13%

dalton1

The first time I lost my mind and went to the House of Commons, Mike Wilson was designing something called the GST. The geniuses in the finance department wanted it to apply to the full cost of new houses which, of course, would have been a disaster.

Wilson called me in, asked my opinion, and in half an hour there was a plan. Apply the tax, but rebate most of it and police the hell out of builders so they did not use it as a profit grab.

The GST was brought in when the feds had a $40 billion annual deficit and needed a way to climb out of the hole. It worked. Within half a decade the deficit was gone, and so was Wilson. The Liberals took power and wisely kept the tax, achieving balanced budgets and then surpluses. In the last two years the GST has been slashed, and we are now headed for a deficit of at least $60 billion over two years.

Oh well.

But this is not about the GST. Instead, the PST. For those of you in Ontario, it’s about a tax increase of Herculean proportion, which will probably roll West in the coming few years.

The provincial government of Dalton McGuinty is on the verge of harmonizing its own sales tax with the national tax (as Quebec and the Atlantic provinces have done). Businesses are lobbying hard for this to happen, since it would give them the ability to deduct PST payments on their inputs as business expenses. They claim it would make the economy more efficient, since only one combined tax would need be calculated and remitted, instead of two. They also say consumer prices could drop (yeah, right) when the PST becomes deductible for them.

Maybe so.

But the flip side is a tax increase. The GST applies to services, but the PST does not. By combining them, there would suddenly be a 13% tax on all kinds of things to which only the GST now applies. Like real estate commissions. Legal fees. Home appraisals. Financial advisors. Couriers. Plumbers. Carpenters. Flooring guys.

On the sale of a $400,000 home, this will mean an extra seventeen hundred dollars in commission alone. In a recession. In a housing collapse. We’re not making this up.

Mr. McGuinty says he needs it to run Ontario.  And he wants to know what you think. Tell him.

121 comments ↓

#1 Alberta Ed on 03.24.09 at 9:25 pm

More taxes would be the equivalent of flushing twice to accelerate Ontario’s economy down the toilet. Brilliant!

#2 Opportunity on 03.24.09 at 9:26 pm

Somebody has got to pay for the highways, public services, salaries etc. So be happy to contribute to your favourite province.

#3 Straittohell on 03.24.09 at 9:35 pm

Having trouble understanding what the problem is here. Garth, in this post and previous ones, you pointed out that:

1) The GST was a great way of pulling the feds into the black.

2) The real estate industry has pumped up sales and released misleading numbers, suckering people to buy and/or sell, and has profitted from such activity.

So, since Ontario has been floundering in deficit for most of the last 20 years, and since we need a housing market that is more restrained and balanced in the long term, perhaps this is not a bad thing.

If my costs to sell are driven up from this tax harmonization, perhaps I should pursue a private sale, or encourage my friendly, local (and starving) real estate agent to charge less comission.

I am 100% in favour of higher sales taxes versus higher income taxes. Tax me on what I spend, not what I earn. Cheers.

#4 smwhite on 03.24.09 at 9:39 pm

Mr. McGuinty says he needs it to run Ontario. And he wants to know what you think. Tell him.

I love to rag on Jimmy F, but Dalton just blew away months of Jim’s stupidity in one breath. It takes the cake for dumb in a recession. If he pushes this through, the only Ontario municipality voting Liberal will be TO.

Hey, lots have warned of the government “bonus” of extra fat home prices… Taxes revenues.

For instance, Obama bragged tonight on the tele ding-sing that his STIMULUS will help teachers and police keep their jobs.

[email protected] me? How is that stimulus? Essential services keeping their jobs? That’s not stimulus, that’s keeping the status quo.

Except for that whole job thing and people have discretionary spending money.

Its quite the paradox, taxes have to rise, but the politicians don’t want to do anymore damage to your 401K/RRSP or be fat overpriced roof.

When people talk about history and the Great Depression, and that politicians if they had have just pissed off and left well enough alone, things would come back.

But why is it that the politicians are so impatient Garthy baby?

OK, I’ll tell the folks,

VOTES!

Folks, believe Jim Cramer and buy financials now, the worst is behind us.

LMAO

Garth, your squirrel nuggets might come in handy after all…

#5 smwhite on 03.24.09 at 9:44 pm

Looks like my spell checker went for a shit. I’ve fired my editor, sorry Mr. Teeny.

Just caught the unemployment numbers, sorry, un is negative, employment numbers.

Buckle down kids!

#6 lgre on 03.24.09 at 9:49 pm

Whats new?? another great political idea..TAX..wow, has there ever been a political party that was able to solve issues without raising taxes..NO

#7 Cendrine on 03.24.09 at 9:52 pm

Well, this might explain the absolutely crazy real estate environment we are in. At present we are looking for a house in one of the cheapest cities in Ontario (guess where, shouldn’t be hard) and just outside the city. Aside from the difficulty of trying to access the realtor website, which has become unbelievably slow this evening, we are frustrated at seeing our choices disappearing at a great rate. We note prices have not been dropping as quickly as we had hoped and we are beaten to the post when we try to make offers. Not much left which meets our wish list. The impression I am getting is that the market has turned crazy in the last three weeks with buyers fleeing the higher taxes in the city and out of town buyers flocking to take adavantage of the relatively lower prices. It feels like a jungle out there.

This past weekend was a great disappointment. I could not believe the number of foreclosed homes I was seeing and the number that had been badly damaged when the owners left.

The possibility of higher taxes will exponentially increase the frenzy.

It was tough to sell and now it’s tough to buy!

#8 TheComingDepression on 03.24.09 at 10:04 pm

Excellent for the economy! This will spur growth, create jobs, allow people to spend more. Everything will be CHEAPER! It will create an underground economy, tax evasion, shoplifting..and….A QUICKER DEPRESSION! Dumb government..

#9 Da HK Kid on 03.24.09 at 10:09 pm

Just another reason I dont live in or see coming back to Canada anytime soon.

The worst time to introduce any taxation is during this economic reset. It will only force those consumers who are somewhat willing to spend, question the decision and NOT spend.

Just another bottom layer to the pyramid called the Canada Taxpayer Ponzi Scheme. Paying after tax dollar for items or services that have been taxed 3-5 times before they get to you is insane.

To add, I am still waiting on the Recession Revolt from the US taxpayer to come. I hope it does big time so Canada taxpayers will take note and do something about it as well.

Use this wicked economic downturn to really think about what your country has been doing to you for the last 30 years! Take Action!

Here’s an idea, start bartering again. But make sure you are on the front end of the system before they figure out how to tax that too.

#10 Emigrantos on 03.24.09 at 10:11 pm

I told him to double the taxes, but not waste the money (steal it with a purpose?)

#11 dd on 03.24.09 at 10:12 pm

Clowns … all of them.

Reducing the GST before all debt is aliminated is short sighted. People got used to it, actually didn’t mine it if applied to the debt. Harper will have to push it back up again. YOYO.

More taxes here we come.

#12 POL-CAN on 03.24.09 at 10:14 pm

McGuinty is a knob….

I still remember his pledge of no new taxes… That lasted what? 3 months? How much longer do we have to put up with him anyway?

Just like Miller’s Land Transfer tax… dumb dumb dumb
Where was he when the market was smoking along?

This economy is fu$%ed…. The more they squeeze us the wose things will get….

But hey what do I know, logic is how I make my living :)

#13 Brandon on 03.24.09 at 10:21 pm

Thanks garth. I gave it to him good. Hope others follow!

#14 ts harpoon on 03.24.09 at 10:50 pm

Come on, Come on-Let’s work together…now people…

So… McGuintys’ government is facing an $18-billion deficit and Ontario is to ‘bail out’ the provincial government with a 12% harmonized tax?

Is this a provocation for a call for pitchforks and torches by the masses?

J.H. Kunstler stated: “Wherever monetizing debt has been tried before in history, that is the outcome. The result would be ruinous at every level and would lead straight to the second terrible force: social upheaval brought on by the conversion of economic problems into political turbulence.”

I believe him.

I would pay more taxes in Ontario if my contribution was used to prevent raw sewage to be spilled into our waterways. I would pay more taxes if McGuintys’ Liberals would fix the health care system. I’d pay up if we could eliminate child poverty.

But it seems the Liberals can’t get it together… Come on, Come on-Let’s work together now Dalton.

Okay. McGuinty is proably the worst premier Ontario has ever had especially on economic matters, IMO, he’s just as bad, if not worse than Bob Rae.

#15 Eduardo on 03.24.09 at 10:50 pm

Ontario and Quebec should seperate and create the Free-Lunch Socialist Republic of Canada.

#16 AM on 03.24.09 at 10:56 pm

“Mr. McGuinty says he needs it to run Ontario.”

Of course he does, Garth
Look at the state it is in !

http://finance.sympatico.msn.ca/SavingsDebt/KerryGold/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=18741126

#17 Garthlover on 03.24.09 at 10:57 pm

Garth,

How would you have done this differently? Rising taxes seem to be a wave of the future. It is inevitable, isn’t it?

The USA needs somebody to pay for their ridiculous wars. Iran could be next on their list, since Ahmadinejad rebuffed their peace-dove offering. Maybe Obama’ll want to show him who’s boss….

Global economies are collapsing. Canada is showing signs of terminal illness, just like elsewhere. Our dead-cat-bounce just happened on the TSX, from whence it’ll be gnashing of teeth soon.

Dunno what to make of it. But yup, those taxes have to rise. What’s the other choice to get out of this hole we’ve dug ourselves into?

#18 rory on 03.24.09 at 11:24 pm

Let me get this straight …the federal gov’t is spending billions to stimulate the economy trying to get us to spend on ‘things’ once again. And yet we have another branch of gov’t trying to tax more ‘things’ to discourage us from spending. Jeesh!!!! I can’t have this right can I.

#19 ts harpoon on 03.24.09 at 11:32 pm

.12%

http://www.faceinhole.com/show.asp?id=5b2b07d93181735311f4

#20 Mark Ranger on 03.24.09 at 11:34 pm

Brace yourself. This is but the first of many tax increases to come. We ain’t seen nothin’ yet. There shouldn’t be any surprise. That mountains of money governments are dumping into the economy to fuel it through this “correction” must come from somewhere. When will we ever learn a vacation in Disneyland can only go on so long before we have to return to work.

#21 Grumpydawgs on 03.25.09 at 12:03 am

Governments are raising taxes and considering further tax initiatives instead of cutting thier own spending. No addict ever wants to cut back until the time of thier crashing entirely and hitting bottom. This factoid is one of the 12 Steps ( while we’re on the subject of 12) Program for weaning an addict off a lifestyle of substance abuse. Governments have become addicted to taking the easy way out. This is no way to run a budget, at home or in the halls of leadership. Our governments are addicted to spending. It is time for an intervention.

I take umbrage with this misguided and misunderstood use of the word ‘surplus’. The use of the word as it is currently incorrectly bantied about by the government and Liberal media implies that there has been some kind of fiscal efficiency at work and that the government has money left over resulting in a ‘surplus”, nothing could be further from the truth.

The “surplus’ money which sloshes into the treasury is the result of OVERTAXATION, in other words, the government has collected more money in direct and indirect taxes than it has budgeted for and remains unspent. It is NOT a surplus to be spent, it is money which should be immediatley returned to the taxpayers, in cash.

It is NOT a slush fund or ready source of extra cash to be spent on yet undreamt up programs for political expediancies ( which seem to arise when cash is sloshing around) at the fancy of any current party or special interest.

#22 Denis on 03.25.09 at 12:03 am

What we need now is rock bottom stability based on financial fundamentals – not monkeying, hoodwinking, manipulating, mismanaging and tinkering by today’s Pied Pipers.

#23 Coho on 03.25.09 at 12:20 am

Despite the present hardship and increasing pain to come to the working class, the tax grab shouldn’t be surprising. In fact there will be more of them from the municipal level all the way up.

Since the central bank has dropped its interest rate, it is making up for it by taxing the people more. Either way, the people get bled dry.

What does the BoC have to do with taxes one might ask? Well, isn’t the Bank of “Canada” calling the shots here just like the “Federal ” Reserve is calling them in the US?

As for Carney…what…we didn’t have a big enough crook in Canada to run the BoC…instead we had to import one from Goldman Sachs in the US?

#24 gold bug on 03.25.09 at 1:53 am

Since you were in the room, which genius came up with the plan for a 7% rate for some goods and services and a 0% rate for others?

Most people reading this will think I’m making that up.

I am not. There are non-taxed items. And then there are items that are 7% rated. And then some that are 0% rated.

#25 David Bakody on 03.25.09 at 6:15 am

Having lived through the GST = PST this I know ( hold on to your boots Alberta) it’s slowly but surly moving West! We were also told that all prices would include the new PST and the price on lable would reflect that …. then business stepped in and we got the shaft!

So listen up Ontario ….”LISTEN UP ONTARIO”

#26 David Bakody on 03.25.09 at 6:19 am

Addendum….

Listen up Ontario

Demand that all pricing include include that the new PST be included and be clearly marked on every item and service …. if they can do it at the gas pumps they can do for everything …… do it by the millions demand it! if you do not look out for y’all will get the shaft ….. and that you can take to the bank.

#27 Mike (authentic) on 03.25.09 at 6:32 am

Death and Taxes.

High taxes are economic death to a country.

Need a drink? Did you know… Canadian-produced beer is among the most highly taxed in the world. In fact,
among all countries, only Norway levies
more taxes on beer than Canada.

http://www.brewers.ca/UserFiles/Documents/pdfs/eng/12%20The%20Second%20Most%20Highly%20Taxed%20Beer%20in%20the%20World.pdf

#28 The Tallyman on 03.25.09 at 6:36 am

Hey maybe Dalton could just contribute all the $$$ he gets from the next “Psycho” movie he stars in.

You go Norman! make mother proud.

#29 Jack on 03.25.09 at 6:38 am

The harmonised GST has been very good for me. I run a small manufacturing business in Nova Scotia, where the harmonised tax has been in place for almost a decade.

It makes bookkeeping much easier as I only have one tax to account for – collecting, reporting, remitting. In addition, all of the provincial portion of the HST, which used to be lost to me, is now an input credit and is deducted from the tax that I collect on sales. This gives me an 8% competitive advantage when I ship to consumers on Ontario and the west.

In Nova Scotia the rates were 11% provincial and 7% federal (I think) and they were combined to 15%. The rate was lower but the tax was spread more widely, and some things (like children’s clothes) are now taxed. But there are rebates for low income taxpayers. Some things remain exempt or zero-rated – dentists’ fees, bank fees and insurance premiums, food, books and heating oil (partial), etc.

In all matters taxable it is helpful to remember that provincial governments have so little discretionary spending. Health care, education, transportation, infrastructure all come out first, and there is precious little left for pet projects or favours for friends. We sometimes lose sight of the scale of these matters, just as Americans seem to be doing with the AIG bonuses. Yes, they shared $165 million, but Goldman Sachs got $12 billion that they did not need, and that was after their share of TARP funds. And the decisions were all made by GS alumni, now in government. Now that should be the trigger for real outrage . . .

#30 bobs your uncle on 03.25.09 at 6:41 am

Raising taxes to keep civil service parrasites employed is counter productive. If you have 10% unemployment private sector, the governments should cut public sector jobs the same percentage.

#31 pbrasseur on 03.25.09 at 7:03 am

“The Liberals took power and wisely kept the (GST) tax”

After they promised to get rid of it…

Or was-it free trade? Right, that too!

#32 pbrasseur on 03.25.09 at 7:33 am

I was listening to Obama yesterday and the poor soul seems to believe that government creates economic growth. That’s why he figures he must spend so much “to prepare the growth of tomorrow”.

That’s a big mistake, true growth come from individuals if you let them work, commerce and innovate freely. This is the true and only engine of capitalism, when millions on people try to perform at the same time you get results. When you let people free they will create abundance, you are living and walking the proof of that every day. The role of the state should simply be to regulate to protect contracts and individuals (which it failed miserably to do with the financial markets).

More government, more taxes means less space and less opportunity for people to create, innovate and perform. In the end we all lose.

Obviously this is true for Ontario as well, a province that is becoming as badly managed as my own Québec, as a result it shall become poorer just like Québec, a province that is heading towards a brick wall and accelerating…

A tax on service is not a bad idea per say but only IF it replaces income tax, a very regressive tax on work, but I guess the plan here is to have both.

#33 JamesT on 03.25.09 at 8:18 am

“The “surplus’ money which sloshes into the treasury is the result of OVERTAXATION, in other words, the government has collected more money in direct and indirect taxes than it has budgeted for and remains unspent. It is NOT a surplus to be spent, it is money which should be immediatley returned to the taxpayers, in cash.”

By your definition then a “deficit” is UNDERTAXATION and during this period the government should be raising taxes. Would it not be wiser to stash the surplus for bad times (like we’re in now) so that taxes can be cut to help stimulate growth? Kind of like a rainy day fund or the keep 3 months living expenses in savings just in case?

In good times, cut taxes, in bad times, cut taxes. Do you see a flaw here?

#34 john m on 03.25.09 at 8:30 am

Thanks Garth for explaining the implications of the combined tax.I just sent a letter to Mr Mcguinty.

#35 mattbg on 03.25.09 at 8:30 am

Does it really cost much to issue remittances on two separate taxes? Isn’t it all computer-driven these days, anyway?

Another important impact is on newspapers, which are also on their death beds. Presumably, they will be subject to PST if this goes through, adding a few more cents to the cost of a paper, and a few more dollars to the cost of a subscription.

#36 Rhino on 03.25.09 at 8:35 am

To hell with healthcare
To hell with Daycare
To hell with environmental protection spending
To hell with infrastructure improvements
To hell with social programs
To hell with mass transit
To hell with education
To hell with improved policing and crime fighting
To hell with everything the government provides.

I will be dead before all this deficit spending completely ruins our economy.

Let’s just pass the costs for our binge on to the Gen-X and Gen-Y and Gen whatever. Let THEM pay for our garbage.

As long as I can live the fat cat life, do not have to cut down on my beer, can continue to buy all the toys I want, everything is GREAT!

Gawd… it feels sooooo good to only think about myself!

#37 David Bakody on 03.25.09 at 8:59 am

Just returned from my barber shop, joke of the day.

A man dies and goes to heaven…. upon arrival he notices a wall full of clocks, he asked why the clocks? St. Peter tells him the are truth clocks, every time you lied on earth you received a click …. the man say look at that clock it is stopped at 12 noon, yup Mother Teressa’s clock! what about that one with two seconds after …. Abraham Lincoln’s, he told only two lies ….. hey St. Peter the man says I am from Canada, would you have a Stephen Harper Clock …. Yes we do, “It’s out in the kitchen we are using it as a ceiling fan!” All this and good ode fashion $10 haircut (PST included) and a free sucker …… from the son of a coal miner from Cape Breton Island, we here in the land of the defeatist East still have not lost our sense of hunour.

#38 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 03.25.09 at 9:01 am

What an assinine idea to combine the GST and RST (aka PST). It will raise all costs because many services like professional ones are not subject to RST (Yes, it is officially called the Retail Sales Tax).

Likewise, the rules have been complex enough, especially for contractors. The rule is if the materials become a permanent part of real property then the RST is included by the contractor on the cost of materials, but is not listed separately to the customer. However, satellite systems do NOT find an exemption that is clear. If the material is removable then the customer is charged RST. It is an accounting nightmare for contractors even to prepare quotes.

Service work is subject to the RST if performed in the contractor’s shop, but not if done on site. That would be your computer, lawn equipment, or any other repairs.

Other service shops like automotive have been back charged for RST because they failed to charge RST on expendable supplies like fluids.

The entire RST has been a hodgepodge is piss poor legislation and now McGuinty wants to create even more confusion? We do not need an 8% increase on professional services, and for damn sure not on housing, books, etc.

NO THANKS DALTON!

#39 dd on 03.25.09 at 9:14 am

#31 pbrasseur

Right on.

#40 Comrade Okie on 03.25.09 at 9:43 am

1992/93 redux. When the people hurt, ease their pain by finding the biggest hammer you can and hit them square between the eyes.

#41 MikeB on 03.25.09 at 9:51 am

Yes another Dalton moment I call it. He was also in favour of removing the OMB or at least revamping it.
There is no upside to this fiasco as it will cost businesses money to revamp to a new tax structure. Plus more uncivil servants to sit in cubicles and mumble that they want more money. Essentially taxing things that were once only services . Are there any figures as to what this will net the morons in tax gains. Talk about tax grab…Dalton should be a conservative …he acts like one. Sheister of epic proportions.

#42 CalgaryRocks on 03.25.09 at 10:02 am

McLiar wants to save Ontario businesses 100 million dollars by taxing Ontario taxpayers an extra couple of billions. Socialist math for ya!

#43 Jimster on 03.25.09 at 10:03 am

I suppose we have to pay for the $75 BILLION DOLLAR Canadian bankster bail-out somehow.

Perhaps this means there will be more bail-outs once the Canadian banks catch up with their American couterparts.

#44 east of eden on 03.25.09 at 10:11 am

I don’t understand the fuss. Dalton won two majority governments so this province got the government for which it voted. We all knew that Dalton was a liar before he won the first time but Ontarians gave him a majority. He added the health tax and he got a second majority. The majority of Ontario voters have no right to complain. I have a right to complain because I do NOT vote Liberal. However, the majority of Ontario voters (mostly the 416 and 905 regions) voted in the guy. So, suck it up – this is the guy you wanted to run the province and this is how he runs the province.

#45 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 03.25.09 at 10:14 am

Garth,

Thanks for the link to Premiere McGuinty. He has been served! LOL

#46 ralph on 03.25.09 at 10:26 am

The last election set a record for the lowest voter turnout in an Ontario provincial election; only 52.8% people who were eligible voted. This broke the previous record of 54.7% in the 1923 election.

So for you people that care less about participating in one of the most coveted democratic processes in the world, should stop your whining about the government. If you want things to change in government then get involved and vote. To bad, so sad.

#47 smwhite on 03.25.09 at 11:02 am

Dalton, your going to lower the income tax accordingly correct?

Well for all the deflation fans out there, never under estimate the stupidity of government, especially one trying to keep hold of power.

This tax could very well have the same effect as deflation as people go into a spending shell.

“Dear fellow provinces, will work for transfer payments” – Dalton

Hey North Van Citizen, got any room out there? ha ha

#48 Realtor on 03.25.09 at 11:06 am

I can’t believe what Dalt is considering. In one of the worst recessions to hit us in years they are going to slap more taxes on us. Try to sell that to someone who has lost their job and are trying to sell a house and they now will have to pay tax on the sales commision.

#49 Ally Ally Oxycontin Free on 03.25.09 at 11:31 am

Sure hope I’m not ‘off topic’ or judged ‘selfish’ …

Have you consulted an economist for an opinion [ ? ] LATELY [ ? ]

http://www.cbc.ca/video/popup.html?http://www.cbc.ca/mrl3/8752/news/features/ec-for-090323.wmv

FRONTLINE—INSIDE THE MELTDOWN [ 56’ 23” ]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meltdown/view/

UNEMPLOYMENT—When does it become a problem for Harper [ ? ]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/cp-unemployment/

#50 Bob Bagina on 03.25.09 at 11:32 am

Welcome to BC. I don’t think people even think any more about the extra 13% they hand over for most purchases.

and for the part about realtor fees, uh… yeah. How many people when selling or “trading spaces” simply fork out any equity built in their house to realtors and property tax transfers?

Taxes are becoming a sore issue, not cause their too high, but because of they manner in which our so-called representatives are using them. The USA taxpayer just got worked terribly during the last decade. If Harper continues Canada will have its own decade of shame.

and that Rolling Stone article was depressing. that little bald guy who makes predictions seems interesting though. tax revolt in the USA? Mexican drug lords expanding their battles into the streets of America.

It really feels like the American ship is sinking, and all the fat cats are getting what they can before it does.

#51 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 03.25.09 at 11:38 am

#30 bobs your uncle on 03.25.09 at 6:41 am

‘Parasites’? Nice way to treat those who serve us. They are the Front Line Troops that Get It Done!

Imagine is there were no government employees but politicians? How much ‘service’ do you think you would get from government?

Yes, there are lazy, shiftless workers in all businesses, but the old ‘Government is bad!’ line is worn out.

#52 pjwlk on 03.25.09 at 11:47 am

#9 Da HK kid

I take it you live in Hong Kong? I’m told HK has a flat tax income system and no sales taxes. Is that true?

“Just another reason I dont live in or see coming back to Canada anytime soon.”

Ah, but you are back, just not in the flesh. Do you live in HK’s “Little Canada”?

“To add, I am still waiting on the Recession Revolt from the US taxpayer to come. I hope it does big time so Canada taxpayers will take note and do something about it as well.”

US citizens have guns to support their position and to expedite real change. Shamefully, we can’t even get our masses of apathetic Canadians to even sign petitions never mind a revolt.

“Here’s an idea, start bartering again. But make sure you are on the front end of the system before they figure out how to tax that too.”

Big brother is way ahead of you…
Check this out: http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/gi/notice172/notice172-e.pdf

#53 Ally Ally Oxycontin Free on 03.25.09 at 11:53 am

Would I “be happy” to have my hydro bill reflect the impact of harmonization [ ? ] Hey, Guess What …

Electricity Bill Through March 5 2009 [ TAX ON WATER = NIL ]

ELECTRICITY ……………….. $72.13

DELIVERY……………………. $55.58

REGULATORY CHARGES…….$ 8.49

DEBT RETIREMENT…………..$ 8.65

GST……………………………..$ 7.24

TOTAL ELECTRICITY……….$152.09**

HARMONIZED TAX [ 13 % ] $163.68***

ADDED COST ………………..$ 11.59***

***Peak Summer Usage…..[ UNKNOWN ]

Martha is mad at me. She has not taken kindly to my suggestion she spend the entire summer in the living room, with a rope tied from her ankle to a grouping of palm fronds on the ceiling to promote air circulation / cooling. Guess you could say, if it were to happen, Martha won’t be a FAN of mine.

#54 Bob Bagina on 03.25.09 at 12:06 pm

Mike #27
“High taxes are economic death to a country.”

Sorry, but that’s terribly erroneous. Take a look at the Nordic countries and you’ll notice the opposite. It has become something devilish to even mention those nanny state socialists but they aren’t the ones bailing out robber barons and greed crazed junkies.

Different lists vary but on average the Nordic countries, supposedly taxed to death, do well compared to American anglo-saxon models.

http://www.economicexpert.com/a/List:of:countries:by:GDP:Nominal:per:capita.htm

#55 mike from oakville on 03.25.09 at 12:15 pm

Garth – i wholeheartedly disagree with you on this. Harmonizing the sales tax will save my company thousands of dollars and provide more of an incentive to invest and help spur the economy.

Sure, some things will be taxed more, but I much prefer a consumption tax to more income taxes, and I think you would too…

#56 RJAG2034 on 03.25.09 at 12:25 pm

Guess they need to consider this to compensate all the subsidies to the doomed Auto companies and the all powerful Unions. Make everyone suffer for their poor policies.

Who elected these morons anyway?

What a great way to kill free cash flow in a small business.

#57 Dave99 on 03.25.09 at 12:29 pm

Well, well, well…

Quite the intelligent discourse on here this morning!

ps. Any recommendations where I can get the best pictchfork?

#58 Marc on 03.25.09 at 12:35 pm

So with a harmonized tax, PST exempt items, will not be harmonized exempt? If B.C. were to bring this in, I would be paying an extra 7% on my work boots, death plans etc. Sure sign me up for higher taxes, I like to pay them.

In other news, got the first of likely many 10%ers show up from some M.P. in Ontario yesterday. Since we will be in a by-election eventually, I imagine an increased volume blitz then the 18 in 5 months we got last year. I love government junkmail.

#59 Got A Watch on 03.25.09 at 12:37 pm

Dalton the Dough-Head strikes again. As usual. Moron.

#60 CalgaryRocks on 03.25.09 at 12:42 pm

This tax is great news. I will soon be 8% cheaper to my Ontario clients than the yocals.

Thank you McLiar for doing what’s best for Alberta. Btw, we do have a housing shortage here so would fleeing Ontarians pace yourselves before stampeeding over.

#61 North Vancouver Citizen Jr. on 03.25.09 at 1:02 pm

#76 rory…from whatever blog.

…Wow, finally an Eastern Canadian who isn’t full of himself.

I, NVC jr moved to Van 20 yrs ago from TO…and it is amazing to see Upper Canada’s citizens (Ontario)who refuse to acknowledge Vancouver/Hongcouver and the Western Provinces for their true long term potential.

#62 smwhite on 03.25.09 at 1:08 pm

#29 Jack

First thing I was told by my father in law about the family business was the advantage of book keeping.

Regardless, I question the timing, and why, if Jimmy thought it was a good idea he didn’t implement it at his party’s expense?

#63 canuck on 03.25.09 at 1:16 pm

Garth, thanks for the link. Sent my opinon to McQuinty that I was totally opposed and he would not get my vote. My line in the sand is his latest tax grab. Wonder who will get my vote? There isn’t a lot of choice.

I’m already in the process of appealing MPAC’s raised assessments on my house. I’ll let you know whether I’m succesful in having my taxes rolled back. Couple the increased assessments with the Municipality’s raised mil rate, and I’ll be behind the eight ball. The raised municpality’s mil rates don’t go into effect until June payments.

Taxpayers are not bottomless pits!

#64 Flip on 03.25.09 at 1:19 pm

#30 bobs your uncle on 03.25.09 at 6:41 am

Raising taxes to keep civil service parrasites employed is counter productive. If you have 10% unemployment private sector, the governments should cut public sector jobs the same percentage.

Should the same theory apply to doctors, nurses and teachers? Fair is fair no?

#65 infernalmachine on 03.25.09 at 1:47 pm

All those bitching about ‘civil service parasites’ should think about that next time they ask for a government service. Like environmental protection, highway building, social welfare services, healthcare… The list goes on. You want less government, then move. If you survive the disease and street gangs you can enjoy paying less tax to the ‘parasites’

#66 canuck on 03.25.09 at 1:50 pm

AM, thanks for that interesting link. Interesting that the Golden Horseshow seems to have thrown it’s shoe. Housing hasn’t gone done at all where I live, shoreline lots are still selling for over $300,000. Do people really need to overlook lakes, when there are subdivisions with lots not nearly as expensive. The subdivision where we bought seven years ago, the lot was $16,000 88′ frontage, 180′ in length (1/3 treed acre) and built our house on it–doesn’t have ‘unreasonable’ restrictions about what we can store in our backyard and/or driveway. No, we aren’t allowed to store tires, but can put our boat or RV on our own property. Urban areas and some ‘rural’ subdivisions do often impose restrictions as well as how many trees can be cut down. There currently are no such rules where we built. Beleve one or two lots are still available, but at increased cost. All the streets in our subdivision are blind streets which reduces traffic.

#67 Rhino on 03.25.09 at 2:02 pm

27 Mike (authentic) on 03.25.09 at 6:32 am

“Canadian-produced beer is among the most highly taxed in the world. ”

Hey Mike!

Take up home brewing! Talk about “tax avoidance”.

I have not bought a case of beer for probably 10 years now. You have to plan ahead, as I am presently brewing up my summer’s quota, but MAN, can you save money.

How about $20 for 23 litres of great beer sound? That is about 67 commercial bottles equivalent, or 2.8 cases of 24! Allowing for losses, it is still about $7 per case. Even premium kits at double the price is an amazing savings. (good thing that now I make 1/4 of past salary…)

And, the activity helps burn off some of the calories, though tradition demands you drink one from the last batch when you start another.

And, you become real popular with the buds as you can afford to provide free beer at the BBQ!!

Cheers!

#68 Realistically Speaking on 03.25.09 at 2:45 pm

Excellent! This will help force the base price of houses down to where they’re supposed to be; 3 times annual income.

Next step is to drop bond prices and hoist interest rates up to finally reward savers, kill wasteful overconsumption, and deflate artificially high house prices.

The world will then pile into the Cdn dollar as it’s strength makes it the world’s new reserve currency, while the USD disintegrates into state-sponsored hyperinflation and civil disintegration (surprisingly prognostic scenes from ‘Barb Wire’). Desperately-needed Canadian commodities, from synthetic crude to water to nickle to uranium will be metered out to the world at naturally high prices, forcing conservation.

Lookin’ good.

#69 east of eden on 03.25.09 at 2:54 pm

“Harmonizing the sales tax will save my company thousands of dollars and provide more of an incentive to invest and help spur the economy.”

Sorry – I don’t buy that one bit. It will actually slow the economy because consumers will reduce their spending – especially on homes. Greg – somebody has told you something that is not true.

I don’t agree with Garth very often but on this one, I am 100% in agreement – especially the effect on home prices.

Now, for people who are complaining about the increased tax burden through harmonization, tell me this – why did you diss Harper for lowering the GST and now diss McGuinty for increasing the tax burden?

I also find it quite interesting that harmonization never REMOVES tax from anything but only ADDS tax to things which were not taxed before under one of the tax schemes. Funny how that happens, isn’t it?

#70 Realistically Speaking on 03.25.09 at 3:04 pm

#27 Mike (authentic) – So what? It’s long since been time to get into brewing your own beer.

Most of the commercial junk is just that – run of the mill stuff just barely palatable to the majority of consumers.

Like designing and building your own modest house, or tweaking your vehicle, or growing/hunting your own food, or loading your own ammunition, or making your own furniture or maybe clothing, for many things you get better quality at reduced cost in the volumes needed for your own consumption if you make it yourself.

All high-volume commercial stuff is a compromise that has to satisfy a wide market, and regulators, and distribution channels, and service infrastructure, and still turn a profit for the manufacturers. On the other hand, those disadvantages sometimes inescapable because of the huge overhead needed to make many complex base components like medicines, computer CPUs, base vehicles, turbine engines, nuclear energy etc but which can be amortized over millions of units.

So, make what you need as you can, use the essentials that industry can efficiently provide, and don’t get sucked into confusing one with the other by saturation advertising or laziness.

#71 . . . fried eggs and spam . . . on 03.25.09 at 3:44 pm

bumbum at 11:19 pm — “US govt are spending roughly 13 trillions on bailouts and it may still not be enough.” — and —

#78 Dave at 11:49 pm — “what is China doing with the dollar? you realize they’re also owed a lot of dollars? they’re not going to flood the U.S with the dollars they’re holding because they’re owed a lot of dollars.”
*****
A few months ago, Japan advised China to ditch the dollar and both countries are doing that frequently. In turn, this is happening, as not many countries will buy US Treasuries / debt (from The Daily Reckoning):

“Fed Begins Buying U.S. Treasuries

“Write in your diary…save today’s newspapers…remember what you did today. Most historians won’t even notice, but today is a big, big day.

“Today is the day the Fed begins buying U.S. Treasuries. Britain is doing it already. So is Japan. Why shouldn’t we? What’s a few trillion extra…just between friends?

“The scope of the project is immense.

“Do you remember how it works? When you buy a U.S. Treasury bond, you pay for it with real money – or, at least as real as dollars get. Money changes hands. No net increase in the money supply. But when the Fed buys a Treasury bond it creates the money to buy it…and thus the money supply increases. It’s called “monetizing the debt” – or converting debt into currency. Given the size of upcoming Treasury purchases, the total size of the U.S. monetary base is expected to increase 500% in the months ahead.

“Is there any doubt what this will mean to the dollar? To the price of gold?”

Etc., etc., which then may lead to this — http://tinyurl.com/dd5qn6 and http://tinyurl.com/c88wxq

Whichever way one looks at events thruout the world, it seems quite clear that not too many have a clear handle on it. As a few posters have said, we’re in for one helluva bumpy ride, and it’s only just started.

#72 Rhino on 03.25.09 at 3:49 pm

#54 Bob Bagina on 03.25.09 at 12:06 pm

“It has become something devilish to even mention those nanny state socialists but they aren’t the ones bailing out robber barons and greed crazed junkies.”

Man oh man…. well said!

“Laissez–faire” economics is proven to benefit the minority, and penalize the majority. Even the Obama administration are pointing out how the Bush administration has put the next 2 generations into debt, as their “conservative” hypocracy has cost the American economy TRILLIONS – and still counting.

Sorry, but the “American capitalist model” is CRAP, and that includes the Conservative Reform Alliance Party here in Canada.

Everybody wants – no one wants to pay. What ever happened to the Canadian characteristic of working for what you get, and willingness to pay for it while helping a neighbour.

Me, me, me…

I guess Canucks want to forget that we are a Nordic Country, and once had more in common with them, than we did with the USA as far as social conscience went.

So sad…

#73 Barb the proofreader on 03.25.09 at 3:56 pm

Ontario is quite the schitzo province, they always hate their premiers no matter the party. I used to know a couple of the premiers, long ago, just nice people (John was my neighbour; David’s family – friends o’ family.. his mom & dad – good people too).
We are very hard on our politicians, but no wonder, when we get the dishonest clowns like we have in Alberta, or Federally now, demonstrating why we all should hate politicians.. In Alberta we are justified in hating our politicians and premiers because they never change their stripes, or, ahem, WE never change their stripes. Same old party for 40 years buggering us and the backwards people seem to enjoy it.
Garth, you’re a heckuva strong guy for doing what you do. I do hope you foray back in, we need people like you.
Dalton? Seems okay to me but PST is something I hate anyway. Do you really think Alberta will institute it? I wouldn’t put it past the buggers here, they have so terribly mismanaged Alberta. We, and all of Canada, could have prospered so much more. But no. We had to keep the morons in power long enough for them to ransack the province.. and the country.

Hey, David Bakody, good joke. I had a sucker too this morning, from the dentist. What a good trick for a dentist.. give out candy. All’s well in Cowtown.

#74 bobs your uncle on 03.25.09 at 4:03 pm

#51 Bill,

When I said parasites I meant parasites. I was in the army from ’69 til ’73. I did not mean the armed forces. I meant the clowns who paw through your luggage at the airport, the customs officers who question your citizenship in broken english and countless other mind numbing drones who are employed by our various levels of government.

#75 Cash is King on 03.25.09 at 4:09 pm

Thank you John Tory,

Because you snatched defeat from the jaws of Victory, we got with the Dalton gang for 5 more years.

Looking forward to the developmentof your replacement so the the Liberal party will be swept out the door in 2012. The provincial Liberals may challange the Kim Campell Tory’s for the minimum number of seats received in an election.

#76 Darryl on 03.25.09 at 4:36 pm

I don’t know when this tax increase will happen . If it begins at a later date, maybe it’s a ploy. The Ontario government could be gaming us into making large purchases sooner than later. Then when the change is supposed to come into effect they could change thier minds . Then get re elected.

#77 andy on 03.25.09 at 4:46 pm

Hi Dalton

u know texas & florida have the highest sales taxes in the US but they dont have state income taxes.

do u have the guts to legislate no provincial income tax if u harmonise and cover all the services & goods that are currently exempt from pst.

despite this if u ram this thru, can u also double the health premium as just harmonising will not generate the revenues necessary as quite a number of things will be done by an underground economy and then u’ll have to make CRA a nasty dept and make an outlay for that as well.

what do u think is fair to people – squeezing the life out of them or living harmoniously with people without squeezing.

#78 Grumpydawgs on 03.25.09 at 5:37 pm

Dave #33 , I think you missed the first part of my argument. A deficit is created by the government overspending not undertaxing. A balanced budget would force the government to cut spending when tax revenues do not meet expenditure projections.

Your comment underpins how successful the doctrine of Karl Marx has been. It is not correct to think that the government knows better how to spend your money than you do. It doesn’t. When the lumpen proletariat take your advice and save three months expenses to cushion THEMSELVES from financial distress then the government wouldn’t be politically compelled to. That would save us all money in the long run.

There is no economic benefit to keep current redunancies at work in the system, eventually the artificially created inefficiencies end up costing us all much more. A case in point ( take your pick) is an increase in government employment and/or paying autoworkers to build cars that no one is buying. Wouldn’t it be better to have those people find work which they are more suited for? A permanent solution is always better than a stopgap measure.

My main point was that this silly notion of ‘surplus’ should be put to rest. It is a misnomer and in fact over taxation and not a surplus at all. The current usage of the word is incorrect and merely ‘stagecraft’ from a propaganda machine which has no shame.

#79 JoeCalgary on 03.25.09 at 5:38 pm

“Homes selling for less than new cars.”

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/WeirdNews/2009/03/24/8871586-cp.html

#80 CalgaryRocks on 03.25.09 at 6:16 pm

Everybody wants – no one wants to pay. What ever happened to the Canadian characteristic of working for what you get, and willingness to pay for it while helping a neighbour.

Yo Rhino,

Well said from the man who lives in Quebec. THE province that ALWAYS wants but NEVER wants to PAY for anyting. You’d be a third world country if you separated. You already have the banana republic politics down pat.

#81 Bottoms_Up on 03.25.09 at 6:20 pm

Tonight Cramer said the stock market has bottomed (in early March), and it’s up, up and away from here…

#82 Grumpydawgs on 03.25.09 at 6:20 pm

Instead of spending billions on supporting redundant workers why not help them to find a new direction?

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20090325/column25_st.art.htm

The social net set up by the Trudeau Liberals has engendered a nanny state wasting billions which could be better spent elsewhere and would result in huge tax savings for all. Without the drag that special interest put on tax revenues evry school would be full of new books, new hospitals could be built, roads renewed. The additional tax proposed by the McGuinty Liberals is just delaying the inevitable demise of the Canadian state of personal laziness and lack of responsibility.

The Canadian economy has failed before and it’s on track to fail again. Our GDP was reported to fall 8.5 % this year. That will result in hundreds of thousands of new layoffs. It would be better to allow these people to find thier own personal equilibrium rather than fool them into thinking that the taxpayer can support the ad perpetuum.

#83 CalgaryRocks on 03.25.09 at 6:20 pm

#68 Realistically Speaking on 03.25.09 at 2:45 pm Excellent! This will help force the base price of houses down to where they’re supposed to be; 3 times annual income.

Next step is to drop bond prices and hoist interest rates up to finally reward savers, kill wasteful overconsumption, and deflate artificially high house prices.

Yeah good going Chavez Jr. Too bad the government is not a saver meaning that it will have to increase taxes just to pay for increased interest payments. But at that point your income will be 0$ since you would have been layed off. Homeless shelters are already providing spaces at 3 times THAT income.

#84 go green on 03.25.09 at 7:13 pm

Well Garth, I see you’ve really attracted the neocon CRAPER ideologists who believe in the dog eat dog world and screw anybody who hits hard times. In their view, they’re losers and don’t deserve to receive EI though they’ve paid into all their working lives. Funny how these laizzey-faire capitalists are the first ones to beg for help. Are any of these neocons willing to put their money where their mouth is and bail out – on their dime- Canwest & Global? F’n hypocrits.

#85 go green on 03.25.09 at 7:19 pm

#82 Grumpydawgs on 03.25.09 at 6:20 pm
Instead of spending billions on supporting redundant workers why not help them to find a new direction?

Get a life – Do you really think 58-60 year olds are going to be able to retrain and find a job? They’ve already lost have of their investment savings savings. And, don’t blame it on them. They trusted their FA’s, the govt., the media, etc.

#86 Da HK Kid on 03.25.09 at 7:32 pm

#52 PJLK, yes Hong Kong has the purest of user pay systems I have seen starting with top tax rate of 15% which they lowered last year to 14% due to surplus.

Rest is all marginal upto a around 400,000 HKD per year or around $65K CAD per year. There is NO sales tax on anything, very much a cash society as well and massive write offs for your business.

Earners that only make money in HK pay HK income tax so if I earn income from overseas (typically as an exporter to Canada) I pay no tax on income earned, so it is possible to pay very little tax at all.

HK is also a hot spot for offshore investments. One company that I know of that is publicly traded but owned majority by a family has 150 offshore companies and has also managed to avoid paying tax around 40% to it’s China employees in it’s 25,000 person factory.

Reality is HK is very expensive to live. You must earn a good income to live properly here as housing is costly and schooling is private (for the good schools) 15K CAD per child, house could be 80K CAD per year to rent.

Most get relief on these that move here for typical expat packages but they have disappeared for local packages over the last 5 years but you just take the cash equivalent, SO imagine your 100K CAD job in Canada, becoming a 300K CAD job in HK whereas you take home 255K minus expenses and you clear over 100K CAD each year. In Canada, you would be left with likely ZERO.

This is a simple worst case scenario IF you earned money for a HK based company. We do extremely better than that!

#87 Sun Yat-sen suit on 03.25.09 at 7:33 pm

McGuinty remind me of that slasher guy in the Hitchcock shower curtain scene…

Ontario needs more Lee Harvey Oswald and mail-order rifle.

#88 bobs your uncle on 03.25.09 at 7:53 pm

#64 Flip, Yes of course.

#89 timbo on 03.25.09 at 7:53 pm

gold bugs ….read

http://www.blanchardonline.com/beru/confiscation_1933.php

If your buying gold to hedge against the worst all you are going to get is paper in return and ottawa in need can pass any law it wants to confiscate.

All the people who fear the dollar collapse should watch as all g-20 currencies are deflating , on purpose. If the US dollar collapses everyone elses dollar will collapse, period. massive government intervention is controlling currency markets to prop up currencies while printing money to clear debt. Printing money to pay debt does not increase the money supply it just clears the books.

I still cannot believe the mindset where in an age of completely interlinked economies everyone is waiting for one country to bail and run when it would ruin them and cause a war.china pulls out of US dollar,lol, how fast can you yell trade embargo and close all the wal-marts. hmmmm. might actually be good, force north-america to bring all manufacturing home

this is planned devaluation by all and about the only thing that we can do. watch the next g20 meeting and another meeting with china and write down what happens the next week.

Remember, this is not real anymore. We have governments with mass money and printing presses, on full, trying to erase debt as deflation continues until housing stabilizes and normal lending can take place.

couple years of this and things will get better.

#90 smwhite on 03.25.09 at 8:01 pm

#81 Bottoms_Up

I know! Quick, buy Bear Sterns!

———————————————————

Just to add to the Dalton debate, if it was such a good deal for consumers and residents of Ontario, why are we getting REBATE CHEQUES! I guess the logic is if he’s going to piss away our tax dollars on sub-par automobile manufacturers, residents might as well get a crumb before the rather large ass-cheek spreading the province is about to recieve…

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090325/taxes_budget_090325/20090325?hub=Toronto

Oh my, the amount of dead kittens Jebus has had to kill for Dalton’s deceptive behavior…

#91 Rhino on 03.25.09 at 8:15 pm

“#80 CalgaryRocks on 03.25.09 at 6:16 pm”

Smile…

Thank you for the endorsement of separation. What the hell. Just because it was the French Canadians that opened up the West – including Alberta, why should we continue to tolerate a strong, independent thinking culture?

Hell, let’s all become Yanks and go to Eye-rack.

Calgary “rocks”… gee I thought is was an oil and cow town… and we all know the by product of cows…

Seriously, the family divided soon falls. Folks like you really do not have much. Maybe material, but other than that… well, it is just a question of values.

At least Quebec values our heritage, family, and society. At least our culture supports helping the needy, and providing social support for those who need it. At least our socialist values have created a culture, that is strong.

If you had been reading something other than Calgary press, you might have known that Quebec has been saying it would be better off without the hand-outs. We have also shown the Harperites that our votes cannot be bought. Can you?

Peace, bro’. Chill a little, and enjoy CANADA. the part that is NOT Calgary. You might learn something.

#92 dekethegeek on 03.25.09 at 8:16 pm

#80 & #83 Calgary Rocks
My goodness! Someone was sent to bed without supper last night. Rip the face off a Pitbull you would.
Hilarious !
Both points( Quebec & Inflation) were well said.
Go get em’ ! Yer still huingry for RAW MEAT!
I can sense these things.

#93 Bob on 03.25.09 at 8:23 pm

Ya. Um. This idea is just plain funny. See you in 2 years when the economy is completely destroyed. Time to band together people. We are tracking the U.S. beautifully…

#94 Shawn on 03.25.09 at 8:25 pm

Garth said:

They also say consumer prices could drop (yeah, right) when the PST becomes deductible for them.

Garth do you not believe in competition? I would think lower costs would lead to lower prices in competitive businesses.

Why not combine the two taxes but make the rate lower so it is revenue neutral?

Why should some things we buy be taxed and not other things. Thats a value judgement.

Long live the capitalist free market system (where prices do reduce as costs reduce) Let taxes be broad based but as low a rate as reasonable.

If people think merchants are pocketing the cost reduction, let them open a store.

#95 go green on 03.25.09 at 8:27 pm

#53 Ally Ally Oxycontin Free on 03.25.09 at 11:53 am
Would I “be happy” to have my hydro bill reflect the impact of harmonization [ ? ] Hey, Guess What …

Electricity Bill Through March 5 2009 [ TAX ON WATER = NIL ]

ELECTRICITY ……………….. $72.13

DELIVERY……………………. $55.58

REGULATORY CHARGES…….$ 8.49

DEBT RETIREMENT…………..$ 8.65

GST……………………………..$ 7.24

TOTAL ELECTRICITY……….$152.09**

HARMONIZED TAX [ 13 % ] $163.68***

ADDED COST ………………..$ 11.59***

***Peak Summer Usage…..[ o]

#53

We paid for 64 days $356.45, $35.74 HST $35.75 for a total of $392.19. We used

Base 10.83/m + $ 5.08
Base 10.83m $16.58
Energy @ $0.10670/KWH 72.56
[email protected]/KWH 262.23

Total energy charges $356.45

Other charges HST $46.34
Provincial Rebate $10.60
Total bill is $392.19 for 64 days – 16 to Feb 18/09. We used 2903 Kwh.

I do 2 full loads of wash a week, 2 dishwasher loads per week and we have our wood stove going basically 24/7.

BTW, last year we paid $2,375.94 in taxes on a house that was assessed at $209,500. Thank goodness the tax assessers are lazy here. Our taxes this year have only increased by about $100.+, but services have decreased. We’ve got major potholes. everywhere. I sometimes think I’ll have an accident just trying to avoid them. Less than in Mtl. though.

#96 Grumpydawgs on 03.25.09 at 9:28 pm

#85 go-green , why should the individuals (you refer to) personal planning deficit neccessarily the tax payers burden? Do I owe someone a paycheque when they fall short after not having made any plan to support themselves? What happened to the concept of personal responsibility? There is no rational ecomomic argument that suggests that it is impossible for every individual to live within thier means. If this means working at a lower rate of pay commensurate with your commercial utility potential then so be it.

The example of high school drop outs making $79 dollars an hour to do nothing more than show up on time to work an assembley line job building autos is a case in point. What did they ever contribute to thier own betterment other than get swallowed up into a union. If they were highly skilled workers who put in years at a higher education facility I think you can make the point that they would deserve more consideration. Being 60 or 65 is not an excuse to whine.

Why not spend our tax dollars on hospital construction and new text books for students rather than support an artificial lifestyle for an individual of any age who took no personal responsibility for thier own affairs during thier lifetime?

No one tells you to invest in money losing offerings, you must convince yourself to do that. The act of investing is based on greed; when you lose money investing it’s nobody’s fault but your own. I could go on about why I’m not broke due to my own personal responsibility and asset class diversification but that would be redundant to this conversation.

#97 Realistically Speaking on 03.25.09 at 9:45 pm

#83 CalgaryRocks –
Too bad the government is not a saver meaning that it will have to increase taxes just to pay for increased interest payments.

Eh?

The eventual tax impact of governments’ buying out everything in sight, as well as its purchase of incredible amounts of long-term debt with funny-money to force interest rates down is going to be astronomical, dude.

instead, if the greediest bastards (hi-mortgage houseowners, financial institutions, car manufacturers) were allowed to fail as they should, the government wouldn’t even need to pay interest on debt – because there wasn’t any, until recently !
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1089644515172_85053715/?hub=TopStories

(Except maybe for irresponsible Lie-beral fiefdoms like Detroit North, and such like).

If bond prices collapse, the Chinese, etc will get awfully wrapped around the axle about it and demand higher interest rates for any debt they held. But, that’s the problem of silly foreign governments who wage wars on borrowed money, or have fiscal arrangements with the local mafia, and shovel debt onto taxpayers for that reason.
(ref On the Take: Crime, Corruption and Greed in the Mulroney Years, by Stevie Cameron, 1994.)

#98 CalgaryRocks on 03.25.09 at 9:56 pm


Thank you for the endorsement of separation. What the hell. Just because it was the French Canadians that opened up the West – including Alberta, why should we continue to tolerate a strong, independent thinking culture?

Calgary “rocks”… gee I thought is was an oil and cow town… and we all know the by product of cows…

Well, unfortunately for your ignorant logic about Calgary, I lived in Montreal most of my life so I know exactly what I am talking about. There is no independent thinking in Quebec. Just a bunch of sheep that lean so far to the left that they need crutches. Last time you had someone right of center on the radio you feathered him.

You all live way beyond your means, have social programs that you cannot afford, paid by the ROC that cannot even dream of having the same. Please separate. You won’t have to buy a plane ticket to get the full Cuba experience.

BTW, is Pauline Marois still proud that 50% of Quebecers are too poor to pay income tax? Hmm, what a proud people you guys are! Vive le Quebec libre. Tu degages tu alors ou quoi?

http://lapresseaffaires.cyberpresse.ca/opinions/chroniques/200901/09/01-692370-impots-qui-paie-la-facture-au-quebec.php

#99 CalgaryRocks on 03.25.09 at 10:21 pm

If you had been reading something other than Calgary press, you might have known that Quebec has been saying it would be better off without the hand-outs. We have also shown the Harperites that our votes cannot be bought. Can you?

Hey! I listen to Radio Pirate on XM almost every day.
Your vote was not ‘bought’, au contraire. Harper cut the culture budget by 1 percentage point and you got upset, started crying, had a major temper trantrum province wide, stomped your feet, hit your head on the wall a few times and voted for the Bloc. Congratulations for your ‘independent’ thought. ha ha

#100 GTA001 on 03.26.09 at 2:06 am

Premier Dalton “dimwit” McGuinty and the Liberal Government first elected on October 23, 2007 and again for a second term on October 10, 2007 on the perception that the Harris/Eves PC Party “wrecked” the Province.

So what has happened to the economy over the last 7 years? As most of the blogger’s on this web site know the government came into power as the largest housing boom in history began thanks to Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan and Bank of Canada Governor David Dodge lowering the interest rate.

The result was expanded economic activity, higher tax revenue and expansion of government programs.

However, during this time did the McGuinty Liberal Government ever develop a strategic plan for the long term economic development of the province? Lets See

The Liberal Government passed the Clean Water Act after the Walkerton Incident of May 2000. Although inspections and enforcement has improved, municipalities are still facing capital expenditures in the billions to bring water treatment plants up to standards. At present the MOE exempts municipalities from enforcement and public reporting requirements for wastewater treatment plants which need billions to meet current and future standards.

The Premier, who is desperate to fast track public transit projects especially in the GTA has gutted the quality of environmental assessment standards by requiring them to be completed in 6 months. So we will see the St Clair Rapid Transit EA project disaster repeated in many areas of Metro Toronto as Mayor Miller embarks on the $6 billion Transit City project that will bankrupt the City of Toronto. This completes a trend in which the MOE will never allow a 5 year Individual EA for difficult projects as it will allow less stringent Class EA process for infrastructure projects.

The province has passed the “Places to Grow” urban structure plan for the GTA. The plan will confine development ( mixed uses)to existing built up areas and preserve Class A farmland. However there needs to be more effort to preserve drinking water, limit developers who own land to build subdivision due to grandfather provisions in planning act legislation and allow people to do limited severance/sell land.

The municipal property assessment system is in shambles because its is still based on a “Market Value” system. Critics of the system want a new process based either on lot size, or by how much utility services it uses or burdens the municipality etc. There is every indication that assessments will go up (depending on where you live)imposing a higher property tax burden on homeowners.

The Liberal Government has taken a hand’s off approach in dealing with Municipalities such as the City of Toronto which has nearly destroyed its financial management system by politicizing the bureaucracy, engaging in party politics, disenfranchising citizens in the democratic political process and using the budget process to pity the core city against the suburbs over resource allocation. The Province alone has the power to stop these abuses of power once and for all. It can create a new Municipal Act that takes control of all the Auditor General’s of municipalities and put them under the control of the Ontario Auditor General.That annual audits of municipal financial statements be done and recommendations are binding on City Council. It should allow the Province to FIRE the Mayor and Executive committee that are found guilty of financial mismanagement. It should allow the Province to take over any municipality that is insolvent and create a financial control board that is identical to the ones use by New York State in Buffalo and Erie County since 2004. That they have the power to appoint councillor’s for a interim period before regular elections. An finally disputes for control of the office of mayor such as in Vaughan be settled by the Province by the Lt General in Council (cabinet) after an investigation in which a person will either be confirmed, removed and someone be appointed or councillor’s subverting the democratic process be fired!

The Liberal Government wants to pump $9 billion dollars into transportation infrastructure in the next two years. However it is waffling on a decision to take over all the transit system’s in the GTA through Metrolinx. The TTC is one of the main obstacles for transit integration in the GTA. It claims that other municipalities do not want to share transit cost in inter-municipal contracts, but they have made little or no effort to resolve past disputes.

The Liberal Government has an “inconsistent” energy policy. They are having a difficult time winding down polluting coal fired stations, spending billions fixing Bruce and Pickering Nuclear power stations.They are getting ready to award a new contract to build a new nuclear power station at a cost of at least $14 billion.They are also exempting these facilities from comprehensive EA’s over complaints that they take too long and hold up construction of important projects.

The Minister of Infrastructure and Energy, Mr George S, who has more brawn than brains is championing a green energy plan that is not well thought out. They even pushed for a green audit for people selling their homes when there is a shortage of trained inspectors. What is interesting is that the Ministry is not even promoting conservation and energy audits which could save all types of building 40% in energy costs? This at a time when the cost of producing and transmitting energy is being passed to the consumer by rate increases in excess of 10%!

The Province is powerless to stop the growing $14 billion health care budget. The premier imposed a $2 billion/year health care tax to pay for new hospitals, hire nurses and buy new MRI equipment. At present, hospitals are short 5,000 nurses, closing beds, reducing care for the elderly( a long term trend), infirm and terminal patients and I have seen it first had as my best friends dad passed away from a terminal illness early this year.

When the manufacturing sector was being decimated, losing 300,000 jobs last year, why did the Premier decide not to reduce taxes on the industry. A 1% reduction could have put hundreds of millions maybe even billions in the pockets of industry to allow them to retool, modernize and save some of the jobs that were lost.

The Job retraining program promoted by the Liberal Government is nothing more than a SCAM. Is the Premier not aware that jobs are being created in biotechnology/medical instruments, space/satellite technology, media&telecommunications and engineering/instrumentation&environmental industries
and computer technology/optical instruments.

Nula Beck in her 1993 book “Where the Jobs Are” is of the opinion that E-technology industries are emerging such as bioengineering, engineered materials science for aerospace/space exploration, new energy technology such as Zero point Energy (ZPE), nuclear fusion, ion power and battery cell technology for cars/buses and maybe even trucks in the future?

If this is the case why is the government refusing to pump money into colleges and universities to reduce tuition costs(by expanding grants and loans) for first time and returning older students, create centers of innovation such as the case of RIM near the University of Waterloo in Kitchener. Why have they not encourage private-public partnerships in manufacturing industries looking for innovative solutions in solar technology research which is underway at McMaster University. Why is there little or no research on biomass energy technology which is being pursued at full speed in India of all places?

The Minister of Finance, Mr David Duncan is to announce to Ontario residents an $18 billion dollar deficit. The Premier wants to harmonize the GST and PST into the HST.

Look, I actually followed the discussion on the creation of the GST when Michael Wilson was Minister of Finance for the Mulroney Conservative Government in 1985. The technical papers (of which I still have) were difficult to understand. From what I know the GST was designed to accomplish four policy objectives. They are: (1)was to help manufacturers be globally competitive;(2) allow harmonization with the province if they choose to reduce duplication of paperwork (3) tax a broad base of goods and services and (4) halt the increase of personal income taxes that was causing the growth of the underground economy.

The GST under the Paul Martin Liberal Government was set at 7% and was raising at least $1.7 billion/month to around $22-24 billion per year. Most of the money was use to reduce the interest on the national debt, pay down the principal ($550 billion) and build up reserves for any economic crisis.

The Stephen Harper Conservative Government, still believing in supply side economics cut the GST to 5% and gave away most of the surpless in pre-election spending and lost revenue. Now they are facing deficits of between 64 and 80 billion in the next two years as the stimulus package is needed to blunt the impact of the deepening recession.

I actually support the GST for the sake of the manufacturing sector in Ontario. There is no doubt in my mind that the PST and GST will be harmonized and that we will pay and extra 1% for a total of 13%. Premier McGuinty will probably allow some rebates on sensitive consumer items, but the goal of broadening the base of the HST will be achieved. I have to agree with the opinions of some of the blogger’s on this web site who fear that the impact of the HST on services may drive more money underground.

In the end the provincial government will generate a lot more money especially to pay down the interest on its $110 billion dollar debt.

The main problem I have with the McGuinty Liberal Government is that it is run by polls and does not want to be seen as controversial or rushing into decision that will anger a constituency it needs for reelection in October 2010.

This government simply does not have a clear, well thought out and coherent plan for future growth which could be a sustainable/energy efficient green economy.

#101 GTA001 on 03.26.09 at 2:39 am

Correction

The McGuinty Liberal Government was first elected on October 23, 2003. sorry for the typo error!

#102 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 03.26.09 at 8:29 am

#74 bobs your uncle on 03.25.09 at 4:03 pm

You should have been more specific. Now, exactly who would you prefer to ‘paw through our luggage’ at airports?

I remember an email I recieved from a friend in Kandahar with our Canadian Forces advising of the letter from the Taliban Minister of Migration. It read as follows:

Dear Canadian Commander,

Please be advised that if you continue to attack our Taliban we will cause your supply of Convenience Store Managers to be terminated.

If you fail to comply after that then we will terminate your supply of Taxi Cab Drivers.

And if still you persist, we are cutting off your Bell Customer Service Rep source!

Sincerely,

Taliban Minister of Migration
Achmed da Camel

#103 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 03.26.09 at 9:15 am

#96 Grumpydawgs on 03.25.09 at 9:28 pm

Do you take into account the fact that people are not able to control many financial aspects of their lives such as income, housing costs, insurance, vehicle repairs, emergencies, etc., not to mention catastrophic health situation that make it impossible for people to work?

Not everyone has smooth sailing through life and that is why we, as caring human beings, have social support programs.

#104 bobs your uncle on 03.26.09 at 9:42 am

#100 Bill,

Do we really need anyone pawing through our luggage? Since 911 they have developed an industry based on fear mongering with no accountability to the public. Do you believe $5 billion is a reasonable ammount for Olympic security? It’s totaly insane!

#105 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 03.26.09 at 10:43 am

#100 GTA001 on 03.26.09 at 2:06 am

I found it quite interesting and enlightening that President Obama, in his Tuesday night address, specifically used the term ‘sustainable economy.’ This is what the Green Party has been saying for years. It is logically the ONLY way to go and grow!

You might have caught the program ‘Wierd Science’ which dealt with the advances in Fusion Power? It reminds me of the old PBS program with James Burke ‘Connections’ as they take five things and show how they beget progress.

Unfortunately, after eight years of Bush the Moron, and now Harper and his entoruage of anti-science Funnymentalists we have fallen far behind in research in North America and it has migrated back to Europe with the French and CERN.

We have thousands of patents for innovations that would have reduced, if not totally eliminated many of the pollution and fuel resources problems we face today. As has been the case, the auto manufacturers and oil companies bought those patents or otherwise restricted their inclusion in the solutions we seek.

Likewise, we now see Harper stripping our NRC of funding and Canada losing more great minds to elsewhere. These ideological Neanderthals are taking us back to the Dark Ages.

President Obama also discussed the ethics and morality issues between adult and embryonic Stem Cell research and has that much need medical advancement advancing again.

Personally, at 63 I stand dumbfounded how we have backtracked progress after a lifetime of watching us, to properly use the phrase, ‘moving forward.’

The one area I cannot support however is NASA’s quest to colonize other planets like Mars. Until we have achieved homeostasis on Earth we have no business spreading our dysfunctionalities to other places, nor spending such huge sums doing so when we have people in real need here.

BTW, I worked on both the Apollo and STS projects, so I am not anti space, just anti-wasteful spending chasing pipe dreams. The STS mission has been very assistant to our current day expanding knowledge of this planet.

Unfortunately, we know, as one commentator aptly stated ‘More about Mars than our own oceans!’ The oceans hold the key to almost everything including climate stability, food and medicinal sources, and the largest fuel source on Earth…Hydrogen.

Also unfortunately my acronym for the word ‘politics’ is proving truer and truer every day ‘People Obviously Lacking Intelligent Thought In Critical Situations.’

#106 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 03.26.09 at 11:04 am

#104 bobs your uncle on 03.26.09 at 9:42 am

Yes, I do. I used to fly all the time and inspections have been around long before 9/11. As society deteriorates due to a lack of functional social programs people and the greed of so many, people will go farther off the deep end. I prefer to choose safety from such people.

As a pilot I can assure you the need is real, very real. When the S**t hits the fan, you cannot simply pull over and deal with it. We tend to call it the ‘Gravity of the situation!’

As to the Olympics..What an idiotic waste of money at a time like this. However, if they are going to have them then security is far more than anti-terrorist actions. People tend to get out of control when enmass and need security present to protect the innocent. These are certified police officers who deserve every penny they are paid. I am sure a lot of the money is for technical monitoring equipment as well. In fact, go to the CN Tower in Toronto and you will pass through hi-tech sniffer equipment as well as bag/parcel inspection.

Consider the Polish traveller at Vancouver airport. Regardless of anything else, most people have enough sense to realize you do not go to a foreign country and start trashing a room, resisting arrest, and disobeying law enforcement commands. The MSM have blown the entire thing way past the reality point. He asked for what he got…control.

While it is unfortuante he died he brought it on himself by continuing to fight restraint. Had that been in the States they would have billy-clubed him into submission or merely shot the dumbbass. BTW, his mother’s whining is even more pathetic than his actions IMO.

If it had been anywhere else it would not even have made the news. In fact most countries would have thrown him or his corpse into oblivion.

The MSM loves such stories like the breeding sow that is on welfare and has eight babies she is totally incapable of taking care of, and then chases the nurses out wanting to be in control of her self-made situation. Too bad she didn’t exhibit some control before chosing to get pregnant. She is the current Poster Child for sterilization.

With things like that it is no wonder the pendulum keeps swinging past Truth and balance and we see the rise of fascist governments out to destroy the progress we have made because of a few. That then produces its own abuses which swings the pendulum back the other way into La la Land Bleeding Heart Liberalism.

That is why I am a Centrist, have been, and always will be.

#107 Grumpydawgs on 03.26.09 at 1:37 pm

#103, BM , if you can’t afford a car or the insurance you shouldn’t be driving, it’s not a right it’s a privelage. If you can’t afford a house then rent something you can afford in a place you can find affordable rent. Living within your means is the theme here. No one goes without healthcare or support due to catastrophic injury. In fact the system would be much healthier if there weren’t so many parasites riding free.

#108 Din Kay Dau on 03.26.09 at 3:47 pm

#106 Muskoka Nam,

It’s puzzling how you feel we need so much police protection when the only murder I recall at Vancouver International was done by 4 steroid monkeys in uniform.

#109 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 03.26.09 at 4:57 pm

#107 Grumpydawgs on 03.26.09 at 1:37 pm

Wow! Your depth of compassion for others is underwhelming! I hope you get to experience yourself someday. Get back to us then, eh?

All those people able to control rent prices, or other necessity pricing, and such are the real parasites in our society. Bet you’re one of THEM?

#110 mike from oakville on 03.26.09 at 4:59 pm

thanks for the link Garth – i sent Dalton an email congratulating him on this long overdue measure!

#111 Marc on 03.26.09 at 9:10 pm

Consider the Polish traveller at Vancouver airport. Regardless of anything else, most people have enough sense to realize you do not go to a foreign country and start trashing a room, resisting arrest, and disobeying law enforcement commands. The MSM have blown the entire thing way past the reality point. He asked for what he got…control.
#106 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 03.26.09 at 11:04 am

Bill, I do not think the MSM has blown this story past the reality point. For one, the Polish immigrant could not understand the commands, so while that is not the RCMPs fault, it can be hardly blamed on the new immigrant either. All 4 RCMP members, who are trained to accuratly observe and report what they see, all have the same conflicting statements then what the video that was recorded shows. Collusion much?

If we are to believe all 4 RCMP members, and take their story as credible, then we must also believe Cpl. Monty Robinson, who alledgedly hit and killed a motorcyclist. He offered no assistence, to save the mans life, drove home, consumed 2 shots of vodka, before returning to the accident scene drunk, but he wasn’t drunk at the time of the accident. Playing us for stupid much?

This same Cpl. Robinson, had his taser certificate expired, first aid ticket expired, and he was the supervising Cpl. at the airport, when the Polish man died. Does the RCMP not have procedures to make sure their potential first responders, hold valid first aid tickets? My employer sends me for re-training before my ticket lapses. I would think the RCMP would be more on the ball then a small steel company?

This YVR fiasco while being not the norm in police procedure, is a black eye on the entire force. Mr. Dzkanski has some responcibility, but can hardly be solely blamed for his death. Foreign language, no interpreter at an international airport, and tasered 5 times. I believe it is recomended not to be used more then twice on a person. Perhaps if the senior officer at the scene had had a valid license for what he was commanding to be used, may have prevented a death?

#112 Andy T on 03.26.09 at 10:48 pm

On one side, try to show that helping the poor and unemployed by lower income tax, increase benefit and business incentive programme [ may be wrongly allocated]. Then, apply 13% tax to almost everything to increase tax revenue for Ontario.
What Ontario government doing just re-allocate the wealth to big business, so that they can write off more to pay less tax and transfer the tax to our hard working Canadian. The large corporation steal a turkey [from the poor with government help] by return the poor a peanut.
Does it able to cover the deficit in Ontario? Will the policy help Ontario solve the problem?

#113 bobs your uncle on 03.26.09 at 11:13 pm

#106 Bill Muskoka,

When I read “as a pilot I can assure you” the coffee spit through my nose. At least you are good for a laugh!

#114 Grumpydawgs on 03.27.09 at 1:53 am

“The need for security”, isn’t that pleonasm? In fact what we need are policemen. In fact what we don’t have is policemen. Before the misguided Liberal policies of minority inclusion at any cost, politically correct diversity and media platitudes we had policemen on the force who went entire careers without ever pulling out or discharging thier sidearms. Today we have college student grads and minority hires who simply aren’t suited to police work and fire thier weapons without hesitation due to thier inability to do a policemans job.

They are doing policework because it’s a ‘career opportunity’ , because they were recruited due to thier ethnicity or race. But physically and mentally they have neither the strength or the personality it takes to do ploicework.

Before this generation lit up thier mothers faces policemen were tough guys who chewed nails and drank thier breakfast. They were to become ‘neanderthals’ to the politically correct Liberals and minority organizations looking to employ new immigrants to balance the public service.

The problem is that none of these new generation politically correct recruits are suited for the real world of policework. You see a perfect example of this in the four frightened boys who shot Robert Djikanski to death with a tazer weapon at Vancouver Airport. They were scared to death that they were going to have to confront this man and not just giving a speeding ticket to a frightened housewife. Their first reaction was to shoot him.

In the policeman of old we would have seen the officers manhandle Mr. Djikanski most likely, a good policeman could handle himself and wasn’t afraid to get his uniform dirty. We have created a policeforce of cowards who are probably fine young men and women who are better suited to product presentation or bank clerical work. You are far more likely to be killed by a policeman/woman today than you would have been twenty years ago and before.

The statistics bear this out. I have the sneaking suspicion that the RCMP knows this due to thier tenacious hold on the tazer weapon which they now know has caused the deaths of hundreds of victims. Twenty years ago and before 99% of these deaths would never have happened.

#115 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 03.27.09 at 9:03 am

#111 Marc on 03.26.09 at 9:10 pm

What didn’t he understand about the officer’s hands indicating to him to get down? The arsehole was willfully out of control. I bet everyone travels to foreign countries and starts trashing their airport facilities because they ‘feel like it!’

As to the other bleeding hearts commenting. Next time, probably your very first actually, that you find yourself in a basic Oh-Shit situation, please do not call the Police because they might have to do something hard to deal with the situation. Instead call your mommy.

Oh, and if you happen to be caught in the pressurized metal tube commonly referred to as an ‘aircraft’ and some psycho decides it is time to die, please ask the flight attendent for a Perrier to calm your nerves.

And No Whining about some arsehole who endangers you on the highway either. You wouldn’t want the police to do something rash like seize the idiot’s vehicle and license…Gawd forbid some arsehole should be inconvenienced for the safety of the public.

Yes Sir, we live in a perfect world where nothing can go wrong…go wrong…go wrong!

#116 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 03.27.09 at 9:09 am

#114 Grumpydawgs on 03.27.09 at 1:53 am

Sure hope you need some of those ‘cowards’ some day. I know quite a few of them. They are surely all cowards and wimps unlike the Thugs of the Good Old Days who were hired to ‘enforce’ the ruling class’s will on the people.

I would love to pass your real name onto them so they could not be bothered helping you. Fact is they would still come to your assistance because that is what they DO! However, most, after repeatedly experiencing an asshole tend to let nature take its natural course because they just hate interring with the asshole’s choice to be stupid over, and over again!

#117 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 03.27.09 at 9:39 am

#108 Din Kay Dau on 03.26.09 at 3:47 pm

Perhaps you prefer the Khumer Rouge’s methods to our law enforcement tactics?

#118 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 03.27.09 at 9:44 am

#111 Marc on 03.26.09 at 9:10 pm

Had he complied and not continued to resist arrest, after committing acts of vandalism and threatening the airport staff and officers, he would not have brought on the need to be repeatedly TASERed to get him to submit? When Law enforcement orders you to Stand Down, sit down, or lay down…DO IT!

At that point they have already assessed the situation and determined you are a DANGER to them, yourself, and the public, usually based on YOUR ACTIONS!

#119 Bill-Muskoka (NAM) on 03.27.09 at 9:52 am

Oh, and perhaps the REAL cause of it all was some CBSA agent who either forgot they had held him for 10 long hours, or otherwise failed to follow through in their duties? Perhaps they were waiting on some Minsiter’s aide to get back to them. Someone dropped the ball BIG TIME in the CBSA!

There is the person that mitigated the situation initially. Dravinsky was in a state of RAGE! He acted way across the line and brought on the confrontation, but was also allegedly not dealt with in a timely manner.

Still, one does not go into a vandalizing temper tantrum in a foreign country’s airport and not expect to be dealt with buy law enforcement and in most countries far more harshly than happend here.

#120 bobs your uncle on 03.27.09 at 4:53 pm

#119 Bill,

How do you get “far more harshly” than being dead?

#121 Winking on 03.28.09 at 12:29 am

#113 Bobs your Uncle

“When I read “as a pilot I can assure you” the coffee spit through my nose. At least you are good for a laugh!”

What? Never heard of a Blo viator? Boosters attached at the rear, and they make a h*ll of a sucking sound.