Worse than zero

They said it could never happen.

For the first time in eight years the average digs in Toronto is cheaper than the year before. Imagine if last February or March when GTA properties were Bitcoin-hot that someone had told you real estate would end the year negative. You’d have been disbelieving. Incredulous. Flummoxed. Such a thing was impossible, because the Toronto Real Estate Board said so!

“Home ownership continues to be a great investment and remains very important to the majority of GTA households,” stated the realtors in Feb. “As we move through 2017, we expect the demand for ownership housing to remain strong, including demand from first-time buyers who, according to a recent Ipsos survey, could account for more than half of transactions this year. However, many of these would-be buyers will have problems finding a home that meets their needs in a market with very little inventory.

“The number of active listings on TREB’s MLS® System at the end of January was essentially half of what was reported as available at the same time last year.  That statistic, on its own, tells us that there is a serious supply problem in the GTA – a problem that will continue to play itself out in 2017.  The result will be very strong price growth for all home types again this year.”

Well, prices did grow – fanned by  realtor fanaticism – then it stopped. At $761,757 today’s average is a year/year drop of 2%. If you factor in the current inflation rate, houses are 3.5% less. And if we’re talking detached homes only, at $1.276 million, the average is down 5% before inflation and negative 6.5% in real terms. Of course if you bought a home for that amount you paid $43,000 in land transfer tax, and it will cost $64,000 in commission to sell. So the actual loss of a one-year hold would be higher by another $107,000. And the inventory of available homes has exploded. Meanwhile the Dow is up 23% and a boring balanced portfolio is ahead 9.5%. Did mama tell you there’d be years like this?

Two factors worth noting: As in Vancouver, this market is being driven by condo sales and clueless first-time buyers who think boxes with monthly fees attached are a good investment. Poor little lambs. In YVR, for example, the sales-to-listing ratios tell the tale. For detached properties it is a lowly 15.9% and for condos, an outrageous 68%. That’s why detached prices are fading and condo values have scorched over 20% higher. Single-family homes in Toronto, for example, are 12% cheaper than they were in May. So just imagine this market’s performance if the apartments were stripped out.

Second, so much for the big stampede of buyers the industry told us would materialize in the months before the universal stress test arrived. Sales in November were barely ahead of those in October and represented a 13% decline from the same month a year ago. Howcum? Maybe news of B20’s arrival has yet to make it to SnapChat or IG. Perhaps prices in general have hit the wall. Or maybe with the detached market sagging, the Bank of Mom is having second thoughts about making new loans.

Speaking of which, if you believe the house-pumpers at Sotheby’s Realty Canada, Boomers have but one reason to continue on with their vacuous, spent lives – to buy their failed 30-something children real estate.

In reading the company’s report this week, blog dog Joe sent me this: “In more instances than I care to admit in my adult life, my reasonably well off but not wealthy parents have helped me out financially with amounts ranging from a couple thousand to five thousand dollars or a few months back at home in my 20’s rent free (boomerang kid) when I’ve suffered a setback, say, due to job loss. I’ve paid most of it back, expressed my gratitude, and swallowed my pride (I’m not OK with this). Is parents giving their adult children large sums to buy real estate, writing junior a cheque for $250K so he could buy a nice townhouse in an up and coming neighbourhood of Toronto or Vancouver for his new family, something new, or is it a phenomenon that has happened frequently in the past but just not been talked about?”

It’s fresh, Joe. Never happened before that so many adults lived with their parents, or so much cash was sucked of family finances to gift to the spawn. This is a new age, indeed, when (according to Sotheby’s) 74% of parents recommend their kids buy real estate in their city and fully a third of all Boomers intend to help finance it. Of those, almost 60% say junior will end up with a place worth between $350,000 and $500,000.

So what do we make of this?

When most parents report their kids would not have qualified for a mortgage without the gift of a down payment – which is essentially contributing to the fraudulent behaviour the new stress test targets – we have a problem. Interest rates will absolutely be higher in 2018 than now. Credit will be reduced. On Tuesday Mortgage Professionals Canada said 18% of buyers will be affected next year and up to 50,000 fewer properties sold. Ouch. Already that river of money chasing detached houses has started to dry. And condos have inflated as a result and are now (as in Edmonton and Calgary) at serious risk of being overbuilt. Is this really where you want your kid to spend your money, incurring a life-altering mortgage that will cost more every renewal?

I know you want her out of the basement, but, jeez, have a heart… You need somebody around to tell you what a Satoshi is.

146 comments ↓

#1 Yeah on 12.05.17 at 5:53 pm

Great post Garth… Worse than Zero.. haha.. enjoying :-)

#2 Dipstick on 12.05.17 at 5:55 pm

where’s Mark to tell us about poloz and deflation?
And let the house prices fall down in Toronto and Vancouver. The rent is too damn high!
I want real estate to collapse to fair market value in Canada, while my Canadian loonies should bet at 81 to 84 cents if you compare the downward trend of oil prices in mid-2014 and the Canadian dollar at that time.

#3 binky barnes on 12.05.17 at 5:55 pm

Oh for the love of condominium….tell me I am first.

#4 Nic on 12.05.17 at 5:56 pm

Despite all the warnings, information and reasons why: vancouver and fraser valley are up AGAIN. It is and has defied ALL logic. Attached is up substantially, up from an already inflated 2016. Insane.

#5 Greater Fool on 12.05.17 at 6:02 pm

Forget about Bitcoin, the new BIG technology is IOTA.

#6 surprise hike? on 12.05.17 at 6:04 pm

much chatter about a surprise move by Poloz tomorrow.. early Christmas present?

#7 Marcus on 12.05.17 at 6:14 pm

Here we go again. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-12-05/second-cockroach-canadian-mortgage-lender-crashes-after-admitting-mortgage-fraud

#8 Howard on 12.05.17 at 6:25 pm

Boy Wonder totally bombs in China.

Next time he should bring Crusty, if she has emerged from hiding.

#9 maka on 12.05.17 at 6:30 pm

If prices are up, this would appear on the first page of real state pumping sites in bold letters with sold signs.

Today this news is buried deep under the fake news.

#10 FVRB sales on 12.05.17 at 6:31 pm

nicely massaged numbers

http://www.fvreb.bc.ca/statistics/Package201711.pdf

the peak is in the rear view mirror

besides.. the FV is one ugly overbuilt and underserviced biatch

who wants to live there anymore if they don’t have to?

#11 akashic record on 12.05.17 at 6:34 pm

#6 surprise hike? on 12.05.17 at 6:04 pm

much chatter about a surprise move by Poloz tomorrow.. early Christmas present?

Out of curiosity, how much would be your personal monetary gain if he did?

How much gain would you actually be able to keep, considering increased taxes that would certainly follow in order to finance the higher cost of public debt?

Are you really certain, that any gain from higher interest rate will be passed on to you personally?

#12 Mark on 12.05.17 at 6:34 pm

“where’s Mark to tell us about poloz and deflation?”

Right here. Actually something very interesting has been occurring over the past few weeks. I keep track of a benchmark based on funding costs in the Canadian economy which historically tracks the Bank of Canada policy target rate (currently 1%) fairly closely.

Prior to the recent rate hike, it more or less resembled the BoC policy rate, with a few extra basis points in anticipation of the hike. ie: when the BoC policy target was 0.75%, it was running at 0.8%, in anticipation.

Recently, even though the BoC policy target rate is now 1%, such effective inter-bank rate has collapsed to 0.75% and is trending even lower.

This tells me that there is deflationary pressure in the Canadian economy. That banks are cutting back on loans into the actual economy, and are merely hoarding cash. To have the inter-bank market suppressed by 25bp relative to the BoC target speaks volumes of what is likely coming down the pipeline, ie: a significantly weakening economy in 2018, and the probability of BoC policy rate cuts.

Curiously inter-bank rates in USD$ are trending higher, meaning that the opposite is perceived in the USA. Which keeps in line with what I’ve been saying all along — Canada and the US economies are structurally very different, and the interest rate environments will significantly, and perhaps severely diverge going forward.

11 months or so, in the ‘predictions’ thread, I ‘predicted’ a TSX of 16,500 end of year. Its unfortunately looking like, due to deflation, that such will not be achieved. No love for gold either, but cashflows at many of the mid-tier and senior miners are really exploding on account of deflationary pressures in the overall cost structure.

#13 Garthisnot god on 12.05.17 at 6:34 pm

Another day and another Canadian bank came out and said they have documentation problem on their mortgages which they sold to third party.bWell only third party alerted the bank

#14 Nonplused on 12.05.17 at 6:35 pm

My dad got around the stress test by just buying his kid a house himself. Imagine, retired and he has a mortgage for a house he doesn’t live in!

Oh well as long as it stays in his name I suppose it’s no different than any other investment property where the tenants don’t pay the rent on time.

I read on ZH today that another Canadian lender has crashed after admitting to fraud:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-12-05/second-cockroach-canadian-mortgage-lender-crashes-after-admitting-mortgage-fraud

Doesn’t sound like they are broke but it doesn’t look good. The article is worth a look just for the chart of US vs Canadian homes prices (indexed).

#15 Dippy-Do-Da on 12.05.17 at 6:36 pm

So it dips for 1 or 2 years. Big deal. Then back to 5-10% y/y increases the following 10 consecutive years.

#16 Every dog has its day on 12.05.17 at 6:38 pm

And this is your day Garth. Eight long years and you are finally out of the hund haus. Wunderbar!

Now, what are your predictions vis-a-vis the Trump train wreck on a collision course with the debt ceiling? Will they lockup the conductor before that happens?
Minding my own in Mimico

PS i don’t want to be a prude but #2 has to go…..

#17 Fluorine on 12.05.17 at 6:40 pm

Hmm… this sounds VERY familiar to what was happening here out West.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/china-risk-mortgages/

Fudging numbers to get mortgage deals done at any cost…

#18 Dolce Vita on 12.05.17 at 6:41 pm

Boomers are nuts. I cannot for the life me understand where the cash is coming from?

Half of them have, or will have, no other pension other than that from Canada Gov and have 1 years worth of savings.

Look at income distribution by age from StatsCan and the vast majority are in the 1st and 2nd income brackets.

Money has to be in the equity of homes which they must be borrowing against.

With rates rising it will get ugly for the Bank of Mom & Dad, financial suicide if you ask me, especially upon retirement.

Your article points today, the above, is why I say within 1 year Cdn. RE will have its largest devaluation in history.

#19 Old Ron the Realtor on 12.05.17 at 6:48 pm

7,374 Sales in November !!!

#20 young & foolish on 12.05.17 at 6:49 pm

Us younger people are counting on a break (either blockchain or a serious boomer asset deflation) to get out from under the overbearing previous generation.

We are ready to sweep the elders aside and bring in the future! Many are betting on new technology.

#21 acdel on 12.05.17 at 6:57 pm

Its seems too me that the lessons that many of us that have had to endure in the past is just not getting through to many of the current. So many of us recognize (although very obscure and shallow nowadays) how important freedom is!

My god, I hope it never happens again but if there was another World War, it’s unimaginable what would happen! It would be like nothing of the past and many of us remember what our parents, grandparents or even ourselves had to get through to just have a meal every second or third day.

The biggest mistake of having the T2 in power and others is that they have not learned from the past and really could care less about the past! This guy just baffles me; I am sure that he is a smart guy, likable but just has no clue due to his protectionist upbringing! I almost feel sorry for him, us!!!

Sorry dogs, one of those days, but what will it take ( I know honest politics which will never happen), it is degrading as we speak. Do not live a wasted life, enjoy the moment, pensions are controlled by a few just like real estate scam! Good or bad???? Beats me!!!

Gone ice fishing!

#22 Bob Dog on 12.05.17 at 6:58 pm

A Satoshi is the smallest unit a Bitcoin can be split into. Like a penny. A Satoshi is 100,000,000th of a bitcoin. This is a pyramid scheme. Nobody can afford a bitcoin any more but you can buy a tiny fraction of one on your credit card at CoinBase.

Fun Fact: There are about 355,000 lines of C++ code in the bitcoin repository. Given that a very good coder can produce around 100 lines of code per day thats 9.7 person years of work assuming you work 365 days per year. There is no way bitcoin was created in response to the financial terrorist attacks of 2007-2008. I bet my bottom dollar Bitcoin was created by Goldman Sachs for the sole purpose of shorting it and further fleecing the mindless sheep rushing to get rich quick.

#23 Eyestrain on 12.05.17 at 7:05 pm

#5 Greater Fool on 12.05.17 at 6:02 pm
Forget about Bitcoin, the new BIG technology is IOTA.
————-
Is IOTA a new electric car company? Or is it just a tiny bit of the air that surrounds the air that is Bitcoin?

PS Garth, you know I am not a prude, but you might want to have Ryan or somebody under 30 look at #2.

#24 the ryguy on 12.05.17 at 7:16 pm

Been living down In cabo for about a month now..big old FU to the winters in Canada, specifically Edmonton.

Anyway, little anecdote Ive picked up on down here. Met a ton of locals that are absolutely flummoxed as to how slow it is. They tell me this place is normally absolutely packed with Canadians, and this year its beyond dead.

I leased a condo for 6 months in a complex with probably 30 or so units. They tell me in years past its usually full capacity with Canucks. Right now Id guess there are 12 units occupied, from the folks Ive talked to, 6 of them are occupied by Canadians including myself.

Has everyone stopped dipping into their HELOCs? Whats going on up north? Are people starting to get worried? Hmmm, I wonder.

#25 AGuyInVancouver on 12.05.17 at 7:22 pm

#17 Fluorine on 12.05.17 at 6:40 pm
Hmm… this sounds VERY familiar to what was happening here out West.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/china-risk-mortgages/

Fudging numbers to get mortgage deals done at any cost…
_ _ _
Why is anyone surprised? If you import the people, you import the attitudes. If they see such get-rich-quick property speculation succeeding in China, why not try it in Canada with our ridiculous boy scout naivete? How many years into this capital influx, and only now governments are admitting there’s a money laundering problem? And the Trudeau Liberals still won’t admit it.

#26 David on 12.05.17 at 7:24 pm

Garth. Did you actually read Dunnings epic fail of analysis on the stress test. Somebody might want to let this dinosaur know that no lender is limiting itself to 32% GDS on uninsured loans. His impacted number is so high because he is using 2004 underwriting standards. seriously flawed.

#27 Lost...but not leased on 12.05.17 at 7:30 pm

Hmmmm

Parents assisting children ?

Potential of the parents home perhaps being dragged into a compromising mess thus involving both (i)parents home and (ii)children’s?

ie parents are forced to sell their own home and thus adding to growing RE inventory ?

#28 Andre on 12.05.17 at 7:30 pm

epic last sentence.

#29 Silly Billy on 12.05.17 at 7:41 pm

Maybe it is time we all moved…maybe to Kauai, I mean, it’s gorgeous!

http://kauairealestatepro.com

#30 Dan.t on 12.05.17 at 7:42 pm

I know you want her out of the basement, but, jeez, have a heart… You need somebody around to tell you what a Satoshi is.
———————————-
Haha, that was good! Love it!

Canada= me buy house
CanT afford house = me buy townhouse
Can’t afford townhouse = me buy condo
Who cares what I buy= me be super rich because all that matters is real estate at all cost. Of course Bank of Mom now needs to foot the down- but u can still tell your friends you bought it.

How does this sound… Central bankers knew there was structural problems with boomers retiring- massive obligations, Need economy to grow, inflate somehow to pay obligations back with toilet paper money so decided to give everyone free money. QE1-QE2-QE6- etc.. The smart ones recognize this and started buying up housing as a commodity- limited supply, store of wealthy, just like BTC. Look st all the incentives given to buy and spend on credit.

Actually, who cares , don’t feel like explaining anything, just like on cue, it’s over … not overnight but soon… BC witch hunt on corruption, stress tests , rising rates… bla bla, if and once we get through this mess, it’s gonna be all about growth for the next 20 yrs.. blockchain, tech, markets and investing/trading will be cool, u can see it coming.

Actually, forget that, just keep buying presales and 60ok condos with 800$ a month strata- taxes- special assessments, junk construction- it’s only pocket change to BC and GTA employees. And like I’ve often heard, hey, it’s only debt. Cool!

And you ready to call a top in BTC and crypto? Just like housing the last 8 years… I’ll take my chances for a short time yet. I say this is the 6-7 th inning…. hope I’m wrong though.

#31 crowdedelevatorfartz on 12.05.17 at 7:43 pm

@#2 Harvey Weinsteins Evil Twin

Are you twelve?

#32 crowdedelevatorfartz on 12.05.17 at 7:46 pm

@#19 Old Ron the dementia escapee

“7,374 Sales in November !!!”
++++++

Where? Mars?

#33 Where on 12.05.17 at 7:46 pm

#2
where’s Mark

Let us hope for his and the blog’s sake, he finally found employment?

#34 For those about to flop... on 12.05.17 at 7:48 pm

If this article had been written before 1989 ,it might have helped Bon Jovi stay away from the Bad Medicine…

M43BC

“Where Does Your Medicine Come From? This Map Shows You

Drugs and medicine are big business. In 2016, there was a 1.5% global decline in the total value of drug and medicine exports. Even with that drop, the industry’s players exported $318B, making drugs and medicine one of the world’s top industries. But where do all those pills, serums, and creams come from? We wanted to find out. So we dissected the data from 2016and broke it down by continent, country, and export totals. Then we put it on this map. Check it out.

Who gets all the medicine money?
For most of the world’s population, medicine comes from somewhere else. This is truest among residents of the Southern Hemisphere. As our map reveals, there is a big disparity between the industry’s export totals in the north and the south. And I mean big. The Northern Hemisphere exports 55 times more drugs and medicine than the Southern Hemisphere.

While Europe holds a dominating 79.2% market share, the entirety of Central America, South America, Africa, and Oceania export only 1.8% of the world’s drugs and medicine. Africa exports the fewest (0.2%), despite having 15% of the world’s population.

In Africa specifically, the disparity feels dubious. Africans are plagued with disease and illness, but have no significant market for drugs and medicine. That means that they need to import them all. Impoverished and dependent on foreign nations for medical support, Africans are in a bad spot.

America’s role in the drug market
In 2016, the U.S. exported drugs and medicine valued at $22.5B. That is more than every other country in the world, except for four:

France ($22.8B)

Belgium ($26.5B)

Switzerland ($39.9B)

Germany ($48.6B)

The U.S. eked out the U.K.’s sixth place spot by a mere $500M. In the Western Hemisphere, the U.S. has no rival in drug and medicine exports. Canada comes closest, at $7.4B. Mexico exported $1.2B. No nation in South or Central America has joined the billionaire’s club.

Market trends
In Europe, it’s obvious that all the cool kids are exporting drugs and medicine. The concentration of knowledge, training, medical manufacturing, and infrastructure that must cause (and result from) this huge market it makes it unlikely that the Europeans will see their market share disappear to another part of the world. In fact, European countries are still seeing impressive growth. Switzerland and the Netherlands in particular, have seen notable increases.

South Africa and Egypt – two of Africa’s three biggest economies – have developing drug and medicine export economies, but the numbers remain low. While it will probably be these two nations that lead the way in African medical development, they still have a long way to go before they become major players.”

https://howmuch.net/articles/world-map-of-drug-exports-2016

#35 KAC on 12.05.17 at 7:55 pm

I wonder how many young people who are hoping to see older people financially ruined are also hoping to inherit a home and other assets from their parents?

It will be interesting to hear their whining if the greatest ever inter-generational transfer of wealth doesn’t happen.

#36 VanMan on 12.05.17 at 8:02 pm

“It’s fresh, Joe. Never happened before that so many adults lived with their parents, or so much cash was sucked of family finances to gift to the spawn. This is a new age, indeed, when (according to Sotheby’s) 74% of parents recommend their kids buy real estate in their city and fully a third of all Boomers intend to help finance it. Of those, almost 60% say junior will end up with a place worth between $350,000 and $500,000.

So what do we make of this?”

I surmise that it is different this time. If it has never been done, then by definition, it is different.

I surmise that it is different this time. If it has never been done, then by definition, it is different.

If you had waited a year and paid rent in Vancouver for example, then you’ve likely paid $2,000 x 12 = $24,000. Add that in to the cost of waiting a year as well. If you’re buying to live you may as well just do it. If you’re buying to speculate and flip well then you’ve been smarter than me the past 10 years so I’m not going to tell you what to do.

Real estate may be down a couple points year over year, but it aint going to crash. No way no how. If you’re buying somewhere to live and you can manage the costs, then do it.

In YVR we have been waiting and waiting and waiting…the tides not turning nor will it. For all the taxes, and crackdowns and legislation, and whatever else has been thrown at it, nothing has worked…there’s a reason for this.

#37 SmarterSquirrel on 12.05.17 at 8:04 pm

Garth,

I guess the generation buying condos now is too young to have seen the movie Fight Club. So they never learned the lesson “The things you own… end up owning you.” Someone should tell them how much better off they would be saving and investing than they are going to be buying a condo in Toronto today.

Instead people seem determined to buy more and more stuff.

#38 SoggyShorts on 12.05.17 at 8:08 pm

#20 young & foolish on 12.05.17 at 6:49 pm
Us younger people are counting on a break (either blockchain or a serious boomer asset deflation) to get out from under the overbearing previous generation.

We are ready to sweep the elders aside and bring in the future! Many are betting on new technology.
****************************
Is hard work in a field that possibly isn’t your dream job an option? We’re constantly having a hard time hiring labourers despite paying 60-80K a year.
Nothing wrong with getting your hands dirty.

M37AB

#39 Cdn Mom on 12.05.17 at 8:09 pm

BC is a money laundering Mecca. Just see today’s Vancouver Sun. Complicit BC Liberals.

Ontarians gouged more for electricity. Wynne’s Liberal shenanigans lead to Japanese shenanigans, costing Ontario electricity consumers $100 million.

Ontario gas plant ‘gamed’ the system out of $100M, report finds

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/ontario-gas-plant-gamed-the-system-out-of-100m-report-finds-1.3708305

Named gas plant, Goreway, is owned by Toyota and Chubu Electric Power…both Japanese companies.

Liberal governments are incompetent, corrupt, or both.

#40 For those about to flop... on 12.05.17 at 8:13 pm

Recent Sale Report.

This bad boy got a new owner 10 days ago.

2883 w 43rd Ave, Vancouver.

Originally asking 2.883 then 2.775 then 2.699 then 2.525

Sold for 2.365

Tax assessment 2.702

Since this is a Bon Jovi themed blog, they hired Faith Wilson and decided to Keep the Faith…

M43BC

https://www.zolo.ca/vancouver-real-estate/2883-w-43rd-avenue

http://faithwilsongroup.com/listings/2883-west-43rd-avenue/

#41 IHCTD9 on 12.05.17 at 8:22 pm

Neil Macdonald has been reading here and taking notes:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/tax-avoidance-1.4432594

#42 Long-Time Lurker on 12.05.17 at 8:27 pm

The smell of equity evaporating is in the air.

Paul Craig Roberts (supply-side economics prof) lambasted the Trump tax cuts. I’m more hopeful. The U.S. was going down the tubes. They really need things to turn for the better. My gut says boom times in the U.S.

Ray Dalio did a write up on the Trump tax cuts on LinkedIn. I just quickly skimmed it.

Venezuela’s Maduro should just resign. He can’t come to grips with his own incompetency. Thankfully, we can vote out J & B but are Canadians that dumb? The housing markets bespeak bad portents.

GuyInVan, when the housing market crashes so will Vancouver’s economy. Eat that.

#43 mathman on 12.05.17 at 8:29 pm

The underlying sad story here is man of the boomers who are giving their kids (I call them kids even thought they are in their 30’s) large downpayments and impacting their own retirements and or borrowing against their own previously paid off home.

How these kids sleep at night is beyond me. I’ve become especially adept at spotting this in my west end 416 hood. I simply ask what folks do for a living, ask some questions carry the two and call BS. Most if not all have been given the GTA LAYUP from their parents into a home they have no business owning.

They also say they bought the home – that is my favorite line. Nobody buys a home, they go to the bank and become debt slaves.

True story – my sister broke up with her longtime partner once she found out the truth that his parents bought his place and that in his mid thirties he was still on the payroll – he was the classic 30k Millionaire, big hat no cattle. Glad she figured it out before it was too late.

Math

#44 Eco Capitalist on 12.05.17 at 8:32 pm

“It’s fresh, Joe. Never happened before that so many adults lived with their parents, or so much cash was sucked of family finances to gift to the spawn. This is a new age, indeed”

Careful Mr. Turner, that’s dangerously close to admitting it’s different this time. ;-)

#45 Kelsey on 12.05.17 at 8:42 pm

It will be curious to see what the Boomers do if housing prices go south in a serious way. Always hearing how “it’s a home and paid for so price doesn’t matter”, but I don’t buy it for the ones that don’t have fat government pensions or bloated RRSPs. I think overpriced housing is the retirement plan for a lot of people and anything more than a hiccup might send them all heading for the exits at the same time.

#46 LivinLarge on 12.05.17 at 8:45 pm

“Never happened before that so many adults lived with their parents, or so much cash was sucked of family finances to gift to the spawn.”…while this makes great reading, it is actually totally incorrect as well.

Historically, it has only been since about 1950 or 55 that living at home until married and even some time after being married has not been the norm and depending upon your ethnic history the change has only come much more recently. Also, before the advent of significant pensions and significant inflation, the elderly never expected to live in retirement or nursing fascilities in their final years. They lived with their children until hospitalized near the end of their lives. They provided child care etc when needed but they lived with the children that they suported as they grew up.

So, this idea that mom and dad didn’t normally provide initial deposit assistance in the past is simply factually incorrect. Only with systems like mortgage insurance in place was the first time buyer even able to enter the home ladder without significant financial assistance from parents. Hell, that was one of the primary purposes of doweries decades ago.

I’m not saying I think that we should or even could revert to such a sociologic system, just that it has only been durring my lifetime that things have changed to what we have now, where the vast majority of children leave home after 16 and a job and rent an apartment.

#47 Tony Brewer on 12.05.17 at 8:46 pm

House prices are plummeting in the Vancouver burbs. For example, take a look at this extremely blah house, at 1541 Eagle Mountain Drive, Coquitlam. It was recently listed for $1,299,800:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:S22RQJ1AkDQJ:raffiantepyan.com/mylistings.html/details-68451353+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

And now it is listed for $888,888 (I wonder what nationality of buyer they are trying to attract?!?):

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:S22RQJ1AkDQJ:raffiantepyan.com/mylistings.html/details-68451353+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

That is a 32% price decline!!!

#48 Rexx Rock on 12.05.17 at 8:50 pm

#24 Cabo is a death zone now.Lots of murders and drug wars in that area.Check out Mexicodailynews.com.Hope you wearing a bulletproof vest while you are at the beach.Puerto Vallarta is much safer and even has a Costco.

#49 Bottoms_Up on 12.05.17 at 8:51 pm

The consumer economy is going to take a hit. People’s homes will no longer be bank machines printing free money. No more free family vacations. No more free daycare. People will actually have to start budgetting and truly living within their means.

#50 People are Strange on 12.05.17 at 8:53 pm

#37 SmarterSquirrel

If you have condo, there’s only so much stuff you can buy. You can’t have a man cave or a large collection of tools. You can’t have that theatre room or that big deck for parties. That’s the future. At least they’ll save money on ‘stuff’. Lol

#51 acdel on 12.05.17 at 9:01 pm

#37 SmarterSquirrel

You’re right; there was a ten year period where nobody knew what the heck was happening; if you bought, good on you, you did well, yes I am envious, but please be careful of the future; things are changing quickly which will hurt many! Be smart about it; Garth and others have given so much free advice.

#52 young & foolish on 12.05.17 at 9:05 pm

Today’s MSM news … a parade of media and government figures getting fired for allegedly pinching behinds 20 years ago or tripping over themselves apologising for inappropriate comments. Fake news for all.

A real theatre of the absurd.

#53 WileE Toronto on 12.05.17 at 9:06 pm

#43 Mathman

So your sister left her longtime partner because he got a free house and free lunch money “payroll” and you think she wised up in time? Big hat no cattle?

Georgia Satellites have a lyric about “free milk and a cow”, you should look up sometime , and rethink your math advice.

#54 acdel on 12.05.17 at 9:14 pm

M37AB

You mentioned that you are having a hard time hiring people; ok, where is your location? What type of position are you hiring for? What do you do?

My question is to why did you not post this as opposed to belittling the post you replied to? People like you make me sick; post up or shut up! You’re Full of sh#T!

#55 akashic record on 12.05.17 at 9:34 pm

BTC USD12K

#56 dr. talc on 12.05.17 at 9:38 pm

#53 WileE Toronto on 12.05.17 at 9:06 pm
#43 Mathman

So your sister left her longtime partner because he got a free house and free lunch money “payroll” and you think she wised up in time? Big hat no cattle?

Georgia Satellites have a lyric about “free milk and a cow”, you should look up sometime , and rethink your math advice.

in mathman’s mind, people with supportive parents dont ‘deserve’ houses.

#57 paul on 12.05.17 at 9:45 pm

47 Tony Brewer on 12.05.17 at 8:46 pm

House prices are plummeting in the Vancouver burbs. For example, take a look at this extremely blah house, at 1541 Eagle Mountain Drive, Coquitlam. It was recently listed for $1,299,800:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:S22RQJ1AkDQJ:raffiantepyan.com/mylistings.html/details-68451353+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

And now it is listed for $888,888 (I wonder what nationality of buyer they are trying to attract?!?):

That is a 32% price decline!!!
—————————————————————–
It’s a 32 % list price decline!!! Do you know the difference????

#58 5Inatrailer on 12.05.17 at 9:50 pm

Can’t believe I’m seeing this here in Alberta.
This house listed on mls for 1.2m
Now available to rent on kijiji for 3200. Incredible. A mortgage on this property would be over 5k/mo.

I never thought I’d see this if I didn’t see it with my own eyes. Still too expensive for 5 in a trailer tho!

#59 Karma on 12.05.17 at 9:59 pm

#18 Dolce Vita on 12.05.17 at 6:41 pm
“Boomers are nuts. I cannot for the life me understand where the cash is coming from?

Half of them have, or will have, no other pension other than that from Canada Gov and have 1 years worth of savings.

Look at income distribution by age from StatsCan and the vast majority are in the 1st and 2nd income brackets.

Money has to be in the equity of homes which they must be borrowing against.

With rates rising it will get ugly for the Bank of Mom & Dad, financial suicide if you ask me, especially upon retirement.”
———————————
I saw a presentation by Rennie’s analytical team. They had a slide on the % of homeowners by age that had no mortgage in Metro Vancouver. I was shocked to see that 17% of people aged 75 and over still had mortgages!

That’s 1 in 6! It’s higher or those between 65-74 years-old. Should be interesting to see how they cope in a rising rate environment.

#60 AGuyInVancouver on 12.05.17 at 10:14 pm

54 accelerator
Petulant overreaction much?

#61 PastThePeak on 12.05.17 at 10:19 pm

I don’t understand all the Millennial bashing at times. If you want to blame a generation (which isn’t recommended but seems to be what many want to do) then I would think the Boomers are as complicit as any
– the generation which shifted Can politics to the left
– voted for governments which vastly increased government debt
– started the parenting style where everyone is a winner and gets a trophy
– they are the parents of the Mills
– they are the ones which have spent beyond their means and have saved little (see articles from today)

#62 young & foolish on 12.05.17 at 10:20 pm

…. meanwhile …. bitcoin breaches 12K on it’s way to 20 … this “bubble” has legs!

#63 Capt. Serious on 12.05.17 at 10:25 pm

#50 People are Strange on 12.05.17 at 8:53 pm
#37 SmarterSquirrel

If you have condo, there’s only so much stuff you can buy.
Actually storage is a big growth area because people in fact rent more space for their stuff rather than live within their confines.

#64 For those about to flop... on 12.05.17 at 10:33 pm

Recent Sale Report.

This one just went,most likely to a developer.

Asking 2.250

Sold for 2.415

Tax assessment 2.682

Seemingly only on market for 5 days.

To keep the Bon Jovi theme going on this blog ,this house going down in a Blaze of Glory…

M43BC

https://www.remax.ca/bc/vancouver-real-estate/na-2167-w-46th-avenue-na-wp_id193609427-lst/

#65 Trojan House on 12.05.17 at 10:37 pm

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/royal-bank-of-canada-in-g-sib-2017-list-jpmorgan-most-risky-cm881494

#66 the ryguy on 12.05.17 at 10:39 pm

#48 Rexx Rock on 12.05.17 at 8:50 pm

theres a costco in Cabo too, but point taken. I did PV last year, loved it there as well.

#67 MarcFromOttawa on 12.05.17 at 10:46 pm

SHA-256 is NSA technology. All part of the plan for a NWO.

#68 For those about to flop... on 12.05.17 at 10:50 pm

Paul 45 pm
47 Tony Brewer on 12.05.17 at 8:46 pm

House prices are plummeting in the Vancouver burbs. For example, take a look at this extremely blah house, at 1541 Eagle Mountain Drive, Coquitlam. It was recently listed for $1,299,800:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:S22RQJ1AkDQJ:raffiantepyan.com/mylistings.html/details-68451353+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

And now it is listed for $888,888 (I wonder what nationality of buyer they are trying to attract?!?):

That is a 32% price decline!!!
—————————————————————–
It’s a 32 % list price decline!!! Do you know the difference????

////////////////////////

Paul , make yourself useful and tell me how much this house sold for…

M43BC

Sold on November 15

1791 Ralph st,North Vancouver paid 1.52 ass 1.55

Jul 25:$1,689,000
Nov 6: $1,499,900
Change: – 189100.00 -11%

https://www.bcassessment.ca/Property/Info/QTAwMDAyOEVDWQ==

https://www.zolo.ca/north-vancouver-real-estate/1791-ralph-street

#69 YVR on 12.05.17 at 10:53 pm

#47 Tony Brewer on 12.05.17 at 8:46 pm
House prices are plummeting in the Vancouver burbs. For example, take a look at this extremely blah house, at 1541 Eagle Mountain Drive, Coquitlam. It was recently listed for $1,299,800:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:S22RQJ1AkDQJ:raffiantepyan.com/mylistings.html/details-68451353+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

And now it is listed for $888,888 (I wonder what nationality of buyer they are trying to attract?!?):

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:S22RQJ1AkDQJ:raffiantepyan.com/mylistings.html/details-68451353+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

That is a 32% price decline!!!

———–

House sold, probably over original asking. The difference? Paid overseas. Everyone wins: Buyer doesnt have to smuggle money out of another country and Seller doesn’t have to pay Cap gains. Proceeds obtained overseas can be deposited in a swiss bak away from the taxman.

#70 For those about to flop... on 12.05.17 at 10:53 pm

Old Ron the realtor is busting to tell me how much this one went for…

M43BC

Sold on 7th November

9844 Ashwood Drive, Richmond paid . 1.38 asking 1.29

Nov 16:$1,398,000
Jun 13: $1,368,000
Change: – 30000.00 -2%

https://www.zolo.ca/richmond-real-estate/9844-ashwood-drive

https://www.bcassessment.ca/Property/Info/QTAwMDA1V1VITg==

#71 For those about to flop... on 12.05.17 at 10:56 pm

I’m sure Nancy Vieira PREC can’t wait to tell me what this house sold for…

M43BC

1725 MARINE DR SW,Vancouver. Paid 2.25 ass 2.33 sold on November 13

Jul 25:$2,590,000
Nov 10: $2,490,000
Change: – 100000.00 -4%

https://www.bcassessment.ca/Property/Info/QTAwMDAwMFRZSw==

https://www.zolo.ca/vancouver-real-estate/1725-sw-marine-drive

https://evaluebc.bcassessment.ca/Property.aspx?_oa=QTAwMDAwMFRZSw==

#72 Robert B on 12.05.17 at 10:58 pm

#22 Bob Doug …..Given that a very good coder can produce around 100 lines of code per day

————————————————————

That is is one slow coder considering he or they are geniuses…Theory is shot down….

#73 Lisa on 12.05.17 at 11:01 pm

Dogs!
I need your help!
Does anyone know which one of Garth’s 2000+ blog entries I can recommend to a friend who is desperate to buy a house NOW?
I showed him the one with Evan the eunuch from a few days ago but it wasn’t detailed enough.
Any recommendations would be great! Thanks!
(Hopefully the quality of posters on here tonight is a bit higher than last night…yikes! I think I read, maybe, ten intelligent posts.)

#74 For those about to flop... on 12.05.17 at 11:02 pm

Devils Advocate,batter up.

You guys care so much, show us…

M43BC

Sold on November 10th

412 ST. JAMES RD W NORTH VANCOUVER paid 1.81 ass 2 asking 2.19

https://www.zolo.ca/north-vancouver-real-estate/412-w-st-james-road

https://www.zolo.ca/index.php?sarea=412%20W%20St%20James%20Road,%20North%20Vancouver&filter=1

https://www.bcassessment.ca/Property/Info/QTAwMDAyODg5OQ==

#75 For those about to flop... on 12.05.17 at 11:07 pm

What happened with this one?

Trying not to call out anyone that has helped me in the past.

If it’s not that big a deal ,let’s have the details…

M43BC

Sold on November 8th
505 Rupert St. Vancouver paid 1.05 asking 1.08

https://www.zolo.ca/vancouver-real-estate/505-rupert-street

https://www.bcassessment.ca/Property/Info/QTAwMDAwMlA4Wg==

#76 Parallax on 12.05.17 at 11:09 pm

I think the question on passing down $ to kids is very common in Asian (not just Chinese culture). Forget $250k – it’s not uncommon for parents go give close to 89-90% of their net worth to their kids either in outright cash form or in further education/tutoring costs/fully paid apartment without a second thought.

I would say that Western mentality has started to converge with those in Asia over the past decade, especially in terms of the time/money/effort/education investments needed for child-raising and in preparation for their futures.

#77 For those about to flop... on 12.05.17 at 11:10 pm

I remember when I first posted this one that someone replied to me and was interested in what happened.

Go on tell them the information they want in a timely manner…

M43BC

5161 Trafalgar st,Vancouver.

Purchased for 2.8 million on 21st October 2015.

Asking 3.33

Sold on November 14th 2017 for ???

https://www.bcassessment.ca/Property/Info/QTAwMDAwMFBEWg==

#78 N on 12.05.17 at 11:14 pm

This does not appear to be good news….
About 8.1% of Mortgages at Laurentian appear to be suspect.

While the price tag of the loans Laurentian’s audit of itself has already found is $89 million, more problematic loans could yet be uncovered, Laurentian warned. That’s because the bank said it conducted a “limited sample file audit” of $1.1 billion more worth of loans originated in its branch network, and found similar instances of documentation issues.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/laurentian-bank-mortgages-1.4433982

#79 acdel on 12.05.17 at 11:34 pm

#61 PastThePeak

So, what did you learn from the Boomers mistakes? I am asking as a Gen-X’er, I know what I have learned, no free rides, get your ass kicked numerous times in many ways, physically mostly, move on, fail.

Or whine like (not all) the current generation. You have no fricken idea; or maybe you do, if so, good on you, if not, give me a fricken break!!! Ask the veterans what they went through..

#80 HeyItsMeAgain on 12.05.17 at 11:47 pm

People in Canada. You are being fleeced.

Get smart, move in with your parents forever and take care of them. Mow their lawn then take your dog out on it. And whip them if they try to use pesticides that they were brainwashed into using way back in the day when that was the way to kill weeds. Your dog will thank you.

Why have your own place, pay your own taxes, etc., etc. Just so you can spend more money in gas to drive over to your parents place everyday who need help?

Enact sweat equity by building a suite in their place. Don’t report it so the tax assessment stays low. Try and convince them to hand over title. Then you can avoid all of that probate BS that Garth posted about a few days back (you might take a hit without the seniors discount – but weigh the cost benefit). Only show your hand once you have to list, where you can inflate the price (because it has a suite already built) for those who need the rental income leverage..win-win.

But until that time, just save the extra money that would otherwise go to paying taxes, condo fees, levies, etc.

#81 Millenials do not understand Satoshi on 12.05.17 at 11:56 pm

“You need somebody around to tell you what a Satoshi is.” Sorry Garth, but millenials do not understand one iota about what “Satoshi” came up with. This, of course, is a general Millenial predicament: few of them have learned critical thinking and critical analysis, instead they just believe what their supposed peers are saying online based on a false belief in the nature of how trust percolates through social networks. Add to that attention deficit disorder caused by constant information overload, and you have a recipe for a millennial who buys Bitcoin. Only millenials who are smart, well-educated in hard sciences stay away from it, it appears; with the exception of those who have decided for a life of digital scamming to abuse their naïve peers, by engaging in massive fake transactions among themselves on unregulated online exchanges. In short, any Bitcoin-buying millennial needs to be kicked out of the basement and learn about real life.

#82 Karma on 12.06.17 at 12:10 am

Good charts for the Canadian economy.

http://www.macleans.ca/economy/economicanalysis/the-most-important-economic-charts-to-watch-in-2018/

#83 Ponzius Pilatus on 12.06.17 at 12:14 am

#139 Kelsey on 12.05.17 at 3:19 pm
#128 Daniel – I agree. This first struck me a few months back when we were joined at dinner by someone who was by all intents and purposes a blue pill socialist, but without any prompting he brought up Bitcoin and wondered why it can’t be money if digital US dollars are also money. The key is that it made him question fiat currency which otherwise never would have happened. This seems to be happening at an accelerating pace. About a year ago every conversation quickly devolved to Real Estate, now you can’t go a few hours without someone mentioning Bitcoin.
————–
Remember how we gathered around the water coolers talking about BreX.
Did not end well, did it.

#84 Smoking Man on 12.06.17 at 12:20 am

Death spiral on Canadian Real Estate. Should have got out on the dead cat bounce in Sept Oct.

BOC definatly going to spike rates with the last Jobs report..

I’ll be watching the carnage safety of California. Meeting the production company on Friday hopefully make a deal to put the Deplorables on the big screen.

Dream big dogs and do what you live. It’s going to happen or it’s not altleased you tried.

Dr Smoking Man
PhD Herdonomics

#85 When Will They Raise Rates? on 12.06.17 at 1:02 am

@ #24 the ryguy on 12.05.17 at 7:16 pm

Been living down In cabo for about a month now..big old FU to the winters in Canada, specifically Edmonton.

Anyway, little anecdote Ive picked up on down here. Met a ton of locals that are absolutely flummoxed as to how slow it is. They tell me this place is normally absolutely packed with Canadians, and this year its beyond dead.

I leased a condo for 6 months in a complex with probably 30 or so units. They tell me in years past its usually full capacity with Canucks. Right now Id guess there are 12 units occupied, from the folks Ive talked to, 6 of them are occupied by Canadians including myself.

Has everyone stopped dipping into their HELOCs? Whats going on up north? Are people starting to get worried? Hmmm, I wonder.

——————–

I was in Dominican last week, similar experience…

The resort we were at gave all of us on the Air Canada flight a free upgrade to the most expensive package they offered (would have cost us an extra $2 – $3 Gs). The Air Transat vacationers who arrived the same day were not as fortunate, only got a modest free upgrade lol. Bottom line, that resort was handing out freebies because there simply wasn’t the same volume of Canadian travelers and they were way under capacity as a result. We’re talking about a 5 star that is usually full…

Yup, I would venture a guess that most Canafians are either clamping down voluntarily, or more likely, the banks are tightening up on the Helocs. Lol

And Garth, shorting Bitcoin??? Have you lost your goddamn mind? LOL

Over a third of millenials would rather own Bitcoin than stocks!

Shorts are gonna get smoked! LMFAO!!!

#86 Boots on the Ground in Ptown on 12.06.17 at 1:53 am

#12 Mark etc
———————————————————
Anecdotally: a relative of mine running smal constr. business here in US, currently has projects on the line to the tune of 700k and can’t secure a LOC of 15k. Hes been running biz for 4 years, is a US PR with very little credit history since he’s only been in US short time. Granted the lack of history is biggest factor for difficulty finding working capital, that and I’d bet he hasnt shopped around. But still, banker told him “regs are so tight still and they’re hoping this administration can do something about that”

Sticking it to us small biz owners here too, like up north, its just US style, which is along the lines of “you cant run with the big dogs if you pee like a puppy.”

So…who knows. Anybody’s guess where all this goes from here. Up up and away in US like you mention? or entangled in gridlock and he said she said..?

Regulations, administrations and Fed policy are all murky and involved subjects themselves and I have mixed opins on knee jerk “too tight” regs in response to the engineered crash of 08 that the Fed “couldnt see coming” for its own nose. In the same breath, “AmMnuichin” was one of the biggest profiteers in that escapade of MBS so the fox guarding the hen house now doesn’t instill confidence that any changes made up top are for the financial bettering for us peons, whether its this tax change stuff or banking reg changes

F34Wa

#87 BillyBob on 12.06.17 at 2:10 am

#54 acdel on 12.05.17 at 9:14 pm
M37AB

You mentioned that you are having a hard time hiring people; ok, where is your location? What type of position are you hiring for? What do you do?

My question is to why did you not post this as opposed to belittling the post you replied to? People like you make me sick; post up or shut up! You’re Full of sh#T!

==================================

Whoops, time to adjust the meds.

Don’t worry, you’ll probably find a job. Maybe try and hide your anger issues though. Sometimes makes interviewers nervous.

#88 Myra Andrews on 12.06.17 at 2:31 am

Sales volume down in Vancouver especially for detached homes.

http://vancitycondoguide.com/dollars-spent-vancouver-real-estate/

#89 SoggyShorts on 12.06.17 at 3:26 am

#54 acdel on 12.05.17 at 9:14 pm
M37AB

You mentioned that you are having a hard time hiring people; ok, where is your location? What type of position are you hiring for? What do you do?
***********************************
I’m not sure I can actually use Garth’s blog as as my own personal hiring ad, so I’ll have to keep it vague:

Look into surveying jobs. Most companies pay about $18/h for total newbies, hiring in the spring every year.
The big companies(there’s only 1 in each big AB city)
hire 20-30 each year, and have huge retention problems, because no one likes working all day in the summer.

It’s 10-12h days in the summer, 3-6h once the snow hits, or a seasonal lay-off (usually up to the employee)

Get 5 years experience doing that (about a $1-2 raise per year) Then work for a private survey company for a nice bump up to 60-80K…Just not for my company unless your attitude improves drastically.

#90 SoggyShorts on 12.06.17 at 3:37 am

#54 acdel on 12.05.17 at 9:14 pm
BTW, it’s your second paragraph that turns me off from hiring millennials… Why would you add that? If you actually are looking to get a good job, why would you crap all over someone who says they have jobs available?
I’ve hired people with no experience before, and would again, but I can’t even find a millen with a half decent attitude or work ethic.

#91 Dolce Vita on 12.06.17 at 3:59 am

#59 Karma

Son of a gun.

I suspected (from the numbers you read at CRA, CMHC, Bank of Canada, doomer marketing studies etc.) BUT not that bad.

Man oh man. Rates, like Garth has been saying all along, will injure the finances of many.

#92 Dolce Vita on 12.06.17 at 4:13 am

#43 mathman

Good informal study of:

Extend & Pretend.

You should write down how many you talk to and their responses to get to that “magical” >= 35 sample size for Normal Distribution math.

I think it would be an interesting read (i.e., keep doing what you’re doing and let us know the results when you have enough “respondents”).

I read Scott Terrio on Twitter, when he isn’t posting about his personal likes, and you get a lot of stories about what you talk about and after “big hat, no cattle” has gone South (good one, as was “carry the two”).

Who knew, a Math Man with a sense humour – now there’s something you don’t read all that often, if at all.

#93 Dolce Vita on 12.06.17 at 4:39 am

Uh oh.

Laurentian Bank audit of their B2B Bank unit finds $89 million in mortgages with “identified documentation issues and client misrepresentations” sold previously to a 3rd party will be repurchased and $91 million were “inadvertently sold”.

How do you “inadvertently” sell $91 million worth of paper, as in accidentally, without intention? At some point yesterday, their shares down almost 8%.

It’s all coming out in the wash now as rates are increasing, sales volumes (prices) dropping…people beginning to question the ability of mortgage holders to pay; hence, the affecting the underlying value of the assets.

To quote Scott Terrio:

“All of this stuff emerging about mortgage fraud and misrepresentations dovetails perfectly with so much that I’ve seen in insolvency work. There is a broad culture of inappropriate credit approval in Canada, folks. You’ve read some of my stories.”

Why I still think we are beginning to witness the largest RE asset devaluation in Cdn. history and it seems to happening for SO MANY different reasons as of late.

NOT your favorite source Garth, still, an interesting read:

https://www.bnn.ca/laurentian-bank-finds-flawed-mortgage-data-in-audit-1.935301

#94 Howard on 12.06.17 at 4:51 am

#35 KAC on 12.05.17 at 7:55 pm

I wonder how many young people who are hoping to see older people financially ruined are also hoping to inherit a home and other assets from their parents?

It will be interesting to hear their whining if the greatest ever inter-generational transfer of wealth doesn’t happen.

———————————————

I think many Millennials, the ones who pay attention, fully expect the Boomers to spend all their dosh and die with nothing left, well into their 90s and beyond. There will be no great inter-generational transfer of wealth. The Boomers got it all, and will spend every last nickel.

#95 under the radar on 12.06.17 at 6:03 am

“So the actual loss of a one-year hold would be higher by an other $107,000.”
There are very few speculators in YYZ right now in single family homes buying and selling in a year. Prices are still too high and the momentum is not there. Agreed, there is still excess in the new condo market , but those closings are years away and if they cant make a profit on the unit transfer date, they rent it out.

#96 maxx on 12.06.17 at 6:15 am

#8 Howard on 12.05.17 at 6:25 pm

“Boy Wonder totally bombs in China.”

It struck me that the T2 gang were so outgunned at the table – über smiley and anything to please, über “diplomatic” Canucks vs. a wall of wizened, determined, far more experienced and really, no, really smart Chinese delegates.

Fuggedaboudit.

Saddest chess game I’ve ever seen.

#97 maxx on 12.06.17 at 6:42 am

#11 akashic record on 12.05.17 at 6:34 pm

“#6 surprise hike? on 12.05.17 at 6:04 pm

much chatter about a surprise move by Poloz tomorrow.. early Christmas present?

Out of curiosity, how much would be your personal monetary gain if he did?

How much gain would you actually be able to keep, considering increased taxes that would certainly follow in order to finance the higher cost of public debt?

Are you really certain, that any gain from higher interest rate will be passed on to you personally?”

More than you realize. Rate hikes would most certainly benefit savers and/or the wealthy and the idiots who chronically overspend would be forced to reconsider their buying habits.

Those who know how to make wealth always find ways to mitigate tax increases and fiscal losers snivel, bray and complain incessantly that higher rates are nothing but destructive, bad for business, blah, blah, blah, zzzzzzzzzzzz…..

Rate hikes will restore our economy to robust health as well as boost the CAD. As I’ve said numerous times, viable people and business always, always find ways to survive and thrive. The rest is chaff and gets gobbled or goes belly up. Too bad, so sad.

Those with actual money ought to spend and those without are in for a badly needed reality check, because sooner or later, these financial morons won’t even be able to dream of paying their taxes because the window of borrowing capability is in the process of slamming shut.

And how will that benefit you personally?

I guarantee it won’t. That negative tax nut will land on your plate with a thud.

Question is, will Poloz et al. manage to save us from circling the economic toilet bowl before it’s too late?

#98 Dharma Bum on 12.06.17 at 7:08 am

#49 Bottoms Up

People will actually have to start budgeting and truly living within their means.
——————————————————————–
“There is no dignity quite so impressive, and no one independence quite so important, as living within your means.” – Calvin Coolidge

For most media and advertising brainwashed people of our era, it’s a lot easier said than done.

Each time we succumb to our frivolous desires, we add another layer to the barrier that prevents us from living the life of our dreams.

As long as we’re in debt, living month to month, struggling pay cheque to pay cheque, we’ll be stuck in crappy jobs that we hate, because we can’t survive even one day without the lousy salary.

Life is not about acquiring more stuff. It’s about freedom.

#99 Victor V on 12.06.17 at 7:15 am

Borrowers might dodge a rate hike today, but brace yourself for three, or more, next year

http://business.financialpost.com/news/economy/bank-of-canada-set-to-end-year-on-pause-after-two-summer-hikes

#100 Rate Maniac on 12.06.17 at 7:31 am

Poloz will not raise rates. He needs to but he can’t.

1) He is not intelligent
2) If he raises rates, Canada is doomed. Everything depends on housing and related industries.

CAD is a worthless currency and will just continue to rot.

Soon the govt will put out ads like they used to have for war bonds back in the 40s, “Do your part to help Canada, buy a house!!”

#101 Howard on 12.06.17 at 7:47 am

#96 maxx on 12.06.17 at 6:15 am

#8 Howard on 12.05.17 at 6:25 pm

“Boy Wonder totally bombs in China.”

It struck me that the T2 gang were so outgunned at the table – über smiley and anything to please, über “diplomatic” Canucks vs. a wall of wizened, determined, far more experienced and really, no, really smart Chinese delegates.

Fuggedaboudit.

Saddest chess game I’ve ever seen.

——————————————

Surprisingly, in a country where parents frequently murder their own baby girls, officials were unswayed by Trudeau’s blatherings about gender.

#102 NoName on 12.06.17 at 7:52 am

#96 maxx on 12.06.17 at 6:15 am
#8 Howard on 12.05.17 at 6:25 pm

“Boy Wonder totally bombs in China.”

It struck me that the T2 gang were so outgunned at the table – über smiley and anything to please, über “diplomatic” Canucks vs. a wall of wizened, determined, far more experienced and really, no, really smart Chinese delegates.

Fuggedaboudit.

Saddest chess game I’ve ever seen.

—-

so then, here is funnies chess game for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f64qJorLrY

#103 John of Grant on 12.06.17 at 8:03 am

#12 Mark
Recently, even though the BoC policy target rate is now 1%, such effective inter-bank rate has collapsed to 0.75% and is trending even lower.

——————————————

Really? Links? Data? Methodology? Try this link.
Looks like trading between banks is pretty much locked within 2 basis points of 1%.

https://www.oanda.com/forex-trading/analysis/economic-indicators/canada/rates/overnight-money-market-financing-rate

#104 Rational Optimist on 12.06.17 at 8:05 am

22 Bob Dog on 12.05.17 at 6:58 pm

Thank you. I was afraid to bing it, thinking it could be something unsavoury…

This is odd, as I specifically asked someone last week if one could buy fractions of bitcoins, and he told me ‘no.’ He ought to know, as he said he was waiting for some Canada Savings Bonds to come due (yup) to get in to the market. I can’t wait to tell him that he can indeed buy fractions of bitcoin- he’ll be so excited!

#105 Vive les mamas on 12.06.17 at 8:13 am

“Did mama tell you there’d be years like this?”

Yes, but most don’t listen.

#106 Andrewt on 12.06.17 at 8:19 am

In case anyone’s late to the party.
HouseSigma and MongoHouse have Toronto sales info up online now. Have at it.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/business/court-ruling-house-sales-data-1.4434251

#107 crowdedelevatorfartz on 12.06.17 at 8:24 am

Apparently what old is “new” again……

Used Australian C-18 Jets for the Canuck airforce

https://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCAKBN1DZ2W2-OCATP

Which begs the question?
After 15 years and several billion dollars…..have those used Submarines sailed? Floated? Sunk?

#108 crowdedelevatorfartz on 12.06.17 at 8:30 am

@#73 Lisa
“Hopefully the quality of posters on here tonight is a bit higher than last night…yikes! I think I read, maybe, ten intelligent posts.”
+++++

Thank you very much for the compliment but I only posted 9 times…..was Smoking Man the 10th?

#109 David W2 on 12.06.17 at 8:42 am

Garth, is this housing overvaluation thing only a tale of two places, GTA and Vancouver or will others be collateral damage? I’m sure others are just as confused as to whether the balanced approach to home ownership is wise in other markets if the next 2-3 yrs could suck away any equity one builds in a new purchase.

#110 Steven Rowlandson on 12.06.17 at 8:42 am

Real estate prices would have to get to near zero cents on the dollar before any wage earner could afford a place to live in Toronto. Speaking of financial outrages Bitcoin hit high of over 12,800 USD this morning. http://markets.businessinsider.com/currencies/BTC-USD

#111 HaHaHa on 12.06.17 at 8:50 am

#24 ryguy….thanks for the report from Mexico. All I can say is yippee I hope you are right. Mexico is great minus the self entitled Canadians anyway. Really looking forward to January now

#112 Dolce Vita on 12.06.17 at 9:37 am

#24 the ryguy
#85 When Will They Raise Rates?

First sign of trouble is when the “extend & pretend” crowd begin to cut discretionary spending such as vacations.

The charge it up, have fun with other peoples money, anything to save face…looks like those days are coming to an end OR have been forced to end for many.

Reading this Blog over the past few months I conclude that the Millennials are about to get their lesson in RE speculation, greed, it is different this time, and you name it.

What I cannot believe is that their fool Boomer parents, that should know better, are funding them and ultimately they will pay the price along with their extend & pretend, bravado, reckless, children.

I have posted that it will be bad for all and BEST it not happen…the largest RE asset devaluation in Cdn. history.

For the FIRST time I say, let it CRASH, so that a lesson of prudence in financial matters and patient investing over time is in vogue again vs. RE get rich quick schemes…Canada will be better for it especially when these bad economic players are either bankrupt or financially crippled and taken out of the economy for a decade or more.

#113 saskatoon on 12.06.17 at 9:43 am

the answer is simple:

boomers are largely sociopaths.

#114 Dolce Vita on 12.06.17 at 9:47 am

#24 the ryguy
#85 When Will They Raise Rates?

Forgot to mention that I noticed the same thing here in Italia this Summer, where I reside [ex-pat retired Cdn.].

We can tell you are N. American in how you dress [and act].

The loud N. Americans that you can hear coming from a block away or more are the Americans.

The quiet N. Americans, that apologize for everything, are the Canadians.

I travel the EU and Italia extensively. A very noticeable absence of quiet N. Americans vs. the prior 2 years in Italia and the EU – VERY NOTICEABLE.

Why I took great interest in what you both wrote – similar experience here.

Good to read I am not the only one that has noticed a significant drop in Canadians cutting on travel.

#115 Dolce Vita: to Flop on 12.06.17 at 10:03 am

FLOP…

you are just a MACHINE today.

Keep it coming, I greatly appreciate the work you do informing us of what is happening in YVR RE.

It would be nice to read that others here, that can help you out with information, do so.

Take care, as usual.

#116 Dolce Vita: to Flop on 12.06.17 at 10:04 am

#113 saskatoon

ROTFLMAO.

So Zen.

#117 Dolce Vita on 12.06.17 at 10:11 am

Too many posts today from me Garth, but I have tell you:

Your’s is the Best Blog on Planet Earth, period.

And many of the Commenters here, totally rock.

Ya, #113 saskatoon, I’m one of those largely sociopathic boomers… ;-)

#118 IHCTD9 on 12.06.17 at 10:12 am

Some days when I make the mistake of reading the news and updating myself on what our cementhead goofball PM is up to, I feel compelled to go over, once again; all the ways I am not financially supporting the dingbat Liberal birdbrains in Ottawa.

Neil Macdonald pointed out on the CBC that over half the cost of alcohol in Ontario is Tax, even worse for smokes. I guess I’m saving taxes huge, don’t drink anything from the “Beer Store” or LCBO, don’t smoke, don’t use pot, or gamble.

I got 5 figures worth of income tax back last year, same will happen again for this year.

Come June of 2018, I will not be fuelling my daily driver, with a taxed fuel.

Come Oct of 2018, I will no longer be heating my digs with a taxed fuel.

I avoid retail spending like the black death, Kijiji can supply just about any expensive item in like new condition that I could ever want for less money and zero tax.

I smile as the local FNR keeps expanding its businesses and tax free products to service the regional non-natives, knowing that our weak kneed PC leadership is powerless to do a damn thing about it.

I fix the car, I fix the house, I fix the mower, I trim the trees, I build the decks etc… Kids are old enough to help with real work now too. No taxes paid on services not rendered.

I used to take 2-3 tandem axle trailer loads of construction, property and shop garbage out every year for 25.00/load. When that place closed, I went to the new dump (only one I can go to), and it was over 300.00 for ONE load. I’ve built a smokeless down draft incinerator and I now burn it all to ash – saving me ~1000.00+ per year. I am also going to build a charcoal fuelled kiln to turn anything left in the incinerator that won’t burn into glass, slag, and clinker – which will then go into the household garbage.

All of this is effectively legal too. IMHO – everyone should start thinking about ways they can cut their tax load.

#119 Ronaldo on 12.06.17 at 10:20 am

Listen to this BS. Tulips. The herd is being led to slaughter.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-soon-new-gold-says-jp-morgan-115830504.html

#120 Ole Doberman on 12.06.17 at 10:34 am

#62 young & foolish on 12.05.17 at 10:20 pm

…. meanwhile …. bitcoin breaches 12K on it’s way to 20 … this “bubble” has legs!
———————————————————-
Harvest your gains while you can – Doberman

#121 Ben on 12.06.17 at 10:46 am

IHCTD9 – sounds like a man after my own heart. Kijiji rules. I also spend very little though I do have wine now and again, but nothing hugely expensive.

Regarding your tax rebate – how are you getting this much back?

#122 the ryguy on 12.06.17 at 10:59 am

#112 Dolce Vita on 12.06.17 at 9:37 am
————————————————-

Its pretty incredible the little insights you pick up on just chatting with people.

My neighbour here is in his 70s, great guy. He’s retired and he plays the market for fun & a little bit of side cash. He has a ton of little tricks, every morning so far on the patio he comes out with a cup of coffee and fills me in “just made a quick $85 on sunlife”. Anyway..he keeps grilling me for my opinions, so today he says “I read into everything we’ve been chatting about, I think you’re right, we (Canada) are f*cked”.

Two friends of mine from back home just left after staying with me for a week. Ones a realtor, the other a wealth manager for one of the big 5. Realtor closed a deal while here and seemed to really have no idea what was going on beyond the tip of her nose. Wealth manager agreed with my assessment that Canada is in trouble, whats scary though is her metrics and reasons were different than mine.

I say buckle up, these little clues are hidden in plain sight. But what do I know..apparently Canada pumped out 80k new jobs last quarter.

#123 Drama on 12.06.17 at 11:03 am

#88
“Sales volume down in Vancouver especially for detached homes.”

Beware! All graphs in that article have truncated Y Axes.
Made to look more dramatic than it is.
Bunch of drama queens if you ask me.

#124 Mattl on 12.06.17 at 11:05 am

Flop, for all the time you’ve spent here in your noble quest to prove that sometimes homes sell for less then list price -which I agree is a groundbreaking study – you could have gotten your RE liscence three times over and not had to beg Ron for his access.

And how do you reconcile all the data showing that YVR prices, particularly in the Valley, are way up. You do realize that a house here and a house there is not a study right? I could provide hundreds of listings where the seller made a ton of money, the house sold for above or below ask, etc. Some segments are up – lower end of the market. Some are down – luxury end of the market. All of this data is easily available. Sure it isn’t making the 5 oclock news – and why would it. There isn’t much interesting about someone losing 6 percent on a 4mm home. When guys start taking 30 percent baths over previous SALE price the news media will be covering the RE decline as leading story.

But all the data anyone needs to get a feel for the market is widely available. Not in real time, but directionally it is very easy to see where the market is going.

#125 HaHaHa on 12.06.17 at 11:31 am

Bitcoins a bubble. Only to those who did not prosper from it. Get over it. What a bunch of wusses? Big risk =big reward. Any dummy can buy safe assets and get 5%….Roboadvisor does that. Its gambling blah blah blah. Hello people the blog is greater fool. Just don’t get left holding the bag. Congrats to those who have made money. Like I said someone has been calling for a house bubble since 2008. Experts ya right

#126 joblo on 12.06.17 at 11:51 am

#118 IHCTD9 on 12.06.17 at 10:12 am
“All of this is effectively legal too. IMHO – everyone should start thinking about ways they can cut their tax load.”

Word!

Keep up the mantra, bought a thing at crappy tire and after reading your comment went to Kijiji and $20 less and no tax. Lesson learned.

Gotta starve the beast til it cuts its stupid spending!

#127 Stan Brooks on 12.06.17 at 12:22 pm

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/canada-good-place-foreign-investment-025147938.html

GUANGZHOU, China — The world is at a “pivot point” and will fail unless countries embrace free trade and elevate their citizens who have been left behind by globalization, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau warned Wednesday.

Trudeau delivered that dire, anti-protectionist message to a high-powered business audience at a major international conference in this bustling southern Chinese city of Guangzhou.

—————————–

I thought that free trade is the essence of globalization.

But it is apparently the opposite according to our leaders.

#128 IHCTD9 on 12.06.17 at 12:41 pm

#121 Ben on 12.06.17 at 10:46 am
IHCTD9 – sounds like a man after my own heart. Kijiji rules. I also spend very little though I do have wine now and again, but nothing hugely expensive.

Regarding your tax rebate – how are you getting this much back?
_______________________________________

Spending little is a great pursuit, keeps expenses low and keep taxation to a minimum to boot.

Re the tax return:

Wife has two jobs, one is contract and we can claim a bunch of stuff so we save every receipt.

We shovel a lot into RRSP’s

We pay two private school tuitions, there is a big deduction because of these.

Charitable donations are 5 figures too, so big deduction there too.

Wife and I both work and make near the same, our tax lady swaps the CD’s back and forth to maximize the return. It always works out that one of us takes all the CD’s and gets a huge return, the other gets much less – but overall the total is big.

We get asked to “prove it” every year by the CRA, but have never been disallowed, so whatever the tax lady is doing appears to be a-ok. I just go with whatever she proposes.

This will not carry on past 2018 as a few things will change and we’ll be down to 4 figures again. FWIW, our return has never been less than 6K for as long as I can remember, and I believe the CD’s and RRSP contributions mean the most to what we get back. It’s really just a limited time that I will get 5 figures, the future of avoiding taxes from here on out will be on consumption modification and minimization which I think is still legal…

#129 Ponzius Pilatus on 12.06.17 at 1:20 pm

#96 maxx on 12.06.17 at 6:15 am
#8 Howard on 12.05.17 at 6:25 pm

“Boy Wonder totally bombs in China.”

It struck me that the T2 gang were so outgunned at the table – über smiley and anything to please, über “diplomatic” Canucks vs. a wall of wizened, determined, far more experienced and really, no, really smart Chinese delegates.

Fuggedaboudit.

Saddest chess game I’ve ever seen.
——————–
Note to Selfie Boy:
Do not ever, ever critizise a Chinese in public.
The world is in for a big reckoning.
Especially Canada.
China overtaking the US next year.
How’s your Mandarin classes coming along.

#130 Dolce Vita on 12.06.17 at 1:36 pm

#122 the ryguy

Exactly:

“…whats scary though is her metrics and reasons were different than mine.”

Why I said in a post today:

“…it seems to [be] happening for SO MANY different reasons as of late.”

I look for these signs and reading this Blog by Commenters like you and others, the reasons are there and are starting to become legion.

Hopefully, Schumpeter’s Creative Destruction holds true in the aftermath.

Agreed, jobs is what is saving Canada thus far. My gut tells me that even though it is a statistically valid sampling of the Labour Force something does not ring true with recent hours worked data which has fallen [more people working, less hours] and if you look at unemployment by Province, half of them are at or near recession levels – below. All the heavy lifting is being done by BC, ON and PQ.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_provinces_by_unemployment_rate#Unemployment_by_province.2Fterritory

#131 Bitcoin on 12.06.17 at 1:40 pm

Sitting on a ridiculous profit , with the derivatives market set to open was thinking of selling , as shorters enter the market .

Actually a derivatives market echoes its legitimacy . Going to let this ride …

All the ‘ experts’ have been wrong …like my chances

#132 Ponzius Pilatus on 12.06.17 at 1:46 pm

Bit coin explained in German:
http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/bitcoin-blockchain-hashgraph-die-blase-die-bleibt-kolumne-a-1182013.html
———————–
One interesting point:
Why would you use a bit coin to buy a gum, when the coin could be worth 10x next week.
Ergo, no use for commerce.
Classic example of The Greater Fool theory

#133 Ponzius Pilatus on 12.06.17 at 2:05 pm

TIME magazine’s Person of the Year meets the Law of unintended consequences:
Male bosses will refuse hiring female employees.
Congratulatory hand shakes will be a thing of the past.
Will have to learn proper bowing techniques from the Japanese.

#134 Alistair McLaughlin on 12.06.17 at 2:11 pm

@ #56 dr. Talc, a free house and a monthly allowance in one’s thirties does not indicate “supportive parents”. It indicates a spoiled, entitled little beta male who will never be able to support himself or a family without parental subsidy. Also, the fact that his sister only discovered this support after a time in the relationship means he was misrepresenting himself as self-made. Such misrepresentation is grounds for dismissal for any thinking person.

#135 I’m stupid on 12.06.17 at 2:13 pm

I have it from a good source that a Canadian news anchor is going to be exposed for sexual harassment.

He already was. — Garth

#136 AGuyInVancouver on 12.06.17 at 2:28 pm

#42 Long-Time Lurker on 12.05.17 at 8:27 pm
…GuyInVan, when the housing market crashes so will Vancouver’s economy. Eat that.
_ _ _
I’m fully aware of that, and welcome it. because the crashing of the real estate economy will allow other sectors to flourish. Look at tech, currently constrained by our insane housing prices. We might actually be able to attract world class talent again to our universities. Bring on the end of the real estate economy!

BTW so sad to see the timid Poloz shirk his duty once again. He’s done more harm to Canada and Canadians than any one person in a long time. Fire him!

#137 Ubul on 12.06.17 at 3:08 pm

#131 Bitcoin on 12.06.17 at 1:40 pm
Sitting on a ridiculous profit , with the derivatives market set to open was thinking of selling , as shorters enter the market .

It will be interesting to see if cryptos will force exchanges to operate 24/7/365 – as cryptos have been traded all over the world, from the beginning. Forget holiday schedules.

#138 Cottingham a bargain on 12.06.17 at 3:17 pm

Wow nothing wrong at all with my previous post.

What are you afraid of ?

Regardless, more and more people can see through it

#139 SoggyShorts on 12.06.17 at 3:42 pm

#128 IHCTD9 on 12.06.17 at 12:41 pm
If you always get a minimum of $6,000 for your tax return, you are leaving a lot on the table.

You accountant should be able to predict what your return will be, and have that much less tax taken off your paycheck.

I’ve never had a return greater than a few hundred dollars–Why give the government an interest free loan?

#140 Ronaldo on 12.06.17 at 3:45 pm

This is what makes Bitcoin so absolutely ridiculous.

http://grist.org/article/bitcoin-could-cost-us-our-clean-energy-future/

#141 Ace Goodheart on 12.06.17 at 3:50 pm

So…..people earning around 160K or so per year, working full time hours or on salaries, have gone and purchased houses in Toronto worth north of a million, with down payments of around 100K or so and help from secondary financing and the usual top up from relatives.

A 900K to $1 million mortgage is not unusual or unheard of here. Many people have them. And are keeping up with the payments (barely).

Back when houses were going up 30% per year this made sense to do. After all, if you lost your job or got behind on your finances, you could just tap the 30% year over year increase in your house, and use that money to pay off bills or get you through hard times (if you had not already used that money for renovations, of course).

It was not an issue, as the prices went up 30% per year anyway. So even if you took out 30% equity in year one, it would be back again with interest in year two (30% of the initial value, + 30% of the capital gain from the first year).

No one bothered to check whether all of these mortgages were solvent or not.

Turns out that the old adage regarding housing bubbles and how to predict them (look for mortgage fraud – if you find a lot of it, then you can guarantee you’re in a housing bubble) has turned out to be true.

Moral of the story?

Almost time to buy bank stocks again. Wait for the crash…..

#142 shorting on 12.06.17 at 4:06 pm

Hmm…..
So those people here that were desperate to short bitcoin…
Are you enjoying that cad$ 17000,- coin at the moment?
It’s going to get worse, much worse, before it gets better.
Maybe take your losses, and cover those shorts then, eh?
Who is the fool now?

#143 IHCTD9 on 12.06.17 at 4:21 pm

#139 SoggyShorts on 12.06.17 at 3:42 pm
#128 IHCTD9 on 12.06.17 at 12:41 pm
If you always get a minimum of $6,000 for your tax return, you are leaving a lot on the table.

You accountant should be able to predict what your return will be, and have that much less tax taken off your paycheck.

I’ve never had a return greater than a few hundred dollars–Why give the government an interest free loan?
____________________________________

I’m not worried about it, what the gov takes off in income tax is not utterly abusive, as I’m far from a huge wage earner.

When I get the return back, a good chunk goes straight into RRSP’s for the current year so it is then destined to reduce my future taxes on wages I have not even earned yet.

So the Gov. is effectively giving back some of my taxes that I then use to further reduce my taxes in the following year – for as long as there is room in my RRSP. Meanwhile these deposits stay right there in the RRSP, and earn interest (also tax free).

I’ll call it even :).

You are right though, If I were a wage earner making 300K/yr, it would be a different story.

#144 Karma on 12.06.17 at 4:39 pm

#131 Bitcoin on 12.06.17 at 1:40 pm
“Sitting on a ridiculous profit , with the derivatives market set to open was thinking of selling , as shorters enter the market .

Actually a derivatives market echoes its legitimacy . Going to let this ride …

All the ‘ experts’ have been wrong …like my chances”
——————————-
Good thing CRA will extract capital gains tax on that profit. Good luck hiding it…

#145 Ace Goodheart on 12.06.17 at 4:44 pm

RE: #142 shorting on 12.06.17 at 4:06 pm

“Hmm…..
So those people here that were desperate to short bitcoin…
Are you enjoying that cad$ 17000,- coin at the moment?
It’s going to get worse, much worse, before it gets better.
Maybe take your losses, and cover those shorts then, eh?
Who is the fool now?”

These guys are rarely wrong:

https://www.fool.ca/2017/12/06/why-the-stupidity-of-bitcoin-is-nothing-new-to-me/

#146 maxx on 12.06.17 at 7:10 pm

#101 Howard on 12.06.17 at 7:47 am

Ummm…………..it was a trade mission…………China 1-0;
Philippines 1-0.

Difficult, if not impossible to mix business with morality, however noble. Greater chance of success if negotiated later.