Legally sad

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Here’s a cautionary tale for you. Sadly, you won’t read about this in the mainstream media (at least not until after this blog post), even though it involves alleged deception, disappointment, bankruptcy, flight and fraud. Over 90% of the victims are Chinese-Canadian families. Draw your own conclusions.

Four years ago it was just another Toronto condo mega-project that buyers were willing to lap up in the heavily Asian district around Yonge Street north of the 401. This one had two towers, a 150-suite hotel and 258 condos in the heart of a district now bristling with spires and clogged with traffic. Centrium was a joint project of a local firm and a Korean builder. The units sold in a cloud of pre-construction frenzy.

Now there’s $12.1 million in deposit money missing, an apparently bankrupted and disgraced lawyer, two hundred devastated buyers and allegations all those dollars are sitting in a Korean bank. The cops are involved. The law society is being bombarded. The jilted buyers are organizing and have been trying for weeks to get the attention of CTV, or CityTV, the Toronto Star – anyone.

Last year rumours swirled the site had been sold at least once and a new developer become involved. By this March it became apparent to many this puppy was in serious trouble. Construction was cancelled, along with communications. Worried buyers started looking to get their deposits back – from the developer, from lawyers and the new home warranty agency, Tarion.

At the centre of this was one Meerai Cho, a lawyer acting for the developer, into whose trust account a mess of depositors’ money flowed. By last month dozens of Centrium buyers had found each other through chat rooms and were barraging Cho’s office. By all accounts, she refused to respond. Frustration was building. As one buyer posted: “At the moment all I care about is that my money is safe. Can anyone at least confirm that our money is safe and that it hasn’t been stolen by these f*cking builders?”

Said another: “Meerai Cho had given away our money to the developer Joseph Lee, who had already fled to Korea. Meerai Cho as a trustee should not have done this, and this is considered illegal. This money, which is more than 15 million (possibly twice of this amount) dollar, should be paid to Joseph Lee after the construction completed. Meerai Cho shouldn’t have done this.”

Last week came the bad news, as online forums and the local Chinese media reported that lawyer Meerai Cho had gone bankrupt. This statement was attributed to her: “I was retained to act as the solicitor for a builder/developer (“Developer”) of a condominium project in Toronto. In that capacity I received, in trust, deposit monies for commercial, hotel and condominium units totaling approximately $12.1 million. In error I released these funds to the Developer who absconded with the funds.”

Yikes.

Worse, Cho’s bankruptcy and the inability of buyers to track down Centrium’s current owner/developer meant getting deposit money back was turning into a nightmare. According to Robert Charles, trustee in bankruptcy, Cho’s total debt on the day of collapse was $13.2 million, with only $863,000 of that secured. My calls to Cho’s office, by the way, have gone unanswered so I cannot independently verify these numbers. But, if true, they’re staggering.

Toronto fraud cops are investigating. In the matter of Cho’s missing trust account millions, there is a court hearing scheduled for September 2nd, but unlikely to be little more than procedural. The Law Society of Upper Canada has been fielding complaints, and the jilted, confused and abandoned buyers are trying this week to get attention. They got mine.

By the way, it’s not at all clear if these folks will get their money back, how much, or when. The Tarion warranty program does not necessarily cover a lawyer going bust. Instead the conditions for refund are (a) the bankruptcy of the builder, (b) a breach of the agreement by the builder or (c) the buyer proving they have the statutory right to treat the deal as terminated – which is a lengthy legal process. In any case, the maximum deposit covered is just $20,000, a fraction of what many in this instance handed over.

Lessons?

I will say it again. If you buy a condo in a pre-construction attack of hormonal delirium, you’re taking a big chance. It’s a futures contract, laden with risk. Centrium was supposed to be built a year ago, and is still a pile of dirt. Realtors flogging the project, collecting their commissions when agreements were signed, apparently felt no obligation to tell clients when material changes occurred. Lawyers obfuscated and dragged. Ultimately, as far as anyone knows, the unknown and unproven principal developer just took off.

Buyers were screwed, without a doubt. These buildings will never rise. A lot families will suffer. And there’s so much blame to go around.

Update Aug 22 9 am: CTV and CITYtv are now pursuing this story. Many jilted owners are planning to meet this Sunday afternoon to organize, and Tarion is telling folks to start processing their claim documents. No word from Korea.

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173 comments ↓

#1 Burnabybuyout on 08.21.14 at 5:12 pm

Shoulda bought with bosa!

#2 Derek R on 08.21.14 at 5:14 pm

Yikes indeed. There’s a definite lesson to be learned here. Real real estate is scary enough without getting involved with imaginary real estate.

If you can’t kick it don’t buy it.

#3 Piano_Man87 on 08.21.14 at 5:15 pm

Why isn’t the mainstream media picking this up? It seems like a very important story.

#4 Mishuko on 08.21.14 at 5:17 pm

The argument for real estate is there is something physical. Yea about those pre-construction units…

Wouldn’t this be criminal negligence by the trust lawyer?

#5 EtherGuy on 08.21.14 at 5:18 pm

Can’t trust 3rd party “professionals” with your money? No problem, there will soon be a technology to fix that.
Ethereum.org = The bitcoin of trustless transactions. You will be (directly or indirectly) using it in less than 5 years, I guarantee it.

Why will this work? Because cryptography. No, that’s not a malformed sentence. People are flawed, math is not. You can trust math. 1+1 always = 2.

One bankster plus one lawyer does not guarantee trust.

For many circumstances Ethereum it will replace lawyers, bankers, escrow agents, trust funds, brokers of all kinds and the like.

#6 smartalox on 08.21.14 at 5:22 pm

THIS is why they call it ‘Real Estate’ and not ‘Potential Estate’.

What’s the recourse here? If these people had invested with a securities brokerage, or a financial advisor, they’d be made whole. But who’ll pay here? The collective malpractice insurance of the Law Society of Ontario? The Real Estate Council of Ontario, by indemnifying its member realtors?

If the latter, it may be difficult, time consuming and expensive to prove each realtor involved breached a fiduciary duty to keep clients informed of changes in the status of the project. Of course, realtors at pre-sales work for the vendor.

I’m sure there weren’t many who brought their own representation to the pre-sale party.

#7 edmontonian here on 08.21.14 at 5:24 pm

Same thing here in edmonton. WE had several condos near downtown that collapsed into bankruptcy & are still empty lots from 2009, but less than a year ago the same thing here with a prestigious Glenora Skyline Development… Just west of downtown. The crane hasn’t moved in almost a year!
http://www.edmontonsun.com/2014/01/30/glenora-skyline-condomium-tower-construction-stopped-leaving-an-eyesore

#8 Yogi Bear on 08.21.14 at 5:25 pm

#3 Piano_Man87
Why isn’t the mainstream media picking this up? It seems like a very important story.

The mainstream media gets a lot of ad revenue from developers. Making them look bad and dishonest is probably not high on their agenda.

#9 Brian Ripley on 08.21.14 at 5:27 pm

I put together a new chart showing the recklessness of real estate buyers (especially in Toronto and Vancouver) in the face of their own lagging family income.

http://www.chpc.biz/history-readings/crazy-town

In the last decade:
Vancouver’s SFD prices increased by 99% but median Family Income rose only by 33%
Toronto’s SFD prices increased by 79% but median Family Income rose only by 30%
Calgary’s SFD prices increased by 66% but median Family Income rose only by 65%

Sentiment is difficult to change. There are so many stories of successful condo presales especially in the early days of a sales project that risk seems very remote. When trouble turns up, one’s income suddenly becomes noticeable because it’s income that has to pay for the negative yield and the hopelessness of capturing a capital gain. That’s the problem of sentiment vs. fundamentals.

#10 devore on 08.21.14 at 5:30 pm

Apparently the primary attraction of this development was that it was dirt cheap compared to nearby offerings, and cheaper than resale condos even. An unknown builder, a shady lawyer redirecting deposits to her trust account, a very risky futures contract indeed. When dealing with commodities, be it jet fuel, pork bellies, or gold, you can hedge and manage risk when you make a future delivery deal. These buyers have, what? A law society thin on funds? A home warranty company, with a payout reputation rivaling bargain US health care insurers? And yet, every single one of them was licking his chops at the prospect of cashing out and making bank.

#11 SUave on 08.21.14 at 5:31 pm

Lol
who cares…

who beat their ears to buy condo in first place…

GREED?

I am not sorry for secondary residence buyers , flippers,
and Starbucks suckers in lululemons…

I rent.
I don’t have enough to invest with R&J ,
i just want to be like Garth!

but with healthy leg…

#12 totalinvestor.com on 08.21.14 at 5:31 pm

Can the lawyers and realtors be sued?

http://postimg.org/image/rqv8idg89/

#13 Allen Teslade on 08.21.14 at 5:34 pm

Canadians are stupid.

#14 Patient in Richmond on 08.21.14 at 5:35 pm

why would anybody buy something thats not there ?

its their own fault sorry

#15 Terrier on 08.21.14 at 5:42 pm

Why isn’t the mainstream media reporting on this? Quite simple … the drunken market can’t be disturbed, future buyers might get cold feet, become fearful and bail out. Sweep it under the rug and keep quiet. There will be a lineup of new suckers waiting to dive into shady contracts and risk years of savings. As per these poor souls, most likely they won’t see their deposits ever again.

#16 harden on 08.21.14 at 5:44 pm

#3 Piano_Man87, #7 Yogi Bear

Ad revenue from developers is all that’s left funding yesterday’s news in newsprint, or whatever’s left of newsprint, recycled at every bus stop and rapid transit station. Condo economy.

#17 Ray Skunk on 08.21.14 at 5:45 pm

Although nothing is ever 100% safe, I can’t believe the lack of research into the developer you’re handing five-figure sums over to.

I’d never heard of them. There is no website. This is – err, was – their only project; zero history. Instead of starting off with a small infill like most new kids on the block, they went gung-ho planning on putting up two towers with a triple-figure number of suites in a prime spot.

If those aren’t red flags then I have no idea what is. At best it was ambitious, at worst a scam from the outset.

It’s not as if there’s a shortage of projects in Toronto for which you can pick and choose a developer with a decent reputation.

Whatever happened to due diligence?

#18 Privatizing losses... on 08.21.14 at 5:47 pm

Maybe a few more stories of this nature would actually result in some dampening of the enthusiasm for RE.

Unfortunately though, if this story gets publicized, all it will do is fuel the ‘victim’ mentality much like the stories in 2009 when buyers were trying to break their pre-sale contracts once prices dropped…

Too often, gains are privatized and losses socialized. In this story, it at least sounds like the losses are privatized.

I know a story of a TD financial planner that took off with hundreds of thousands of our friend’s parent’s money, and the case is in court. That would be a story worth publicizing – a case of fraud in a regulated industry, not this car of fraud in a wannabe ‘professional industry.’

Buyer beware!

#19 JSS on 08.21.14 at 5:57 pm

Man, this is sad. Even though it’s buyer beware.

Most of these folks will NEVER be able to recoup their losses.

Imagine how many other similar horror stories are out there across the country. Yet, media powers will not report due to their relationship with developers.

#20 Omg on 08.21.14 at 6:02 pm

LAW SOCIETY INSURANCE

I thought part of the millions lawyers pay to the Ontario Law Society was for insurance to cover screw-ups like this?

And this truly a monumental screw-up.

How does a lawyer cut a check in error for $12 million?

Like, wouldn’t you ask yourself if it makes sense to give a guy $12 million before the foundation is even poured?

#21 Londoner on 08.21.14 at 6:02 pm

Just coming back from another night out in London, can’t believe I’m reading this blog right now. Didn’t see any response to my questions from yesterday’s post. That tells me everything I need to know.

Is the condo game up in Toronto? I have a few colleagues here that bought Toronto condos preconstruction (they’re expats so won’t appear as the foreign investors they are). A couple of them saying now they would be lucky to get what they paid 3yrs ago. They bought TIFF condos and all that junk. Oh well, chump change to these guys.

#22 chuckles on 08.21.14 at 6:10 pm

Oh the irony of watching money laundering in reverse. Instead of watching HAM hide stolen Asian money in Canada……we are now seeing HAM stashing stolen Canadian money in Asia. The fun fact is that Canada will do nothing as it has no extradition treaty or legal reciprocity with any Asian nation.

The idea that we the taxpayer should have to pony up the minimum $20K is offensive. Sell the assets remaining and distribute them equitably as in any orderly bankruptcy proceeding.

#23 Ford Prefect on 08.21.14 at 6:12 pm

“I was retained to act as the solicitor for a builder/developer (“Developer”) of a condominium project in Toronto. In that capacity I received, in trust, deposit monies for commercial, hotel and condominium units totalling approximately $12.1 million. In error I released these funds to the Developer who absconded with the funds.”

It appears at first blush that the Law Society of Ontario will be on the hook for the entire amount. Unless there are some very strange circumstances here, the release of trust funds usually only occurs after all conditions are checked and double checked. Not to sound sanctimonious but trust funds are sacred. To say that they were released in error just does not cut it.

#24 DocInWaitingRoom on 08.21.14 at 6:15 pm

Money in virtual real estate is an even worse investment than real estate in Jokeville.

17% down from 1 million Garth in 6 months and we’ve just begun. Just give it a few years and buying 1 mill homes at 400k will be a reality

#25 Vamanos Pest on 08.21.14 at 6:30 pm

The injured parties may individually seek damages from their own lawyers for failing to foresee and advise on this potential scenario.

What’s that? They didn’t have lawyers?

Well who’s fault is that?

#26 2cntscdn on 08.21.14 at 6:31 pm

There will be more and more of this as the Toronto RE magic show’s lights start to dim. Way too many deposit dollars sitting in accounts to be left alone when things crumble. So if the lawyer holding the deposits in trust goes belly up the developers aren’t responsible to pay back the deposits eh? hmmmm. I wonder if there are any other ways developers can scoot away with customers money? They will figure more out. Big business contains creative and smart crooks.

#27 Son of Ponzi on 08.21.14 at 6:32 pm

Korean lawyer absconding with HAM deposits.
Gotta love the irony.

#28 stop lying on 08.21.14 at 6:34 pm

lol, who’s the racist now, that’s a Korean area, not Chinese. Given the developer and lawyer are both Korean I’m sure they were pumping it heavily to Koreans.

#29 Oceanside on 08.21.14 at 6:35 pm

Sad to see such greed, I don’t feel sorry for these people, condo pre sales are a mug’s game at the best of time. “If something seems too good to be true, it probably is”

Hopefully this will get out to potential buyers of these condo developments and slow things down a bit.

#30 OffshoreObserver on 08.21.14 at 6:36 pm

This has similarities to the Martin Wirick fraud in Vancouver. In his case, the B.C. Law Society increased its assessment amount for every lawyer in B.C. to recoup and estimated $38 million.
Martin Wirick fraud search

#31 Andres on 08.21.14 at 6:36 pm

They upped our law society fees in BC last year to cover the “special compensation fund” for victims of misappropriation or wrongful conversion. I wonder if such a thing would even be covered by this kind of error given it seems to be malpractice and not fraud.

At any rate, people should be able to make individual claims, so the practice insurance should cover it. I’m sure the good lawyers of Ontario won’t be hard up to pay the $300 increase next year to cover this.

#32 mitzerboy on 08.21.14 at 6:36 pm

teeheehee…
we got one of dem condo things here in regina that keeps gittin delayed and backed up…no dirt moved yet after many years.

#33 earthboundmisfit on 08.21.14 at 6:38 pm

Proving….yet again…..beyond the shadow of a doubt…
You can’t fix stupid. Sorry – no sympathy.

#34 DreamingInTechnicolour on 08.21.14 at 6:39 pm

This is why we rent our home, when prices get sky high, people make dumb financial decisions that will affect their lives for decades. Pay cheap rent and wait out the market until 2017 and watch for great deals when the wheels come off.

#35 nonplused on 08.21.14 at 6:39 pm

Yikes! What a story.

Sometimes the true nature of human beings leaves me feeling like rye (or scotch) is the only reasonable coping method. It’s a dichotomy. On the one hand we can be really clever and build iPads and go to space. On the other hand we lie, cheat, steal and kill. Makes me think we are not, at least when considered as a complete species, endowed with any natural moral sense whatsoever and just do what looks the most profitable given the personal risk.

#36 2cntscdn on 08.21.14 at 6:40 pm

…. and lawyers will be freaking out now as they release some of these huge deposits to developers to (hopefully) go towards building their projects. Because sounds like they are on the hook if the developer bolts.

#37 renniesrant on 08.21.14 at 6:42 pm

im sure the developer is having a great party in Seoul! He must be a talented flim flam man….

#38 Future Expatriate on 08.21.14 at 6:49 pm

Just saw an unbelievable 60 Minutes report on China where they’ve built entire cities, block after block after mile, that are solely investor owned and unoccupied. Empty shopping malls and freeways by the hundreds. And more stopped lock dead in the middle of construction.

At least we didn’t go THAT far. Will be interesting to see how capitalism without ENOUGH gov regulation?! pops over there.

#39 A Yank in BC on 08.21.14 at 6:50 pm

Anyone besides me notice just how ugly and dated the buildings would have looked? They look like what was being built in Toronto in the 60’s. I think overall.. it’s a big win for the city of North York that they won’t be built.

#40 NostyVlad the Snugglebombed on 08.21.14 at 6:54 pm

RE is a great cure for insomnia, but the utter stupidity of sheeples never ceases to amaze. There really is nothing new under the sun.

Putin vs. Rothschild & Soros No confirmation yet, but it would make things more interesting if it were.

“Now there’s $12.1 million in deposit money missing, a bankrupted and disgraced lawyer, . . .”

This planet should be renamed Fraud Inc., as there is a common, consistent theme (MH370) traversing the world.

#41 crowdedelevatorfartz on 08.21.14 at 6:55 pm

Hmmmmmm, presale condos
“Gang”nam Style

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CDAQtwIwBA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DCH1XGdu-hzQ&ei=g3j2U-qfDdKsogSUo4HoDA&usg=AFQjCNHIUQNQ-8px23iE6H0U2zyJLgCZsA&bvm=bv.73373277,d.cGU

sorry Garth, I couldnt resist

#42 Sebee on 08.21.14 at 6:58 pm

Now I will say it.

Wasn’t misery week last week? Garth, can we go out this wek on a happy one tomorrow? Something with babe on a unicorn spreading acorns…which are really just a different way to say “one corn”.

#43 TimV on 08.21.14 at 7:11 pm

The claim in this article is that Tarion is telling purchasers to make a deposit claim (for up to $20k only).

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/arrested-development-were-centrium-condo-173404987.html

Ugly, regardless. I wonder how many deposits exceeded $20k — $12m / 400 suites = $30k average deposit. But probably there were less than 400 suites sold, say 65% sold, so 260 suites. $12m/260= $46k average deposit.

I’d say something needs to be overhauled if these aren’t recovered — either Tarion, or perhaps the lawyers’ insurance.

#44 Alberta Guy on 08.21.14 at 7:13 pm

Better Call Saul!

#45 Shawn on 08.21.14 at 7:16 pm

A condo pre-build went bust in St. Albert, Alberta as well.

http://www.stalbertgazette.com/article/20140820/SAG0801/308209987/0/sag&template=JQMArticle

#46 Mister Obvious on 08.21.14 at 7:19 pm

#14 Patient in Richmond

“why would anybody buy something thats not there ?”
———————-

It’s called ‘futures trading’ and it’s done all the time.

But usually by people who know what they’re doing and are prepared to take significant risk.

Not like in this particular case.

#47 Freedom First on 08.21.14 at 7:24 pm

Legally sad. Great title Garth.

It truly is a “Buyer Beware” world. The years I have been reading this Blog, Garth has written many posts on how to financially protect yourself in many different financial transactions. Not only that, he has opened himself to life threatening e-mails by having the titanium appendages, 1 being his gonads, to publish the perpetrators of lies, deceit, and fraud by company names and also by the individuals personal names. Garth, thank you for the work you do. Nothing but the truth. Another reason I always keep the thought of “Freedom First”.

#48 Victoria Real Estate Update on 08.21.14 at 7:25 pm

. . . . . . SFH Percent Price Decline From Peak. . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . .(Median Price Data). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. .(Esquimalt, Sidney, Colwood, Langford and Sooke) . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
0%. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
-0.5%. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
-1.0%. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
-1.5%. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
-2.0%. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
-2.5%. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
-3.0%. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
-3.5%. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
-4.0%. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
-4.5%. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
-5.0%. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
-5.5%. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
-6.0%. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
-6.5%. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
-7.0%. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
-7.5%. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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-8.5% . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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-10.0%. . . . . . . .*. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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-11.0%. . . . . . . . . . . .*. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
-11.5%. . *. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
-12.0%. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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-13.0%. . . . . .* . . . . . . . . . . . . .*. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
-13.5%. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .*. *. . . . . . . . * . . . . . . . .
-14.0%. . . .*. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .*. *. *. . .*. *. . . . .
-14.5%. . . . . . . . . . . . . .* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
——————————————————————————————-
. . . . . . . S. O. N. D. J. F. M. A. M. J. J. A. S. O. N .D. . . .
. . . . . . . . .2012. . /. . . . . . . . . .2013. . . . . . . . . . . . .

(3-month) median price data for the lower end of Greater Victoria’s single family home market has been plotted on this chart. This data hasn’t been available since the end of 2013.

At the end of December 2013, SFH prices in these areas were down 14%.

The upper end of the SFH market is made up of Oak Bay, Saanich East and North Saanich. At the end of December 2013, SFH prices in these areas were down 11%. Condos and townhouses across Greater Victoria were down substantially from peak as well at the end of 2013.

Since 2010, the general direction of prices in Victoria has been down, although it hasn’t been uncommon for prices to (temporarily) increase slightly during the spring/summer market. This has a lot to do with a higher than normal proportion of extensively renovated,/well-maintained house sales skewing the price data upward during these months.

Assessment home values across Greater Victoria have been down for three consecutive years. Below are examples of above average houses in above average areas of Greater Victoria that have been sitting on the market with no buyer, despite being listed well below current assessed values (which are lower than peak assessed values).

1600 Oceanspray Drive (North Saanich)
* Asking price: $767 K ($53 K below current assessed value)
* 5 bdrms, 4 baths, 4,650 sq. ft., water views, private 1 acre lot, 3 car garage

157 Olive Street in Victoria (core area)
* Asking price: $599 K ($23 K below current assessed value)
* 3 bdrms, 1190 sq. ft., extensively renovated, private lot blocks from the ocean, garage

SFH sales in 2014 have been well below Greater Victoria’s long-term average. This has been the case since 2010. 2014 is on track to have the fourth lowest SFH sales total in Victoria’s history, marginally better than the three worst years for SFH sales, which were 2011, 2012 and 2013 (population adjusted).

There simply can be no significant, sustained price recovery in Victoria when sales totals are this low. Low sales is probably the most obvious sign of an extremely weak and unhealthy housing market.

House prices in Victoria remain deep in bubble territory, despite the significant correction from peak. The degree of overvaluation of Victoria’s housing market is extreme, similar to that of the bubbliest housing markets (Los Angeles, San Diego, Las Vegas, Phoenix and Miami) at the peak of the 2006 US housing bubble.

Price-to-rent ratio is, arguably, the most important metric to consider when attempting to gauge the degree of overvaluation of a housing market. A housing market with a healthy price-to-rent ratio is a market where rents are high enough to provide house price support and stability. That rents are high enough to support house prices indicates that the economy and wages are strong enough to support house prices.

In Victoria, rents are not high enough to support house prices. This means that Victoria’s economy and wages are not strong enough to support current house prices. As a result, house prices in Victoria will fall a lot more before a price bottom is reached.

Let’s take a look at house prices in Palm Bay, Florida, where house prices are close to being supported by rents.

House criteria:
* min. 3 bed, 2 bath
* min. 1800 sq. ft. of above ground primary (main) living space
* 2004 or newer
* attached double garage

In Victoria, a house like this would cost about $700 K.

In Palm Bay, the combined value of these 6 houses (that fit the above criteria) is about $733 K.

$115 K (3 beds, 2 baths, 1,944 sq. ft.)
$117 K (3 beds, 2 baths, 1.942 sq. ft.)
$123 K (3 beds, 2 baths, 2,118 sq. ft.)
$127 K (3 beds, 2 baths, 1,894 sq. ft.)
$127 K (3 beds, 2 baths, 2,006 sq. ft.)
$124 K (3 beds, 2 baths, 2,020 sq. ft.)

Girls and guys, house prices in Victoria will fall a lot more before a price bottom is reached. There are many near-peak buyers in Victoria that have underwater mortgages and, as a result, can’t move up the property ladder. Many of these near-peak buyers are stuck in their homes and have been eliminated as move-up buyers. This is part of the reason sales are so slow in Victoria. Don’t put yourself in that situation. Rent for now and wait for lower prices.

Until next time – Cheers!

#49 Stomper on 08.21.14 at 7:25 pm

I would have thought the investors would have a claim against Cho’s professional indemnity policy?

#50 Piccaso on 08.21.14 at 7:28 pm

Alberta story…

I did something today I’ve never done before and I feel damn good about it.

This guy in a big shiny new raised pick up parked so close to me I couldn’t open my door and get in my rental car. I had to get in the passenger side.

So I wrote a note and stuck it on his windshield… “Next time leave a can opener so I can get in my car with a finger ,!,

After getting in my passenger door and crawling over the console , I opened my drivers door so friggen hard and banged him that I left a 12″ long 1/2” wide scrape on his shiny new raised pickup.

#51 Joe2.0 on 08.21.14 at 7:32 pm

Sounds like there’s some regulatory issues.
Or lack of…

#52 Vlad on 08.21.14 at 7:32 pm

I for one am really glad that this painful erection will never thrust itself into the fundament of the Toronto skyline. The last thing Toronto needs is another architectural nightmare. What an incredibly ugly building!

#53 DaleFromCalgary on 08.21.14 at 7:34 pm

#5 wrote: ” Can’t trust 3rd party “professionals” with your money? No problem, there will soon be a technology to fix that. Ethereum.org = The bitcoin of trustless transactions. You will be (directly or indirectly) using it in less than 5 years, I guarantee it.Why will this work? Because cryptography. … For many circumstances Ethereum it will replace lawyers, bankers, escrow agents, trust funds, brokers of all kinds and the like.”

That was what Bitcoin fans said, and it didn’t stop the theft from Mt. Gox. Virtual currencies are to physical gold and silver coins what pre-build condo sales are to buying an existing house.

The fiasco that Garth describes is nothing new. Calgary has had several holes in the ground that sat for years while the cases worked their way through the courts.

#54 Chraotic on 08.21.14 at 7:35 pm

Disgusting what greed can do. Hope they find the fraudster and hang him by his balls. The lawyer’s most likely involved and got a cut; either that or grossly incompetent.

Oh people, seriously, let this be a lesson. Don’t buy condos, just rent them instead. Way easier, and probably much cheaper in both the long and short term.

#55 Lurcher on 08.21.14 at 7:37 pm

Here is a stalled commercial project in Prince George BC. That city seems to have visions of grandeur.

http://www.250news.com/blog/view/33068/1/hotel+project+still+idle?

PS: I do not live in PGBC.

#56 PeterfromCalgary on 08.21.14 at 7:38 pm

Crooks always go to where the money is. Anytime you have a boom you get crooks.

#57 eddy on 08.21.14 at 7:38 pm

Yes, they bought Unreal Estate. I have zero sympathy for purchasers who buy something that does not exist from the owner of a vacant lot.

Today while driving on the Gardiner I thought ‘TO looks somehow similar to Asian cities’. And I wondered if the architectural firms are copying Asia, or buying plans from Asian firms. Does this look like TO to you?

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01897/singapore_1897281b.jpg

#58 Nemesis on 08.21.14 at 7:39 pm

#LucyLiuKnowsWhatToDo…

http://youtu.be/sJlu_xo79k8

#59 dienekes on 08.21.14 at 7:49 pm

Im putting up a condo, please send money (cash) to me to secure your suite.
Hahaha

#60 Roman on 08.21.14 at 7:50 pm

who really cares about these dumb speculators? Greedy idiots.

#61 SealTeam0 (So secret I'm not sure I exist) on 08.21.14 at 7:50 pm

I supect it will be a long time before this bankruptcy is ever approved by the court. It is way to suspicious that that amount of money was released in error. One would expect the cops would be looking into the lawyer’s action as a part of their investigation which in itself would likely be cause to delay the bankruptcy proceedings.
Despite what another comment said I believe there is a extradition treaty between Canada and Korea. I assume it’s South Korea if it’s North Korea whole different story.
The whole thing seems a purposeful fraud and if the lawyer was that stupid I don’t know how she got through law school.

#62 Smoking Man on 08.21.14 at 7:51 pm

From a dark void in interspace I carefully watch the human race.

Sipping Tennessee Burbin preparing my next sermin.

The herd is dumb, it’s leaders scum, and that’s how it’s always been.

In my little nock I’m writing a book, to show you what bastards took

I’m far far away while I sit near you.
They say I’m crazy but I know I’m just God damn lazy.
I can’t spell so send me to hell, and be on your marry way.
You can find me here on this pathetic blog typing hard
while making a log.

For I am the Smoking Man with a tan, I always know that I can..

#63 Happy Renting on 08.21.14 at 7:54 pm

Sad story. Even if the buyers were greedy and negligent the outright theft of their money is still wrong and a criminal act.

$12.1M / 200 buyers = average deposit of $60,500. That’s just the mean, but it’s big enough to suggest that the loss may be insurmountable for some of the buyers (depending on income, years of working life left, percentage of total wealth, source of financing, etc.) Cat food retirement or living with the kids for the rest of their days?

Worth noting the story starts four years ago. This current round of RE mania (and the irrational behaviour to fuel it) has been going on for quite some time now.

Garth, thanks for giving the buyers a voice. I thought maybe one MSM outlet had reported something on this story, but can certainly see how their ad revenue might influence them to seek “more relevant news”.

#64 Mr. Frugal on 08.21.14 at 7:58 pm

I would never buy a new house or condo for this very reason. The builder has all the cards. When you buy a used house, you get to see what you are buying. And if you don’t like it, you just keep on truckin.

#65 Nemesis on 08.21.14 at 8:06 pm

[email protected] (So secret I’m not sure I exist) #BonusZenForCinephileDoggies… #OrBeCarefulWhatYouWishFor…

http://youtu.be/ytOD9ZxLvEs

#66 crowdedelevatorfartz on 08.21.14 at 8:06 pm

@#50 Picasso
I usually leave an 8.5 x 11 note in black marker saying,
” Congrats! You win Asshole of the Parking Lot Award”
And leave it “face out” on the windshield so that everyone else can see it too.
Then I take 4 golf tees and place one under each tire……………… :)-

#67 Smoking Man on 08.21.14 at 8:18 pm

That story will never be in MSM

Will destroy confidence in the condo market. Advertising will dry up.

Maybe RT or PressTV will pick it up.. But who reads that propaganda..

#68 Sebee on 08.21.14 at 8:21 pm

#62 Smoking Man

I was like…wow…He’s a poet too? Is there anything he can’t do? Until…oh no, did he just rhyme blog with log? Are we to better our poetic skills under Smoking Man’s poetic expert tutelage if best he can deliver is blog/log?

#69 Catalyst on 08.21.14 at 8:25 pm

There’s a reason the industry revolves around holdbacks of funds. Construction is filled with shady characters.

The only lesson here is, they used a lawyer with less than 10 years experience in a mom and pop law office. No assurance, no senior managers to sign off on the release of funds. The front page of her website says she specializes in Immigration & Regugee (her typo not mine)

There was no due dilligence done here on anyone’s part, and I hope serious jail time awaits those involved.

#70 Tony on 08.21.14 at 8:40 pm

The buyers got off easy all they lost was their deposit and lawyers fees. Had the deal gone through the buyers would have lost quote “their shirt” when the condo market went bust to the tune of 50 to 90 percent. The lesson to be learned is never buy high and hope to sell higher because in the long run everyone who does that ends up flat broke.

#71 ozy -yeah, great area... on 08.21.14 at 8:47 pm

yeah, some suburbarns might say: a great area… maybe for some, but so very undesirable for others…

well, I wouldn’t have touched that congested former NY city hall area if you paid me.

my take: the builder bailed because that whole area will probably be worth 35% less when would have been ready

#72 Flawed on 08.21.14 at 9:05 pm

#53 DaleFromCalgary on 08.21.14 at 7:34 pm
#5 wrote: ” Can’t trust 3rd party “professionals” with your money? No problem, there will soon be a technology to fix that. Ethereum.org = The bitcoin of trustless transactions. You will be (directly or indirectly) using it in less than 5 years, I guarantee it.Why will this work? Because cryptography. … For many circumstances Ethereum it will replace lawyers, bankers, escrow agents, trust funds, brokers of all kinds and the like.”

That was what Bitcoin fans said, and it didn’t stop the theft from Mt. Gox. Virtual currencies are to physical gold and silver coins what pre-build condo sales are to buying an existing house.

********************************

There always has to be a “Mt Goxer” in the crowd. Because Lehman never happened and MF Global never happened and AIG never happened and Goldman Sucks and its mortgage death paper it bet against while bankrupting countries never happened.

Bitcoin was “hacked”. All of the above was premeditated as well. Does that mean we ban money?

Bitcoin itself cannot be phonied or cheated. But like money you can occasionally steal it. That’s why MOST bitcoin is held in a private wallet where you cannot steal it. And unlike money…..you cannot fraud it with well cooked books.

Bitcoin will win eventually. It’s a mathematical certainty.

Those that bet against it are the same crowd who bet against streaming movies and shopping online. How did that bet turn out?

#73 Kenchie on 08.21.14 at 9:10 pm

Londoner on 08.21.14 at 6:02 pm

This question? I ain’t Garth, but I will take a stab.

Garth – we’ve heard a lot from you about the impact that emergency level rates in Canada have had on consumer debt, 1) but what impact do you think they’ve had on economic growth and employment? 2) Do you disagree with the fiscal and monetary policies implemented in Canada since the GFC? 3) If you were the Governor of the BoC and/or Finance Minister what would you have done differently? What would you do if you had to take the reigns today?

Answers:
1) Low rates have had a mixed impact on economic growth and, hence, employment after the GFC. Firstly, after rates were dropped to avoid the collapse of marginal companies (keeping people employed) and propping up demand (willingness AND ability of consumption), this kept demand somewhat better off than if rates remained higher than “zero interest rate policy” (as per the Fed. Secondly, with a lack of bankruptcies, “zombie companies” (as they are known in the UK) continue to muddle along with doing some hiring here, and some downsizing there, but no real growth spurts on a big time scale. If rates were higher, they would have been either pushed to bankruptcy and either taken over completely by a stronger competitor looking to grow, or liquidated with their assets sold by the bank to other competitors looking to grow on the cheap. Thirdly, from an equity investor point of view, the required rate of return on equity (RRR) has fallen as the risk-free rate has fallen since the GFC. Thus, investors are bidding up the price of securities for the simple fact that their discount rate is lower than before, and yet the firms’ risk profile probably hasn’t gotten any stronger than pre-GFC.

So for your first question, my three points would 1) positive for economic growth in the short-term, 2) lack of new companies/ideas are coming out of this low interest rate environment to spur good job creation is bad in the long-term, and 3) investors are more complacent now than before when it comes to pricing risk, so they don’t need high growth companies when many companies generate cash and pay it back in the form of dividends or share buybacks is bad in the long-term.

Question 2 in the next post.

#74 Spencer on 08.21.14 at 9:13 pm

“I will say it again. If you buy a condo in a pre-construction attack of hormonal delirium, then you’re taking a big chance”

Same goes for paper gold and silver, all Ponzi schemes. Real assets are real estate, real gold, real silver, real money.

I’ve been hearing so many complaints on the internet about the dating market in Toronto, and I doubt that men are going to be fooled into paying down for a promise contract at the command of his cupcake.

Marriage rates and divorce rates do have a sort of impact in the housing market. How many couples bought houses in a state of love and romance, and how many are still together and who owns the home?

Young men, take your elders advice. The world is out there for you to explore. Why pay $800,000 for a cabin house in Toronto when you can buy an estate in another country?

#75 Retired Boomer - WI on 08.21.14 at 9:24 pm

Well, in the states the lawyer might well find a “contract” has been placed on her imminent disposal.

Done quite regularly by defrauded people.

Would I feel ‘sorry’, in a word… NO

#76 Kenchie on 08.21.14 at 9:26 pm

Londoner on 08.21.14 at 6:02 pm

Continuation…

2) “Do you disagree with the fiscal and monetary policies implemented in Canada since the GFC?”

Fiscal: Yes and no. The cons have had the opportunity to borrow (god forbid!) to invest in revamping so much of our infrastructure over the past 5 years, but because they are ideologically bent (for good or bad – gotta keep those political promises!), they’ve chosen not to. Canada’s infrastructure isn’t in terrible state, in my opinion, but things can always be better. Look at the Crossrail in London. That’s a massive project. HS2 ain’t small either. The gov’t needs to spend on good, efficiency-improving infrastructure to smooth economic activity. That said, the provinces haven’t been much better.

Monetary: Bank of Canada, at its best of times, is hardly able to act alone in this globalised world. With big brother (or should I say sister) The Fed being the unofficial central bank to the world, Mark Carney was more or less forced to lower rates otherwise the relatively thinly traded CAD would continue to be elevated while our largest trading partner was in a deep recession. Now that the US is recovering, albeit in convulsions, the monetary policy should begin to change to meet the new realities. Which is most likely a 3 to 6 months delay in what the Fed does. If there is one period I found strange is that Carney raised rates by 75 bps from June to Sept 2010, which may have been premature and unnecessary.

Question 3 next.

#77 Ret on 08.21.14 at 9:29 pm

Were there any lucky buyers who got to purchase multiple units? I hope so.

#78 Fed-up on 08.21.14 at 9:29 pm

As PT Barnum once said…

#79 Ian on 08.21.14 at 9:34 pm

Busted out developer in downtown Kingston, another company has to step in to finish the job:

http://www.ckwstv.com/2014/07/18/doornekamp-to-finish-anna-lane-condo/

#80 somanet on 08.21.14 at 9:53 pm

@#3 Piano_Man87:
“Why isn’t the mainstream media picking this up? It seems like a very important story.”

Because they are too busy following Rob Ford to see if he is still going to the LCBO !! LOL – Do you guys really expect any “NEWS” from these clowns at City-CBC-CTY Cissies ?

#81 Piccaso on 08.21.14 at 9:55 pm

#66 crowdedelevatorfartz

I guess I could have left the note with my black felt marker on the side of his door.

#82 Kenchie on 08.21.14 at 9:55 pm

Londoner on 08.21.14 at 6:02 pm

3) “If you were the Governor of the BoC and/or Finance Minister what would you have done differently? What would you do if you had to take the reigns today?”

As BoC Gov, I would wait until inflation is 2.5% or higher for some time before raising rates by 25 bps. I don’t know exactly how long it takes for the effects of higher rates take to work through the economy to show up in the inflation figures, but I think there is a benefit to letting the higher inflation last for a while (say 1 year or so) to counteract the quite long period of less than 2% inflation that happened in 2012-2013.

As finance minister, I would sleep the grin off of Joe O first and foremost. Then I would raise the income brackets for everyone. It should help keep money in the pockets of the people who need it the most. And I would earmark more cash for infrastructure programs for the cities transportation needs. It should be a national priority to increase public transportation in larger centres, and also cities that are mid-sized like Kitchener-Waterloo and London, Ont. Sooner they act like a grown-up city, less urban sprawl will be required.

#83 OneMoreThing on 08.21.14 at 9:59 pm

It wont stop the buying, just the buying of pre-sales condos advertised by foreigners!

#84 april on 08.21.14 at 10:08 pm

Copy the story and distribute it for all to read.

#85 unbalanced on 08.21.14 at 10:26 pm

Remember Portus Alternative Investments? The man got away with close to 9 million dollars in diamonds. His sister picked them up and he has no idea where they are. Google it. It is an interesting read.

#86 Yuus bin Haad on 08.21.14 at 10:31 pm

Now, this is the kind of posting I keep checkin’ IN for!

Time to organize the Angry Mob.

#87 Jon on 08.21.14 at 10:35 pm

Dont worry about it they will all be ahead after real estate values drop more than their deposits… Maybe the bad karma will turn out positive in the end. It looks like only Cho will lose if this scenario plays out.

#88 Smoking Man on 08.21.14 at 10:38 pm

Garth I’m not the only one claiming fake, social media is a buzz, I’m only trying to give your readers an opportunity to make some serious loot…

Why have no idea why , 90% hate my guts… Just ego I guess, and other prediction out if the park..

But it’s not related so I get it… But man.. They invest in war… Easy money..

Tell your buddies,, keep it from the dog..

Vanish this one too.. I hate putting these out with no skin in the game…

#89 Bottoms_Up on 08.21.14 at 10:42 pm

my heart goes out to those people and families that lost money. hopefully they can track the bastard down and get some justice.

#90 wayne on 08.21.14 at 10:47 pm

#72 Flawed on 08.21.14 at 9:05 pm
Bitcoin will win eventually. It’s a mathematical certainty.

Those that bet against it are the same crowd who bet against streaming movies and shopping online. How did that bet turn out?

Bitcoin is eGold. It will not “win”. It will not “lose” either. Your analogy fails miserably, not least because central banks control what is and what is not valid tender and because they do not control bitcoins, bitcoins will never become legal tender locally – you know, where people actually live.

#91 kg on 08.21.14 at 10:47 pm

Must be happy news for realtors – fresh new 250 buyers (albeit with no money :() !

#92 Herb on 08.21.14 at 10:53 pm

Ray Skunk,

thanks for resurrecting this story in your #18 yesterday. Just shook my head last night, still don’t believe it reading it here to-day, but I can see it happening.

Even with Garth giving it legs, the Toronto media will have a hard time following through. They can hardly panic the condo-buying public and imperil their advertising revenue stream.

#93 kg on 08.21.14 at 10:53 pm

….but that’s nothing different (no money), the realtors and bankers are used to such clients.

#94 Ronaldo on 08.21.14 at 11:06 pm

#22 Chuckles –

”Sell the assets remaining and distribute them equitably as in any orderly bankruptcy proceeding.”

Problem is that after it’s all said and done the lawyers and accountants will get most of it.

#95 Musty Basement Dweller on 08.21.14 at 11:18 pm

Just one of many Ponzi schemes reaching their peak.

Newsflash..condo developers and flippers/ investors will bail like rats once they smell the coffee about the party being over.

Doesn’t really matter what happens to interest rates although that will certainly speed up the gas coming out of this real estate bag.

#96 Smoking Man on 08.21.14 at 11:36 pm

I finally finished reading old man in the sea by hemming way.

I sucks…. I’m so much better…

Hunter S Thomson he stayed within expanded boundaries..

Did he have any characters that loved to have sex with porcupines… Ha… I own this.

I know my book will not be a best seller.. But hell I hate people anyway.

A small cult of 27 is a win… Plus I look like such an idiot speaking to large crowds…

#97 JimH on 08.21.14 at 11:49 pm

#46 Mister Obvious in response to
#14 Patient in Richmond who stated:
… “why would anybody buy something that’s not there?”
===================
Mister Obvious stated:
“It’s called ‘futures trading’ and it’s done all the time.
But usually by people who know what they’re doing and are prepared to take significant risk.
Not like in this particular case.”
======================
Mister Obvious, you’re comparing apples to oranges, sir.

Actually what you’re talking about is most forms of “derivative trading”; that is, trading in an asset whose market price is dependent on or “derived” from at least one underlying asset. This takes the form of a contract, the value of which is the implied value (often based on market pricing + a time premium) and subject to the vicissitudes and fluctuations of the market price of the underlying asset.

The key point is that there really is a viable underlying asset, be it commodities, currencies, stocks, bonds, indexes, etc. These underlying assets are concrete and very real.

Call and put options, all futures and forward contracts, and some forms of swaps are all forms of derivatives.

Again all of these derive their price on the perceived present and future value of an underlying asset. At least when a derivative contract appears heading south, it can still be sold for something to a ‘greater fool’ before it expires worthless.

In this frightening condo debacle, there really is no real, concrete, valuable underlying asset. ‘Good Faith’, ‘Hope’ and ‘Trust’ have proven to be very poor investment strategies.

‘Patient in Richmond’ is IMO quite correct to ask, “Why would anybody buy something that’s not there?”

#98 2CntsCdn on 08.22.14 at 12:12 am

@#3 Piano_Man87:
“Why isn’t the mainstream media picking this up? It seems like a very important story.”

Because stories like this are bad for the mainstream media business. Gotta keep the lie going as long as possible. Help keep the ads humming and public feeling financially OK (even though they are the opposite). Helping accelerate a RE industry stumble and a subsequent RE caused dent in the economy won’t help sell mainstream media adds. A lot more thought goes into what and when things get reported now than the old days. Business first. Not reporting everything you know isn’t really lying : ) Or is it?

#99 Blacksheep on 08.22.14 at 12:16 am

A Fool and his money…

#100 Steve on 08.22.14 at 12:28 am

If you put baking soda in a ketchup bottle it will blow up all over the kitchen once someone finally shakes it. (Not a metaphor, just thought you should know that)

#101 Nomad on 08.22.14 at 12:48 am

At last, real-estate news I can point to that shows you CAN get burnt.

Meanwhile, office space vacancy rate rose to 9.2% in the last 12 months:

http://www.advisor.ca/news/economic/canadas-changing-commercial-real-estate-market-161241

#102 Albert on 08.22.14 at 1:14 am

I just check Syria real estate,
this apartment is for sale for (USD 850,000)
I think Vancouver is still very cheap now in the world…..

http://www.4321property.com/syria/ad64286/

#103 Harry Wilson on 08.22.14 at 1:25 am

The level of compassion among today’s commenters has inspired me. The next time I see a guy lying on the sidewalk twitching from a heart attack, and giving a crap might inconvenience me, I’ll simply tell him “I don’t feel sorry for you at all; you should have exercised more”.

I feel better about myself already.

——————–

P.S. Mr. Turner, I hope you sent an email to Erin of the Erinomics post (July 29th), inviting her input on this issue. I’d love to hear it.

#104 Tony on 08.22.14 at 1:37 am

Re: #59 dienekes on 08.21.14 at 7:49 pm

That would be all of Markham Ontario where nothing is built only presold first.

#105 Here we go again on 08.22.14 at 3:14 am

Lawyer error so Law society of Ontario should cover. Not quite like Wirick case because Wirick made more than one “mistake” with a number of properties for his client/builder. BC lawyers now have to pay $15 trust administration fee for all files when trust deposit is received. This is to recover the big payout law society had to make to Wirick’s victims.

#106 bigrider on 08.22.14 at 6:41 am

That’s right, you won’t hear about any of this fraud in the media ,that has affected 200 or so people.

However, in the few instances in Canada when someone posing as a financial advisor has committed similar fraud on smaller scale ,the media trumpets it for months and months.

No question the attitudes and standards are remarkably different between the two industries.

#107 Steve French on 08.22.14 at 7:09 am

Smoking Man I’ll buy the book.

You could publish it in installments on Sir Garths a Lot’s blog.

#108 Steve French on 08.22.14 at 7:15 am

#62 Smoking Man that’s pure unadulterated poetry!

I could listen to that all day.

#109 Steve French on 08.22.14 at 7:18 am

ps:

Does anyone here actually read the posts from “Victoria Real Estate Blogger” ?

What a windbag.

#110 Ret on 08.22.14 at 8:40 am

If Tarion only covers $20,000, why would your lawyer approve an offer that has you handing over a down payment of more than that before close?

#103- I have compassion for the needy, not the greedy.

#111 Daisy Mae on 08.22.14 at 8:59 am

#23 Ford Prefect: “… the release of trust funds usually only occurs after all conditions are checked and double checked. Not to sound sanctimonious but trust funds are sacred. To say that they were released in error just does not cut it.”

******************

I agree. Lawyers would never make this type of ‘mistake’.

#112 Londoner on 08.22.14 at 9:10 am

#73 Kenchie

Cheers for your thoughts.

Just wanted to say that the BoC raised rates in 2010 because, economically (GDP and employment), Canada was doing well relative to it’s peers and everyone thought the global recovery would be quick. Of course things didn’t quite turn out that way. Then in 2011 the BoC joined other central banks in taking coordinated action.

I would still like to see a response from Garth.

#113 crowdedelevatorfartz on 08.22.14 at 9:16 am

@#81 Picasso
Nah, thats no fun !
I had a neighbour who worked 7 days/week all hours. His house alarm used to go off day and night.
One weekend he was gone for 2 days and his alarm went off constantly. Cops showed up and left tickets. Fire dept showed up and left notices.
Alarm was still going off for 5 minutes, resetting, 10 mins later alarm for 5 minutes. ….. ALL WEEKEND LONG. Rather than break into his house and turn the power off or pull the meter to his house I decided to leave a note……..
So, I took a large brick and wrapped a note around it that said,
” ALL WEEKEND. Your house alarm has been going off all weekend. This isnt the 1st time and you have been spoken to before. Fix this alarm or the next time this note will be delivered THROUGH your living room window.”
Monday morning the alram company was there for several hours.
No more problem.
Inconsiderate assholes have to be spoken to in a language they understand.
“Pig” latin seems to work.

I left it on his front doorstep.

#114 crowdedelevatorfartz on 08.22.14 at 9:25 am

@#108, 109 SteveO
108 – I’ll admit smoking man is amusing, but “pure poetry”?

109 – I read V.R.E.B. faithfully because I live on the west coast and I find his real estate info informative.
If you dont want to read it. Skip over it. Just be glad he isnt as “verbose” as Smoking Man.
p.s.( verbose is a big word meaning “wind bag”)

#115 Holy Crap Wheres The Tylenol on 08.22.14 at 10:14 am

#96 Smoking Man on 08.21.14 at 11:36 pm
I finally finished reading old man in the sea by hemming way.
I sucks…. I’m so much better…
Hunter S Thomson he stayed within expanded boundaries..
Did he have any characters that loved to have sex with porcupines… Ha… I own this.
I know my book will not be a best seller.. But hell I hate people anyway.
A small cult of 27 is a win… Plus I look like such an idiot speaking to large crowds…
_____________________________________________
Santiago chastised himself for going “out too far,” and for sacrificing his great and worthy opponent. Great book too bad you didn’t enjoy it. Here is a must read that is more suited for you!
The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge by Carlos Castaneda! I garantee you would like this book. If not then just listen to this!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJLLiWTUKPo
_____________________________________________

#116 Londoner on 08.22.14 at 10:17 am

“…the degree of slack must be based on a wide range of variables and will require difficult judgments about the cyclical and structural influences in the labor market” – Yellen

This sounds an awful lot like what Carney was saying last week :)

#117 Holy Crap Wheres The Tylenol on 08.22.14 at 10:23 am

Centrium buyers should have done more homework as well. I dealt with the Russians once in a purchase of some equipment. I was very careful as one of my business associates was once burned by them. He had a a container of parts come in from Russia which he had paid for upfront. It was a container of rocks! No recourse at all. Try dealing with a foreign countries legal system, or should I say lack of a legal system. Corruption is rampant everywhere, Caveat emptor!

#118 rosie "moving forward" in the knowledge that, "this won't end well" on 08.22.14 at 10:38 am

The unconcealed glee some here have shown at the plight of these condo purchasers is not remarkable. A segment of society lives in envy of others. These purchasers may or may not have been speculators. That is besides the point. The public trust was breached. This article on pensions has a similar plot line. The comments mirror the sentiment of some on this blog.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/workers-not-to-blame-for-quebec-pension-problem-don-pittis-1.2742698

#119 Son of Ponzi on 08.22.14 at 10:57 am

Chinese buyers are driving high end RE in Vancouver:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/housing/vancouver-housing-data-reveals-chinese-connection/article20164662/

What a crock. The story says: “Macdonald Realty Ltd., which has over 1,000 agents and staff in B.C., said 33.5 per cent of the 531 single family homes sold by its Vancouver offices in 2013 went to people who the company said were a mix of recent immigrants and Canadian citizens.” They are called “Canadians.” — Garth

#120 45north on 08.22.14 at 11:05 am

Piccaso : After getting in my passenger door and crawling over the console , I opened my drivers door so friggen hard and banged him that I left a 12″ long 1/2″ wide scrape on his shiny new raised pickup.

so while there was no damage to either vehicle when you walked up, there was when you left.

you cannot spell either:

Picasso
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Picasso

#121 Son of Ponzi on 08.22.14 at 11:10 am

#116
“…the degree of slack must be based on a wide range of variables and will require difficult judgments about the cyclical and structural influences in the labor market” – Yellen

This sounds an awful lot like what Carney was saying last week :)
—————–
These bullshitters should be exposed for what they are:
BULLSHITTERS.

#122 MIKETHEENGINEER on 08.22.14 at 11:11 am

Garth et al:

Just like you have been saying Garth…more confirmation.

Quote from Celente:

“So when you look at the real world, and put aside the stock market surging and the constant lies and propaganda coming out of the mainstream media, we are seeing a great deal of hardship and suffering going on.”

Quote from Celente:

http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2014/8/21_Celente_-_Email_Exposes_Scary_Economic_Collapse_In_The_US.html

#123 Hot Albertan Money on 08.22.14 at 11:12 am

Have one of these in Ottawa too. They haven’t split with anyone’s cash yet, but it’s a downtown location that’s on it 2nd re-branding and it’s still just a hole in the ground

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/empty-condo-lot-in-downtown-ottawa-worries-residents-1.2053525

#124 broadway skytrain on 08.22.14 at 11:18 am

Does anyone here actually read the posts from “Victoria Real Estate Blogger” ?

What a windbag.
—————————–
the only posts i can skip every time without worry about missing anything new, useful, or entertaining

just hit page down when u see her name:)

#125 garth for prime minister on 08.22.14 at 11:27 am

Garth, Just wanted to thank you for this pathetic blog. Though I only agree with you 70%, you alway make me think.

#126 Setting the Record Straight on 08.22.14 at 11:32 am

Interesting that people believe central bankers should influence /set interest rates to improve the functioning of the economy. Interest rates are a price, a very important price. Setting interest rates is a form of central planning. If you can do this, the setting the price of oranges should be a no brainer.

#127 Bob dog on 08.22.14 at 11:42 am

This really has brightened my morning. Thank you for sharing. A great lesson for speculators profiting from the plunging standard of living in ca.

And when you lose control, you’ll reap the harvest you have sown.

#128 angela on 08.22.14 at 12:03 pm

I read the whole chat forum thread re the history of the building. It strikes me in hindsight that it was sketchy. Investpr commitment agreements being signed and a $5000 deposit and them when the agreements of purchase and sale started to be submotted they raised the pricea and wouldn’t honour the commitment agreements. And taking away parking or storage or something from smallee units. Sounded very fluid from the start. Strikes me as funny that people call themselves investors, charge into an agreement that is legally binding on them, probably without reading it, them bitch that they have to hire a lawyer to get their money back. Granted, the lawyer in this case was shady, but generally they cansave you money…like by doing due dilligence that you are too ignorant, cheap, or lazy to do yourself. Amazing some buyers totally clueless who they made a cheque out to in the first place, too. Just hand your money over, put it in cruise control and take a na? “I vestors” need to get I volved and educated in their affairs, not bitch and complain that the government needs to help them. Why? Theymake laws. You should learn them and know your rights. And ask questions. Early.

#129 Bottoms_Up on 08.22.14 at 12:03 pm

#50 Piccaso on 08.21.14 at 7:28 pm
————————————–
You’re an A-hole.

Could have been someone in a rush to buy diapers, or immodium. Could have been just a poor driver with no malintent. Could have been a teenager that just got their license with trusting parents letting them take the new truck out for the first time.

You are a sick individual.

#130 Mister Obvious on 08.22.14 at 12:06 pm

#97 JimH

Thanks for the education in derivatives trading. Perhaps I spoke hastily. That’s not sarcasm, I mean it.

But I could argue that even a completed condominium is ‘not really there’. Real Estate gets its name from the idea that the ‘land’ one buys is manifest in the physical world. Its dirt you can sink a shovel into and has your specific name on the title. Barring continental drift and earthquakes, it remains in place.

A future condominium is in fact a cubic volume of space located in a column of air above a plot of communally owned land. That is essentially what it continues to be even when and future improvements are competed (such as condominium tower).

The moment strata titling enters the equation, the estate is no longer ‘real’ in the traditional sense but in the practical sense as well.

What the condominium buyer’s deposit really buys is form of promise, whether bricks and mortar are existent or not. That goes a long way toward explaining why people might purchase something that is not there.

Every time you buy something online it begins as an image on a screen. It’s not there. Not yet. If everything goes well it will manliest itself off a FedEx truck in the future. If not, you may be out of luck.

If all you ordered was a new putter its not such a huge risk. If its a concrete enclosure 25 stories up that never comes to fruition, that might hurt a little more.

#131 Flawed on 08.22.14 at 12:11 pm

Bitcoin is eGold. It will not “win”. It will not “lose” either. Your analogy fails miserably, not least because central banks control what is and what is not valid tender and because they do not control bitcoins, bitcoins will never become legal tender locally – you know, where people actually live.

***********************************

No your knowledge of “money” fails miserably. Gold is a commodity it is not money. The definition of money is something that can be used an intermediary that is trusted by people for the exchange of goods and services.

Also

The value of money is NOT backed by a country or gold or oil or labor its CONFIDENCE. And the confidence of corruptible hierarchical sovereign money is falling fast while everyday hundreds and hundreds of companies are taking bitcoin for payment. Why? Simple. Bitcoin is a decentralized system run by people not greedy govt and/or corporations. Full stop.

#132 Chet Sanders on 08.22.14 at 12:14 pm

Send in the Expendables, before they start phoning it in.

#133 DM in C on 08.22.14 at 12:14 pm

“the only posts i can skip every time without worry about missing anything new, useful, or entertaining”

Add Smoking Man and DA to the list and you save tons of time on the comments section.

#134 Mixed Bag on 08.22.14 at 1:03 pm

Some harsh thoughts here towards the people who lost their deposits.

When so many new home sales are pre-builds that have gone through to completion, people figure there is some sort of oversight happening, that it’s safe to buy pre-build.

For you critics out there, tell us, what checklist should be followed when venturing into the pre-build market?

I agree that it’s quite different buying pre-build, one is herded into the sales centre without representation, that whole process stinks. Yet the expectation has been set that the buyer does get his house or condo. The expectation is that there is some oversight going on.

Not to sound like SM, people have been raised through our system to think that life in Canada is fair, I remember thinking that way. As Garth says above “If you buy a condo in a pre-construction attack of hormonal delirium, you’re taking a big chance.” When I was younger and looking at pre-builds, I didn’t know this. Now I remember a relative’s father-in-law telling us Canada is far more corrupt than the formerly communist country he’s from, and articles like this make me think he’s right. The difference being, in his old country the corruption is out in the open, here you’re taught life is fair and are brainwashed to be blind to the corruption, what a great scam!

Personally I think there was some collusion going on with the lawyer and the builder, just my guess. But if not, you’d think there would be enough checks in place to prevent this sort of incompetency.

#135 Renter's Revenge! on 08.22.14 at 1:07 pm

Does anyone here actually read the posts from “Victoria Real Estate Blogger” ?

What a windbag.

————————————–

Personally, I’m really grateful that they’re doing this work and posting the information online, because I’m thinking of retiring in Victoria or somewhere close one day. However, I don’t normally read the posts because they’re too long (and, let’s be honest, boring). Ideally they would start their own blog and post a link instead so the information will be easier to find in the future. Surely this would be acceptable to Our Lord, Garth Turner. It could even be the first item in his blogroll that he’ll start one day *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*

#136 miketheengineer on 08.22.14 at 1:24 pm

Garth:

Got me thinking today, your article. And I got to wonder…things in Canada are still relatively o.k., the economy still puttering along. And I thought about the 1980’s and the stories about builders going bankrupt and leaving people with 1/2 built homes, or no home, etc. My relatives got burned at this time.

I fully expect to see more of this….builders going bankrupt, rather than finish the project at loss.

It breaks my heart when I hear people taking a loss. A lot of those people, just wanted a home, put their trust in the system etc…and are now screwed by some potentially corrupt people.

My mother has a saying, what goes around comes around, and never, ever do something to intentionally hurt someone, because it will come around and bite you, in a way, you never even dreamed of.

These builders/lawyers, absconded with the deposits. They will have 200 plus people really pissed off to deal with. Good luck to those people. I hope they get their money back.

#137 jess on 08.22.14 at 1:34 pm

Statement of Commissioner Kara M. Stein

Cross-Border derivatives trading and Money Market Funds

http://www.sec.gov/News/Speech/Detail/Speech/1370542172069#.U_d69KPhtbK

http://www.sec.gov/News/Speech/Detail/Speech/1370542347012#.U_d8-aPhtbK

http://www.sec.gov/News/Page/List/Page/1356125649569

#138 TurnerNation on 08.22.14 at 1:35 pm

Smoking man’s new book:

The 7 Habits of Highly (D)Effective Blog Dogs.

#139 Sheane Wallace on 08.22.14 at 1:49 pm

#116Londoner

They read the same script.

‘Slack in the labour’ market, blah blah blah. Unknown impact on the labour market from the Great depression blah blah blah

Yellen is at least academic while Carney is a completely incompetent moron (actually an actor) who does not understands anything and does nothing except contusing people with his contradicting and fogy statements.
UK would be much better by not having central banker at all.

#140 Sheane Wallace on 08.22.14 at 1:52 pm

#121 Son of Ponzi

these bullshitters are very good at stealing other peoples money with their so called zirp/nirp policies.

Scam and treason of highest degree.

#141 OMG on 08.22.14 at 2:02 pm

#138 TurnerNation on 08.22.14 at 1:35 pm
Smoking man’s new book:
The 7 Habits of Highly (D)Effective Blog Dogs.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

1 Drink
2 Drink Heavily
3 Drink even more
4 Drink until you have to pee
5 Drink while peeing
6 Drink until you just about pass-out
7 Go to Seneca Casino and start blogging after completing above six prior instruction sets!

Repeat above every week!

#142 Terry on 08.22.14 at 2:17 pm

Hi Garth

No need to publish this but am wondering if you have yet to run into Herman Daly’s latest post on “Steady State Economics” or “Sustainable Economics”.

One simply cannot focus on the profits and ignore the true costs of making these profits.

I believe that it is important to identify the economic freeloaders who reap profit and externalize their costs that the public or taxpayer then pays for.

All the Best

Terry

http://steadystate.org/giant-mats-of-green-slime-in-lake-erie-signal-a-need-for-new-economic-approaches-to-pollution/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+DalyNews+%28The+Daly+News%29

#143 Vancouvermill on 08.22.14 at 2:41 pm

Fresh globeandmail Article on HAM and vancouver. I think people are starting to come to grips and realize van isn’t Halifax and perhaps the sky could be the

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/housing/vancouver-housing-data-reveals-chinese-connection/article20164662/?service=mobile

The article says: “Macdonald Realty Ltd., which has over 1,000 agents and staff in B.C., said 33.5 per cent of the 531 single family homes sold by its Vancouver offices in 2013 went to people who the company said were a mix of recent immigrants and Canadian citizens.” What HAM? — Garth

#144 Nemesis on 08.22.14 at 2:50 pm

#”AndYetItMoves”

…”At the same time, Mr. Scarrow and Macdonald are so bullish on the potential for Chinese investment that he is spearheading the company’s efforts to open an office in China. “While there is very little data about foreign investors in Vancouver real estate, our own internal data is enough for us to commit to investing in a representative office in Shanghai,” said Mr. Scarrow, whose mother Lynn Hsu, who came from Taiwan in 1979, is the majority owner and president of Macdonald.”…

#145 Suede on 08.22.14 at 2:57 pm

Shawn,

RBC tidy profit and dividend increase today. Hope it’s a cornerstone of your portfolio.

Dummies get paid 1.5% for a GIC from them

RBC gets paid and laid by lending it out to me at 3.19% for my mortgage.

And since i’m not only a member, but an owner, they’re paying my about 4.6% after dividend credit and RY keeps chugging along higher since fall 2011 with their profit party.

“And if you don’t know, now you know”
-B.I.G

#146 Herb on 08.22.14 at 3:02 pm

#134 Mixed Bag,

lawyers don’t make $12 M mistakes with trust accounts. The odd one converts or absconds with money from client trust accounts, but lawyers don’t release such amounts “in error”.

The real question is how the lawyer was left holding the empty bag. I don’t think that winding up culpable and liable was what she had mind.

#147 Entrepreneur on 08.22.14 at 3:05 pm

I smell more then one rat in the article above. That was a warning for everyone, be careful who you trust with your money! Just because everyone is doing does not mean it is safe, herd mentallity.

I like reading “Victoria Real Estate Update.” It gives me hope. I would like Canada to return to normal; see young people have dreams again, the correct way. I read the whole blog and find it informative.

By the way the blog is spot on with the real estate going down. Real estate is going down, down here too but would not notice if not keeping track of facts & figures. The lure of the carrot, low interest rate & the real estate con song is keeping this show going.

#148 Shawn on 08.22.14 at 3:17 pm

Economic Freeloaders?

Terry at 142 says:

I believe that it is important to identify the economic freeloaders who reap profit and externalize their costs that the public or taxpayer then pays for.

*******************************************
As a general rule, should investors identify these so that they can buy shares and reap profit?

Important for whom to identify them? Investors or the public and taxpayers?

#149 devore on 08.22.14 at 3:17 pm

#142 Terry

One simply cannot focus on the profits and ignore the true costs of making these profits.

Of course one can. If someone else is willing to accept the costs, why should you worry about them? They’re their costs.

I believe that it is important to identify the economic freeloaders who reap profit and externalize their costs that the public or taxpayer then pays for.

Freeloaders? If someone elects to pay your costs, and refuses to charge you for anything, how are you a freeloader? They’re paying your costs, because they believe you’re providing sufficient value to justify it. If that is not the case, they would stick you with the bill.

It’s never been any secret things are being dumped into lakes and rivers. It’s not like the effects of these things haven’t been known for decades.

What you’re seeing is Tragedy of the Commons in action. When everyone (government) owns something, no one owns it. No one is responsible for it. If someone was responsible for this resource, they would never put up with this.

#150 Blacksheep on 08.22.14 at 3:23 pm

Flawed # 131,

“The value of money is NOT backed by a country or gold or oil or labour its CONFIDENCE. And the confidence of corruptible hierarchical sovereign money is falling fast while everyday”
————————————————-
The ability to TAX creates DEMAND for $’s so that you, I, and every other canadian schmuck MUST acquire and pay 40% of our income in said $, annually. The ledger must be cleared to maintain demand. This exercise is all about perception.

These companies accepting Bitcoin for the sale of goods and services will be forced to exchange said Bitcoins for sovereign $ at some point, in order to clear THEIR tax liabilities also.

I agree, that alternate mediums of exchange (Bitcoin) are here to stay and will continue to gain traction, but there is no way in hell, a sovereign will relinquish control of the metaphorical printing press, short of a collapse in society.

#151 Victoria Real Estate Update on 08.22.14 at 3:26 pm

#124 broadway skytrain

“Does anyone here actually read the posts from “Victoria Real Estate Blogger” ?

What a windbag.”
—————————–
“the only posts i can skip every time without worry about missing anything new, useful, or entertaining

just hit page down when u see her name:)”

I’ve posted comments on Garth’s blog exactly twice in the last month. It’s interesting that I’ve got your attention, despite the fact that I post a comment on Garth’s blog only three times per month, on average.

The most interesting line in your comment was “just hit page down when u see her name:)”. It has probably been at last a year and a half since I mentioned any such personal information on Garth’s blog. Since I started posting comments, several comments of this sort have been directed at me, usually under different names, of course. I understand that not everyone is happy with Victoria’s significant price decline and extremely slow sales. Not everyone likes to read information about Victoria’s housing market that may reveal what is actually going on, instead of the cherry-picked, misleading stats that may be reported by the mainstream media.

Each one of my posts presents new information about Victoria’s housing market.

In yesterday’s post, for example, the following information was new:

* the two listings (Oceanspray and Olive Street) that have been sitting on the market at asking prices well below assessed values

* facts about price-to-rent ratio

* 6 houses in Palm Bay, Florida that are available for a fifth of the cost of a similar house in Victoria.

Note that Palm Bay’s winter weather is warm and sunny. In comparison, Victoria’s winter weather is cold and wet. Why would anyone buy a vacation property in Victoria when properties are available in US cities with warm, sunny winter weather at a fraction of the cost of a similar Victoria property?

I have received plenty of comments indicating that some readers of this blog appreciate the information presented in my comments.

All of my comments contain new and old information. Sometimes old information is used to properly present new information.

House salespeople and real estate boards have been repeating the same things for decades, for example, “it’s always a good time to buy”, etc. This is annoying to a lot of people.

Those who enjoy reading my comments can look forward to more in the future.

#152 Flawed on 08.22.14 at 3:41 pm

#139 Sheane Wallace on 08.22.14 at 1:49 pm
#116Londoner

They read the same script.

‘Slack in the labour’ market, blah blah blah. Unknown impact on the labour market from the Great depression blah blah blah

Yellen is at least academic while Carney is a completely incompetent moron (actually an actor) who does not understands anything and does nothing except contusing people with his contradicting and fogy statements.
UK would be much better by not having central banker at all.

*****************************

Enter bitcoin.

Just got back from S.America. They know way more about bitcoin down there than the “nanny state lovers” here and it’s growing fast. Keep on paying yer fat useless taxes suckers. They don’t have “USELESS” fines and fees and levies etc etc etc sucking up all yer money down there like here. And NO not EVERYWHERE is like Venezuela or PARTS of Brazil before the cherry pickers chime in…..Ecuador, Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay and most of Brazil are very safe. Safer than many parts of the USA for sure……

#153 Funny that on 08.22.14 at 3:54 pm

#151 Victoria Real Estate Update on 08.22.14 at 3:26 pm
* 6 houses in Palm Bay, Florida that are available for a fifth of the cost of a similar house in Victoria.

Note that Palm Bay’s winter weather is warm and sunny. In comparison, Victoria’s winter weather is cold and wet. Why would anyone buy a vacation property in Victoria when properties are available in US cities with warm, sunny winter weather at a fraction of the cost of a similar Victoria property?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And yet you still live in Victoria. The irony.

#154 Boogey man Bob on 08.22.14 at 4:07 pm

More science denial eh?

http://www.washington.edu/news/2014/08/21/cause-of-global-warming-hiatus-found-deep-in-the-atlantic-ocean/

Anther major university citing reasons why ‘global warming—climate change’ is just bunk.

The ‘Climate Change’ argument was invented 34 years ago when western progressives wanted to find a way to fund the popular ‘idea of the day’….which was ‘sustainable development’ . This was how they would slide the wealth of the west over to the east in order to stabilize all economies and bring everyone onto the same level economically….noble idea…on paper.

But how would they fund it?…Et voila…..tax on carbon…….seemed easy enough ….and the birth of ‘the impending climate disaster model’.

Sadly Canada ( under Trudeau) was the second signatory to this disastrous attack on western economies. Did he just feel guilty because his father was a coal baron? We’ll never know.

If you can’t follow the dots backwards and read the breadcrumbs on this climate scam….you’re just not trying…or thinking.

#155 Vancouvermill on 08.22.14 at 4:14 pm

Also more long whinded and contradicting fed speech, how many times can you go around the bush instead of just saying……we are not there yet. All you hawks go back inside your basement and pray to your Garth turner shrines

#156 Flawed on 08.22.14 at 4:32 pm

#150 Blacksheep on 08.22.14 at 3:23 pm
Flawed # 131,

“The value of money is NOT backed by a country or gold or oil or labour its CONFIDENCE. And the confidence of corruptible hierarchical sovereign money is falling fast while everyday”
————————————————-
The ability to TAX creates DEMAND for $’s so that you, I, and every other canadian schmuck MUST acquire and pay 40% of our income in said $, annually. The ledger must be cleared to maintain demand. This exercise is all about perception.

These companies accepting Bitcoin for the sale of goods and services will be forced to exchange said Bitcoins for sovereign $ at some point, in order to clear THEIR tax liabilities also.

I agree, that alternate mediums of exchange (Bitcoin) are here to stay and will continue to gain traction, but there is no way in hell, a sovereign will relinquish control of the metaphorical printing press, short of a collapse in society.

*******************************

First of all please don’t compare me to an Israeli (schmuck). Hoser, beaver tail anything else Cdn np :-)

Second you sound like these guys:

Computers
There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in their home.
– Ken Olson, President of Digital Corporation, 1977
The Internet will catastrophically collapse in 1996.’
– Robert Metcalfe, internet inventor
Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.
– Popular Mechanics, 1949
We have reached the limits of what is possible with computers.
– John Von Neumann, 1949
I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.
– Thomas J. Watson Snr., IBM Chairman, 1943

The prediction: Websites will never replace newspapers. – Newsweek, 1995
Fifteen years before plunging ad revenues forced its owners to sell Newsweek for $1, the magazine published an anti-Web screed from cybersecurity expert, astronomer and author Clifford Stoll. He called the Web “a wasteland of unfiltered data”, and complained that reliable voices were being drowned out by the rabble.
“The truth is no online database will replace your daily newspaper,” he wrote.
“Nicholas Negroponte, director of the MIT Media Lab, predicts that we’ll soon buy books and newspapers straight over the Internet,” Stoll added. “Uh, sure.”
The reality: You know how this one turned out. You’re reading this online, right?
Related: The Deep Web you don’t know about
The prediction: The Internet… will explode? – Robert Metcalfe, 1995
Robert Metcalfe is no techno-phobe — he’s actually a highly regarded engineer who was one of the inventors of Ethernet networking technology. But Metcalfe worried that mass adoption of the Web would overload it. As more and more people connected, Metcalfe said the Internet would “go spectacularly supernova and in 1996 catastrophically collapse.”
The reality: It may seem like the Internet has exploded when Gmail, Facebook or Twitter has a service outage for a whopping half hour. But as we said earlier, you’re reading this online, right?
Infographic: What is the Deep Web?
The prediction: The Web means the end of Big Brother. – Columbia Journalism Review, 1995
Lawyer and researcher Peter Huber was a digital optimist. The increasing ease of communication in the Internet era, he predicted, would make it impossible for governments or corporations to control the flow of information.
“Orwell’s world, the world of computer and communications monopolies, will not be seen again in our lifetime,” Huber wrote. “The loose ends and the forgotten comers have taken over.”
The reality: Anyone who’s been reading the news this past year knows how far off this one was. Tech giants like Google (GOOG) and Facebook (FB) have vast troves of data on their users, and former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden has revealed government spying programs that can track people around the world wherever they go online.
The prediction: No one will buy anything over the Web. – Newsweek, 1995
We return to Stoll for this last one. He managed to get a staggering amount wrong in just a few hundred words. He also scoffed at the idea of “virtual communities”, doubted the Web could have practical applications for government, and wondered how anyone could get any research done in the maze of online information.
But with regards to retail, he thought the lack of human contact would doom the Web as a sales medium. The evidence? His local mall “does more business in an afternoon than the entire Internet handles in a month.”
“Even if there were a trustworthy way to send money over the Internet—which there isn’t—the network is missing a most essential ingredient of capitalism: salespeople,” he wrote.
The reality: In a word, Amazon (AMZN). In another word, Borders.

#157 Sheane Wallace on 08.22.14 at 4:35 pm

#150 Blacksheep

Zimbabwe and the Weimar republic had tax systems as well.

Demise of a currency is driven by different means: excessive supply, triggering misallocation of capital and malinvestment.
The eternal human desire to get something for nothing. States were invented to protect citizen’s rights not to loot them. When a state becomes a tool of oppression one should be free to walk out of the ‘contract’.
There is no doubt that in the future we will see structures outside of government control and in some cases working against the governments to protect its members. Mafia is one example, it thrives where there are no lows to protect the people.

#158 Sheane Wallace on 08.22.14 at 4:35 pm

laws

#159 Panhead on 08.22.14 at 4:45 pm

#151 Victoria Real Estate Update on 08.22.14 at 3:26 pm

Just spent a few days in Victoria as I live on the mainland. Beautiful place filled with seniors. Had a great time and enjoy your posts, looking forward to more. But oh the ferries …

#160 Shawn on 08.22.14 at 5:22 pm

RBC Profit///

Suede said:

Shawn,

RBC tidy profit and dividend increase today. Hope it’s a cornerstone of your portfolio.

******************************************
Thanks for thinking of me.

I don’t own that particular bank and can’t own ’em all. I run a very concentrated portfolio and for the past while my bank investments have been Wells Fargo and Bank of America.

Overall, my portfolio is up about 13% this year.

The Canadian banks have been fantastic investments over the long term. I have almost never owned any of the big ones but made strong gains with Canadian Western Bank over the years. Again, I cannot own them all. I concentrate.

#161 crowdedelevatorfartz on 08.22.14 at 5:28 pm

@#129 Bottoms Up
Or it could have been an extremely selfish person who sees nothing wrong with parking like an idiot with zero consideration of others…….
I’d say chances are……the driver was an inconsiderate ahole.
i I park too close to someone I move over or park in another stall if there’s not enough room. Common courtesy works wonders…..
But anyone parking like an idiot gets an “award” and 4 free tees! Go for it ! :0

#162 Victoria Real Estate Update on 08.22.14 at 5:28 pm

#153 Funny that

“#151 Victoria Real Estate Update on 08.22.14 at 3:26 pm
* 6 houses in Palm Bay, Florida that are available for a fifth of the cost of a similar house in Victoria.

Note that Palm Bay’s winter weather is warm and sunny. In comparison, Victoria’s winter weather is cold and wet. Why would anyone buy a vacation property in Victoria when properties are available in US cities with warm, sunny winter weather at a fraction of the cost of a similar Victoria property?”

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

“And yet you still live in Victoria. The irony.”

Do you have proof that I live in Victoria?

Each year thousands of Canadians buy vacation homes in warm US cities with the intention of spending some of the winter months there. The fact of the matter is that Victoria’s cold, wet winter weather (in comparison to the warm, sunny winter weather in the southern US) makes it undesirable as a winter vacation destination in comparison to many US destinations.

Florida or Victoria? There’s no comparison. Florida’s ocean water is warm, Victoria’s is cold all year. The weather alone makes the choice a no-brainer, it isn’t even necessary to mention the fact that a house costing $120 K in some beautiful Florida locations would cost 5 times as much in Victoria.

#163 Victoria Real Estate Update on 08.22.14 at 5:29 pm

#159 Panhead

“Just spent a few days in Victoria as I live on the mainland. Beautiful place filled with seniors. Had a great time and enjoy your posts, looking forward to more. But oh the ferries …”

I appreciate that.

#164 crowdedelevatorfartz on 08.22.14 at 6:02 pm

@#153 funny that
Hmmm
Living in Miami vs Victoria
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CCYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.city-data.com%2Fcrime%2Fcrime-Miami-Florida.html&ei=-7f3U6XiBILOiwL4iIG4BA&usg=AFQjCNHeCnFtr07niPL9of0vD39uamajHQ

A quick recap of the link
Murder rate in Miami is 3 times the US national average(600 murders in Miami in 2012)
Rapes 3 times the national average
There are currently 1340 sex offenders living in Miami.

Tough to find violent crime stats for Victoria which leads me to believe they arent a hotbed of violence.
Total murders in Canada for 2012 ……. 505.
Lowest level since 1966.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCMQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.statcan.gc.ca%2Fpub%2F85-002-x%2F2014001%2Farticle%2F14040-eng.htm&ei=I7v3U-jmKIzkoASdmIHgCQ&usg=AFQjCNEKz9hWMS9nI990eZDl7n8O4MFeSA

Perhaps thats why people prefer Victoria over Miami…..funny that eh wot?

#165 crowdedelevatorfartz on 08.22.14 at 6:20 pm

Hey!
Another reason to avoid moving to Florida! Lock up yer kitties!

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CGIQ1ScwCg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usatoday.com%2Ftech%2Fscience%2Fenvironment%2Fstory%2F2012-01-30%2Fpythons-florida-everglades%2F52893342%2F1&ei=ucH3U4bQLe_DiwKY9IHAAw&usg=AFQjCNF-qkJAIiFqvKA2tGWhi7c2-O2Gng

#166 So retro-seventies on 08.22.14 at 6:42 pm

#48 Victoria Real Estate Update

The last time I was excited to see an ASCII graph was when I saw “The Andromeda Strain”. I spent the rest of the summer learning how to program the same thing on my Commodore PET.

Since then, Lotus 1-2-3 and other more modern spreadsheet programs have been released (which allow charts of various type to be created and saved), so I hope that VREU joins the modern world soon and dazzles us with modern graphs and charts.

#167 Kenchie on 08.22.14 at 10:55 pm

#97 JimH on 08.21.14 at 11:49 pm

#46 Mister Obvious in response to
#14 Patient in Richmond who stated:
… “why would anybody buy something that’s not there?”
===================
Mister Obvious stated:
“It’s called ‘futures trading’ and it’s done all the time.
But usually by people who know what they’re doing and are prepared to take significant risk.
Not like in this particular case.”

——————————————————————-

JimH, thanks for pointing the differences out for those who aren’t familiar with derivatives.

I just wanted to add on that buying pre-construction condos is more similar to forward contracts than futures.

Futures are standardized and traded on exchanges that are essentially guaranteed (in practice) by clearinghouses.

Forward contracts, however, terms are negotiated between each parties and are subject to default more often. And they are “over-the-counter” and are not tracked by any regulator.

#168 Kenchie on 08.22.14 at 11:26 pm

#154 Boogey man Bob on 08.22.14 at 4:07 pm

Did you read this press release properly?

“Changes in Atlantic Ocean circulation historically meant roughly 30 warmer years followed by 30 cooler years. Now that it is happening on top of global warming, however, the trend looks more like a staircase.

This explanation implies that the current slowdown in global warming could last for another decade, or longer, and then rapid warming will return.”

“We are not talking about a normal situation because there are so many other things happening due to climate change.”

Sounds like they are acknowledging climate change… which completely contradicts your message. Lol

#169 50 cents on 08.23.14 at 12:00 pm

Hi Garth
Can you ban Son of Ponzi from your site?
He’s been race baiting at all the RE blogs and there’s a group of us trying to notify other blog owners about this Nazi….
Love greater fools BTW

#170 haha on 08.24.14 at 3:56 am

169 50 cents on 08.23.14 at 12:00 pm

Hi Garth
Can you ban Son of Ponzi from your site?
He’s been race baiting at all the RE blogs and there’s a group of us trying to notify other blog owners about this Nazi….
Love greater fools BTW
==========================
I always get a kick out of watching romper stomper
the scene when the Asian invasion gets their just revenge on the skin heads. We all know what happens next (in the coming years). They RULED !!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcHzd45kbx4

#171 Lary Lan on 08.24.14 at 10:19 am

A hotel at Yonge & Finch?!! That should have been a red flag that this thing was a sham.

#172 Nadine Lumley on 08.24.14 at 2:56 pm

China’s ghost cities and shopping malls – 14 million empty housing units in the U.S. while China may have up to 64 million empty apartments. GDP is only as good as the quality behind the financial numbers. China real estate bubble will have to burst one day.

http://youtu.be/rPILhiTJv7E

http://www.mybudget360.com/china-ghost-city-shopping-malls-vacant-units-china-real-estate-bubble-bigger-than-us-housing-bubble-speculation/

………………………

March 2013: In Ordos, a city of 1.5 million in Inner Mongolia, there sits a mostly vacant district that was built to house and service another one million people, complete with huge public squares and museums. In Dongguan, more than 2,500 km to the south, the sprawling New South China Mall opened in 2005 to host an expected 70,000 shoppers each day, but remains mostly empty. Other so-called “ghost cities” are strewn across China.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/03/24/the-scariest-housing-bubble/

….

#173 Siva on 08.24.14 at 5:07 pm

CP24 is covering it live