Reg on 04.30.09 at 9:55 pm

Well… 2% of nothing is nothing. So whoop de doo!

Also, the gov’t has now forced Chrsyler to Merge with Fiat. Fiat makes small cars. Small cars have never sold well in the U.S. So now Chrysler is merged with a co. that makes cars that won’t sell in the U.S. Those small cars that did sell in the U.S. never made any money. So, tell me how this helped Chrysler.

Our governments are hoping someone will catch the hail Mary pass!

Interesting times indeed.

#2 john m on 04.30.09 at 10:04 pm

A few more billions gone to the wind.What a slap in the face to every other out of work Canadian…and i wonder how many billions more they will pump into Chrysler since we now own a whole 2%…… part owners are Canadians now responsible for their pension plans etc? Democracy has become a joke in Canada, our futures are controlled by a few and their political aspirations.IMO! ……..i couldn’t be more disgusted!

#3 Kurt on 04.30.09 at 10:13 pm

Awww, come on Garth, I object to this too, but you’re over the top here. First, if it was just Chrysler jobs, the governments probably would have told them to get lost. But Chrysler is mostly just final assembly – the *real* impact is in the supply chain with all the small(er) companies that make the pieces, provide services, raw materials and so on. So while it may be 375k per line position, it’s a heck of a lot less than that per job. And nobody on that line *makes* 75 an hour – that number is arrived at by bundling retiree benefits in with wages and benefits for current employees. Yes, it’s a travesty that the governments are throwing this kind of money at this problem – *I* think they should have let both GM and Chrysler go Ch. 11/CCAA last fall – but spinning the facts to make a more attention-grabbing story is not something *you* need to do to hold our attention.

#4 Robert McClelland on 04.30.09 at 10:14 pm

“unfair to every other working Canadian who does not earn $75 an hour as these company employees did”

C’mon, Garth. You of all people should know that number is complete horsecrap.

#5 Ryan Daum on 04.30.09 at 10:20 pm

You’re right that Chrysler should sink on its own failures.

You’re wrong that autoworker’s make $75/hour.

Please refer to this article, and offer your rebuttal, if you have one:

#6 nonplused on 04.30.09 at 10:25 pm

Outstanding. Well, at negative real interest rates maybe it’s cheap. I hope they have a couple.hundy lying around to save my job.

#7 Phil on 04.30.09 at 10:31 pm

R they now considered Public Sector Employees?

#8 GenXer on 04.30.09 at 10:33 pm

So how exactly does a small European car maker with a negative 18 Billion dollar cash position fly in to save a flopping dinosaur? And we, as Canadians, have bought 2% of this new car company for a cool 3.8 billion, valuing the new company at $190 billion. Too bad no one asked me – I would have just bought RIM 5 times instead.

#9 Jonathan on 04.30.09 at 10:35 pm

How is Toyota, Honda, and Ford going to compete when they have to honour their debts and obligations, while GM and Chrysler does not? They simply get to go in to bankruptcy and receive a bailout. The other car companies will soon find that they cannot compete at the prices that GM and Chrysler, and will be forced in to bankruptcy themselves.

This happened to the air industry in Canada and the United States twenty years ago. And look, the entire industry is in and out of bankruptcy protection. Once your competitor goes in to it, you got no choice but to go into yourself.

Is this capitalism? No it is not.

#10 Gord on 04.30.09 at 10:43 pm

Hey I own a corporation. I think I will pay myself a multimillion dollar bonus this year, bankrupt my company, and then ask for my bailout. I deserve it. I think you do too! Welfare for corporations…isn’t Canada Great?

#11 Mikaroo on 04.30.09 at 10:48 pm

New meaning for the term “Fiat money”? (must be Italian for: “’cause the government says so’)

#12 Steve on 04.30.09 at 10:50 pm

They are special.

Barry O’Bailout!

We are doomed

#13 Munch on 04.30.09 at 11:09 pm

And, in the Believe It Or Not department, they are marketing these cars in South Africa, like nobody’s business!

Do you think they are dumping?

Do ya?

Damn shame!


#14 Ghost of Tom Joad on 04.30.09 at 11:14 pm

Harper does the bidding of globalist New World Order scum. They are shutting down the North American economy. Manufactured swine flu is yet another attack on us meant to put an end to the west.

If you haven’t seen it, check out the Obama Deception to see the evil that’s taking over:

#15 average joe on 04.30.09 at 11:24 pm

I find this hard to digest. I think it is important to save the auto industry, but I also think it is essential that the cost of saving it does not outweigh the cost to the citizens. If after the union came to the table and capilulated, yet the hedge fund holders won’t budge, it is about time we started directing our ire toward the money brokers, instead of the auto workers. Who really is holding the purse strings? Who is really going to be fiscally resonsible for this? Bankers (No), Taxpayers (Yes).

#16 Anon on 04.30.09 at 11:40 pm

I am not voting for Harper again. Enough said.

#17 Nostradamus jr on 04.30.09 at 11:44 pm

The U.S. & Canadian Govt’s must now lend similar billions to GM, Ford, Toyota, Hyandi, VW, Mercedes Benz, BMW et al.

Canadians must now support Chrysler products, otherwise you are not supporting the Country.

…This begins the road to “Nationalism”….then to “Protectionism/Cleansing of competitors”….then to…

…Google Nazi Third Reich…

zeig heil

#18 windsrchanging on 04.30.09 at 11:48 pm

Are you kidding me! 90% of wages when there’s no work. And $75 an hour, I understand this includes everything, benefits and the like and is probably earned through blood sweat and tears (Tongue in cheek). I made a choice 4 years ago not to buy big three product after 20 years of driving Ford or GM. Dollar for dollar the quality was no longer there. Does anyone really think this will improve now. Working as a Carpenter at $35 – $45 an hour how does one afford a $40k + truck and a 300k Mort. Its bad enough a vehicle is a losing proposition 3 secs after leaving the lot. I know I never received $75/hr service when I had to bring a unit in for warranty work or service when I did own. Looking in a Bargain finder or Buy/sell, imports are out numbered 5 -1 for used sale, understandably there is past market share, however I know lots of blokes with Toy’s racking up 300k on the odometer. Wonder why? Unfortunately I don’t think I will ever find a reason to return just like many of my associates and friends. I’m getting P’d Off, time to stop.

#19 Barb the proof reader on 05.01.09 at 12:01 am

“But you know why.

No, I do not know why Garth. Please es’plain why they didn’t ask us. There is nothing about the Harper gov’t that I understand. They do not make sense to me at all.

#20 TJMikey on 05.01.09 at 12:09 am

I would rather our Government invested in Charmin. At least their paper products have a value and use…oh wait, Chrysler paper could be used in the same manner.

I am one happy Canadian..cough, cough, shareholder.

The jokes just keep on coming.

Ayn Rand must be rolling in her grave.

#21 Dee on 05.01.09 at 12:11 am

Wonder how much in bonuses auto manufacturing management paid themselves over the years? Uses of company jets? What other ‘fringe’ benefits did they entitle themselves too? A majority of CEOs of Japanese companies make the same sacrifices as the workers on the floor. They don’t have access to private company jets. If there is a bonus for the CEO then there is a bonus for workers on the floor. Can the same be said for N.A. companies?

Pointing fingers at the union workers is unfair. Unions did their job and followed the capitalist model.

Governments should have let the company file for bankruptcy and screw all the stakeholders. That’s capitalism.

Rumours on the net for the last few weeks. 600k of foreclosed homes said to be on the banks ‘shadow’ books.

#22 Undeground in E-Town on 05.01.09 at 12:36 am

What else is there to say that Garth hasn’t said. I have always voted conservative because they were the supposed party that preached less government but for the first time i can honestly say there is no one left to vote for unless you’re into communism. My parent’s left the motherland because of communism. How ironic to an extent to be going back to communist type policies. The only positive is that perhaps the other parties would have thrown away more money to a company that simply can’t compete.

I am curious about the well-off investors out there deciding what to do with their money. Why invest in Ford or Toyota when you can now guarantee that their competitors will be propped up no matter how poorly they’re run. Less investment = less future jobs. This isn’t rocket science but still the autoworkers complain about how the rest of the country doesn’t understand their situation. I guess that explains how great a paying job it is being an autoworker relative to the overall common sense of some in the auto sector.

#23 Fool me once... on 05.01.09 at 12:43 am

It’s rather ironic isn’t it? Fiat, along with other European car makers were laughed out of North America because “they didn’t build em the good ol American way”.

#24 Mi Too Bitz on 05.01.09 at 12:43 am

Look at Harper pandering to Ontario. Pathetic. What a loser. He really is a loser and is an embarrassment both here and abroad.

About Chrysler…I wouldn’t buy one of their vehicles even if the company was guaranteed to be around for the next 100 years. They don’t do any vehicle in any class well. At least Ford has its trucks and GM has the Cadillac. Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge/?Eagle? are cars that they give away on the Price is Right. Absolute rubbish to look at and even worse to drive. I can’t believe we are bailing this company out for a few jobs and that Canadian taxpayers now have equity in the company. I feel cheap and dirty…I need to take a long shower.

#25 PKS on 05.01.09 at 12:56 am

Uh, that figure of $75K/hour comes from doing some mendacious math. Take total cost to employer from all employees, both current employees and those receiving a pension from one of the big 3 annually. Divide by number of curren employes. Divide by average # of hours worked per year.

So yeah, the total cost of “employees including pensions per hour” works out to be $75/hr, but let’s not pretend that the ordinary auto worker is grossing $150K/year.

#26 . . . fried eggs and spam . . . on 05.01.09 at 1:08 am

“. . . This is 2009. Rules are made up as governments go along. And money’s no object.”

Of course, this continues The Cycle of Nines — 1929 – 2009 and in-between.

Govts. are here to provide suckers (taxpayers) with smoke-and-mirrors blarney-talk. The fiat system will probably be replaced with Rice Krispies and Marmalade, although the latter two are quite delectable.

“. . . nobody asked taxpayers if this was okay.” — Whaddaya expect? That’s why the world is going to the Rice Krispies / Marmalade system of fair trade — at least there’s something to eat!

Ever tried munching on bogus $20 bills, washed down with loonies / toonies?
By peering into the looking glass and seeing the present world situation, the saying “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, bamboozle ’em with bullshit!” comes to mind, and there’s an awful lotof BS flying around these days (m$m junk).

So, for those who like to play stock markets, here are 12 stocks to watch in this pandemic garbage. —
More of the above that govts. love to spoonfeed sheeple trash with. —
Pandemic Profits! Step right up suckers! —

“The long history of government/pharmaceutical industry scams.

“These guys have tried to institute national flu vaccination programs before. The last time was 1976 (under Gerald Ford). The public recognized the foolishness and danger involved in accepting the government vaccine and rejected it. The much-threatened ‘pandemic’ never happened.”

. . . which leads to how govts. all over effectively ‘control’ their people. Martial law /dictatorship — almost one and the same.

The wheels are set in motion now. —

#27 Pococurante on 05.01.09 at 1:58 am

I wouldn’t buy a Chrysler, but now the government has bought part of the company for us. I could think of better uses for my tax dollars.
But yes, a brave step into a government owned market economy. Soon the Conservatives will look at nationalizing Air Canada, Petrocan and perhaps CN.
Are we to assume that 2% of a bankrupt company is worth $3.8 billion? As taxpayers we’re not getting much value for our blood money.

#28 Peter Pan on 05.01.09 at 3:30 am

So let me get this straight… for 3.8 billion C$, the Candian federal government will own a 2% equity stake in Chrysler whereas we could have bought 100% of GM for the same amount of money… I’m glad I have these financial geniuses taking care of my tax money…

#29 mikef on 05.01.09 at 4:51 am

Of course it makes sense.
It’s all about image.
Hey,look a us and our modern high tech economy.
Don’t go neggy Garth,Smile,Smile,Smile

#30 wjp on 05.01.09 at 5:34 am

“It’s just a damn shame nobody asked taxpayers if this was okay.

But you know why.”

Sure, we all know why because the majority of Canadians are outraged at corporate welfare. Bailouts will cost the taxpayers twice, once now, and again when these same dollars are needed for essential services are aren’t there.
This present socialist government masquerading as the CPC will spend us out of recession just like Bob Rae did in Ontario. Opps…seems to me that failed!!!
No Bailouts to any corporations period!

#31 David Bakody on 05.01.09 at 6:04 am

C’mon ….. it’s only money and money placed wisely insures votes or does it? Nothing in politics happens by accident ….. so there is the why. Case closed.

#32 Kash is King on 05.01.09 at 6:23 am

Fiat gets 20% for $0

Canada gets 2% for $3.8b

#33 ally ally oxycontin free on 05.01.09 at 6:45 am

Still to come is Jimby O’Flairity’s mag-lev train service between PeterButter ( Dal Maestro ) and O’Flairity’s very own. ( Oshawa-Whittleby )

Can you smell that new car dealership smell?

Ya better, else I’ll wind your odometer forward!

#34 Jonnay on 05.01.09 at 7:02 am

And let’s remember what happens each time American car companies get a bailout: they close one of our factories.

#35 D griffiths on 05.01.09 at 7:08 am

Ok, so some of you want to argue about what these autoworkers make per hour. Fine, instead of saying $75 per hour (which is legitimate when various benefits are factored), let’s just say they make a wage that is much much higher than that of average working Canadians for work that isn’t exactly “highly skilled” or requiring years of education. Also, you should consider the fact that these workers have generous pension packages….a luxury the majority of Canadians don’t have…and they don’t even have to contribute to their plans! I’m lucky enough to have a pension, but at least I contribute substantial sums to it each pay period!
Finally, when you look at the number of ridiculous benefits the CAW negotiated over the years (ie free tuition, free legal fees for divorce, extra paid time off..whatever you want to call it), this situation had failure written all over it. And don’t get me started about the crappy product they’ve been trying to sell to us! The marketplace, cruel as it may be, has given its verdict loud and clear on that issue!
This was a train wreck in the making for years, and I’m disgusted that the Canadian taxpayers are on the hook once again, for something that is doomed to fail!

#36 DG on 05.01.09 at 7:10 am

Why do people couch these actions in the language of “saving the auto industry”? The auto industry — the thriving, innovative and dynamic bit — has long ceased to include Chrysler. There are virtually no markets outside of North America where Chrysler’s products are considered to be even marginally acceptable.

I suppose Fiat could use Chrysler’s dealer network to get its cars into the US market faster, but I’m not sure how much truth is behind the media hype that people here are desperate to buy their small cars. The new Fiat 500 is cute, and apparently pretty good to drive, as is the Panda it’s based on. Then there’s the Bravo, which is about the size of a VW Golf / Rabbit. The rest of Fiat’s line-up is pretty crappy.

#37 JO on 05.01.09 at 7:35 am

Pathetic. If I were Toyota/Honda/Ford, I would pack up and leave. Go setup plants in SE Asia somewhere and let GM/Chrysler blow up as they will inevitably do. How can these politician clowns sit there with a straight face while Ford, Toyota, Honda have to compete with taxpayer sponsored competitors ? It seems like a matter of time before some clown in power passes some legislation to force/strongly incentivize consumers to favour GM/Chrysler over Ford and the imports…watch it.

Since when do we take tax payer money and “invest” it in this garbage ? …Industries go bust all the time and go BK and restructure. Airlines, steel, buggy whip..

I will never buy any GM or Chrysler products ever again. This seems like a setup to have the taxpayers suck up the inflated pensions of the auto workers. If this in fact is the case, what an outrage. The majority of taxpaying Canadians will not have a DB plan, and those who do will have much less than these GM/Chrysler people. There will be inevitable cuts in pension payments for most pensions, but to think taxpayers should cough up money to “invest” in the most mediocre companies and then possibly have to bail out their pensions is disgusting, absolutley pathetic. Bastards.

#38 Get it Right on 05.01.09 at 7:39 am

It may cost the company $75/hour to keep the worker, however, workers don’t take home that much money.

So? They get it in benefits and time off. Not all pay is monetary. — Garth

#39 ally ally oxycontin free on 05.01.09 at 8:04 am

All the male fishies are shouting, “Get offa my tits, Mikey Wallace!”

Male fish become feminized

Harbour still polluted despite cleanup efforts

Mikey D. Wallace takes full credit for the corrective action(s) of the Feds, with Birdy [ BOO! ] Baird, in tow.

On October 14, “Why you should vote to re-elect Mike Wallace and the Conservative Party of Canada

Mike delivers results for Burlington with $30 Million for cleaner water.”

2007: A year in review—Ottawa’s accomplishments—
Mikey Wallace

“Finally, I was able to deliver on a very important
environmental issue for our community. I have been aware of the poor quality of water coming from Hamilton Harbour/ Burlington Bay for many years and it has been a great concern of mine.

Randle Reef has been identified as the hottest spot for pollution in the Great Lakes system on the Canadian side.

I invited Minister of Environment John Baird to tour the area this past summer and see the problem first hand. As a result, the minister committed $30 million to clean up Randle Reef. This represents one-third of the cost of the project and we are waiting for the City of Hamilton to complete the financial partnership between the federal, provincial and municipal governments.

I am confident that 2008 will be as [ ? productive and rewarding ? ] as 2007.”

Mikey and Birdy [ BOO! ] Baird blew $30 Million!

Oh well, O’Flairity said, ‘mistakes will happen.’ But that was after the stimulus program, wasn’t it?

#40 Ritenote on 05.01.09 at 8:41 am

It may cost the company $75/hour to keep the worker, however, workers don’t take home that much money.

So? They get it in benefits and time off. Not all pay is monetary. — Garth

Benefits packages in most large companies basically double the wage of the average hourly worker…so we can assume the average auto worker is making about $37.50 an hour + benefits (not $75./hour) – a decent middle-class wage by today’s standards… We all know that the $75/hour figure is quoted by those who wish the average autoworker to be viewed as pampered, spoiled, overpaid. Why is it only autoworkers whose benefits are included in any discussion of hourly wage? In order to skew opinion against the CAW?…anyone interested in the long-term health of the middle class in Canada, might want to give a second thought to vilifying autoworkers…

#41 Anonymous on 05.01.09 at 8:44 am

Since the government is involved in running companies now, they need to go even further and force union employees to spend that money buying new cars.

See, when the government gets involved, problems get solved.

#42 windsrchanging on 05.01.09 at 8:46 am


Fix It Again Tories!

#43 hagbard on 05.01.09 at 8:49 am

There’s three billion taken out of the productive economy and given to the unproductive failed economy. Maybe they saved a few thousand jobs, they’ve killed thousands more by not letting the markets operate and produce new opportunities.

#44 PTDBD on 05.01.09 at 8:57 am

Canadian Banks have now changed their accounting rules away from mark to market. That’s so they can keep their world status.

Canadian Federal Government will not have a budget in the near future, or maybe ever. That’s so they can keep their impeccable fiscal record.

China government will not allow foreign news service to publish any DATA that would be detrimental to the economy.

Just scrunch your eyes real tight and all will be perfectly allright.

#45 Da HK Kid on 05.01.09 at 8:57 am

C’mon kids, the cost of a worker is the cost of a worker. $75/hr is the cost plain and simple. It has nothing to do with how much they make or take home. Each loaded cost is calculated here and what it would take to replace that worker.

Furthermore, the autoworker will cost us all even more when then find themselves not only unemployed but UNEMPLOYABLE! Then we get to inherit them one way or another government driven or not it’s coming out of our pocket.

The complacent three basically were done for over the last two decades. Legacy costs carried forward for over 50 years and the worst fit and finish with designs that just wanna make you puke didnt phase you?

The Japanese nailed it all down with a $54 loaded labor cost. The Chinese will do it for $35 and the Indonesians for $25 with a pop reaching 250 Million!

This is only an overdue scenario that is weeding out the companies that cannot compete and just the beginning for the car companies along with everyone else who is getting hammered by the bubbles bursting around us.

Having said that, I owned a few sweet MOPARS in my younger days but moved on!

#46 Another Albertan on 05.01.09 at 9:00 am

Who wants to bet that Fiat will rebadge the PT Cruiser as a Furrarri* in order to take advantage of all the slack-jawed North American consumers?

“Forget the recession! You can still afford one of the world’s premiere brands!”


* yes, I know it’s spelled Ferrari.

#47 Denis on 05.01.09 at 9:05 am

I like your comment about the RRSP contribution. Here’s another take on “patriotic retirement” that has been going around the e-mail forward circuit:

This is from an article in the St. Petersburg Times newspaper, recently.

The Business Section asked readers for ideas on “How Would You

Fix the Economy?”

This guy nailed it:

Dear Mr. President,

Patriotic retirement: There are about 40 million people over 50 in the work force; pay them $1 million apiece severance with stipulations:

1) They leave their jobs. Forty million job openings – unemployment fixed.

2) They buy NEW American cars. Forty million North American cars ordered – auto industry fixed.

3) They either buy a house or pay off their mortgage- housing crisis fixed.

All this and it’s still cheaper than the ‘bailout’.

#48 Disappointed Canadian on 05.01.09 at 9:07 am

Our government is the greatest FOOL. I can’t believe how idiot they are. We voted them and they did poor job. Pity!

#49 Rob in Onterrible on 05.01.09 at 9:09 am

Everyone here is mising the point. The bailout of Chrysler and maybe in 1 month GM rewards the losers and punishes the winners. Toyota and Honda get nothing while the poorly run, over-unionized places get the cash prize.

Gerald Celente is right. This is not capitalism, it is the merger of State and Corporate power as defined by Mussolini. Benito Mussolini called it fascism…

#50 KenCan on 05.01.09 at 9:13 am

Garth or anyone else,
is there some benchmark purchase price per square foot for residential houses in GTA, especially mississauga?
Any links on approximations and trends in GTA would be nice.

thank you

#51 ally ally oxycontin free on 05.01.09 at 9:14 am

”Neon signs a-flashin’, taxi cabs and buses passin’ through the night

A distant moanin’ of a train seems to play a sad refrain to the night

A rainy night in Peterborough, such a rainy night in Peterborough

Lord, I believe it’s rainin’ all over the world

I feel like it’s rainin’ all over the world”

With apologies to Ray Charles…

Dammit, I bin waitin’ here at this here station for hours. When will that train arrive? Nobody around here to ask, either. At last, somebody’s coming … I’ll ask. “How can I get to Peterborough from here?”

You can’t, because there’s no connection from this station. I find it more than a little odd, your being here. This station has been closed for years. I wouldn’t have stopped at all if I hadn’t seen you lighting up.

Peterborough awarded high-speed rail

Toronto transit officials upset, surprised as budget promises service to city of 80,000

“It’s expected to cost about $150 million to restore the rail bed and tracks to Peterborough, based on a CP estimate, plus the cost of a new station and equipment.

CP, which owns the track and operates GO’s Milton line, hasn’t even figured out how the train headed north out of Union Station will make the switch to an eastbound track, south of Lawrence Ave. near the Don Valley, said spokesperson Michel Spenard. The two aren’t linked.

Back before the old Peterborough run was eliminated, it stopped in places like Cavan, Dranoel, Manvers, Pontypool, Burketon, Myrtle, Dagmar and Claremont, as well as stations within the GTA such as Locust Hill, Agincourt and Leaside.

Spenard couldn’t say where the new train might stop or how often it would run. “The furthest I could go is, “We’re reviewing the budget and we’re looking at what kind of effect this would have on our operations.”

VIA spokesperson Catherine Kaloutsky said, “What this means to us at this point at time I can’t say.”

From the back of Dal Maestro’s envelope:

•Nine hundred riders is the minimum number who would be served by the Peterborough link, according to Dal Maestro, Peterborough’s rookie MP, who is being credited locally for the strong push that got Flaherty’s support.

•Based on GO’s prices, he suggests a monthly pass for the 60- to 90-minute trip would cost about $500.

•Wow, what a revenue-generator! That’s a whole $450,000. We could certainly run a very quick ROI on that high volume.

… Sounds like another Pi$$eroo to me.

#52 Signal Loss on 05.01.09 at 9:24 am

The annihilation of the debt-holders followed by their lambasting in the political sphere will not encourage them to participate should Chrysler 3.0 (4?) find public funds drying up. I know it’s fashionable to hate the financial sector right now but our leaders are supposed to be sophisticated people. That aspect could’ve been handled better.

#53 POL-CAN on 05.01.09 at 9:37 am

I have never owned a GM/Chrysler/Ford due to the quality factor. As a former auto mechanic I should know.

However I do not think it is right to blame the assembly workers for the quality of these vehicles. After all they just put the crap together. We can not blame the parts manufacturers either as they make the parts to spec.

In the end it is always managements fault for not demanding a better product from the designers and better quality from the engineers.

We have a culture of placing blame on others instead of considering that we might be contributing to the problem. This is at a perverse level in the corporate world.

#54 Grantmi on 05.01.09 at 9:45 am

#16Anon – I am not voting for Harper again. Enough said.

Anon… you don’t think Lying Jack or Iggy wouldn’t have done the same thing! COME ON!

Take Mr. bobble head and give it a shake..

“Move along… nothing to see here!?!”

#55 Kurt on 05.01.09 at 9:58 am

From $38 Get it right:

“It may cost the company $75/hour to keep the worker, however, workers don’t take home that much money.

So? They get it in benefits and time off. Not all pay is monetary. — Garth”

From the article cited by #5 Ryan:

“- The per-hour expense associated with changes in pension funding status and changes in the actuarial assumptions used to estimate the cost of retiree health benefits. These factors (the ups and downs of the stock market, for example) cause enormous swings in the cost of these so-called “legacy costs” from one year to the next. And at any rate, these legacy costs have nothing to do with the people actually working in factories today.”

In addition, the number of retirees is large compared to the work force because of the combined effects of outsourcing and automation, and so you have situation where substantial costs get attributed to the current work force that the individuals will never receive as a benefit. It *would* be fair to say that the cost of the *union*, including members both past and present, is something around $75/hr. Yes, the current members get paid too much. No, they don’t make $75/hr.

#56 ally ally oxycontin free on 05.01.09 at 9:59 am

“WASHINGTON – The U.S. government will likely lose much of the $4-billion loan it gave Chrysler LLC at the end of last year as part of its bankruptcy case, officials said today.

The Bush administration was unable to secure its loans to any assets, and will recover only as much as any other unsecured debtors. It also may lose part of the $1.5 billion lent to Chrysler Financial backed by auto loans.

The Obama administration also said new Chrysler will be funded through a total of $10.5 billion in loans, with $8.08 billion from the United States and $2.42 billion from the Canadian government.”$4B+Chrysler+loan

If you review it from the Canadian standpoint, Tony Clement says the original $1 Billion loan advanced in December now forms part of the overall $3.775 Billion deal.

To me it doesn’t compute at all. If the U.S. government is credited with an 8% stake in Chrysler, ( for $8.08 Billion ) and Canada is credited with a 2% stake, ( for $3.775 Billion ) for a total contribution by all governments of ( $11.855 Billion ) that MUST MEAN the loan of $1 Billion is secured by a pledge of assets.

See Clement’s remarks statement at 3:40” of the tape. I don’t want to “quibble,” but it does seem, if the deal is not successful, existing Chrysler Canada assets would be sold at fire sale prices.

#57 ally ally oxycontin free on 05.01.09 at 10:10 am

Canadian plants to shut down: CAW

Kristine Owram—( CP ) –Toronto Star, Friday, May 1, 2009

“Chrysler LLC said Thursday it will temporarily stop most of its vehicle production until it has completed a technology-sharing alliance with Fiat – a cornerstone of its restructuring plan. The shutdown is effective Monday and could last between 30 and 60 days.

CAW president Ken Lewenza said that Chrysler Canada told him it plans to keep its plants operating until it runs out of parts, but he expects them to shut down “almost immediately,” putting approximately 9,400 workers out of a job for as long as two months.

“We’ll continue to run our plants as far as the supply chain will take us, but the industry is so integrated that we will be down almost immediately following the U.S. plants going down, no question,” Lewenza said in an interview.

He said Chrysler’s major suppliers stopped production as soon as they heard the company was filing for bankruptcy protection under Chapter 11 in the United States, leaving Chrysler’s Canadian operations in the lurch.


Is there sufficient in the Chrysler Canada SUB fund to permit SUB to kick in and receive the EI supplement to maintain the 80% level of remuneration during the 30 to 60-day shutdown period?

#58 Alberta Ed on 05.01.09 at 10:12 am

Great… a union and the government(s) are now in charge: two dysfunctional entities focussed on (1) wages and (2) votes. What a way to run a car company!

Sheeple arrived in the mail yesterday (autographed, thanks!). Looking forward to a leisurely read over the weekend, between bouts of sobbing.

#59 Maurice on 05.01.09 at 10:12 am

Garth: You must of fallen off of the bike an hit your head. Is this the same Garth who wrote the tribute to “brothers an sisters” to stand proud against Wall Street? $34 an hour in taxible income. $9 non taxable the rest was legasy costs not carried by the newbie offshore assembly plants. The Detroit three and the Harperites wanted $19 reduction in costs. How can that come out of $34. Wake up!!

#60 Dan in Victoria on 05.01.09 at 10:14 am

I would have rather saved the Avro Arrow,and all the related technogly.

#61 Give-Me-A-Break on 05.01.09 at 10:17 am

This is ridiculous no matter how you look at it. Nothing makes sense anymore.

I, for one, am sick and tired of working hard so that our government can take so much from me and my family and continually waste it. I quit! I’m just not going to be as productive as I once was. I’m going to, by choice, reduce our household income to a level that I don’t pay tax (or very little), qualify for numerous benefits and can soak up the sun.

We are rapidly reaching the point of hyper-inefficiency where no one has ANY incentive to run a productively viable business.

#62 McSteve on 05.01.09 at 10:26 am

This morning, I’m going walk into my local dealer, demand an employee/major shareholder discount on a shiney new Jeep and then sell my shares this afternoon.

This should get me close to getting a shiny new Jeep for about $5,000, right?

Cerberus bought the whole mess for $7.4 billion in 2007 and the company has tanked from there. $3.8 Billion should get us a 100% stake at today’s prices.

#63 Greg on 05.01.09 at 10:27 am

re: #38 Get it Right –
Nobody said $75/hour was take home pay; it’s simply a relative number. If somebody makes $50,000, or $100,000 per year – we all know that’s not take home.

#64 $fromA$ia on 05.01.09 at 10:52 am

Canadian Bank stocks look like they have run out of gas, watching Gold Stocks earn 1% so far. The spot price is 885 and sitting but the Gold Mining stocks are getting attention!?? Look’s like a shift in investment now for some investers in the TSX. Could the TSX bear rally be at a near end?

#65 Give-Me-A-Break on 05.01.09 at 10:57 am


What I would give for a company pension right about now…

Those “workers don’t take home that much money”.Give me a break… You truly do live in La-La Land. Tell the employer who wrote the cheques that.(although they might not all have had the employees name on them they were to the benefit of the employees).

And now… now Joe Taxpayer is writing those cheques. And they criticize REALTORS ?!? Humph, I give up.

#66 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 05.01.09 at 10:58 am


To me the real question is how many millions in tax breaks were given by Oddawahaha and Ontario to Daimler and Cerbreus? I want them BACK!

Companies like Cerbreus, who know NOTHING about the automotive business, come pouncing in demanding all sorts of special treatments by governments to protect their investment, then walk away unscathed.

As to FIAT (Fix It Again Tony) I am not impressed, but Chrysler has some of the best designed vehicles available. We did our part by trading in our 2007 Dodge Caliber and buying a new 2009 Dodge Caliber the end of March. Love it and it has improvements over the 2007 while the costs remained the same. Only reason for the trade was to keep our vehicle in the bumper to bumper warranty and maximize the trade-in value at the optimum time. We had absolutely no problems with the 2007, and in fact, it got better with age performance wise because the power train is so precise it takes about 15,000 kms to fully break in. At 39 MPG Highway it was easy on the wallet too.

If governments actually wanted to protect companies they would qualify these investment firms on competency to run them BEFORE they are allowed to gain control. Enough of ‘Money Talks’ being the only deciding factor in allowing foreign companies to affect our workers.

As a point of interest, the Dodge Brothers were the manufacturers of the majority of parts for the original Ford Model ‘T’ in 1904, and then they went out on their own, eventually being bought by Chrysler in 1928. They produced the first ‘Bullet Proof’ gas powered trucks for the military as well. And their pickups were truly ‘Job Rated’

Their Minivan is legendary now and with the Stow-Away seating and great mileage they remain the type leader. Chrysler finally dumped the Plymouth brand a few years back.

BTW, Kevin Newman on Global National needs to check his history. He stated last night that this is the first time an American Big Three has filed bankruptcy. WRONG, Chrysler filed Chapter 11 back in 1980-82 under Lee Iaacocca’s reign as CEO, restructured and came back STRONG bringing out the Minivan shortly thereafter which met the needs of millions of families then and still does. Ford cancelled their minivan because they could not compete with Chrysler’s good design and price. GM tried competing and their minvan is the worst design I have ever been in. The difference was Chrysler let their passenger car people design the minivan and the othered has their truck people design their’s.

Then Daimler took control and walked away, but did bring some great engineering from Mercedes-Benz that is quite recognizable in Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep vehicles today to those who know Mercedes-Benz as well.

Frank Stronach should have had assistance from Oddawahaha to make Chrysler a Canadian company, but oh no, not with the ‘free-market hands-off’ attitude prevalent a few years ago when the time was proper to deal with this impending financial FUBAR.

#67 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 05.01.09 at 11:04 am

I also find it odd how so many support the Crown Corporation status of Air Canada, Canadian National and Pacific Railroads, Canada Post (The Do As Little As Possible so-called mail system that is a JOKE), and a myriad of other Crown companies, but get all pissy when it comes to automotive companies that we all depend on for our personal transportation.

I would think Canadians would have learned the lesson when Diefenbaker destroyed A.V. Roe? Guess not?

#68 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 05.01.09 at 11:06 am

#36 DG

Chrysler does quite well in Europe, the Caliber especially and there it has a diesel engine option.

#69 Davinci on 05.01.09 at 11:10 am

You see you don’t get a vote under a paper money system the government will never run out of money they can give.

The only way to solve this is to have gold and silver as money. Money in the hands for the people allows us to vote with our wallets.

That’s why…

“Gold in the hands of the people is an enemy of the state.” – Adolf Hitler

So hold on to your dollars slave the government can always make more to buy whatever it wants. Isn’t that the definition of a slave, a person that works for free?

If he government gets free money and you work hard for it does that not make you a slave?

#70 bug eyes on 05.01.09 at 11:15 am

I think it is better to let those stupid companies crash and burn. Let’s start fresh and make intelligent cars.
With the planet tanking, peak oil is passed, pollution I cannot for the life of me understand why we dont have smaller more efficient cars with hatch backs.
SUV’s should be outlawed.
WE need:
4 doors for an again population and pooling. Trailer hitches in case you need to tow something. Tinted windows as the ozone is gone. Standards as they are more efficient. Not so low to the ground – people are getting older.
Electric and solar panels on the roof. And SMALL!!! but space efficient. Built in intelligent design bike carriers.
Design the car seats to they can be folded down flat in case you need to sleep in the car.
Tall order? I dont think so, just channel thinking away from male “me better/bigger/richer thinking.

I find it interesting that in spite of the scientific community has said we must lower emissions that those with the money and means (usually those earning more money which means they got an education and should know better) are the ones that bought the SUV’s.

Yes, by all means – let the big ones crash and burn. They are dinosaurs and dont fit into todays reality anymore. They had years and millions and brains (maybe not) to come up with a progressive car, but have chosen not too. Put them out of their misery and let new fresh clean blood in, the oldies are too senile.

Do not give them ANY money! This is totally against my common sence.

#71 The Machinery Guy on 05.01.09 at 11:21 am

In this bankruptcy, parts suppliers are reamed out. A lot of these firms will be unable to weather months without any money flowing in.

All of the Detroit Three have been financing this nightmare by stretching payment terms to their suppliers. 90+ day terms are not that unusual. So, if you’re living on your line of credit, as many in the supply chain are. This news that all your receivables have now vanished or if youre lucky, are partially protected by some government / industry support initiatives. This bankruptcy is not great news.

Parts and assemblies suppliers to Chrysler must be wondering ..where is my bailout? Yesterday was not a good day. A 60 day shutdown is an eternity when you’re surviving on the margins of the auto industry. I would expect this announcement by Chrysler will be met with a flurry of company layoffs and bankruptcies all over Southern Ontario. In automotive businesses all over Southern Ontario owners were greeted with the same words this morning ….”The bank is on the phone”’

Garth, banks in Canada will be absorbing a lot losses over the next few months as these parts suppliers default on their lines of credit. I guess they could cover some of the losses by raising mortgage rates and bank fees.

#72 Eduardo on 05.01.09 at 11:33 am

All you people who think that Harper wanted to bail out auto-nation Ontario are forgetting the story.

Don’t you remember who didn’t want to do any bailing out/deficit spending until the Liberals/NDP/Bloc coalition?

Then, as soon as they start spending, it’s the same people who criticize the spending. HELLOOO???

If the Conservatives had their way, there would be no support to Ontario for the autosector and the only reason there’s been aid is because of public/NDP/union/Quebecer outcry.

#73 Dan on 05.01.09 at 11:34 am

I won’t complain about autoworker’s pay. Take a look at your monthly cheque you get from the government for your time in office. Talk about Freedom 45.

My MP’s pension is $26,000 per year, which I pass on to others. — Garth

#74 Havoc on 05.01.09 at 11:39 am

So? They get it in benefits and time off. Not all pay is monetary. — Garth

True, but the real problem with this metric is the inclusion of changes in pension funding status. While this is a legitimate cost, it is entirely dependent on the markets and will fluctuate accordingly.

I’d be curious to know what this metric looked like pre-market meltdown. It seems me that this stat was offered at an opportune time, and to further a specific agenda. But why have context when we can have mis-informed populist rage?!?

#75 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 05.01.09 at 11:43 am

Here are the details of the Chrysler Bankruptcy.

Chrysler files for bankruptcy

The employees whose jobs may be most immediately in danger are the 3,400 workers of Chrysler Financial, which provides loans to Chrysler customers and its dealers.

That unit is essentially going out of business. As part of the reorganization, lending will now be provided by GMAC, the finance arm jointly owned by General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) and current Chrysler parent Cerberus Capital Management. (Cerberus will end up with no stake in Chrysler once the bankruptcy is complete and is in the process of cutting its stake in GMAC to less than 15%.)

At least Cerberus is getting kicked out of both Chrysler and GMAC…GOOD RIDDANCE!

BTW, we had our 2007 financed through Chrysler Financial, but the dealer got us a much better rate through RBC. RBC, TD Canada Trust, and Scotia are all on board and providing low interest financing.

No more talking to someone in India who cannot even speak English. How refreshing! That also raised the serious question of why do people in India have access to our financial information? Where is the Privacy Commissioner? Hmmmmmmm?

#76 @Garth 2 on 05.01.09 at 11:44 am

Garth, allow me to say, you are being rather ignorant here. There is no individual automotive line worker grossing $150K, nor receiving such total compensation in benefits. That figure has been debunked over and over (even in the comments here) and shown to overstate earnings by almost 100%.

Although I normally side with the Garth “general theory”, taking up the role of a media sheep repeating a bogus statistic does not support the theory very well. Worse, you’re not even collecting ad revenue for your trouble.

On the flip side, auto worker have wages comparable or higher than many other private sector workers. Does this prove that they are overpaid? Or does it prove that collective bargaining works more effectively for workers than a laissez-faire divide-and-conquer mercenary approach?

If the middle class is shrinking, why argue for lower wages in the auto sector? Better to use it as an argument for fairer wages in other professions.

Further, government support of Chrysler et al. shows to the market that all the stops will be pulled out to save big business. The rally continues. If you are advocating selling a house, and moving into equities, you would seem to also support the bail-out motive.

Your post uncovers some baffling contradictions.

#77 Boomer42 on 05.01.09 at 11:51 am

Total percent of auto works wages is 7%. Maybe we should find out where the other 93% goes. I do not think 7% spent on wage and bennifts is what is causing the problems.

#78 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 05.01.09 at 11:57 am

The facts on CEO compensation.

CEO pay dives in a rough 2008

Here is a prime example of how totally and insanely assinine it has gotten.

Take the apparent 2008 compensation champion for CEOs of Standard & Poor’s 500 companies: Chesapeake Energy’s (CHK) Aubrey McClendon. On paper, his compensation totaled $112 million, including a $77 million bonus that was more than three times larger than any other CEO’s and came in a year when the natural gas producer’s stock fell 58%.


Here is a sortable list of these CEO’s pay.

Executive Compensation 2008

#79 Jake on 05.01.09 at 12:03 pm

Hopefully with all of this money the folks at Chrysler, Dodge, etc, will be able to hire a design team with some vision. Is it just me, or have they really missed the boat with their cars and trucks in recent years. With few exceptions they have been total eye sores. I mean seriously, the PT Cruiser? What is that, some kind of funeral car for hobbits? Remember the limited edition one with the wood panel veneer along the side? How ugly was that? Then again, I guess you have to fit in if you are going to drive it into the Shire.

Hey Steve from yesterday,
My advice to encourage the epidural comes not from experience as a med student but from experience as a father. I have been through two deliveries and the one with the epidural was a lot easier on my wife (and on me for that matter). We learned through experience, so I am passing the advice on to you. Chris in England, drop the feminist BS. Hell, even when his only intention is to alleviate suffering the man is still acting out of line. It’s time to stop singing along with Alanis Morissette’s “You outta know” and get to know a man. They’re not all that bad.

#80 Ryan Daum on 05.01.09 at 12:04 pm

“So? They get it in benefits and time off. Not all pay is monetary. — Garth”

Then why don’t you be fair and perform the same analysis on other professions?

$75/hour is a nonsense propaganda factoid thrown around the press as part of various campaigns. It doesn’t serve you well, and certainly isn’t good journalism, to buy into it and propagate it. It isn’t the truth, and it’s vindictive and mean.

In any case, why are we running down what other people make for a living? Why stir up envy and resent between people who work for a living while banks and hedge funds get blank cheques from the government?

Do you want everyone to make what a Chinese factory worker makes? … because that will be the end result of this lowest-common-denominator “I don’t have a pension, so nobody else should” nonsense.

#81 Got A Watch on 05.01.09 at 12:05 pm

C’mon buy a Fiasler!

There is nothing better than a car designed by Fiat and the UAW/CAW.

You will have to get a committee to approve starting the engine. Then file a grievance to leave the parking lot. Get permission from a union shop steward to fill it up.

It won’t start in cold, mild, warm or hot weather. The rest of the year, it will be fine.

The gas mileage will be incredible – you burn no gas when you are pushing a broken down car.

The trim will be an attractive tri-colour theme, remarkably similar to the Italian flag. The built in oven in the trunk is so convenient for cooking. The drink holders are built to hold wine glasses.

Where do I line up to buy one?

#82 Zeba on 05.01.09 at 12:12 pm

I was stupid not to listen comments about Chrysler before I bought one. I owned a Chrysler Concorde 2002 Limited. Fully loaded, nice car inside out, loved it! Spacious, white leather interior. It was only 3 years old and only 65K. Transmission’s gone wild. Went to a dealership, paid a thousand dollars for repairs. Broke down next day after I got it back. Had a HUGE fight with Downsview Chrysler involving any possible means. No avail. Fixed it (another grand). Sold it to a fan.
Would NEVER, EVER go with a Chrysler.

#83 Details on 05.01.09 at 12:20 pm

Some numbers to chew on.

• Chrysler has 40,000 employees in the US plants
• Has 140,000 at dealerships
• Has 104,000 at suppliers.

Total employees affected is 284,000

• In October USA lost 255,000 jobs
• In November USA lost 533,000 jobs
• In December USA lost 540,000 jobs
• In January USA lost 598,000 jobs.
• In February USA lost 651,000 jobs
• In March USA lost 663,000 jobs

Total of 3,244,000 jobs.

How is 284,000 “catastrophic”? Less than 10% of what has been lost in the last 6 months alone

Thank God we spent $3.8 billion to POSSIBLY save this company. If it failed I am suree it would be all over.


#84 Vankouver on 05.01.09 at 12:41 pm

Awesome. Garth you pretty much describe here what I precisely dislike about the “groupthink” of unions as well as the corporate faces behind Chrysler and GM. The sense of entitlement that has been emminating from these groups is exactly what I’m fed up with. Spoiled brats. Time to get back to the time where education and training were comparable to wages, and loyal employees are making realistic (not stratospheric) wage gains in their chosen careers for their years of devotion. OH and while I have my pitchfork out, it is worthwhile to point out that years ago GM’s Saturn division had the leading technology on the electric car. If they had even implmented the technology just a little bit, which Toyota was WILLING to pay for, I’d betcha this complete gongshow could’ve been downgraded to a three ring circus.


#85 Roundedge on 05.01.09 at 12:57 pm

May I suggest an alternative explanation?

Perhaps no one in government, including Harper, Obama, etc, actually believes that Chrysler has a future and this deal is not really about the re-building of a company, but rather all about an orderly winding down.

The other, successful auto-makers must be very worried indeed about the shock to their supply chains that a Chrysler collapse would inflict. As well, what would happen to the North American car market if all that un-sold Chrysler and GM inventory was suddenly dumped on it? I suspect prices and margins would take years to recover and such a scenario keeps the Honda and Toyota boys from sleeping soundly.

It is very difficult to see how Fiat can be expect to realistically save Chrysler. Is this Itanlian born Canadian raised Fiat CEO (his name escapes at the moment) really that amazing? I’m thinking our tax money is chaos insurance and nothing more.

#86 wjp on 05.01.09 at 1:02 pm

Now maybe someone can explain the stock market up over 183 points as I write this…I realize that the market reflects how things might be some time ahead, but with half the jobs being lost in the bailouts, tax money being thrown down the toilet, daily unemployment figures rising, not to mention how many are being asked to take “Rae Days”…how is this going to increase consumer spending, people without jobs aren’t buying new cars, people taking pay cuts have less disposable income, how are things going to look better in six months?

#87 Eduardo on 05.01.09 at 1:10 pm

I don’t like the bailouts at all. The unions should be obliterated and they should be paid what the market would pay them.

If there’s towns full of unemployed “auto” workers. and tonnes of other workers who have all the required skills to become “auto” workers then the market price for that labour isn’t even close to what it is.

It’s not about the equity stake, they could care less about that. It’s a means to keep some people employed although what they should do is tell the unions:

“Ok CAW, so here’s how it’s going to go. There’s 100 of you in this room, either 50% of you are unemployed or all of you can take a 50% pay cut.”

#88 wjp on 05.01.09 at 1:12 pm

Consumer Insolvencies to reach new levels…

#89 Jeff Smith on 05.01.09 at 1:17 pm

#1 Reg on 04.30.09 at 9:55 pm

Well… 2% of nothing is nothing. So whoop de doo!

Also, the gov’t has now forced Chrsyler to Merge with Fiat. Fiat makes small cars. Small cars have never sold well in the U.S. So now Chrysler is merged with a co. that makes cars that won’t sell in the U.S. Those small cars that did sell in the U.S. never made any money. So, tell me how this helped Chrysler.

Our governments are hoping someone will catch the hail Mary pass!

Interesting times indeed.

I thought small cars (honda civic, tercels etc) sell very well in North America.

#90 . . . fried eggs and spam . . . on 05.01.09 at 1:34 pm

Thanks and courtesy of Dee.

Not only is this menage a trois a pointless exercise in futility, these articles remain as rock solid as clouds in the sky, farts in the wind.

First, check the date — April 8, 2008. Talk about telling forth the future, and how fast the karmic speed of time has become! . . . followed by the second side . . . . . . and the third segment of the eternal triangle . . .
Combined with #17 Nostradamus jr on 04.30.09 at 11:44 pm, and the link I supplied earlier re: Martial law, one can clearly read between the lines and see where this continent is headed.

Now I understand why Harper & co. called an unnecessarily early election. Almost everyone on Wall St. and Bay St. — Paulson, Carney, Bernanke, dubya. cheney et al knew well in advance this fiscal downturn was happening, did nothing to prevent and ultimately have profited handsomely from it, and Harper ended up gaining 19 more seats in the HoC.

“3/ …This begins the road to “Nationalism”….then to “Protectionism/Cleansing of competitors”….then to…Google Nazi Third Reich…zeig heil”

“It took corporate media swine flu hysteria to ram through a martial law bill in Massachusetts. S18 gives the Governor the power to authorize the deployment and use of force to distribute supplies and materials and local authorities will be allowed to enter private residences for investigation and to quarantine individuals.”

Which is nothing more than a worthless excuse to further maintain control of sheeple. Guess who controls the m$m?

#91 Opportunity on 05.01.09 at 1:35 pm

Another example of our PM following the process set by the US. No real thinking on the part of our government, just follow, follow, follow.

#92 wjp on 05.01.09 at 1:36 pm

David Wolf, the bear on Canadian Real Estate according to some, is leaving Merill to join the Bank of Canada?
Is this to silence his predictions?

#93 Paul Fist In Your Face on 05.01.09 at 1:41 pm

#38 Get it Right on 05.01.09 at 7:39 am

It may cost the company $75/hour to keep the worker, however, workers don’t take home that much money.

So? They get it in benefits and time off. Not all pay is monetary. — Garth

Do some research on the mythical “75$/hr” auto jobs before you come to any assumptions. That figure typically includes such items as EI, CPP, and WSIB premiums. Which are in fact employer payroll taxes. I find it humorous that an employers tax would show up as an employees wage. These inflated wage numbers show up everywhere since the adoption of the concept of “all in”. One examination of an all in wage structure found the employer had include the cost of the payroll department, Human Resources, wash room maintenance (including the cost of TP) and the component of property tax attributed to the employee parking lot. You know Garth, for some one who appears to have egalitarian leanings, I am more than a little disappointed in your jumping on the ” these guys make too much money” band wagon. We both know that argument is pandering to the most base elements of a society.
Another thing to all the player haters out there. If these auto jobs are so fantastic how is it that half of new hires wash out?

#94 mattbg on 05.01.09 at 1:46 pm

It’s becoming a bit annoying hearing the union heads talking about the “highest productivity in North America” angle. Isn’t this mainly due to cost of doing business in Canada and process design, without much to do with union involvement?

Processes are designed so that people have as little negative impact on a process as possible. Process engineers design them. And since productivity is based on costs and unions are so expensive, Canada’s automakers are productive DESPITE the unions, not BECAUSE of them.

#95 Barb the proof reader on 05.01.09 at 2:17 pm

The government of Alberta: let the earth be flat

This is child abuse:

#96 Nathan in Edmonton on 05.01.09 at 2:29 pm

The North American auto industry in its current form is a dinosaur that needs to die. Edmonton like every other city in Canada is littered with new car dealerships; I’d wonder how it was sustainable to keep so many businesses going and people employed; well it’s obviously not.

A cultural shift is starting happen in attitudes towards automobiles. For the declining middle class automobiles will not be seen as a status symbol, but simply a utility to get around. Which means people will hold on to their cars for a lot longer – service and maintenance should be the focus of dealerships and not volume sales.

When the automakers realize this and sell a reliable and affordable product, they will sell, but at a much reduced volume.

#97 Kash is King on 05.01.09 at 2:41 pm

I’d look for the Ontario Gov’t to tighten it’s etest regs/standards to hasten the demise of existing on-the-road cars.

They will gleefully do this hoping the average sheep takes out a huge loan for a mediocre socialist-built pile of crud, probably engineered to start failing etests shortly after warranty is up… forcing you to then buy another. Good for all the worker bees on the assembly line.

This Frankenstein’s Monster of a Chrysler/Fiat/Socialist motors co will probably have all the excellence of the 1960’s-1970’s British Leyland Motorco.

#98 dave99 on 05.01.09 at 2:42 pm

#47 Denis,

40 million $1millions is $40 trillion. How exactly is that cheaper than what we have already?

Oh wait. I’m guessing that neither you nor the St.Pete’s times did the simple math? With due respect I suggest that may be part of what got us into this mess in the first place.

#99 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 05.01.09 at 3:36 pm

#82 Zeba

Are you telling the truth? Your 2002 with only 3 years and 65k was under powertrain WARRANTY!

Did you fail to maintain the vehicle, abuse it, what were the specifics?

#100 the Coming Depression on 05.01.09 at 3:39 pm

Garth maybe you should have wrote a book about the coming depression like Martin Weiss did. You would have made the Top Sellers List. If your going to do Doom you better “doom it good”. Instead you watered it down to make everyone feel good. Check out Martin Weiss:

I’d rather tell teh truth than profit from fear. That’s your thing. — Garth

#101 Dan in Victoria on 05.01.09 at 3:43 pm

I wonder how long it takes for some gear head to jam a hemi into a Fiat 500.Would’nt that be fun?Maybe Ed Big Daddy Roth has already drawn it.

#102 Chris in England at the moment on 05.01.09 at 3:49 pm

Jake 79# “Chris in England, drop the feminist BS. Hell, even when his only intention is to alleviate suffering the man is still acting out of line. It’s time to stop singing along with Alanis Morissette’s “You outta know” and get to know a man. They’re not all that bad.”

Dear Jake, please do not assume I pick on all men, or that I am a “feminist” (whatever your definition of that actually is). Just because you got criticised for your paternalistic head-patting doesn’t mean I talk to all men like that. Provide evidence of my past misdemeanours in this regard and I will sincerely apologise. Otherwise, go and suck some gas and air – it might be “the difference between me loving or hating you through the process”.

#103 john m on 05.01.09 at 3:54 pm

A total farce from our “obama lackies” …our government has done nothing but follow every scheme laid out by the US.Our government has no business using our tax dollars to bail out or purchase mismanaged failing companies.Nor do the taxpayers of Canada have any obligation to continue to provide wages and benefits to a small minority of Canada’s whole workforce while the rest of us are left to “piss in the wind” as our jobs disappear.Cars are a necessity and they will still be available without Chrysler and GM.There are other automakers such as Ford,Honda etc who manufacture cars and are managing their companies without bailouts.IF there is a need for them to produce more with the failure of GM and Chrysler then so be it…and there should be jobs for their ex employees—if not then go out and work at what you can find like the rest of us who have lost our jobs,business’s closed and not a damn nickel was or will be offered to keep our former employers in business nor will there be any assistance to meet their payrolls or benefit plans. Thats Life in these times who exactly do the auto workers think they are? Im sick of this crap!

#104 john m on 05.01.09 at 4:08 pm

The CAW says and I quote
CAW assembly-plant workers earn $30 to $35 an hour on average a good wage

That is 62,000 to 73,000 per year.

The average wage in Canada is about 22 per hour or 45,000 a year. So CAW workers make 38% more than the average wage.

CAW workers make an average wage higher than Architects, registered Nurses and in some cases more than a school teacher with over 10 years expereince.

35$ an hour = 5600 a month. That is higher than nearly every job listed here other than Engineer and Miners———–this is hourly wages not including benefits pension plans etc etc –Do the math!!!

#105 Herb on 05.01.09 at 4:17 pm


This should hurt a lot of people, but those concerned have never been bothered by shame.

#106 Grumpydawgs on 05.01.09 at 4:24 pm

So, we pay billions and Fiat gets the company for nothing? Somethings not right with that. Our billions get us one directorship, not enough decision power to paint the bathroom. Will this mean that the unions are technically civic workers and have access to the fat government slop bucket we have to give the civil servant? After all the civil service paypouts, severance, wages , perks and pensions make the CAW’s $75 bucks an hour look like chicken feed. We appear to be on the hook for all the billions that Fiat will lose in N.America to if this signal the government is sending out is ‘no faliure here’. Those jobs will be a loser to the taxpayer ad perpetuum . As long as we bail them out with oblivious fresh infusions there is zero incentive for any one to try and creat an efficient buisness model,none.

It would have been better to let the company go into CCAA and wrestle itself out of it’s current malaise. These government billions are like canned life support to a brain dead coma patient. Pulling the plug would be the kind thing to do but prolonging everyones agony is the politically correct way to go. I can’t wait until my taxes get up to 100% . Oh Canada.

#107 Eduardo on 05.01.09 at 4:43 pm

For the record, CAW workers at 62,000 to 73,000 per is more than starting oil & gas engineers who paid and worked extremely hard to go to school for 4 years and are professionals or members-in-training with technical and public safety responsibilities.

Pushing a button at a car plant is not an irreplaceable skill. The argument that union workers should be paid more or even close to the same is an outrage.

If you think you should be paid 35 dollars to perform menial tasks then lets see if the unemployed guy beside you would do it for 25 because I bet he would. In fact he might even do it for 15 and good benefits.

If you can learn a skill or have knowledge that makes you indispensable then by all means do so and then you won’t need to complaing that someone took your job because there won’t be enough people to do it.

Wake up and lose the entitlement.

#108 TheFirstRick on 05.01.09 at 4:46 pm

#65 Give-Me-A-Break on 05.01.09 at 10:57 am
And now… now Joe Taxpayer is writing those cheques. And they criticize REALTORS ?!? Humph, I give up.
Probably because Joe Taxpayer never had an autoworker (and I’ve known/know many of them) tell them that a Jeep Cheroke will move mountains, do 0-100 in 2 seconds, be sold tomorrow and will only increase in value. “Buy a car NOW or you will be priced out forever!!!!”

Even used car salesmen never used that one. Realtors did.

#109 DG on 05.01.09 at 5:24 pm

@68, Bill Muskoka: I’m not sure where you are getting your data, but under 10% of Chrysler’s sales come from outside North America. They are a niche player at best in Europe.

In the UK, until very recently one of Europe’s strongest car markets, Chrysler is considered to be a joke. There was a brief blip of interest in the Jeep brand when it was first launched in the UK back in the 90s, but the bottom line is that not one of their cars, including the painfully mediocre Caliber, is even close to being competitive in the European market.

Sorry to be so down on Chrysler, but the only ones among their recent cars that have been just about OK to drive have been those based on old Mercedes underpinnings (e.g. the 300, which is an old E-class underneath). They haven’t invested enough in design or engineering, and the products reflect that.

#110 Dan in Victoria on 05.01.09 at 5:35 pm

Post#99 Bill-Muskoka(NAM) I’ve got one for you,Wife and in-laws always drive/drove Chrysler products.One day I get the hysterical “My cars broke”phone call from wifey.(Diffrent from the dash warning light and I’m out of gas call)So anyhow I drive over and see whats wrong yep transmission is puked on the side of the road,36 k on her(third) New Yorker.So off to the local trans shop,$2500 to rebuild and re&re.Now having been around cars all my life I make sure its all in writing and it says COMPLETE REBUILD.So a week later we go for the test drive with the shop owner and I notice a vibration so hes trying to pawn it off as bumpy road,tires are square,lock up switch chattering etc.I says I bet its the torque converter,did you rebuild it?No we just cleaned it up.Sorry says I call me when its fixed.But wait theres more,wife phones Chrysler to find out about warranty,nope there was some excuse whatever it was, or may be, right or wrong, I don’t care.She swore a blue streak at them that even had me embarrased.Funny thing about all this was the wifes family owned a Chrysler dealership for years.She went and bought a japanese suv, first non Chrysler vehicle ever for her. 12 years and counting no issues.

#111 Dave on 05.01.09 at 5:48 pm

It may cost the company $75/hour to keep the worker, however, workers don’t take home that much money.

So? They get it in benefits and time off. Not all pay is monetary. — Garth


I worked there. The wage was $31.50 an hour – less than Toyota & Honda. I love the number $75….everyone throws it around. I wish I made that! What I made wasn’t even close!

Please stop glorifying the auto worker job. When you walk a 7 foot line, back and forth for 8 hours, and have two 10 minute breaks and a 19 minute lunch (lunchroom is a 4 minute walk away), and have to raise your hand to go to the bathroom, then you can make the assessment. Some ppl at an auto plant can do the above, while others completely hate it and lose their mind. To me, the job was fine. I didn’t lose my marbles. Some of you, believe me, would not be able to do it. I’ve seen soo may people walk out and never look back. Monotony is tough on the mind for people that focus in on everything they do.

By the above calculation made by the media and Garth, what do Walmart employees earn, $28 an hour??

#112 Dave on 05.01.09 at 5:58 pm

by the way, I do disagree with the bailout. I don’t think the general public should be on the hook for a bad company.

One more point though, all the attention the auto workers have gotten the past couple of months definitely offers a smokescreen to the bank bailouts. Didn’t the banks get $50 billion? I don’t know, this all smells funny.

#113 ally ally oxycontin free on 05.01.09 at 6:04 pm

All the small, undisclosed failures become huge losses in total.

Randle Reef: Feds commit $30 Million of $90 M total.

Conclusion: Cleanup Ineffective, water and fish stocks remain contaminated. Bronx Cheers for Mikey Wallace and Birdy [ BOOO! ] Baird.

High-speed rail to Peterborough; $150 Million total commitment from Feds, to support customer demand of 900 commuters/day. Claiming Credit: Dal Maestro and O’Flairity.

$1 BILLION apparently unsecured pre-Christmas loans to Chrysler Canada. U.S. wrote off $4 Billion unsecured to avoid cluttering bankruptcy proceedings. Clement told Don Newman, “It’s part of the $3.775 Billion deal, but we’re only claiming $2.42 Billion as part of our 2% equity purchase.” I’m still waiting to see who is going to rush forward to CLAIM CREDIT. Will it be Harper, O’Flairity and Gravy Boat Clement? As O’Flairity said, “some mistakes will happen.”

Committed and spent: $1 Billion plus $30 Million.

Awaiting conflict resolution and needs assessment:

High-speed rail service to Peterborough to support 900 commuters per day … $150 Million.

Does anyone else have any pork-barrel, incumbent-MP-perpetuating projects which are going to bite us?

#114 Dave on 05.01.09 at 6:14 pm

CAW workers make an average wage higher than Architects, registered Nurses and in some cases more than a school teacher with over 10 years expereince.


i never knew there was someone at the helm controlling wages in North America. People should be paid what their employer is willing and can afford to pay. I know a Chartered Accountant, who I’m betting has a higher education than most of us, is only earning $10 an hour as a server right now. So, should we all be making $8 because of her?

I disagree with the auto bailouts, but please, go easy with the wage controls. Its that attitude that gets people working for a loaf of bread a day.

#115 ally ally oxycontin free on 05.01.09 at 6:32 pm

#106 Grumpydawgs on 05.01.09 at 4:24 pm

Just to provide a small comfort to you … Fiat is already up to it’s cojones in a debt spiral.

“Remember, Fiat is a company so undisciplined that its debt mysteriously “ballooned,” to use Marchionne’s term, to $7.6 billion (U.S.) last year, three times what Fiat estimated. Credit agencies have cut Fiat’s debt to junk status. And Fiat is a candidate for bailout funds from Rome. And this is Chrysler’s saviour?”

Toronto Star, “A wonky rescue at best” 04-15-09

Can you hear that indistinct shout from Whittleby-Oshawa … “We gotta lend, lend, lend and spend, spend, spend.” … Even without protecting taxpayers and their children. [ … that wasn’t part of the shout ]

#116 Sun Yat-sen suit on 05.01.09 at 6:43 pm

Have they got some suprise piece of new fangled tech to put under the coming Chry-Fi hoods..?

#117 ally ally oxycontin free on 05.01.09 at 6:56 pm

#114 Dave on 05.01.09 at 6:14 pm

A good lesson and well stated. I remember when I was an account-temp, and opened my orientation slide-tray, every morning, at a prominent auto assembly plant. The orientation message: “The debit is always on the side nearest the window … when facing East.”

Unlike Bob Newhart, who was very popular at the time, none of us ever felt the need to “glom money from petty cash.”

A lot of us lost our jobs … as part of the auto industry R.A.P.E. program [ Retire All Personnel Early ] layoffs.

A dog bit me today, while I was delivering ‘literature.’ The bite was quite serious, behind the right thigh muscle. The doctor, a lady, asked, “Why did the dog bite you?”

I told her, grinning sheepishly, as some Sheeple do, “I dunno, I can’t afford the $50 for a dog psychiatrist.”

Have a good day, Dave. I always look for and find the good at any troublesome time.

#118 Da HK Kid on 05.01.09 at 6:59 pm

#111 Dave, thanks for clearing the whole issue up for the bloggers here! The problem is now very clear from the horses mouth, for the majority, these line workers if unemployed will never be able to find work, except at Walmart (and lets face it, they are NOT hiring as business will be status quo for the next 5 years).

Oh yeah, their wages + ninga loans have put them into the $500K home 0/40 in Oakville, Milton and Oshawa.

You see the conclusion here!!!! Taxpayers will have to foot the bill.

And for those who think we need to manufacture more domestically for our own consumption, yes we need too but just the like US, it will never happen and these people will have to find employment somewhere????

#119 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 05.01.09 at 6:59 pm

#110 Dan in Victoria

If I read your comment correctly?

The moment you had a non-Chrysler dealer re-build the transmission you voided your own warranty. Why didn’t you take it to an authorized dealer? Save money did you?

BTW, talked with dealer today and they are moving vehicles very nicely. the only problem now is their new orders are not going to be built until the factories re-open…whenever that will be?

#120 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 05.01.09 at 7:08 pm

#101 Dan in Victoria

LOL. Hey WAIT! The new 6.1L Hemi is rated at 425 HP. There is a rumour they may offer the V-10 Viper 600HP in the SRT versions.

Amazing, all these decades and we now have tyhe Charger and Challenger back to an available 425 HP same as the 426 Hemi was rated with dual quads. Ridiculous power for today’s situation, but still one helluva lot of FUN!

The SRT-4 258 HP Turbo’d 2.4 L four Caliber is a hot little bugger as well. Personally I find the 158 HP 2.0 L four just a perfect power choice. It accelerates like crazy and smooth as glass.

#121 Give-Me-A-Break on 05.01.09 at 7:37 pm

#108 TheFirstRick on 05.01.09 at 4:46 pm #65 Give-Me-A-Break on 05.01.09 at 10:57 am
And now… now Joe Taxpayer is writing those cheques. And they criticize REALTORS ?!? Humph, I give up.
“Probably because Joe Taxpayer never had an autoworker (and I’ve known/know many of them) tell them that a Jeep Cheroke will move mountains, do 0-100 in 2 seconds, be sold tomorrow and will only increase in value. “Buy a car NOW or you will be priced out forever!!!!”

Even used car salesmen never used that one. Realtors did.”

Don’t tell me… you were one of the “greater fools” who fell for that line. Obviously, if so, you were young nieve and ready to be seduced by an unprofessional predatory opportunist. No worry unlike companies that are “too big to fail”, greater fools and unprofessional predatory opportunists have a way of reducing greater fools and unprofessional predatory opportunists as we are seeing today.

#122 Dan in Victoria on 05.01.09 at 8:03 pm

Post#119 Bill-Muskoka(NAM)Your gonna have to read between the lines there Bill.I sorta think you have it.Post#120 Bill,yeah I remember those things,my cousin was working on his mopar and had the air cleaner off, poured some gas down the carb and cranked it over,didn’t fire so he gets up on top of the motor looks down at the carb”crank it over he says” Kaboom she backfires and singes all his eye brows and hair,couldn’t stop laughing for a week.Other buddy had a Plymouth Road runner,a little oil on the rear polyglass tires, and he could get the smoke up as high as the top of the telephone poles,man I miss those days.You just couldn’t kill those old mopar motors.

#123 gold bugger on 05.01.09 at 8:28 pm

I’ve got a solution: DON’T FILE YOUR TAXES.

There aren’t enough parasites in the world to work through 12 million files per year.

#124 VFC on 05.01.09 at 9:34 pm

Sounds like a lot of people have written off the FIAT deal already. You do have to hand it to FIAT though. Vultures. Great name for a new model! Maybe Garth would buy one…

I think FIATs are better than most give them credit for. I was in Italy in March and talked to our bus driver to see what he thinks of the situation. He noted that in the past few years the quality has improved a lot and Europeans actually but it because they like it instead of because of the fact it is cheap.

I’ll be sticking to my German car for now. Ciao.

#125 ally ally oxycontin free on 05.01.09 at 9:59 pm

#123 gold bugger on

05.01.09 at 8:28 pm

You’re a DAY LATE, pilgrim …

#126 keesio on 05.01.09 at 11:44 pm

Funny that some of the same people who have been applauding Garth for “telling it like it is” and for being “bang on” when he came down on greedy banks, mortgage brokers, greater fools and the Harper government just happen to think that Garth is way off on criticizing greedy autoworkers and unions. I personally think Garth has been on target with everything so far… including autoworkers and unions.

#127 dbg on 05.01.09 at 11:53 pm

#100 The Coming Depression


Snake oil or gold, it’s all hype to me.

#128 Dave on 05.02.09 at 2:17 am

Funny that some of the same people who have been applauding Garth for “telling it like it is” and for being “bang on” when he came down on greedy banks, mortgage brokers, greater fools and the Harper government just happen to think that Garth is way off on criticizing greedy autoworkers and unions. I personally think Garth has been on target with everything so far… including autoworkers and unions.


I’m one of the only ones that provided a different perspective on auto workers because I worked at one of the plants. If you’re referring to me, you’ve misunderstood what I stated. I let you all know that what I earned as an autoworker with Chrysler was $31.50 an hour. I have no clue what the $75 is that people are counting. I’m not getting a pension. The pay rate at Chrysler is less than what Honda and Toyota pay. I know plenty of people that left Chrysler for Honda/Toyota and know they were getting paid more.

The government, in my opinion, should have let Chrysler go bankrupt. I think it’s senseless to throw good money at a bad company. The people that are complaining about this are 100% right. I agree with you totally.

What I don’t understand is people saying autoworkers are greedy. Yes, $31.50 an hour is good (to me), but remember, the company was turning a serious profit. After all costs, the Chrysler 300 was making the company $10,000 a vehicle. That’s every 47 seconds. Each car had $500 of labour attached to it. Above all, the cost of labour (blue collar and white collar), is 7% of the company’s cost. The way I see it, if a company is making good money, they can pay employees whatever they agree to. Why should someone on the outside critique a viable business? Baseball players, some really fat ones, make $20 million a year- a lot more than a brain surgeon. Do they deserve it? I don’t know. I know the owner makes hundreds of millions a year and can afford to pay that $20 million, so why shouldn’t that player be paid that money?

lets not let jealousy get in the way of things. I hope there’s a lot of you on this blog that do exceptionally well. I’d rather fill the pockets of the general public rather than have that money sucked up as profits by some multi-national corporation.

#129 Dave on 05.02.09 at 2:22 am

by the way, Chrysler isn’t a profitable business anymore so rightfully their wage agreement should have been revisited- which it was. I don’t see why people were so concerned with autoworker pay rates a couple years back when Chrysler couldn’t meet the demand for the 300 and were making ridiculous money.

#130 wellwell on 05.02.09 at 2:32 am

Few people care about industrial history, but it’s interesting to note that Walter Chrysler, the founder of the company, would qualify today as a Canadian citizen. His father, grandfather, great-grandfather and great-great-grandfather were all born in southern Ontario. The family was prominent in Chatham, Ontario, where they were among the earliest settlers. Of course, this is only of antiquarian interest, but Messrs. Harper and McGuinty are helping to rescue an old Canadian name (at a heavy cost to the taxpayer).

#131 Kash is King on 05.03.09 at 9:38 am

I’ve had lots of Chryslers, they were good cars….at least the ones I picked, I’ve had a Fiat even, back when… no complaints.

I just really wonder about the whole gov’t ownership/influence part.

I think it would have been best to allow Chrysler/Fiat to merge without gov’t interference. JMHO.
What ever happened to free enterprise?

#132 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 05.03.09 at 4:00 pm

What ever happened to free enterprise?

#131 Kash is King

It was raped and pillaged by those who didn’t want to participate. They threw out all the principles and ethics that come with freedom of anything.

#133 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 05.03.09 at 4:02 pm

#128 Dave

That $500 per vehicle labour cost does not, obviously, inlcude all the associated labour costs of manufacturing the myriad of components or JIT transportation.

It would simply be the line assembly labour cost per vehicle. Correct?

#134 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 05.03.09 at 4:06 pm

#122 Dan in Victoria

ROFLMAO! Yeppers, seen guys do that…ONCE! Then they got learned by experience. Same goes for grabbing spark plug wires, points condensers, etc.

Reality tends to make either better workers or dead ones. Kind of like watching Earnest ask Vern ‘What’s this wire for? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzap!’

#135 Dan in Victoria on 05.03.09 at 8:06 pm

Post #134 Bill-Muskoka(NAM)Oh Yeah. I bet they don’t teach that stuff in” fancy “school, amazing how fast you learn the survival and common sense stuff on the street.Heres one for you,warning stupidity and swearing.Go to You tube and type in” snow car towing”