Failure to launch

Launch

She’s 58. He’s 62. The thing in the basement is 26.

“Steve’s a good kid,” mom says, “and he definitely tries to help around the house.” Dad sees it differently. “He contributes nothing, and expects a boatload. I’m giving him one more year.” So, next summer, Mars and Venus will clash up there on the main floor. I’m betting Steve stays.

One US study says adult children at home – about 23 million of them, up a staggering 18% in the last decade – are seriously holding back house sales. Household formation is down, because fewer twentysomethings get married these days, having extended adolescence and dependency. In fact, it’s estimated the crash and fallout of 08-9 has kept about 2.4 million of them from moving out, renting or buying.

And they like it. Seventy-eight per cent of the basement dwellers say they’re cool being at home. No news to Steve’s dad. “When I was his age I’d been working for five years and had a wife and a crappy house and no money. Not only am I paying for his food, I just bought his insurance and I pay for his car. It’s ridiculous.”

“But,” mom says, “how’s he ever going to get a good job without being able to drive to interviews? And he’s only been out of school a year. Why are we pushing?”

The conversation took place in my office some days ago, and degraded fast. It was supposed to be a session to review their retirement preparedness, but it ended up being all about Steve. No wonder. The little moocher is sucking off his parents’ net worth at one helluva clip. If it weren’t for him, there’d be a thousand more a month to invest, instead of seeing it go for food and car payments. Worse, they’d have sold the real estate by now, downsized into a condo and have at least $400,000 to invest. It’s money desperately needed, since their printing business is now marginal, and they have no pensions.

Without those funds, I told them, they’ll be in tough shape. Especially if they miss this window of opportunity to bail from that suburban house before the lights start going out in 905.

The latest federal stats (2011) paint an amazing picture. Almost 43% of all twentysomethings in Canada live with their parents. Over 63% of all guys 20 to 24 are still at home. A quarter of the moochers returned to the nest after initially leaving. And the problem of basement-dwellers seems most acute in Ontario.

Parents, despite their own financial messes, can’t say no.  A recent Environics survey found 43% allow their adult offspring to live at home rent-free. A third, like Steve’s dad, are paying for major purchases like cars and computers. And 20% are picking up their kids’ credit card payments – about the same number who told researchers they would “consider putting their own security in jeopardy to help out.”

They’re already doing a fine job of it.

Yeah, yeah, youth unemployment may be 14% today – double the national average – but the financial crisis brewing for millions of Boomer parents is massive. Over 70% don’t have corporate pensions to look forward to. Rock-bottom interest rates and investing ignorance have punished many. Household debt’s at a record level. More people are retiring with mortgages than at any time in history. RRSP contributions have cratered in the past decade. Wage gains are trailing inflation, so every year there’s less to put away. Life expectancy is shooting higher. And now the one asset everybody gambled on – real estate – is facing a decidedly troubled future.

It was the perfect Boomer storm, even before these wrinklies found out they have career children. For Steve’s parents, supporting him and his lifestyle is a burden they can scarcely meet. The odds the kid will pay them back once he finds work are zero. That’s about the same as his parents ever being frank and honest with their son about their finances. Steve will keep sucking. They’ll keep dodging.

When they left my office, Venus cared more about Steve than fate. Mars decided the fight wasn’t worth it. The choice they’ve made will swell their own risk far in excess of the amount it decreases their son’s. Financially, it’s indefensible. The kid should go. He’ll find a way to survive. A 62-year-old guy in a dying small business, not so much.

As for Steve, I’m sure he has no clue. Parents are eternal. They live on air. You take from them. They don’t mind.

In twenty years I wonder if he’ll look at his runaway taxes, and connect the dots.

231 comments ↓

#1 TurnerNation on 07.28.13 at 5:15 pm

So Money Road is out-of-print?

Maybe mine’s Ebay-able. But its interior flap is unredeemable, with this message:

“To Billy-Bob,

All the best with your
Hootenanny and crawdaddy endevorS. Garth”

#2 In the cold from Toronto on 07.28.13 at 5:20 pm

The only solution is a dramatic increase in taxes… For all.

#3 chickenlittle on 07.28.13 at 5:22 pm

What percentage of those stay at home boys are from Woodbridge? Just kidding..but not really.

I swear my generation is turning into the biggest bunch of losers ever.

One of them said to me (she was 27) ” Getting married at my age is like leaving a party at ten o’clock before it even starts.”

I got married at 22 and this was a dig at me so I said, “Well don’t wait too long because then you’ll be left with all the losers no one wants at last call.” She didn’t speak to me for the rest of the night.

Btw, I am still married and she is not, but she wants to be now. Good luck there.

#4 TnT on 07.28.13 at 5:30 pm

When I was a kid my Dad would put an X on a calendar date and make his statement well known. Have a job by the X or get out of the house. My siblings and I were never without a job. Getting my pen out now as my kids are getting close to working age :)

#5 piccaso1881 on 07.28.13 at 5:38 pm

#3 chickenlittle

I wonder how many are basement dwellers after the big D

#6 Donald Trump on 07.28.13 at 5:39 pm

#206 daystar on 07.28.13 at 4:32 pm

=================================

Oh oh…looks like you have taken more than 2 psychology classes.

Either that or Old Man wrote that post.

#7 MarcFromOttawa on 07.28.13 at 5:42 pm

If taxes go much higher in this socialist paradise I will move to Thailand or Vietnam and live with 7 concubines.

#8 HD on 07.28.13 at 5:44 pm

If at 26 he doesn’t have the brain power to fingure this out on his own, chances are that he’ll never really get it.

Best,

HD

#9 bo xilai on 07.28.13 at 5:48 pm

The kid should be shamed for sucking $$ from the parents. I started paying market (not token) rent in my final year of university and continue live at home and pay rent for another 5 years before I saved enough to buy my own place. The kid should get a grip of reality!

#10 Fzzzz on 07.28.13 at 5:57 pm

Great post….. unfortunately.

And “Career Children”, thats good! Very good!

#11 Angela on 07.28.13 at 5:58 pm

Chickenlittle, there is so much more to growing up than getting married. Seriously, learning to live by yourself and with roommates should be essential life experience before marriage. It might prevent countless divorces, by giving young adults time to figure out their shit and how to get along with others.

As for basement dwelling kids, awesome for you to stay out of debt. Obviously your parents are way less controlling than mine we’re. I was out at 17. No amount of poverty could ever convince me to relinquish my freedom (and sanity)

#12 Smartalox on 07.28.13 at 6:05 pm

If mom and dad sell the house and have $400 000 investment, they can move to a condo and pay junior’s rent for an apartment (probably a condo in the same building) from the proceeds – and have money to spare!

Moving junior to his own place, even while helping him with the rent, is a good compromise / first step to independence. It’ll teach him to fill his own fridge and do his own laundry, the first steps to self sufficiency.

And ditch the car: if you can’t afford rent, you can’t afford car payments. Buy a $1500 beater, and learn to fix it yourself. Or maybe mom and dad would enjoy a sweet new ride, after all, they’re paying for it!

#13 Mr. Frugal on 07.28.13 at 6:05 pm

There was a time in this country when swimming lessons consisted of having an uncle throw you off the end of the dock into the lake. The youth of today have a world of opportunities but they have to get up off the couch and do some work if they ever want to achieve anything. We parents need to give them an encouraging word and a good shove in the right direction. And then we need to stand back and watch them fall on their ass. And when they’ve done that, we need to pick them up and tell them to get back in there. That’s the job of a parent.

#14 White Rock Mom on 07.28.13 at 6:05 pm

Steve’s Dad needs to man up!
Steve needs to grow up!

Stop paying the car payments and insurance. Start changing rent and put the house up for sale.

#15 brainsail on 07.28.13 at 6:06 pm

My brother didn’t leave until he was 39. Now he has been willed the house because the poor guy has never owned a house and can only afford to rent. He and his wife were well educated (nursing and computer science) and twenty one years later can only get temporary jobs. I don’t get it.

#16 Fort Mac Flatlander on 07.28.13 at 6:10 pm

Good afternoon Garth and fellow Blog dogs,

It makes me utterly speechless with frustration (and a little rage) that people are unwilling to relocate to find work. How many of these 20 somethings took some BS McArts degree, deciding to wallow in their parents basement until something “in their field” opens up. SUCK IT UP! Take a trade! Move! Get a job!

Thanks for listening to the rant;

Fort Mac Flatlander

#17 Dean Mason on 07.28.13 at 6:12 pm

The condo idea is not as cost effective as people think.In 1992 the average condo fees were about $150 in Toronto a month and now they are about $450 a month.If they continue at that annual rate of increase of 5.38% like the last 21 years condo fees will be $1,350 a month.

This is a likely outcome and then you have property taxes,utilities,insurance etc.This means in 2034 owning a condo that has no mortgage will cost about $3,650 a month with condo fees,utilities,property taxes,insurance.Remember you have other living expenses of food,clothing,gas,car insurance,car payments,car repairs and maintenance,medical,internet,cable,telephone etc.

If they have $1,050,000 net after income taxes in 2034 earning 5.70% a year in annual income which is $60,000 gross before taxes.Even at a 15% income tax rate tax advantaged income they would be left with $51,000 versus $44,000 a year in condo related expenses.It’s close.

If they have any debts like a mortgage,credit cards,line of credit,car loans,home equity loan or line etc. then they will fall behind.

#18 Howe Street on 07.28.13 at 6:14 pm

Garth talks about the future value of Real Estate on This Week in Money:
http://talkdigitalnetwork.com/2013/07/this-week-in-money-94/

#19 Donald Trump on 07.28.13 at 6:14 pm

#200 someone on 07.28.13 at 3:19 pm

From previous post…

What people are not seeing is that even the phoney differences between political parties makes no difference.

In the US, the Republicans have been snookered by the Democrats…not that they weren’t using the same play book. The Republicans are realizing they have to go farther to the left to stand a chance of being elected.

However, as the saying goes, if voting actually mattered, it would be made illegal.

Back to my previous submission to “millenials”:

Lenin stated that all they needed was one generation to be indoctrinated

http://rense.com/general32/americ.htm

Communist Goals (1963) Congressional Record–Appendix, pp. A34-A35 January 10, 1963

EXAMPLES: (From List of 45)

4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.

15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.

16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers’ associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

18. Gain control of all student newspapers.

19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.

20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policy-making positions.

21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.

22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to “eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms.”

23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. “Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art.”

24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them “censorship” and a violation of free speech and free press.

25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as “normal, natural, healthy.”

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with “social” religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a “religious crutch.”

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of “separation of church and state.”

32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture–education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.

38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].

39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.

40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.

42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use ["]united force["] to solve economic, political or social problems.

===================================

People seem to think Communism is like Tianamen Square…soldiers and tanks in the streets. No, the Communists actually stated it would be subversion from within.

Its Big Brother, the Nanny State, and creating divisions within races and genders. When the time is ripe, a major collapse happens by design , people are in shock and then beg Gov’t to “help them”.

So, many” millenials” are that generation now walking up to the communistic agenda.

Game Over ? .

#20 FTP - First Time Poster on 07.28.13 at 6:20 pm

You’re assuming he’ll be working to pay taxes and contribute. Gen Y was created by a generation of parents who wanted to bubble wrap their children and create a no-failure, sterile utopia for their children. I don’t feel sorry for any of these parents who have spent the last two decades coddling their precious children into believing they would never fail and were truly special. Now they’re misguided parenting is coming home to roost – literally.

#21 reality_check on 07.28.13 at 6:21 pm

Obviously a big part of the problem is the extreme affordability of housing and the cost and waiting lists for higher education.
Nothing like the boomer parents who’s houses were cheap and education ultra accessible and cheap. Not to mention boomers not having to compete with foreign students for placement ( as foreign student fees are double and triple) and the public colleges and universities first priority these days is to make money.
This is classic blow-back for the boomer parents and their generation.

#22 reality_check on 07.28.13 at 6:23 pm

typo: nu-affordability of housing

#23 Old Man on 07.28.13 at 6:24 pm

I just gave Rogers a blast as read a letter that they want more money, and said no way; not one red cent more. I am mad and will not take being conned anymore for annual increases and gave them a nasty blast on the phone. It is one thing that my system reads a poor connect all the time, and another that my TV is messed up. We all must fight the corporations who want more and more, and stand up for a fair deal, as there are other options.

#24 BURN on 07.28.13 at 6:24 pm

This stupid housing markets needs to CRASH hard soon, deflate everything to normal. Then consumers can afford to save and spend money for a healthy economy. If it doesn’t crash soon it will only drag more taxpayers down with it and recovery will be prolonged.

#25 Waterloo Resident on 07.28.13 at 6:26 pm

Quote: “Household formation is down, because fewer twentysomethings get married these days.”

Want to know why marriage is down these days:

1 – no jobs, or no good paying jobs.
2 – women with ‘entitlement mentality’ problems.
3 – divorce laws and family courts that are scaring the crap out of men who have even half a brain to see what’s going on.

If you don’t understand what I’m talking about, then watch this video and this guy explains everything about why guys should go get their head examined if they plan to get married these days:

“Men, Math and marriage”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42sI2G4m5aU

———————-

Its funny; I tell the guys I meet how marriage is a nice warm feeling of happiness at first, but after the feeling of ‘LOVE’ is gone from the woman’s heart, things take a dramatic nosedive from there and that’s when the guy usually finds out just how screwed he really is.

When I talk to the younger guys they shake their head and don’t want to believe me, they say “Were you really marred, why would a woman want to marry a nut like you?” Meanwhile, when I talk to older guys, guys who have seen it all, and have friends who are currently getting divorced, they shake my hand and tell me I’ve got my head screwed on straight and that I should tell other younger guys my story to stop them from destroying their lives. Well, I do, but that’s not making any difference because the younger guys just are not listening. They are listening to their girlfriends though, the ones who say “don’t listen to that other guy, he’s crazy”. Well, let 10 to 15 years pass, and then if you are the 50% of men who get divorced and you are in family court and having your life destroyed, you will see just how crazy everything is, and you will see it with your own eyes.
———————-

My solution for families with adult children living in the basement: Make them pay at least SOME rent, so it won’t feel as if they are getting a free handout. Figure out what a renter renting a basement room would pay for the place, and then get the child to pay 10% of that amount. To me that sounds fair. Give the child 3 to 4 months to scrape up the money by lining up at the nearest ‘LABOUR READY’ employment agency at 5 AM in the morning, and they can easily earn a few hundred dollars each month that way.

The parents should not pay for the child’s food or for his other expenses, that would just be crazy as they have their own expenses to pay for too.

—————————

#26 JimH on 07.28.13 at 6:35 pm

#9 Shawn

Damn straight!

#27 Chickenlittle on 07.28.13 at 6:48 pm

#12 Angela:

Oh believe me! I know there is more to life than just getting married. I was just giving an example of the mentality I come across all the time.

In my line of work people who fail to reach certain milestones are considered “delayed” and assigned a resource teacher. You can’t do that to a 20 something who refuses to grow up. They actually celebrate their developmental delays now! Erikson is rolling in his grave as we speak.

(BTW: I believe that children grow and learn beautifully on their own. We do not need to show them how to learn. They do that on their own. It is arrogant to think that we need to show them how to learn, as if learning to walk, talk, and understand a language is a small task. I think that most children in school that have an IEP don’t actually need them. When they find a use for what they are learning, they will understand and want to learn.)

#28 Ret on 07.28.13 at 6:55 pm

I see lots of these home grown cellar dwellers. They can’t put a chain back on a bicycle and are confounded by the mechanical complexities of a screen door. Zero survival skills.

Time to man up Steve. Your parents are gold. Seek their guidance, not their limited resources. Make them proud of you before they are gone.

#29 Suede on 07.28.13 at 6:55 pm

Poor mom, she wants Steve to stay in the house forever. He’s her little boy. He still has his virginity too because “he doesn’t do those things.”

This mom sounds European immigrant from my experience.

Steve won’t be out for a while…

#30 NFN_NLN on 07.28.13 at 7:01 pm

Why is CPD going down while XIU is going up?

#31 TheCatFoodLady on 07.28.13 at 7:10 pm

Ah yes – the ‘Speshul Snowflake’ generation. When I met the Main Squeeze, I was a fairly new single mom of two boys, aged 14 & 11. He was a long time single dad to a 12 year old girl. I’d been a tough mom, he’d spoiled his daughter to death & couldn’t see it. In his mind, he was ‘making up’ for her not having a mother at home.

I’d been relatively hard nosed with my two – actions had consequences. One warning, then the consequence & believe me, they didn’t like what I picked! With my step daughter, nothing was ever her fault.

My oldest – has been working at least part time since 17. Served his country overseas, got a good degree in criminology & this fall, I will attend his RCMP Depot graduation, as will his step dad. He’s been very smart with his money – federal government pension, RRSP, ETFs, TFSA, researches everything he buys & has his life well in hand. My youngest, less useful degree but got into a full time job way out in left field for him. It pays his bills, he’s survived several rounds of reorganization & job cuts & will stick with it until he figures out what he wants to do in life. He’s 23 – self supporting & that’s what matters.

Then there’s my step daughter – Miss Entitlement writ large. She was our ‘basement dweller’. Up to her ears in debt – we bailed her out ONCE after she was diagnosed with a chronic & life changing illness. Had we known the real state of her financial affairs before we bailed her out, we’d have made different choices. Dad finally woke up – this is a girl who’ll take what she can get as long as she can.

She met a guy, (insert eye roll), they’ve moved in together & it seems to have been the boot in the butt she needed. She’s learned the world isn’t all about her, or we hope so. We refuse to listen to her whining about how HARD life is on a tiny income… we’ve managed for years.

It doesn’t help that her firends are all over their heads in debt & have no problem with it. Extra money doesn’t go to pay down debt but to buy something else. Her & the boyfriend who’s otherwise smart enough don’t get it. But… not longer our problem.

It’s been a real change for us & a good one, to not have her underfoot expecting to skim the best of everything. She’s free to mismanage her money as she chooses & even though with her not contributing anything we have LESS coming in, we also have way less going out. We can plan, budget, save a bit & best of all, no overgrown infant to deal with.

Too many twenty somethings simply are doing it to themselves. They honestly think a useless degree will immediately score them a 6 figure job. The bottom of the ladder – a foreign concept to them. They refuse to take just any job – upholding the principle of having a ‘better’ education is more important than paying their own freight – especially if Mommy & Daddy are stupid enough to cover costs.

Generations of young people have struck out on their own & managed. It’s scary, fun & boy, it’s the only way to learn. The concept of not leaving ‘home’ until you have it as good as Mom & Dad? Yeah, we probably collectively did that to them & we are paying the price now.

I’d strongly recommend to anyone with ‘kids’ in the basement – give them a deadline. If you want to be generous – make it a year & in that year, cut back anything but the basics. A car isn’t basic – your Precious Poppet can take a bus, ride a bike or gasp!, walk. There IS work out there – it may not be what they WANT to do but if it pays the bills – good enough, at least initially.

#32 Louise on 07.28.13 at 7:11 pm

BC real estate scammer scammed the wrong people and now has to pay up or quietly pay-off, if you prefer.. http://www.vancouversun.com/business/real-estate/David+Baines+Real+estate+investors+settle+class/8379319/story.html

#33 Anon on 07.28.13 at 7:19 pm

Looks like no grandkids for the fogie and his wife. Who cares about investing if theres noone there to inherit? Steve will have his pittance, never marry, never form a family, die alone. So goes the youth of canada.

Enjoy our life steve, dad just wants to see you suffer. Why would you care if his line contnues?

#34 Louise on 07.28.13 at 7:26 pm

Hilarious ! Realtors calling the kettle black. http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/van/reb/3931886043.html

#35 Westernman on 07.28.13 at 7:26 pm

In the cold from Toronto @ # 2
I’ll tell you what Mr. Communist Wealth Re- Distributer,
before I pay one more nickel for this Socialist ” Paradise ” I will either cease working and go on the public dole, hide my money somewhere where it can’t be found or burn it – no more for you Socialists… period!

#36 KommyKim on 07.28.13 at 7:27 pm

RE: #32 NFN_NLN on 07.28.13 at 7:01 pm
Why is CPD going down while XIU is going up?

Ummm. Because they are totally different types of ETFs? One holds preferred shares and the other is the top 60 (Cap weighted) equities of the S&P/TSX Index.

RE: #20 Donald Trump on 07.28.13 at 6:14 pm
The only way you get communism is when capitalism gets too greedy. So maybe your namesake should pay a few more taxes to keep the working class peasants happy.

#37 Old Man on 07.28.13 at 7:27 pm

I agree and disagree with some of these comments; yes have seen a woman turn on her man from being a goodie to something else. Now with children who are in trouble no matter what the age always remember one thing. The parents birthed this young adult in question, so have compassion because the he or she that needs support is by genetics half of the dad and mother. Thus, what you decide to do is in effect doing such to yourself as parents.

#38 Louise on 07.28.13 at 7:29 pm

Someone got fooked ! http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/van/reo/3960949321.html

#39 Freedom First on 07.28.13 at 7:33 pm

Fantastic article Garth! On top of what you wrote about, “the at home career children:) , I know kids of the boomers who, since moving out and staying out, have: maxed out their credit cards and had the parents pay them off, taken 5 figure $$$$$ “gifts” for down payments on RE, and now, those boomers with grandchildren are giving even more $, and on top of it, their spare time to their kids/grandkids, either in babysitting, or in paying for dinners/entertainment out. But hey, they are “freely giving” everything. What you wrote about, plus this is a tragic mistake. Failure for mom and dad to cut the apron strings is not helpful, it is financially/life destroying for all of them. Nobody caught in these situations has experienced the growth necessary to acquire “wisdom”.

#40 dosouth on 07.28.13 at 7:34 pm

Kick his self-entitled a$$ to the curb and tell him no pain no gain. I suppose most of your under 35 hipster followers will write that they are “entitled” as it is the boomers fault this is happening….. get a wife!

#41 New economy Steve on 07.28.13 at 7:40 pm

Check out Steve: http://m.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/old-economy-steve-the-official-meme-for-embittered-millennials/276285/

#42 Daisy Mae on 07.28.13 at 7:41 pm

“…No news to Steve’s dad. “When I was his age I’d been working for five years and had a wife and a crappy house and no money. Not only am I paying for his food, I just bought his insurance and I pay for his car. It’s ridiculous.”

**********************

Parents must not DO that! Feed him? Renew his insurance, pay for his car? That’s called ‘enabling’.

#43 Dad on 07.28.13 at 7:43 pm

Why exactly is everyone so quick to toss this young man undr the bus? Does throwing him out on the street satisfy some sort of deep resentment? Tell me, if this were Stephanie we were talking about here, would everyone be tripping over themselves to toss her out on the street?

Of course not.

#44 Nemesis on 07.28.13 at 7:55 pm

Perhaps it’s time to give autarky and anarcho-syndicalism a sporting chance?

‘NonSequitur’ guaranteed to make ‘DonaldTrump’s’ HeadExplode:

http://youtu.be/P0ayZe_GsQA

[NoteToGT: After adjusting for the ontological illusions of youth I think I can safely say, objectively, that's it's much harder for them now... then it was for us then. As you well know... Politics is about who gets what. Cui Bono?]

#45 Donald Trump on 07.28.13 at 7:57 pm

#38 KommyKim on 07.28.13 at 7:27 pm

RE: #20 Donald Trump on 07.28.13 at 6:14 pm
The only way you get communism is when capitalism gets too greedy. So maybe your namesake should pay a few more taxes to keep the working class peasants happy.

=================================

Are you people not getting it…?

Neo -cons and Communist are THE SAME .

Power and wealth concentrated in the hands of a few.
What do you see going on around you ?

The biggest clue is “Free Trade”.

The working class peasants allowed themselves and their children to get too dumbed down as the rug gets pulled from under them.

#46 Tony on 07.28.13 at 7:59 pm

The problem is most parents are broke. I don’t have any children but my brother sent his son and daughter to Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Princeton University so they could get a good job somewhere in the world.

#47 Beach Girl on 07.28.13 at 8:02 pm

Reading with intense interest. I have no basement dwellers among my 4 sons. All under 26. Not gonna happen. Are they happy, shit no.

Are they waiting for me to die, yes. Will keep reading. this is interesting.

#48 Daisy Mae on 07.28.13 at 8:05 pm

“But,” mom says, “how’s he ever going to get a good job without being able to drive to interviews? And he’s only been out of school a year. Why are we pushing?”

***********************

Mothers are extremely protective. Fathers need to step up to the plate and lay down the law. Simple. They aren’t doing the kid any good by pampering. I think it’s called TOUGH LOVE.

#49 OlderbutWiser on 07.28.13 at 8:11 pm

Dad #45, I think the reason why everyone is down on Steve is because his parents cannot afford to continue to support him and save for their own retirement.

Our son still lives with us (he’s close to 30) and is working full time. Although he doesn’t pay any rent, he does cook for us every day and is a fantastic chef. I like having him at home and we can easily afford to help him out and save for our retirement.

#50 Robert on 07.28.13 at 8:12 pm

Always makes me think about these people don’t you know your setting your kids up to fail?

#51 Daisy Mae on 07.28.13 at 8:13 pm

“The kid should go. He’ll find a way to survive.”

*********************

He will. He really will. Because he’ll have no choice. And if he’s been raised properly it won’t be drug smuggling, prostitution…and all that crap. He’ll GROW UP because he has no alternative.

#52 Dad on 07.28.13 at 8:19 pm

51 OlderbutWiser on 07.28.13 at 8:11 pm

Didnt answer the question. If this were Stephanie and not steve, would everyone be in a mad rush to expose her to “drug smuggling and prostitution” just to prove a point about “manning up”?

We both know the answer is no.

#53 Daisy Mae on 07.28.13 at 8:23 pm

#8 HD: “If at 26 he doesn’t have the brain power to fingur this out on his own, chances are that he’ll never really get it.”

******************

Yes. I heard if a kid doesn’t have his act together by age 30, he never will.

#54 Daisy Mae on 07.28.13 at 8:27 pm

Mr. Frugal: “We parents need to give them an encouraging word and a good shove in the right direction. And then we need to stand back and watch them fall on their ass. And when they’ve done that, we need to pick them up and tell them to get back in there. That’s the job of a parent.”

****************

Very well said.

#55 Donald Trump on 07.28.13 at 8:32 pm

#46 Nemesis on 07.28.13 at 7:55 pm

ROTFLMAO….

Thanks for the clip…I never saw it before.

ahahahahahaha…what a bunch of propaganda crap.

Do some homework..just again ROTFLMAO at the romanticism attached to Communism/Marxism.

Are you aware that NYC Bankers(Neo Cons) funded the Bolshevik revolution(Communists) with $20 Million , and trained the revolutionaries in New Jersey ?

They were intercepted in Canada on their way to Europe, but Canada “let them go” and they went on to slaughter over, by some estimates, 60 Million Russians.

Russia was actually one of the worlds leading economies at the time. The Bolsheviks convinced the people they were oppressed, swallowed the kool-aid then they overthrew the Gov’t.

Once chaos was established, the Bolsheviks opened the prisons and let all the scum of society prey on the citizens. They rounded up those that could be a threat(intellectuals, clergy ,police )and executed them.

Then for the hell of it, they grab people at random that would never be seen again. So what was the middle class were authors of their own demise.

GOOGLE the Russian movie “Cheka”

BTW, once these parties get in power, the first people they take out are the “useful idiots” who helped them. The reason is that the” useful idiots ” are a combination of traitors and usually the first to turn on their manipulators once they realize what has REALLY happened.

Are we getting it yet?

#56 Ben on 07.28.13 at 8:33 pm

Garth, I’m disappointed! Boomers who had a ‘crappy house’ had their mortgages eroded to nothing by house price inflation (and wage inflation) in the 1970s. They lucked out. But it wasn’t free. That tab is being picked up by the youth, asked to buy into the market at an absurd wage multiple.

It’s all about politicians pulling forward demand by getting people to spend on credit and neglect to save. The boomers bought into this because they are infantile with money. Now we reap what they sowed. Great.

#57 Daisy Mae on 07.28.13 at 8:34 pm

#16 brainsail: “My brother didn’t leave until he was 39. Now he has been willed the house because the poor guy has never owned a house and can only afford to rent. He and his wife were well educated (nursing and computer science) and twenty one years later can only get temporary jobs. I don’t get it.”

******************

Neither do I. Life isn’t fair. Sometimes it sucks…and I do know where you’re coming from.

#58 Chickenlittle on 07.28.13 at 8:36 pm

Real life smarts are underrated.

Real life skills (trades), like carpentry, plumbing, and mechanics, actually come in handy once in a while and save you money.

Too many people go after the more egg-headed type degrees that have little practical value. Mind you, they will get you a job at a hipster coffee shop, but other than that, not much else.

“Theorists from Plato to Rousseau to our own Dr. Inglis knew that if children could be cloistered with other children, stripped of responsibility and independence, encouraged to develop only the trivializing emotions of greed, envy, jealousy, and fear, they would grow older but never truly grow up.”
John Taylor Gatto, 2003.

http://www.wesjones.com/gatto1.htm

Great article!!!

Greed: Garths #1 reason RE has come to this point. It all fits.

#59 Victor V on 07.28.13 at 8:37 pm

http://business.financialpost.com/2013/07/26/womans-heavy-debt-load-has-a-simple-fix/

In British Columbia, a woman we’ll call Maureen, 68, has retired.

Formerly a retail store manager, she is living on Canada Pension Plan benefits, Old Age Security, modest investment income and a bit of rental income. Still her after tax income, $31,000 a year, does not cover her annual expenses of $33,024.

She lives in a trailer and vacations in another mobile home she has parked in Arizona, renting it out when she does not use it. Her budget is lean, yet she is running a monthly deficit. She is slowly heading toward insolvency, even though she has almost $250,000 invested in a fixed income asset. How her capital and debts are managed will make or break her financial future.

#60 JSS on 07.28.13 at 8:40 pm

I work for an organization that provides a defined benefit pension plan, and there is a growing amount of seventy-somethings sitting in senior management positions. They are all highly paid, been with the org an average of thirty years or so.

They have no interest to retire.

In fact, some of their staff recently retired knowing full well that the old guy was not going to retire. Ever. Until he kicks the bucket.

Maybe it’s time for the old folks to call it a day, retire, and make room for the next generation.

#61 CondoLawsuits on 07.28.13 at 8:56 pm

You will see tons of lawsuits in Toronto soon with the amount of shoddy built condos about to be uncovered. Lawyers will be cashing in for the next 5 years minimum. Buyers will be pissed and probably won’t win the majority of cases because they got suckered by pie in the sky dreams of condo riches and forgot to read the contract clauses. Throw in crashing condo prices from over supply and higher mortgage rates, the tears will be flowing like Niagara Falls. This will be epic folks. Get your popcorn ready. It’s showtime.

#62 T.O. Bubble Boy on 07.28.13 at 8:59 pm

I can’t relate to the twenty- and thirty-somethings living at home (having moved out @ 18 for university and never thought once about moving back), but has anyone considered the impact of immigration and cultural influence on this trend?

Multi-generational families are extremely common in many countries outside of North America, and those traditions have definitely rooted themselves in the GTA.

I don’t think that this is all because of sheltered twenty-something liberal arts grads with no money and fears of living independently… I think that there are numerous twenty-somethings who have always planned on living at home and saving tons of $$$, and only moving out to a new home once they become newlyweds and go through the cultural tradition of moving into a new home to start married life.

#63 Vangrrl on 07.28.13 at 9:15 pm

#45 Dad: Perhaps not, but according to stats it appears that young men stay home longer than women. If, as you say, there wouldn’t be pressure on a daughter at 26 I’d guess that was cultural, and I’d assume she had less freedom/ was more coddled than her brothers. I wouldn’t envy a girl that, but that’s me.
I think the fact that Steve is not working and his parents pay for everything as if he is a child is what rankles people. My brother stayed home longer than I did (early 20s, I left at 19), but he worked whatever job he could get and contributed rent as my parents still had a mortgage. He also contributed to groceries and paid for his own ‘toys’- his motorbike, guitar. When he did move out he had essentially already learned how to cook and take care of himself.
Steve’s situation is much different and his parens are doing him no favours.

#64 Observer on 07.28.13 at 9:16 pm

With policy clearly in favour of babying home owners and inflating housing to ridiculous levels and punishing savers, no wonder the kid is staying at home with mom and dad. Smart kid, I’d say. Is there anything about the price of shelter that would make it easy for the kid to leave home and start a family in Canada? Don’t feel guilty kiddo…stay as long as you need to. In many places in the world it is normal for generations to live together and perhaps Canada is now one of them.

#65 DM in C on 07.28.13 at 9:19 pm

This is definitely the parents’ fault for enabling him. Paying for his car – are you KIDDING ME with this? Buy him a frigging transit pass and make him pay rent! They’re not doing anyone any favors by letting him skate by.

Our oldest turned 18 last fall. Went to visit friends in California in January — just came back last week. Stayed for 5 hours and now he’s living in Vancouver. He knows if he stays with us, it’s school full time or work full time and pay rent. No exceptions.

He’s making his own way and figuring it out. WE had to. And we’re doing alright for ourselves. We love and respect his decisions, but we aren’t bailing him out. Didn’t stop dad from sliding him $100.00 at the Greyhound station though. Always a parent. But didn’t let him take the PS3 as much as he wanted it.

#66 Nemesis on 07.28.13 at 9:21 pm

Offered without comment.

http://youtu.be/FKXgPLDn1gY

#67 Timing is Everything on 07.28.13 at 9:22 pm

#16 brainsail – I don’t get it.

Your brother does.

#68 Marginal on 07.28.13 at 9:32 pm

Garth, you sure know how to start a bun fight, in keeping with all the intergenerational bun fights on all the PF blogs.
Not sure what it is about boomer parents, but it sure is weird; helicopter parents. Did boomers feel that their depression era parents didn’t hug them enough or were too tough on them? It seems to be some kind of pendulum cycle—one extreme to the next. For all those who say that the current generation has it tougher, I shake my head. When my friends went to college or university, no one had a car. We all lived in ratholes when we started out, unlike the current ones starting out.
We actually had a management training course where I work, detailing how to manage millennials, since they were used to getting gold stars at school no matter how poorly they performed and no one failed. We were told that to manage millennials effectively, we had to provide constant praise (gold stars) and feedback. Sheesh, if that wasn’t bad enough, I recently read in the local paper that there’s a movement to stop keeping score for junior sports teams.
However, based on purely anecdotal experience, I don’t think this applies to all families. Some ethnic groups have highly motivated, ambitious offspring. That probably explains that all the medical specialists I’ve encountered over the past few years while helping my mother are visible minorities….and please don’t mention immigration. You can’t come into Canada with a medical degree and set up shop, you have to completely re-qualify.
Agree with Daisy Mae, tough love is the way to go.

#69 26 in the basement on 07.28.13 at 9:35 pm

As a current 26 year old male living at home, it is very interesting to read all the comments from this story.

Firstly, it is extremely ironic to me that these boomers who have enjoyed the massive price inflation of housing in the GTA (they stand to net 400K after buying a condo which lets just say is 250K) and they do not see the correlation between this and an increasing amount of 20 year olds living at home.

Secondly, as a 26 yr old I am at home, paying rent, buying groceries as I would do if I were living on my own and my single mom is very grateful for the added income and help. I understand this individual is seemed as a ‘net negative’ because they aren’t contributing to the household which is somewhat understandable but I think it is mostly a “I moved out by 20 so you should too” response.

In many other cultures living with parents until late 20s-30s is normal and helps build family wealth rather than seen as failure to launch. Our south asian friends in Brampton and elsewhere have mastered this strategy and many have bought their children residences of their own.

There is alot to learn here, I just wish everyone 35+ would stop being so judgmental and worry about yourselves!

As a first time poster, I just want to say, thanks for your blogs Garth – although sometimes a depressing writing style, I do like a blog that tries to mesh in some macroeconomic logic into todays ‘house horny’ culture.

#70 Randy on 07.28.13 at 9:37 pm

They are going to have to make retroactive abortions legal now….why not ?……Tigers eat their young !

#71 Burnt Norton on 07.28.13 at 9:39 pm

Gotta love all the armchair family therapists on here.

Nothing worse than unsolicited parenting advice, especially from all these geniuses.

#72 Victoria the original on 07.28.13 at 9:46 pm

Now their misguided parenting is coming home to roost – literally.

They are the generation of parents where the phrase Helicopter parenting was coined.

#73 Nosty the Wolfman on 07.28.13 at 9:50 pm

#47 Donald Trump — Although I vehemently disagree with your coiffed hair style (because I don’t have any left), I do agree with your post.

Lots to be played out yet plus the unexpected things, but it does seem to be unfolding into the lefties’ hands.

#74 CrowdedElevatorfartz on 07.28.13 at 9:50 pm

Just another “example” of how Generation ‘Why” is stickin it to these greedy, self absorbed Boomers…….

#75 CrowdedElevatorfartz on 07.28.13 at 9:51 pm

Sorry, I meant Generation “Why Bother”……..

#76 Canadian Watchdog on 07.28.13 at 9:53 pm

This is always a spirited debate. To the left you have parents encouraging kids to go out and borrow to keep the world's biggest ponzi scheme going, and to the right you have parents willing to let their kids dwell, with hope, he or she may invent the next best thing since sliced bread.

Personally, I find some comments on here are quite arrogant considering a possible reason for their success or standing job is because they've dumped the debt burden on their kids. Question: if Steve's dad worked for GM, a bank or any beneficiary of taxpayer bailout money; should his son and the millennials have bailed him out?

So what's the difference from then and now anyway?. Let's review some numbers. (US Stats)  

1961

Education: News article from 1961 – $1,000

Median Income: US Department of Commerce Report 1961 – $5,000 (1 earner)

Average Home Price:  Boston Globe 1961 (Archived Headline) –  $15,000

2012-2013

Education: $22,261

Median Household Income: $51,404

Average Home Price: $249,700

Now we adjust 1961 costs to 2013 dollars, juxtaposed to 2013 costs.

(Inflation Calculator)

Education Cost: Then $1,000 ($7,809) | Now $22,261

Median Income: Then $5,000 ($39,047) (1 earner) | Now $51,404 (2 earners)

Average Home Price: Then $15,000 ($117,142) | Now $249,700

Fair game?

To analogize: this is equivalent to an old fart telling a young lad they used to lift 100lbs back in the day while pointing to 200lbs mislabeled as 100lbs and telling them, lift you little bugger! How cruel is that?

#77 Marginal on 07.28.13 at 9:56 pm

#60 ChickenBig
Spot on! Not sure why trades are overlooked, although I have heard that it is very difficult to get an apprentice position.
Everyone wants their kid to have a university degree, but in this age of globalization I’m not sure why. Tax accounting, routine audit functions, most IT functions, even review of x-rays by radiologists are being outsourced. Having your own business in a field that requires hands on service is the way to go. It’s either that or global, speak more than one language and be prepared to work anywhere in the world.

#78 johnanddagney on 07.28.13 at 9:58 pm

#16 brainsail
There are producers and takers. Your brother is a taker, rewarded with the house for doing nothing. Middle class private sector tax paying producers (suckers) kicked in the nuts for following the rules. Hit by increasing taxes to pay for the likes of civil servants (takers) who are rewarded with high pay and benefits for doing little in exchange for voting Liberal.
Not playing anymore. Quit the job, sold the house. No payroll taxes, no property taxes. Renting for one third the cost of maintaining our former property. Balanced, diversified and liquid!

#79 Cow Man on 07.28.13 at 9:59 pm

From those of us who got rich from house price inflation, it is pretty sickening to hear the “dump them on the street” rhetoric.

#80 Uh Oh Canada on 07.28.13 at 10:11 pm

Ah yes, the classic Boomer children. Two cases I know that illustrates the mass financial disaster to come:

– Dad just retired a year ago and Mom is a stay at home mother. Daughter is a single parent with child in her thirties and doesn’t work and lives with parents. Mortgage is not paid off and they’re running a monthly deficit.

-Single mom will be eligible for pension in a year. Lives in a mortgaged home with a daughter who doesn’t work. Looking forward to retiring but afraid of what the future will bring.

Boomers and their boomerang children.

#81 Marginal on 07.28.13 at 10:14 pm

#66 Observer
“In many places in the world it is normal for generations to live together and perhaps Canada is now one of them.”
—————————————————————
Big cultural differences. Regarding the cultures you are referring to, they generally adhere to the principle of “all for one and one for all”.
Interestingly, Garth’s anecdote underlines the fact that in our western/non-ethnic culture, there is no expectation that kids will look after siblings, never mind parents. If that was truly part of our heritage than why worry about the basement dweller…….Garth didn’t figure basement dweller’s future earnings into his clients’ financial plan….why not?

#82 Timing is Everything on 07.28.13 at 10:24 pm

#78 Canadian Watchdog

‘Appreciate’ the post. Thanks.

#83 Jimbo on 07.28.13 at 10:24 pm

Saving and financial responsibility is not taught in schools and is an anathema to banks. This is why parents need to teach prudent saving and finances to their kids from a young age (10-12 years old). There are a myriad of ways to teach this to your kids.

From the age of 15, my father would check my bank book every month. If the withdrawals were 15% or less of what I made for that month, he would top up my account with the 15% (or less) of what I withdrew.

I always took out exactly 15% and this provided me an incentive to work more knowing that I could spend more and always have the top up from my dad.

I think it’s too late for Steve because his parents missed the boat.

#84 Gunboat denier on 07.28.13 at 10:28 pm

Great blog topic Garth, and some great comments. My 24 YO is moving out in the next coupla weeks but only cuz his squeeze has school out-of-town.

50 Dasiy – yes I am very familiar with this situation.
Generally though, it is not about kicking them out per se. It is about them gaining some independence. I Lived
with parents and ILs off and on until I was 32, but I (and my wife were always contributing and working towards
other goals.

#85 45north on 07.28.13 at 10:33 pm

The kid should go. He’ll find a way to survive. A 62-year-old guy in a dying small business, not so much.

sitting across the table from his parents has got to be a humbling experience but why doesn’t the mom get it? I mean she needs a retirement plan too. Doesn’t she see her husband getting older? The days sitting across the table and coming up with business schemes where he works 12 hours a day are gone. Maybe 8 hours a day. Maybe.

CatFoodLady: I’d been a tough mom, he’d spoiled his daughter to death

thanks for your story – I’d say you have been a help to your family – including your step daughter

[email protected]

#86 TnT on 07.28.13 at 10:33 pm

Moving out before marriage is just a baby boomer phenomenon.

http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/episode/generation-boomerang.html

I think it’s the perfect storm brewing… Big houses that can accommodate boomerang kids, immigrant social norms to stay and expensive real estate.

#87 Realist on 07.28.13 at 10:34 pm

It can be a very unfortunate situation of basement dwellers. High escalation in Housing prices over the last 10 years and lack of good jobs have created many of these issues in my opinion for the young generation; even despite popular media saying their spoiled. That being said, living on your own despite some challenges creates good independence and forced ability to move ahead. The detrimental downside if unable to secure employment could lead to homelessness etc. Lots of good paying jobs or livable wages would be basically a non issue for those situations. I recall even in the early 90’s (recessionary times) when I graduated from university times were tight but at least rents/housing was more affordable in relation to take home pay. I recall I got 30K job at that time and it is scary that most kids coming out of university at the present time don’t even get that on first job. That is 20 years ago. A minimum wage job these days is hard to find affordability with roof over your head. What usually helps is get lots of roommates to share expenses, that is what I did and had lots of fun in the process. Also, helps with contacts and independence. Just my 2 cents. On that topic I agree totally with Garth houses are too expensive in Canada and amazed there has been no noticeable contraction over the last few years.

#88 takla on 07.28.13 at 10:36 pm

sink or swim,those words from my dad have stayed with me to this day. He gave me one month after grade 12 grad to find work and move on.of course i complyed and never looked back.Each of my 4 kids got the same treatment and are all doing well,educated,gainfully employed,and liveing independently.

#89 Joe on 07.28.13 at 10:36 pm

I wish I could figure out Steve’s secret. I moved out at 17, worked dozens of unsavoury jobs and went without sleep for years, struggled without any help at all to get through university, and now that I’m in my 30s and starting to finally save money I get to watch my parents ignore all prudent financial advice as they spend the wad they inherited from their parents, and what money they made in real-estate, on profligate world travel and ill-advised materialism, blithely believing that once they’ve spent through all their undeserved savings in a few years that the government will take care them in their old age. I hope so, because I sure won’t be.

#90 Toronto CA on 07.28.13 at 10:47 pm

A lot of people seem to be upset that we don’t teach teenagers in highschool enough about personal finance.

It sounds like a good idea, and certainly I can see no harm in it…BUT… for the vast majority of teenagers, it would be like teaching driver’s ed in grade 2, without using a car.

You can learn the theory and math about why credit cards are bad, and why you should save for retirement and save 20% down for a house, etc. but it is just too far removed from reality for almost every teenager to really put into practice for many years. And by then, much like trigonometry, it is gone from the brain from lack of use.

I read somewhere that there isn’t any proof that teaching teenagers personal finance leads to adults who are more financially savvy than those who received no personal finance courses.

Like the marshmallow test given to 3 year olds, some people just are able to delay gratification naturally and some aren’t. And for other people they have to learn the hard way that debt can harm you, in other words they learn from experience. I suspect many of us had bad personal financial habits at some point in our lives and finally had enough and learned to stay out of consumer debt and build an emergency fund and then invest.

So while I don’t think personal finance courses in highschool would do any harm, they aren’t the silver bullet people think they are and implementing them won’t solve youth unemployment or keep kids from living in the basement.

Just my 2 cents worth!

#91 The Man From Nantucket on 07.28.13 at 10:49 pm

#70 Marginal on 07.28.13 at 9:32 pm
……….
We actually had a management training course where I work, detailing how to manage millennials, since they were used to getting gold stars at school no matter how poorly they performed and no one failed. We were told that to manage millennials effectively, we had to provide constant praise (gold stars) and feedback. Sheesh, if that wasn’t bad enough, I recently read in the local paper that there’s a movement to stop keeping score for junior sports teams….

Hehe.

I’ve been through a similar training course. My resident HR “generalist” (AKA PC moron) “strongly suggested” I do it after a handful of complaints from mid to late Ys and Millenials (I guess I am late X / Early Y…..whatever).

Anyway, my infractions?

-I ordered the useless self-entitled tits to do some of the shit that their resume said they could do,

-I gave them enough time to complete the tasks, and kept an open door and phone line in case there were questions about my needs/wants,

-I strongly criticized the technically inaccurate work that was delivered (late) with piles of “style” errors,

Imagine the unfairness! What a bastard of a “boss” ! :)

#78 Canadian Watchdog on 07.28.13 at 9:53 pm

……….Fair game?

My favourite comedian said it the best – “Life’s tough, get a f—ing helmet”.

For a day’s pay, today’s generation can buy personal computing devices more powerful than anything I had 20 years ago…..and these are the ones that fit in your front pocket

For an hour’s pay, they can hook this thing up to a gajillion other computers for a month and transfer information at speeds that I could only dream of…..(they waste this on facebook and porn)

Time to quit bitching and just carpe the frigging diem. The opportunities are different, but there’s lots more of them.

#92 OK Kingpin on 07.28.13 at 10:57 pm

These sorts of things things never end well.. 26 years old and STILL living at home? You have to blame the parents here…

http://mayer320.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/these-things-never-really-end-well/

#93 KommyKim on 07.28.13 at 10:59 pm

RE: #47 Donald Trump on 07.28.13 at 7:57 pm
Are you people not getting it…?
Neo -cons and Communist are THE SAME .

No they are not. And NO, Hitler was not a Communist either, despite what you may hear on Fox News.
George W Bush became more Neo-con after 9/11 and was not a communist by any stretch.
So no, not the same at all.

#94 Toronto CA on 07.28.13 at 11:08 pm

Slightly off topic, but another bone to pick. I too have taken those management courses discussed above that tell you how to manage Gen X/Y/Millenial/Boomer etc. It seems to be currently de rigueur to take your employees and sort them by the year they were born and manage them according to their generation.

I have 4 direct and 10 indirect reports in my department of about 15 that I manage. Of those, in Toronto, only myself and 2 others were born and raised in North America. I don’t think you can stereotype by gen X and gen Y and millenial and boomer to people raised in mainland China or Eastern Europe or India. But I’m being told to use these techniques (developed in the USA and doled out by brainless Canadian HR professionals).

I usually make the instructors turn red by asking why it is okay to stereotype boomers or millenials and manage by age category but not okay to have a course on managing men and women differently? Good for a chuckle. Painting boomers as being change resistant technophobes (which these courses do) is just as bad as saying all Gen-Yers are entitled, though.

#95 young & foolish on 07.28.13 at 11:13 pm

It wasn’t supposed to be this way … nobody thought it through. Now we are on the hook for our “civilized society”. Can you really escape that?

#96 The Man From Nantucket on 07.28.13 at 11:16 pm

As for boomerang children, I have mixed feelings.

The first launch was aborted due to stupidity. Had a decent job, rental within means, car within means. Just had an appetite for fun that led to painful revolving debt.

So, I boomeranged for a short time to set up the ultimate launch. The only difference was that I paid a fair bit less rent (but still something around half of market), and occasionally ate from the family freezer.

The several hundred in savings per month really helped crush the revolving debt in preparation for the (so far) successful launch.

Loser? Yeah, sure. Idiot? Absolutely. Damn that period of orgiastic overspending was fun though!

I’m planning to treat my kids similarly. If you’re training for the obedience certificate , you get a room and fridge rights……..and if you’re not, you’d better find a job because rent is due on the first and the landlord’s a prick!

#97 Dan on 07.28.13 at 11:19 pm

Wow Garth, did you take a stick to a hornets nest or what! Frankly, our 28 yr old son resides with us, pays rent, and makes a damn good living running his own business. We love our kids and would be sad if our son had to move away. And as for a Science or Arts degree, its called getting an education not a trade. You can be an uneducated innumerate bumpkin with a wrench if you want, its just not my choice. Granted we know people who are like the young hangers on that many of your readers are referring to, The difference is our kids are responsible, earn good livings and one of them lives with us. If they need a hand we reach down to pick them up. These are after all tougher times that when we graduated and jobs were there like low hanging fruit. Today, We wouldn’t have it any other way. And thankfully we stick together as a family and not disown our kids at 18 like some of your “tough” readers. Good post Garth, keep it up.

#98 Vangrrl on 07.28.13 at 11:22 pm

#83 Marginal:
‘Western/non-ethnic culture’ makes absolutely no sense. Everyone on the planet has an ethnicity.
#91 Joe:
I enjoyed your post :)

#99 Julie on 07.28.13 at 11:49 pm

But but but but but……. I thought the economy in the USA was booming?

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/exclusive-4-5-us-face-near-poverty-no-work-0

That’s what Garth keeps saying because a few “global” stocks are making piles of cash. You know they make money from 7 billion people right? Not just Amerikans.

Meanwhile most of “private sector” Amerika is broke. Sorry Garth but govt workers in the US buying houses and other crap can only keep this ponzi going for so long. Right Detroit?????

#100 will on 07.28.13 at 11:59 pm

#64 T.O. Bubble Boy said:

“Multi-generational families are extremely common in many countries outside of North America, and those traditions have definitely rooted themselves in the GTA.”

This is the most interesting comment of all.

If Stevie boy is really just sponging with no vision, no plan, then he has to go. Otherwise there is no intrinsic reason to kick him out. The extended family is a human possibility. This is anthropology 101.

23 million american young adults still at home is a lot of people to label as “failed to launch”. Maybe there’s something else really wrong with the socio-economic gas bag we live in. Mom and Dad can’t articulate it, but it’s there. It’s a complicated world out there.

#101 John in Mtl on 07.29.13 at 12:02 am

@#60 Chickenlittle –

Indeed, a great article, every kid and teacher should read it. But then again, if they did, the machine would come to a grinding halt, and TPTB can’t have that now, can they.
Thanks you for the link.

#102 John in Mtl on 07.29.13 at 12:18 am

From an interesting article: Bankers Own the World
(and are ultimately destroying it).

“How is it that companies that produce nothing and only move digital representations of money from point to point now control far more wealth than the companies that actually produce the things that makes money useful at all?

Well, that’s just how the system works. And this is something that nobody in power wants to talk about.

While we may decide that such as system is just, or unjust, or evil, or good, such judgments are merely the emotionally laden descriptors we might assign to a system that – by its very design – accumulates wealth from the many to the few.”

Link: http://www.peakprosperity.com/blog/82432/bankers-own-world?utm_campaign=weekly_newsletter_85&utm_source=newsletter_2013-07-26&utm_medium=email_newsletter&utm_content=node_title_82432

#103 Cici on 07.29.13 at 12:18 am

Ok, everyone’s down on Steve, and rightly so, BUT in his defence, Toronto is obscenely expensive, and junior positions for new graduates pay shit. No wonder the kids are trying to hide out in their parents’ basements.

Either that or spend their entire monthly cheque on the rent of someone else’s crappy little condo?

But seriously, Steve should get out and find himself a job, even if he has to swap provinces or countries. You can’t mooch forever, after all…

#104 Donald Trump on 07.29.13 at 12:33 am

#75 Nosty the Wolfman on 07.28.13 at 9:50 pm

#47 Donald Trump — Although I vehemently disagree with your coiffed hair style (because I don’t have any left), I do agree with your post.

Lots to be played out yet plus the unexpected things, but it does seem to be unfolding into the lefties’ hands.

==================================

What’s not to love, if not outright envy ?

#105 len on 07.29.13 at 12:48 am

Another HAM propaganda with this gem of a quote:

From globe and mail

“While many newly arrived Chinese immigrants might well be able to afford luxury homes, the amount of money they can take out of the country is limited by the Chinese government. So those who have been here for at least three or four years, and increasingly their children, are the ones driving the luxury-home market revival.”

#106 a prairie dawg on 07.29.13 at 12:59 am

By his age I’d had steady jobs for 11 years already. (part time until age 18)

Time to grow up Steve.

#107 Pulp Faction on 07.29.13 at 1:01 am

Ha ha ha ! 26 and still breast-feeding…
Sounds like Mom can’t let him grow up and he’s happy not to have to. Doing him no favors.

#108 len on 07.29.13 at 1:02 am

14% unemployment is just a start. How many are saddled with student debt their parents never had to take on, how many are working at shitty jobs that pay next to zero.

Housing prices at record high, rents not exactly cheap on that McJob salary. If their parents turn them out, you will have riots on the streets! Young unemployed guys with no opportunites? Be ever so thankful there are parents willing and able to support them. And what would you know about parenting in this fabulous new century anyways? Oh, right, you were once young so that qualifies you!

#109 Smartalox on 07.29.13 at 1:02 am

@johnanddagney #80:

Surely you’re not trying to paint the Conservatives as the makers in the makers versus takers argument, considering Mike Duffy and Pamela Wallin, or the legion of mute Government back-benchers living large and offering little value on taxpayers time!

If you’re going to recycle Republican drivel north of the border, I ask you to consider that it’s as false an argument here as it was there:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/28/opinion/krugman-makers-takers-fakers-.html?_r=0

#110 Mark on 07.29.13 at 1:08 am

There’s lots of industries in Canada that haven’t done any hiring since the late 1990s, ie: Canada’s technology industry. A whole decade worth of grads basically with their lives on hold because the industry has failed to renew itself, leaving the people who studied engineering and computer science in the lurch.

We gave up on supporting advanced R&D through companies like Nortel, simply so boomers could have expensive houses.

Things are so bad that almost entire graduating classes in engineering are unemployed. Yes, engineering. The few lucky employed ones in completely irrelevant jobs such as mortgage brokering.

#111 Joe Calgary on 07.29.13 at 1:23 am

Well Garth according to global tonight. The Chinese are going to buy Canada up, they used a second hand story from a realtor about someone coming from shanghai and laughing at the ‘low price’ of $4000000 for a faux stucco mansion in Toronto. I was actually laughing out loud in my bedroom watching this on the national tonight. We live in a communist country.

#112 CrowdedElevatorfartz on 07.29.13 at 1:35 am

@#93 The MAN from…….

“Time to quit bitching and just carpe the frigging diem. The opportunities are different, but there’s lots more of them”

Total agreement.
All the Gen X Gen Y Bee-yatching in the world isnt gonna get your tuition paid. And if you dont like your student debt……then maybe ya shoulda thought about it BEFORE you went to the “diploma factory” and got “schooled” in how the real world works.

#113 Robert on 07.29.13 at 1:46 am

My son lived in the basement through university and into his first job. As a full time student he paid nominal rent; when he got out and took on full time work we worked out a fair increase. 2 years into his job he was ready to move out into a place of his own. I’d banked his rent payments and on his first week out in his new place, I rebated him the full amount plus interest just to get a good start. Seems to have worked because he hasn’t
asked to move back in yet.

#114 blablabla on 07.29.13 at 1:54 am

All I’m hearing is a lot of butthurt from you mangiacake types who get kicked out of the house at around 18.

The M.O. for us Italians is to live at home until you get married. I left in my late 20s which was considered daring. I figured that living with my parents in a ghost town suburb woud prevent me from meeting anyone and getting married in the 1st place, that or I didn’t see a huge possibility of marriage in my future esp. with the past generation or so of princesses, many who play chicken with marriage and fail (and who people attempt to dump onto me)–zero sympathy from me.

For many it is a huge leg up to move into the same or nearby McMansion neighbourhoods that the older generation moved into after a couple decades of blood, sweat, & tears, or move from the old Little Italys to the new ones.

#115 MEANWHILE IN EUROPA on 07.29.13 at 1:58 am

I see nothing wrong with living at home way into your 20’s, even 30’s. IF YOU CONTRIBUTE.

It is a very common way of living in Europe and elsewhere. Three generations or more live under one roof many times here.
The difference maybe that all dwellers help each other out one way or the other until some are ready to leave.
Not only the young for being able to get solid ground under their feet, but also the old being able to die in dignity.

#116 grampahindsight on 07.29.13 at 2:02 am

If you want the kids out , just cancel the tv and the internet its so simple, theres nothing to watch anyway and they wont be spending hours on face box

#117 DonDWest on 07.29.13 at 2:30 am

#70 Marginal

Funny, I’m currently going through the same HR crap due to my “unacceptable” behaviour towards boomers.

Here’s an example of a paragraph of fluff I’m currently reading: “Understand that as people age they’re less likely to respond to a more direct approach. Brief and rational explanations may be viewed as abrasive to older workers. Older workers have a wealth of experience that they want to share with you. So show a little patience as older workers explain their life stories and respond in kind with a similar abstract life story.”

Yes, that’s right, in order for older workers to “feel appreciated” I must endure hours upon end of boomers yacking about their real estate, Woodstock, their reality television shows, their darling who went to university, etc. Heaven forbid we actually discuss the work itself – after all, they’re old and have “life experience” that I would be all the wiser to listen to. . . I must spend hours of my day listening to an army of Grandpa Simpsons – how lovely!

What caused this latest HR stir? I told a baby boomer that his stated house value means nothing until the said house actually sells. Apparently, I was being “insensitive” and “immature.”

#118 Rural Rick on 07.29.13 at 2:34 am

So here is a thought. My generation wanted to get our own place so we could get laid. I left at 16. With sex at home there is no incentive to move out. Shit my duck knows that. Quack.

#119 Mr.Hulot on 07.29.13 at 2:43 am

Garth, here is why I am starting to think your thesis is wrong.
Although you are right in saying only 6% of buyers in BC are foreign, they are buying the most expensive homes thus “raising all the boats”.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/home-and-garden/real-estate/asian-buyers-give-a-boost-to-vancouvers-luxury-housing-market/article13465110/

Two years ago when I sold my $2.5 million home in West Vancouver, approximately 50 people came through. 47 were Chinese and ultimately the buyer was Chinese.

I am regretting selling.

#120 Buy? Curious? on 07.29.13 at 2:55 am

Garth, *sniff*, I’m breaking up with you. Here’s why. This weekend I had two conversations with two different milfs about Toronto real estate. One woman has two condos in the Distillery District rented out. She jacked up the rent by $400 in one when the tenant left and had no gap between tenants. The other one told me that they bought their place in Leslieville for $195k and it sold this past May for $450k. With the profit, they’re buying in High Park/Swansea. And she works at the Bay dressing mannequins!

Your text book economic theories and assumptions are cool to the guys that come here but at parties, the good looking ladies that are chatting me up are making money from their real estate investments. The only people who are losing money are people that are trying to flip their properties in a short period of time and that’s the gawd damn fees (legal, tax, real estate hoes etc.)

So, as much as like to visit this site and read your quirky take on the market, the reality is this, Buy, wait, sell, repeat. You said the average length people stay in houses is 7 years. Isn’t that long enough to ride out any market correction? It’s not rocket science. Trying to invest while renting is too complicated. ETF’s, bonds, currency exchanges, etc? If the return is 1% more but I can’t hang pictures of my family on the walls, well, I’m buying a house, staying for 7 years, then selling and making more money than I would at my job.

I still love you though.

Sing it with me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OkhOeU561w

#121 Devore on 07.29.13 at 3:47 am

Mars, Venus and Steve will all go down on the same ship. But at least no one will have to talk about money, until there’s none left.

#122 Devore on 07.29.13 at 3:59 am

“But,” mom says, “how’s he ever going to get a good job without being able to drive to interviews?

Hand him some bus fare. Or keys to the minivan. He needs his own car to drive to interviews? Maybe he could get a paper or flyer route, and buy himself a beater for a $1000. I wonder what he does all day, but I am afraid to ask, probably something to do with night elves.

#123 Devore on 07.29.13 at 4:29 am

#24 Old Man

We all must fight the corporations who want more and more

We all want more and more, so it balances out through competition. (In your case you want the same for less, inflation-adjusted.) It’s kind of the defining feature of humanity. If we were all happy with what we have, we’d still be living in caves.

#124 Devore on 07.29.13 at 4:45 am

#32 NFN_NLN

Why is CPD going down while XIU is going up?

You will find your answers here.

http://ca.ishares.com/product_info/fund/excel_histoverview.htm?ticker=CPD

#125 Devore on 07.29.13 at 5:50 am

#66 Observer

Don’t feel guilty kiddo…stay as long as you need to. In many places in the world it is normal for generations to live together and perhaps Canada is now one of them.

It’s not about living together, it’s about pissing a decade of your life away. In many places in the world it is normal to be mature, married, with kids and adult responsibilities, contributing to the family and community by Steve’s age, not struggling with basic daily tasks such as dressing yourself in the morning (or whenever Steve wakes up).

#126 The R on 07.29.13 at 6:13 am

I don’t get it– why not give money to your kids while your alive ? instead of saving it all till your dead –they’re getting it anyways

I mean isn’t the point of having kids, is to give them a better life than you had yourself.

#127 Mikey the Realtor on 07.29.13 at 7:26 am

What a pathetic bunch, they have kids for their own pleasure and when the kid is no longer cute and cuddly they want to throw them out, give it a rest.

If you have a child he/she is yours till the end regardless of their age, if they need help then help them, if they need guidance then guide him, but the tone of many on here is sad indeed.

‘ I left when I was 18 and so I’m doing one better, kicking my kid out at 14, that will show the world’

#128 Mikey the Realtor on 07.29.13 at 8:05 am

Dan

” And as for a Science or Arts degree, its called getting an education not a trade. You can be an uneducated innumerate bumpkin with a wrench if you want, its just not my choice.”

—————————————–

You sir have taken the award for the most ignorant comment of the year, prior to getting into RE I was a Refrigeration/chiller mechanic fixing large commercial equipment, I don’t care how many degrees and letters you have after your name because If I took you to any of these systems you wouldn’t have a clue where to start, working on equipment that draw over 150amps and 600 volts all day long that could fry you like bug. Oh, and yes I forgot about those pesky boilers that can blow a small city into oblivion.

It takes at least 10 years to become a decent mechanic and not a day less, don’t let your ignorance cloud your mind.

I was also making 6 figures year after year doing this ‘uneducated’ job which is a lot more then people with ‘educated’ degrees are making today.

#129 TurnerNation on 07.29.13 at 8:11 am

Checking the news this am. Vulture funds played our little shell. Kanada we hardly knew ya?

Warding off Nordstroms and others.

Hudson’s Bay Co. (HBC), the operator of Canada’s largest department store chain, agreed to acquire Saks Inc. (SKS) for $2.9 billion including debt.


The transaction brings together Hudson’s Bay, Lord & Taylor and Saks Fifth Avenue brands, creating a company that will operate 320 stores in North America.

#130 European on 07.29.13 at 8:14 am

NorthAmericans: before bashing the Steves of Canada and the US, take a step back and think about how short our history is, when compared to Europeans’ and Asians’.

Well, in all long-lasting societies, there were multiple generations in one dwelling (which however was built to last generations, unlike our shacks).

Living together with parents and grandparents has multiple benefits: much better education for our kids, a way longer-lasting family (look a divorce rates statistics in North-America compared to Europe and Asia), and in general, more _genuine_ happiness. Grandparents can see their grandkids more often, and in turn young parents are free to live a normal live (going out etc.) without being continually tied to their kids, or stressed by seeking and hiring nannies.

Here we’re sold, ad nausea, the lie with the “freedom” of moving out and living on our own, with “our family”. But what real freedom is there when living out in the suburbs, wasting 2-3 hours/day commuting, half the weekend shopping to keep the household going, and generally being one paychecque away from bankruptcy, as most of the population is.

Canada would arguably be happier, and more sustainable if it would be following the European housing model.

#131 johnanddagney on 07.29.13 at 8:25 am

#111 Smartalox
No not trying to paint one party any better than another. All rife with corruption. Merely using the civil servants “living large and offering little value on taxpayers dime” in exchange for their Liberal vote as just one example of said corruption. The stranglehold they have on elections via “working families coalition” money to keep corrupt Ontario government in power is another example: Ornge air, ehealth, olg. Doesn’t matter who is in power. Corruption runs deep. Too big and deep for us. Thrown in our cards and left the game.

#132 CP on 07.29.13 at 8:27 am

I’m 30, have lived on my own since I was 15, and cannot believe some of the cellar dwellers my age. I spent several years trying to get my life on track after arriving in the the big smoke in Oct. ’99 with 2 bags, a box, and $50 in my pocket (and an incomplete grade 10 education). Since then I have obtained my GED, been accepted and attended FT studies at U of T through academic bridging (I know, big whoop), held down 2 long term jobs in that time (6 years at a large health care organization and almost 6 years now at a large insurance company). I have managed to pay off all debt, have almost $20,000 in my company stock plan along with another $10,000 in my RRSP and $30,000 in my RPP. I have $1000 cash in an emergency fund at home along with $5000 worth of silver (I know Garth……). As well I have another $5000 worth of “vacation/fun” money in the orange guy’s shorts. Also I paid off the $4000 engagement ring in 12 months…. which I’m particularly proud of. Keep in mind, I’ve done this all on a $40k salary (less while working at the health care org).

My point is this: I don’t have the world’s best work ethic. And I lack motivation and drive, but I understand how the world works. To see someone my age still living at home, suckling off the parental teet, makes me sick. You’re only screwing yourself in the long run and unfortunately it’ll take some time them to figure that out.

I’d love to buy things and go out for dinner 4 times a week, I’d love to travel to the UK and watch my beloved team play in their home stadium…. but I resist spending all I have, sleeping all I want (and believing everything I hear). I know that life’s biggest challenges (and expenses) are still to come and I’m preparing for them. Thats not to say I do not live for today, but I always think about tomorrow.

Just wanted to share (we’re not all lost causes). Thanks for all that you do Garth.

#133 fancy_pants on 07.29.13 at 8:28 am

Good thing McGuilty had such great vision for the future and set up a plan to solve such a dilema before he ran with his tail between his legs!

Enter stage left for province of Ontario: Full time kindergarten to the rescue!

quote from Ontario govt website:
“It provides kids with a strong foundation for future learning, so they can go on to postsecondary education and get a good job.”

See, the Ontario liberals have such an acute awareness for the future that they actually addressed this issue of basement dwellers – nothing can go wrong for the kids who went to kindergarten.

And it is a good thing they will have great jobs b/c they will need it with the debt of funding this program. The legacy will live forever.

The Ontario Conservatives campaigned in support of full-time kindergarten in the 2011 election. — Garth

#134 jaguar on 07.29.13 at 8:30 am

People who bring children into the world have two obligations. To give them everything they can to help them succeed in life, and most importantly to prepare them for the real world. This practice of helicoptering parenting certainly is not preparing them for life. Some young people have no ability to problem solve because their parents have been doing all the thinking for them. Every activity planned, every decision made for them.

#135 detalumis on 07.29.13 at 8:52 am

I live in a grey-collar original suburb full of people that are 80+ and was surprised to see cave dwelling “boys” in their late 40s and 50s still living in the houses. I think it’s always been there just not as noticeable as today. The ones here are from single child families and that might account for the higher number you see today.

#136 Holy Crap Where's The Tylenol on 07.29.13 at 9:21 am

At one point I had a Steve in the basement, actually two. Two of my sons graduated from University only to find out that they wanted to purchase a property and couldn’t afford it. So what did daddy do? I finished off my basement in musty Oakville. My daughter and her husband together purchased a home (she’s a doctor) easy pic-kins even after paying off her medical school bill. Her husband pulls in enough money to pay for two mortgages. So they are OK. But kids number one and two are not married and made great wages in very secure positions but here in Oakville prices are just insane. My wife and I did not want to become enablers with them so we charged them rent. Unbeknownst to them we locked up the cash as an investment fund whilst they crashed at our humble abode. When they finally woke up and realized that they had to lower their home purchasing expectations here in Oakville they made the correct moves. We gave them the board money we had collected in the investment funds as part of their down payments. Both now own their properties outright and are investing the money properly. My neighbor down the street on the other hand has two of four offspring sticking around the home. I told him I believe they are waiting for your demise to which he grumbled, “I think you’re correct.” Both him and his wife are enablers, they give them cash to help out, free food and boarding, let them use his car (BMW). Here is the best part; both of these two children have good positions paying well. They both have cars and he is paying for their insurance and fuel. The kids live the good life partying at local clubs, boating on the weekends in Mommy and Daddies cabin cruiser down at the harbor. Why would you want to move out on your own and tough it out? These kids will never move out and he and his wife are stuck with them. I said it’s a good thing his home is a
McManison with ample room so he doesn’t even have to run into them every day! Perhaps that is the problem? He is avoiding the issue!

#137 Holy Crap Where's The Tylenol on 07.29.13 at 9:25 am

#134 CP on 07.29.13 at 8:27 am

Now that is a kid with his head in the right place. Kudos to you CP. You will do well in life with an attitude such as you have!

#138 Agio on 07.29.13 at 9:39 am

There is absolutely no need for the boomers or their offspring. Bunch of high-expectation underachieving twits (present company excluded of course) Good thing these people can buy slip-ons or have the parents buy for them because most of em can’t even tie their own fkn shoelaces.

#139 Mr Buyer on 07.29.13 at 9:47 am

This is like shouting at a windstorm. No amount of name calling and cajoling is going to change the lay of the land which is very different from when we working class heroes did it our way. Sure the boomers are getting burnt during this sociological upheaval that we are a part of but it is not like we did not have ample chance to secure futures for our offspring. This is living at home forever is only going to become more prevalent. A sharp person would try to profit on it maybe by having businesses that cater to the stay at home adult kids. It is not the time to do it yet but the numbers will justify such ventures sooner than later. Just ask the Japanese. We are planning for extended stay kids now and the oldest is currently 8.

#140 canadian ex-pat on 07.29.13 at 9:49 am

I feel quite sorry for young Canadian men these days, it seems not even their parents want them, let along employers and their female cohort.

They’ve grown up in a society that calls them monsters and pits them in competition with a generation of Hermoine Grangers who have the backing of an entire government structure from cradle to grave.

The only support system they have has convinced themselves that throwing them to the dogs is the best thing for them.

No wonder the Canadian birthrate is so low. I wouldn’t want to contribute a son to that kind of culture either.

#141 economictsunami on 07.29.13 at 9:51 am

At the risk of being labelled an “American hater” or “doomer” provided is a link to a good article about recent US housing activity:

“Housing” – Is It Really Recovering?

http://www.streettalklive.com/daily-x-change/1774-housing-is-it-really-recovering.html

As in the US & Canada, incentives/ stimulus provide positive industry/ economic data points; that can be understandably misleading…

Posted a few times already. More of the same chatter that was wrong two years ago. — Garth

#142 Daisy Mae on 07.29.13 at 10:06 am

#51 OlderButWiser: “….I like having him at home and we can easily afford to help him out and save for our retirement.”

*****************

A woman, widowed at a very young age and never remarried, has three of her four adult kids living with her…and she likes it that way. These three will never marry and have families of their own. Abnormal as hell.

#143 rosie "moving forward" on 07.29.13 at 10:18 am

The economic reset we are all in has winners and losers, lots of losers. The future of labour looks a lot like the labour movement of yesteryear. Low paying menial factory jobs became high paying menial secure jobs after many battles. The service sector is all thats left so here we go again. http://www.salon.com/2013/07/29/fast_food_strikes_intensify_in_seven_cities/

#144 TheCatFoodLady on 07.29.13 at 10:26 am

I for one am not heaping scorn on every twentysomething or older who still lives under the parental roof. As pointed out in the comments there are quite often sound personal & family reasons for doing so & it works for EVERYONE involved. My community has a lot of Portuguese families & multi-generational households are a norm. The elders get discrete supervision as they age, yet maintain the dignity of independence. The younger set can save for long term goals.

It’s undeniably tough out there & staying under the parental roof for some extra years can work in many ways for all involved.

My beef is with the leeches who think staying at home is a free pass. They pay no rent, do no work around the place & if you do see them before noon, about all you see is their butt sticking out of the open fridge as they forage for goodies.

Staying at home with a plan, worked out between those living in the home – mom/dad/ cellar dweller is fine in my eyes. It makes a great deal of sense for many.

However, parents who let the wanna be adults sponge, who risk their OWN futures by bleding their bank accounts are nuts. Or wimps. When ‘Steve’ bleeds you dry & 15 years from now you need financial help to get a decent seniors’ residence, will Steve have the assets to help out? Will Steve have any inclination to do so?

Like investing, no one size fits all but as parents, when your adult child proposes staying home “for a while so I can…”, think hard. Ask about plans. Insist on solid ones. Get something on paper. If they’re old enough to vote, drink, drive Harleys & buy Real Estate, why treat them like little people wearing the largest size of Pull Ups?

Emergencies are different. When your 26 year old adult child phones tou at oh dark thirty after coming home from a short business trip & tells you the spouse & kids are gone, accounts cleaned out & “Oh God dad, what do I do?”, that’s different. THAT is when our adult kids need to lean – hard & when no parent worth their salt wouldn’t do whatever they could to help. Unless there’s something hinky going on.

#145 Steven on 07.29.13 at 10:32 am

Steve lives in the same world I do except I live in a second floor 351 square foot apartment that is like a sun room. Maximum potential pay rate if employed regardless of job, experience and education. $10.25 to $15.00 an hour. Hours if any variable. Chance of living like parents zero. Chance of finding a mate that is female ,straight and normal almost zero. Chance of being politically correct or gay zero. Chance of buying first home before death almost zero. Respect for government and society zero. I am almost 53 and the Steve in the essay is 26 and the world as we know it is a big fat zero.
I have the dubious benefit of experience while Steve will find out the hard way. Steve will find out that he needs to start off being rich to start his life at all and he will be expected to work for pay rates that are 40 years out of date and use his pay to pay a fortune for everything. If he ever gets married he will be under constant threat of economic or legal problems due to the actions, laws and opinions of others. As the man he will not be the master and head of his house and family if any. He will be a slave and a suspect. A pretty crappy situation if you ask me.

The problem started back in the 1960s when government started running up its debt, changed the rules, debased the currency and allowed real estate to be an investment instead of just a place to live.
Believe it or not Garth that is not my fault. It is the fault of the political, financial, politically correct elites and the media. They turned the western world into a jewish ,feminist ,communist, homosexual whorehouse and a rich man’s country club complete with hyper inflated real estate prices. This unfortunate reality has got to go and never ever come back. This problem with the world is not in my head as you are thinking. It is an on going problem outside in the real world. From the top down the world as we know it is all wrong and its got to go! Expect young Steve to lose his basement bed room and wind up on the street with or without having a job. If he finds an apartment the rent will consume the bulk of his after tax pay and if he saves and invests the market will rob him one way or another.
As for buying a house forget it. Instead of being asked to pay equal to or less than 3 years pay he will be expected to pay 5 to 10 times that or 15 to 30 years pay and all that is on the initial nominal price of the home. Add in the interest and taxes and the price tag will be far higher. Giving into the financial buggery dished out by the real estate market is a no win situation. Unless the price of real estate is capped and a zero added to minimum wages the only other way forward is to crash or abolish the whole system and start over from scratch with everything. What you own and possess is what you start with.

#146 economictsunami on 07.29.13 at 10:32 am

“Posted a few times already. More of the same chatter that was wrong two years ago. — Garth”

Perhaps defending your US housing narrative could become a thought provoking post someday?

People have said you’ve been wrong for years about your Canadian Residential RE claims but I have defended you as merely being early.

Personally I prefer to disarm an opposite point of view, as opposed to being dismissive…

US housing starts have improved 38% in a year. The latest Case-Shiller shows a 12% advance in average prices in a year. New home prices are ahead 7.4%. Mortgage applications remain robust despite an increase in rates. As unemployment fell from the 10% range to the 7% level, car sales recovered to volumes of four years ago and the banks’ shadow inventory faded, the recovery in housing has been irrefutable. This it-ain’t-real chatter has been incessant, and universally wrong. The US real estate market is still wounded, but dramatically improved. It is good news, not the portent of further collapse. — Garth

#147 Daisy Mae on 07.29.13 at 10:37 am

#132 European: “….and in turn young parents are free to live a normal live (going out etc.) without being continually tied to their kids, or stressed by seeking and hiring nannies.”

********************

That doesn’t sound particularly appealing from a ‘grannie’ point of view. How about OUR stress level? After all, we’ve ‘been there, done that’ — no longer have the patience or the stamina — and now we are free to pursue our interests. Fnally.

#148 HAWK on 07.29.13 at 10:38 am

LOL its amazing the amount of anti-children, anti-men, anti-family attitude this blog has.

No wonder all over the “developed” world the birthrate has dwindled to below replacement levels and immigration is filling the vacuum.

Well good luck with that, the end game will kick in a few decades from now.

#149 RandyMachoManSavage on 07.29.13 at 10:44 am

#135 fancy_pants on 07.29.13 at 8:28 am
Good thing McGuilty had such great vision for the future and set up a plan to solve such a dilema before he ran with his tail between his legs!

The Ontario Conservatives campaigned in support of full-time kindergarten in the 2011 election. — Garth

Liberals, Conservatives, it’s all the same. Big promises going into election time, followed by misspent money and broken promises.

Then get involved. — Garth

#150 Daisy Mae on 07.29.13 at 10:44 am

#134 CP: “I’d love to buy things and go out for dinner 4 times a week, I’d love to travel to the UK and watch my beloved team play in their home stadium…. but I resist spending all I have, sleeping all I want (and believing everything I hear). I know that life’s biggest challenges (and expenses) are still to come and I’m preparing for them. Thats not to say I do not live for today, but I always think about tomorrow.”

**********************

Good for you. Every generation has had similar experiences. It forces us to mature and become responsible adults.

#151 RandyMachoManSavage on 07.29.13 at 10:47 am

Looking to sock away some coin in my TFSA trading account. Just noticing there are many REIT bargains, in particular RioCan (REI.UN) at 6.3 price per earnings. Good time to jump in?

#152 m on 07.29.13 at 10:49 am

Good grief, the kid has got to get a life! Back in the late 80’s, there was a sit com called “Get a Life” about a 20 something guy who just refused to move out of the house. Maybe they have it on Netflix and the parents can make the kid watch it.

#153 RandyMachoManSavage on 07.29.13 at 10:54 am

#147 Steven on 07.29.13 at 10:32 am
Steve lives in the same world I do except I live in a second floor 351 square foot apartment that is like a sun room. Maximum potential pay rate if employed regardless of job, experience and education. $10.25 to $15.00 an hour.
….

Whoa, do you really believe everyone makes between $10-$15 per hour? I graduated from university less than 10 years ago, myself, and all my university friends are gainfully employed making over $60k. A buddy’s wife is a doctor currently doing her specialist and will likely see $400000k+ income. Hardly the $10-15 per hour you mentioned.

Maybe Steve is in a funk with low expectations. If there aren’t any jobs in his field that pay well, he should retrain. If school isn’t an option, perhaps he could do an internship with Smoking Man to learn to lie, cheat, sell, and be wealthy.

#154 Daisy Mae on 07.29.13 at 10:57 am

#146 CatFoodLady: “Emergencies are different. When your 26 year old adult child phones tou at oh dark thirty after coming home from a short business trip & tells you the spouse & kids are gone, accounts cleaned out & “Oh God dad, what do I do?”, that’s different. THAT is when our adult kids need to lean – hard & when no parent worth their salt wouldn’t do whatever they could to help.”

*********************

There are ALWAYS exceptions. And this is one of them. We must be able to depend on family during a crisis.

#155 Nattie on 07.29.13 at 11:01 am

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with living with your parents at any age – IF you’re paying your fair share. That’s a roommate who happens to be related to you. Cool.

Living with your parents and not even paying groceries and utilities, not to mention market rent? When you’re not even a full-time student? When your parents are struggling themselves? Absolutely disgusting.

Sure, the jobs just aren’t out there for some people (arts vs. trades, relocation for work etc. is another story.)

But virtually anyone in any major Canadian city can find 35hrs/week at a minimum-wage job (or combine two jobs to equal 35 hours.) McDonalds is always hiring, restaurants always need dishwashers, hotels and commercial buildings always need cleaners, and retail always needs shop clerks. With this, you will earn approx $1400/month after taxes. That’s $600/month to pay your parents towards rent&utilities, $200/month towards groceries, $100 for a bus pass, $100 for your cell, $200 to play, and $200 to put towards training for a better job.

I’m not a boomer. I’m a 25-year-old woman who moved out at 18 and stayed out. I love my parents and visit them as much as possible, but I’m an adult and they’re adults. When I’m there for more than a long weekend, I buy a load of groceries, do their laundry, and start dinner. When my dad asks if I want money, I say no. Why? Respect. When they had a kid they didn’t sign up to be a maid/ATM for the rest of their lives.

#156 Steven on 07.29.13 at 11:03 am

Re:#100 Vangrrl on 07.28.13 at 11:22 pm
#83 Marginal:
‘Western/non-ethnic culture’ makes absolutely no sense. Everyone on the planet has an ethnicity.

In the lands of the white man, white people are not allowed to have an ethnicity or culture that suits their needs or tastes. It is the fear of white tribalism that has led to being white being made politically incorrect illegal and slated for extinction. The reforms started in the 1960s and the greed of the real estate market and the insignificance of pay rates are a means to that end.
They are killing us slowly one legal reform, one price increase at a time. Raise the prices and freeze the pay rates more or less and pretty soon people are being paid nothing.
Very diabolical indeed!

Whites are not going extinct, but you soon will be if you keep it up. — Garth

#157 Ralph Cramdown on 07.29.13 at 11:04 am

#147 economictsunami — “Perhaps defending your US housing narrative could become a thought provoking post someday?”

As suspect as it is to suggest a one-stop-shopping portal for all your US housing data needs, I shall do so. Garth isn’t an econ major, and he isn’t focused on US housing, so why should he have to defend a viewpoint shared by others who are?

http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/ is a superb US econ blog, with a particular emphasis on the US housing market. Bill McBride believes we’ve seen the bottom in US resale house prices, and in new home sales.

If you want an education in what a housing bubble and bust looks like in real time, you probably couldn’t do better than to start with his post #2 from January 2005 at http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2005/01/housing-prices-asset-bubble.html
…and keep clicking on ‘Newer Post.’ You’ll see most of the same arguments which are trotted out in Canada, most of the same lender, builder and agents’ stories and denials, and a man (and woman, RIP Tanta) who saw through just about all of it. Pretty much every trick, misrepresentation and fraud I’ve read about in Canada, I read about there first.

N.B. The comment section there blossomed into something really great for a while, but has degenerated into a similar collection of doomers and weirdos as is seen here. Must be some odd version of Gresham’s law at work…

#158 Craig on 07.29.13 at 11:04 am

What goes around comes around…

It’s the majority of the Baby boomers that elected our current government who created the house porn industry and turned so many boomers into “millionaires” just by owning an house. They then used their new found riches to get themselves a HELOC and spend, spend, spend. Now their kids can’t afford the lifestyle their parents had 20 years ago so they lay dormant in the basements. Classic.

If you have kids still living at home at 26… You did it to yourself.

#159 George on 07.29.13 at 11:19 am

Here’s a good one for Crack Shack or Mansion that shows how insane our real estate prices are.

You can buy Chuck Norris’ mansion in Texas for $1.2 million:
http://life.nationalpost.com/2013/07/24/chuck-norris-walker-texas-ranger-mansion-on-the-market-for-1-2-million-probably-a-dollar-for-every-roundhouse-kick-that-took-place-there/

Or you can buy this crack shack on Granville Street in Vancouver for $1.375 million:
http://www.ecorealtyinc.ca/listing?id=260252655

#160 Old Man on 07.29.13 at 11:21 am

I take note that many of you feel down because of low earnings and there is no hope. Get excited about starting a small service or product business on the web to earn some extra part-time money using computer technology. Put some effort into starting something with a tiny flame, as it might turn into a roaring fire.

#161 Things are a lot diff now than 30, 20, and even 10 years ago on 07.29.13 at 11:37 am

Things are a lot diff now than 30, 20, and even 10 years ago.

Not every 26 year old living at home is a failure to launch, as long as they are contributing and working towards something, as has been commented.

In fact its a logical choice for many successful 26 year olds these days to live with their parents, if they have that option, as an alternative to renting, as buing a “starter” or “bachelor/ette” pad doesn’t make sense anymore.

To all the boomers out there (who created this situation in the first place) lets illustrate:

10 years ago: nice starter condo 150k + 12k + condo fees + utilities – this was affordable and attainable for successful 26 year olds within 3 years of saving; they could buy with cash

Today: same nice starter condo 310k + 17k realtor + higher condo fees + higher utilities – this is not affordable anymore; even with almost 50% down its still cheaper to just rent with the money they would spend on just the condo fees, utilities, and all the extras that come with owning a condo. But we all know renting is a waste of money, so the logical alternative is to stay put until you have to rent.

Very simple logic, and its not going to change unless the prices come down to earth compared to the incomes again.

Most 26 year olds don’t have families they have to house so there is no pressure to move out and upsize.

Why would a 26-year-old need a ‘starter condo’? Is that like training wheels? — Garth

#162 TryThisThought on 07.29.13 at 11:40 am

It takes to age 25-26 to complete a masters degree in business, for example. The stats have to be adjusted to exclude those still at school, or freshly out of it. With high cost of education, living with parents while at university or shortly thereafter is the proverbial ‘new normal’. Things might not be as bad as the stats you quoted suggest.

#163 Not new on 07.29.13 at 11:42 am

These is for those who don’t know about GVRD: you need to volunteer for free or standby, have a vehicle, have a smarthphone, have access to internet, or even have a house before you can get a minimum-paid job even as a dishwasher, a care-giver for less than 20 hours. So, before you guys trash your kids who don’t go get a job, please put yourselves in their shoes first!

#164 Mister Obvious on 07.29.13 at 11:53 am

#150 Hawk

“LOL its amazing the amount of anti-children, anti-men, anti-family attitude this blog has.

No wonder all over the “developed” world the birthrate has dwindled to below replacement levels and immigration is filling the vacuum.

—————————
The main cause of lower birth rates is the increasing education of women.

It has little to do with the degradation of western family values, as you seem to suggest, and much more to do with decreasing misogyny the world over .

Let that sink in a bit. Women get smarter, children get fewer. It happens. There is no moral significance.

#165 Old Man on 07.29.13 at 11:58 am

#163 – So the boomers created this situation in the first place? Those are fighting words, so do tell us all about it, as need to be educated in this latest conspiracy. Thank-you!

#166 Mixed Bag on 07.29.13 at 12:05 pm

Boot the kid out early, let them stay ’til married (if ever) ….

It’s all boils down to propagating your genes. Will you create a human who will learn to survive, who can then propagate your genes, by giving them the boot? Or do you ensure their survival by giving them a roof over their heads?

I have no problem with adult children living at home if it’s mutually beneficial, or if they are young and getting their lives on track. I do have a problem with parents paying for large and recurring expenses for adult children – hello Steve’s mom, did your child never have a summer job? Are you proud of him? Be honest with yourself. No excuses about this or that issue coming up, because kids with far less resources have done far more, likely because they knew no one else would do it for them.

Steve’s mom and dad need to talk amongst themselves and come to an agreement on how to raise their son, something they should have done a long time ago.

#167 DM in C on 07.29.13 at 12:07 pm

#165 — “you need to…..have a smarthphone, have access to internet, or even have a house before you can get a minimum-paid job even as a dishwasher, a care-giver for less than 20 hours.”

That statement is just SO much crap, I don’t know where to begin. Victim mentality and entitlement, much? You don’t ‘need’ any of that. And employers and checking to see if their dishwashers own a house, eh? And if they do, do they check to see how much BC bud they are selling on the side to afford it? Cripes what an asinine statement.

#168 Canadian ex-pat on 07.29.13 at 12:10 pm

#166 Mister Obvious on 07.29.13 at 11:53 am

Youre being silly. Being pro-family and pro-male is in no way “misogynist” unless you are a concern troll.

This whole obsession about education in a western sense as being the only measure of education is so very ethnocentric. Are women in the third world somehow “less intelligent” because they know nothing of western education?

Are you so misogynist that you believe women must conform to the western patriarchal education system that measures intelligence by grades and credentials?

Your ethnocentrism is showing.

#169 rosie "moving forward" on 07.29.13 at 12:16 pm

Apparently, they can’t help it. They are victims of everything being unfair. Organize your workplace or start your own business. http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/07/26/millenials-and-anxiety_n_3652976.html

#170 DonDWest on 07.29.13 at 12:16 pm

#134 CP

“As well I have another $5000 worth of “vacation/fun” money in the orange guy’s shorts. Also I paid off the $4000 engagement ring in 12 months….”

RED ALERT! Condition red! All hands brace for impact!

#171 CalgaryFloodBoom on 07.29.13 at 12:16 pm

FirstPlaceBob update:

Well since the “Exploit the flood” marketing angle quickly fizzled, FirstPlaceBob from Calgary is going for the “There’s Nothing to Rent angle” in his latest blog post.

The logic is and I quote form his blog:

“Calgary is now among the fastest-growing cities in North America, according to new civic census data released this week, and Panchuk(another Calgary realtor) expects the narrowing rental market will force many would-be renters to buy instead.”

Of course, everyone is now going to buy instead of rent, so hurry!

Will somebody buy something from Bob please!
I’m getting worried.

#172 NoOneOfConsequence on 07.29.13 at 12:17 pm

I really like how you get everyone all fired up Garth!

I love how arrogant, proud, and egotistical all these “tough love” parents are!

It’s the “Classic Boomer Entitlement” attitude, version 2.

“I wanna go out and , so hit the street kid!”.

Boomers have promised themselves fat pensions, sweet government goodies, thinking that they earned it, in yet it has been completely financed by debt spending.

Who has to pay the debt? NOT THE BOOMERS…OH NO, NOT THEM. The kids get to pay it by being tax slaves to the government for the rest of their natural lives.

Take, take, take, spend, spend, spend….that’s all boomers are good for. Health care costs are just getting going…

Had boomers not embarked on their orgy of debt fueled consumption and greedy self-entitlement programs, Steve wouldn’t be in the basement.

Let’s talk about unfunded liabilities…tell me that these problems coming are not a direct result of boomer greed and short-sightedness.

Go ahead, kick Steve out now.

Does that mean Steve can kick Grandpa out of his retirement center after he blows a half million in healthcare costs? After all, that health challenged senior won’t be “paying his way” any longer….

How come it’s never as simple as boomers make it out to be? Oh yeah…because they got to do it with debt in a relentless rising income environment.

#173 DonDWest on 07.29.13 at 12:22 pm

#162 Old Man

Why would people buy products from my website when they can buy those same products cheaper directly from the website of the manufacturer? The easy e-money of 1990’s are gone buddy – Internet surfers are a lot smarter than they used to be. . .

#174 Sideline Sitter on 07.29.13 at 12:26 pm

@163

10 years ago: nice starter condo 150k + 12k + condo fees + utilities – this was affordable and attainable for successful 26 year olds within 3 years of saving; they could buy with cash

buy with cash? no chance.

10 years ago I was 26 (funny how that math works out) and I was still living at home (paying back OSAP). But, let’s imagine I didn’t have $50K to pay back to OSAP and added that to my downpayment, when I DID make my first purchase in 2005 (8 years ago), then I would have had just $70K to buy a place.

Not even close to buying a condo “with cash”.

If you’re going to create a story, make it plausible.

#175 Old Man on 07.29.13 at 12:35 pm

#172 – the boomers have estates and are kicking the bucket daily, so guess where the money goes virtually tax free? It flows to the past generation which is their children, and even the grandchildren. The wealth earned by the boomers is distributed back in time, so all is well. Get it now?

#176 Mister Obvious on 07.29.13 at 12:44 pm

Yep, its different now.

For about 3 months at 18 years of age I was a high school grad lying about the house and not getting on with any particular program. Then my father came to my rescue with a brilliant three part plan:

1. get a haircut
2. get a job
3. get out

He was twice the man I was or ever will be. He took a leg full of shrapnel at Normandy and continued fighting for the liberation of Europe for the next year witnessing untold horrors. He returned home to a government and society that was largely indifferent to that sacrifice. He silently battled demons of post traumatic stress (unheard of in those days but very real). He raised and provided for a family all with a grade 10 education.

I wasn’t fit to shine his shoes but he still loved me enough to come up with that three-part formula for success and help me see it through. R.I.P. Dad.

#177 Whitekat on 07.29.13 at 1:00 pm

@TheAmerican,

I am happy for you that you know all about the USA’s unique to the world policy of taxing ‘US persons’ no matter if they earn all their income outside the USA, and don’t live in the USA. However, millions of ‘US persons’ abroad are going through one of the most stressful events in their lives finding out after years of living outside of USA (50 years out of 51 for me) that they are considered ‘tax evaders’ by the USA, and that the USA is determined to find them through FATCA.

@Garth,
I apologize for my last post. My paranoia is getting to me, and I had a few too many glasses of wine that night.

#178 Old Man on 07.29.13 at 1:05 pm

#175 DonDWest – will answer that as not just a unique product that can be sold, but a service needed in your immediate community. I hit a website that a woman was selling bars of soap with a variety of fragances which she was making in her home. On youtube it shows how this all can be done, as she had a cottage business on the web selling for big money. I went through her inventory, and saw sold out here and there, as payments were being made via PayPal.

There are people with money who will buy, as she had a following placing orders for her homemade fragrance soap bars as her part-time business that she shipped all over North America. It is never a question to rationalize this all, as she was making money as a part-time job. So perhaps her day job was paying $11.00 an hour, but at night was busy with her small business.

#179 Ralph Cramdown on 07.29.13 at 1:08 pm

#170 Canadian ex-pat — “This whole obsession about education in a western sense as being the only measure of education is so very ethnocentric. Are women in the third world somehow “less intelligent” because they know nothing of western education?”

Yep. I could give a longer and more nuanced answer, but the question is so prima facie silly that I won’t waste the effort.

#180 Whitekat on 07.29.13 at 1:08 pm

@Garth,

Actually, I think the wine drinking started in the afternoon. Oh god, does this mean I am starting to become a female SmokingMan?

#181 Underemployed_&_Overeducated on 07.29.13 at 1:13 pm

My parents were working class renters back in the time when working class renters still lived in Vancouver. I had a full time job at age 16. I moved out at 18 in the late 1990s. I remained steadily employed for the next several years. I worked minimum wage retail jobs. Sometimes I had one full time job, sometimes I had two part-time jobs. I was always working but I never got ahead. I watched the kids I went to school with staying at home with their parents and not start working until early 20s. If they knew the right people they got good jobs. Parents gave them money for down payments on homes. I had been working since 16, more job experience and more life experience than those other kids who were passing me by because the parents gave them a place to stay as adults. That was never an option for me because my parents rental home was too cramped and falling apart for me to stay. Sick of watching everyone pass me by and sick of working for the stupidest managers on the planet, in the mid-part of the first decade of the 2000s I started university. I graduated with a BA in the social sciences, top of my class. I did the BA all on student loans because I had no money–I had a job but all that money went to rent–if I reduced my hours for school, no money for rent. There was no choice but get a student loan. Then went on to do a master’s degree. The master’s degree was on full scholarship since I did so well for my BA, so at least I didn’t add to my student loan debt. Now it’s been a few years since I have been out of school and $50k+ in student loan debt. With a master’s degree I am getting worse jobs than the retail crap I had before I started university. I regret going to university–it was wrong to try to get ahead because it set me back. I should have been happy with menial retail jobs because at least they were full-time. Now I get worse jobs, but I have the student loan debt. Everything is part time. Everything is low wage. Cost of living is higher than ever and income is lower than it was before I went to university. Being older, I’m starting to lose my chutzpah. I mean, I was a real go-getter in my late teens and early 20s. Customers used to be so impressed by me they would say one day you will run this store. But now I feel broken. I’ve had a good attitude, I’ve worked hard since I was 16, I got excellent grades in university. The kids who didn’t start working until mid-twenties living at home with their parents are in better financial shape than me. Expectations from employers are higher than ever. It is true that many employers want you to have a vehicle and a cell phone, as someone mentioned. Sorry to have to bring this up, but a lot of the jobs in Vancouver right now require you to speak Mandarin. I never learned Mandarin in school so I am SOL when it comes to a lot of jobs. Family obligations keep me in Vancouver, otherwise I’d be gone in a heart beat. Baby boomers and older generations in the family look at me in judgment. They just don’t understand why I’m such a loser. My shifts are very short–usually two to four hours. Sometimes I go in early even though I am not being paid and I do work without being paid just so that I can feel like I am working and I have somewhere to be. It’s not natural for a man in his 30s to have so much free time. It starts to destroy your spirit. Baby boomers have no idea. Don’t get me started on real estate prices. I’ll be happy to rent forever,all I want is a job so I can afford the rent. At the rate I am going it’s not long before I will be homeless. It’s a funny thing, I wonder how many homeless people had master’s degrees back in the 1980s compared to in the coming years. I think that is something we’ll see more of in the future. Trying to keep a positive attitude but I just wanted to share this with the blog dogs out there. I am not looking for sympathy, but I am also hoping not to get any insults either. Usually, when you write a comment like this people chastise you for getting a degree in basket weaving and tell you to take up trades and move to Fort Mac. I can’t do that for a number of reasons. My degree taught my a great deal, but nobody values critical thinking these days so there is no way I can meaningfully contribute what I learned in school in a job environment where it’s all about image and positive spin.

#182 Dupcheck on 07.29.13 at 1:26 pm

Staying or moving out, a grown ass man at his age should help his parents out. Laziness did not build homes, cars, roads, cities, countries, etc. Get off your butt and grab life from the horns. Start with shitty jobs if you cant find better and work your way up. I guess these moochers have not seen hardships. No one hands out things, you need to get them, work for them, earn them. Car payments paid by parents? What happened to old cars? Take the PS3 away from the bastard. Cut the cable use outdoor antenna, he does not need 190 channels to find a job or watch the news. Go volunteer and earn experience, ohh there are so many things that can open doors. Poor Steve, has a car, internet, computer, food, running water, electricity, phone, shelter, and can not find a job. You are choosing to be a looser dude, wake up do not be a bad son to your parents!!!!

#183 eddy on 07.29.13 at 1:30 pm

Humans are tribal. Many ethnic groups have multiple generations under one roof. The individual is powerless.

#184 Mister Obvious on 07.29.13 at 1:47 pm

#170 Canadian ex-pat

This whole obsession about education in a western sense as being the only measure of education is so very ethnocentric. Are women in the third world somehow “less intelligent” because they know nothing of western education?
———————

Many places in the world consider teaching women to read is a pointless and even dangerous waste of time. More reading = less breeding. Less subservience too.

Are you so misogynist that you believe women must conform to the western patriarchal education system that measures intelligence by grades and credentials?
———————–

Hell no Bubba, they should be cookin’, cleanin’, diggin’ and carrying water. If they do a good job on that they will be rewarded with another mouth to feed.

Your ethnocentrism is showing

Out of respect for Garth and this blog I will not respond to that they way I’d like to.

#185 Godth on 07.29.13 at 1:54 pm

method and madness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ogCc8ObiwQ&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PL574944586782072A

#186 chickenlittle on 07.29.13 at 1:59 pm

#99 Dan:

You ARE crazy! Just think of the extra income doing side jobs on the weekends if you had a trade.
Trades like carpentry, plumbing, and others require knowledge of geometry, chemistry, algebra, and other related knowledge. Even embalming a body requires different ingredients depending on how someone dies. To call these people “unskilled” is a slap in the face. I am sure that Dan the Realtor would have been happy to part you with your hard earned money seeing as fixing an electrical outlet yourself is beyond your comprehension.

Joe in MTL:

The man who wrote that article saved my life! I was doing a placement in a school and the teacher actually would tell me that I didn’t know what I was doing and that the other girls ( the two biggest a$$ kissers ever) were doing such a great job. If they “got it”, why didn’t I? Reading that man’s articles and books made me realize she was the problem, not me. Well, I still had a lot to learn, but you get the picture! Imagine telling that to a student who is there to learn!

#187 European on 07.29.13 at 2:08 pm

#149 @Daisy Mae: “That doesn’t sound particularly appealing from a ‘grannie’ point of view. How about OUR stress level? After all, we’ve ‘been there, done that’ — no longer have the patience or the stamina — and now we are free to pursue our interests.”

DM: sounds like your thinking is “since we sacrificed our young and middle age, let’s have them do the same, and let’s perpetuate the model indefinitely”.

Face it – old age sucks, no matter what marketing and advertising says. Traveling etc. is significantly more fun and rewarding when you’re young and in good physical and mental condition. The best one can do with old age is helping future generations. Money, investments, etc. cannot buy youth. We all have only one shot at youth, and we should enjoy it then, rather than bank it for old age.

I like reading Garth from an economical standpoint, I concur with most of his analyses, but am disappointed when he encourages parents to kick their kids out for the purpose of charging them or others rent instead, and “invest” the proceeds. I get it – it’s his and his brethren’s livelihood, but it should not be imposed on the average citizen.

Sadly, that’s where the North-American _current_ model becomes unsustainable. Because with little or no rent, even a minimum wage salary can provide a decent lifestyle. Like others have mentioned, the financial obligations in our current society are VERY HIGH – and we’re talking about covering the basics, not ridiculous expectations (although youth is very demanding these days, I concede).

But what are we ending up with by going forward with the current, unsustainable model? A good proportion of out population working mundane jobs (late ports show our Canadian workforce consisting mainly of retail workers – hardly a first world ‘best country on earth’ model), and with essentially ZERO chances to step up the ladder. They simply work (hard) to pay rent and food – and to keep the few fat cats on top get even fatter.

It’s time people open their eyes and make the model work, once more!

P.S. I’m surprised that nobody suggested Steve’s parents to have him help along with the family business.

#188 :):( Ying Yang on 07.29.13 at 2:08 pm

#141 Smoking Man on 07.24.13 at 10:55 pm
What a week 3 boys all quit there jobs. Phase 1 of the master plan complete. F the machine ha love it..
Two have a plan, the middle one, needs a bit of work. We will figure it out in Vegas and maybe a bit after.
I love my kids
Get ready for SMOKING MAN OFFSPRING INC

She’s 58. He’s 62. The thing in the basement is 26.
“Steve’s a good kid,” mom says, “and he definitely tries to help around the house.” Dad sees it differently. “He contributes nothing, and expects a boatload. I’m giving him one more year.” So, next summer, Mars and Venus will clash up there on the main floor. I’m betting Steve stays.

Now we need comments from the expert on how to deal with his versions of Steve. I’m betting Smoking Man has all three of his kids in sales of Smoking Man Inc shortly. Do you keep them or cut them lose Smoking Man?
Oh what the hell, you can keep them for spare parts, never know when you will need a new liver?
Keep on Smoking!

#189 Mehdi Allani on 07.29.13 at 2:13 pm

Man I love this blog ! While you have been waiting for the 10% price drop I have been lowering my mortgage since and paying capital. Keep up the good work and keep on waiting, I will be motgage free meanwhile

#190 CP on 07.29.13 at 2:14 pm

@ #172…. fair play :)

Just know that this Sept. we’ll celebrate 14 years together, engaged for 3 this Dec. We’re in no rush… only rush I had was to pay the damn ring off!

#191 Renting and Loving It on 07.29.13 at 2:18 pm

I may only be 50 but I’m seeing more and more where this failure to launch comes from.

Kids (and young adults) being coddled and getting used to having things given to them. Whatever happened to kids just going outside and playing during summer? I know several parent’s who are freaking out if their kids don’t get into summer “camps”. Not just one, but several camps during one summer. Dance classes, this class, that class all year round. Then they complain about not having money and judge those of us who’ve saved and can retire today if we wanted (some of them, while their 16 and 15 year olds sit at home not even working part-time)

How about working part time jobs for $? I wasn’t thankful then, but I am now that my dad dragged put us to work doing things around the house or his office when we were under the age of 12. We also cut grass/shoveled snow for neighbors at that age. After high school we had a choice, stay at home and go to college/University, move out and get a job, or get a job, stay at home AND pay rent.

Thanks Mom and Dad.

#192 Donald Trump on 07.29.13 at 2:34 pm

Well…..women have been suckered in for years…quite sad.

This goes back decades.
Sigmund Freud’s nephew, Edward Bernays, perfected propaganda and marketing.

Smoking was considered a social taboo for women, but Bernays was hired to get women to smoke. He then hired some young ladies to march in a parade with lit cigarettes. This caused a major stir, but achieved the goal of selling smoking as “equality” and women began to smoke.

Women have been brainwashed into believing they can have it all, when unfortunately they find out too late they can’t.

One could see this unfold years ago if one was paying attention.

PS :did you know Gloria Steinem was a CIA agent with a past as murky as Obama’s?

#193 Ralph Cramdown on 07.29.13 at 2:42 pm

“Laziness did not build homes, cars, roads, cities, countries, etc.”

Laziness has been the source of most progress pretty much from the first man who, looking at a horse, asked himself why he should walk everywhere.

#194 brainsail on 07.29.13 at 2:43 pm

“Why We’re Working Less Than Our Parents Did”

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-were-working-less-parents-102800144.html

#195 DM in C on 07.29.13 at 2:44 pm

DM: sounds like your thinking is “since we sacrificed our young and middle age, let’s have them do the same, and let’s perpetuate the model indefinitely”.

We didn’t sacrifice anything. We’re only 43 and have traveled the world and taken the kids to the requisite amusement parks more than twice. We’ve had fun and so have they.

We believe in self-sufficiency and self-reliance — how is requiring someone to contribute to the household after the age of majority perpetuate a model of sacrificing youth? Or should youth be not expected to contribute to households and society at large?

They should continue to travel the world and party while they’re young — on who’s dime, exactly?

#196 sciencemonkey on 07.29.13 at 2:46 pm

I think staying at home is great, as long as the millennial is in school full time or working and paying some fraction (1/3, 1/2) of market rent. It really does allow the millennial to build up savings and get a foundation in training and/or career.

I left home at 25, halfway through grad school, although I would’ve liked to stay longer. As others have mentioned it really does depend on how controlling the parents are and how well everyone gets along.

#197 Old Man on 07.29.13 at 3:03 pm

I will tell you what I did as an up and coming baby boomer in life, as worked my ass off in highschool and university making money all year long. Was a slave in a warehouse operation, and the boss would say can you work a shift until midnight in the shipping area, and would yes; did a gig in a class company on a stone wheel putting swans on fine glass; and worked as an assistant mold maker too. I became a key employee as said no to anyone, and worked until midnight with a government contract on an injection machine making bullet packs for the Canadian Government.

Some of you people are out to lunch about working chit jobs, as have done it all, as we baby boomers worked our ass off as a start in life to save our money, and you cry about hard times with low wages and how hard it is for you going forward in life; so wakeup and do the best in 2013 with smarts to earn a living. Never say no to any employer and become a key player in life when you are asked to work overtime, as the rewards will come for you in the end.

#198 WhiteKat on 07.29.13 at 3:09 pm

As the parent of a 20 year old still living at home with me and her dad, I think the key is balance. I find myself struggling with how much I should give her versus how much should she have to ‘learn the hard way’ like I did.

I must admit I hold some resentment for my parents. If they had not put so much pressure on me to get out the second I graduated high school, and maybe had participated in helping me deal with the ‘real world’ rather than just thrusting me into it, I think I would have made better choices and been a happier, more well adjusted person at a younger age.

My daughter is attending university full-time, but thanks to RESPs her tuition is pretty much covered. She just has to pay for all her extras, and this year since she had a decent summer job, I will make her pay at least for her books and maybe part of her tuition. Rent can wait until she is working full time, but I will encourage her to move out once she is finished university, so hopefully it won’t come to that.

Helping your kids out is good, but you have to be careful not to go overboard. It makes the kids soft, and the parents poor.

#199 Waterloo Resident on 07.29.13 at 3:28 pm

to #183: Underemployed_&_Overeducated =

My answer to your problems is this: GO INTO NURSING !

With an aging population, there is going to be a need for home-care nurses, and even men will be needed for that because of their ability to lift overweight patients. The work will still be temporary and on contract, but the pay is half decent compared to dismal like retail is.

#200 Valerie Keefe on 07.29.13 at 3:29 pm

I absolutely love the moral surety of all these 50-somethings carping about how junior should just get a job, that that’s the natural order of things. Any of these self-riteous bloviators had a look at the wage-productivity ratio recently? The US minimum wage represents about 12% of productivity today down from the 30% it was when they were unwrapping their Alman Brothers records, housing takes up about a quarter of disposable income, and we’re expected to spend a third, and then we wonder why workforce participation’s in the crapper.

Recognize the rules got rewritten somewhere along the line, would you? As for me, I moved out of an abusive home at 20. The irresponsible child was one I left behind, an engineer who kvetched at how high the marginal rate got when he was pulling down twice median wage. Never failed to complain about the mid-single-digit mill rate he was facing on a property that tripled in real value over 12 years.

Oh what us “whiny, entitled,” kids would give for the same angle on the brass ring that you myopic makers of hard choices (for everyone else that is) had.

#201 HD on 07.29.13 at 3:33 pm

#183 Underemployed_&_Overeducated on 07.29.13 at 1:13 pm

Thanks for sharing.

Food for thoughts indeed.

Best,

HD

#202 DUE DILLIGENCE on 07.29.13 at 3:39 pm

Garth, could you touch on the subject of former grow-ups and home inspections. I red some discussions online and it seems that there is a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation. What scared me the most was the requirements one has to fulfill to become home inspector and make $150/hour. Online course and exam to get certified. In one short sentence: very little requirements (probably someone could help you to “pass” the exam and big incentives (the money they make). On top of that almost no liability. And sill me I thought that bubbling home prices
was the biggest problem of real estate in Canada.

#203 Mark on 07.29.13 at 3:47 pm

“With an aging population, there is going to be a need for home-care nurses, and even men will be needed for that because of their ability to lift overweight patients.”

Neither women nor male nurses “lift overweight patients”. They’re forbidden to do so for WCB/OHS reasons.

RN’s (ie: “nurses”) are not in shortage in healthcare. Its the low-cost workers, the personal care aides, who are. As someone who recently had an elderly relative in one of the facilities, I can tell you, its tireless and difficult work. Not to mention the smell of taking old people to the washroom all day long.

#204 BillyBob on 07.29.13 at 3:58 pm

Dan

” And as for a Science or Arts degree, its called getting an education not a trade. You can be an uneducated innumerate bumpkin with a wrench if you want, its just not my choice.”

Hmmm. I’m afraid I may fit your description, as I do not have letters after my name, nor have I darkened the door of any institution of higher learning. Yet when I go to work, I am entrusted with a machine worth $280 million dollars, the lives of nineteen other crew members, and up to 430 passengers who entrust me to deposit them safely on the other side of the globe.

For that mere task, I am rewarded with the pittance of about $16,400 CAD (at current exchange rates – I am paid in USD) every month. Net. Not bad for a high school education, I think?

So you keep your kid’s education, if it makes you feel better. Should look good on the CV when he marches it into Starbucks. All us “innumerate bumpkins” will just keep trying to muddle along…:-)

#205 wonderingwhobenefits on 07.29.13 at 4:13 pm

You mention runaway taxation,where will the money be going, into who’s greedy pockets will the largesse flow. If you’re going to make statements please have the courtesy to follow through with some facts.

In the US the Obama socialists have been on a tax rampage. We see what the future holds for us if we look at the Detroit model of civil service and union leadership. Lets point fingers at the real problem please and stop circling the bush.

In Canada we have a legacy of socialist laws and bureaucrats holding back the current government from rationalizing civic spending. Is this where you’re suggesting the bottleneck is? Will unionized civil servants pensions be the death knell of Canadian democracy?

#206 Oh My on 07.29.13 at 4:34 pm

I am officially beside myself after seeing this:

http://www.manuellafarnsworth.com/ActiveListings.php/Details/85/details

2.4 million (MILLION) for a 3164 sq ft townhouse in Kelowna…in a lowish income rental/lotsda drug houses neighbourhood

OH MY

what does 2.4 million buy you in So Cal these days…or even Mexico?

#207 Devore on 07.29.13 at 4:35 pm

#204 DUE DILLIGENCE

What scared me the most was the requirements one has to fulfill to become home inspector and make $150/hour. Online course and exam to get certified. In one short sentence: very little requirements

Not too many make $150/hour, and it’s not a 9-5, 8 hours a day with vacation and benefits kind of a job. Their effective hourly is much lower than that.

If you need a house inspection, pick a good inspector, it will cost you around $1000-1500, be a day-long event, and worth every penny. Get the bottom of the barrel inspector your realtor “recommends” (and gets a kickback from), you’re gonna get what you pay for.

If you think this is such an easy way to make $150 an hour, after a weekend certification course anyone can pass, why aren’t you rolling it in yourself?

#208 GsAmazon on 07.29.13 at 4:44 pm

Dear Steve,

Don’t be alarmed, but I think I know what’s going on in your parents’ bedroom. Perhaps your father hears a lot of this:

Why should Stevie pay hundreds of dollars of his hard-earned money on ‘someone else’s mortgage’ and live with roommates when he can just stay here for free?

Stevie shouldn’t have to ruin his delicate intestinal flora with ramen noodles when he can have all the home-cooked-organic-bioavailable-food-chow he wants right here!!

I can’t bear the thought of Stevie taking the bus in all weather while my Kia sits in the driveway most days!

If our son has to work for a living, how will he be able to get an unpaid internship or save a down-payment for a condo? My Stevie deserves a head start in every race to the bottom!

Steve, your mom is having a quite natural aversion to the prospect of watching her kid fall flat on his face. She will have to suck up that heartache, as she probably did when you were learning to walk (and you actually did have to fall flat on your face to learn that lesson).

Cooking yourself a meal, transporting yourself from A to B, basic personal hygiene, and managing money are all lessons for before the age of 18. If your parents were effin the dog during your formative years and you missed some of those things, no problem – you can learn all the necessary lessons on your own – people do it all the time.

Don’t hide in your parents’ basement waiting for things to go your way.

Don’t put your life on hold because your MOM made you an offer you can’t refuse.

Steve, my fellow-gen-y-friend, you can totally hack it out there in the world without fresh baked banana bread. Live your life!

#209 Linda Pearson on 07.29.13 at 4:59 pm

#206BillyBob on 07.29.13 at 3:58 pm

Man, you were a lot kinder (and easier) on Dan than his post deserved.

I’m quite certain that when my youngest brother became a tool and die maker his courses included lots of math. I know that he is not innumerate by any stretch of the imagination.

#210 Mikey the Realtor on 07.29.13 at 5:19 pm

#206 BillyBob on 07.29.13 at 3:58 pm

Well said Bill, too many of these white collar types love to sh!t on the blue collar worker without actually knowing what is involved, I’ve had the opportunity to see many uni grads try to enter my trade and most failed, either they were analytically incompetent or not mechanically inclined.

The idea that every tradesman is a ditch digger is what floats around the midget brain of these Starbucks drinker yuppies, they have another thing coming though, if you have no skills in the new world you will be lost, degree or not.

#211 Ralph Cramdown on 07.29.13 at 5:20 pm

#207 wonderingwhobenefits — “In the US the Obama socialists have been on a tax rampage.”

As much as other people might think you’re a trolling kook, I welcome opportunities like this when I’m in the mood. I know intuitively that you’re wrong, but it’s interesting to see HOW wrong you are. So here’s US Federal tax receipts as a fraction of GDP:
http://goo.gl/KFXFRA
Now do the right thing and quote Rick from Casablanca: “I was misinformed.”

#212 Timing is Everything on 07.29.13 at 5:59 pm

“Life’s tough, get a f—ing helmet”

Wimp. We never needed no f__ing helmets.
————————————————–
#206 BillyBob

“Failure to Launch”

‘… a former fighter pilot with the United State Air Force and currently a researcher at MIT studying unmanned aerial vehicles, says she realizes pilots are an endangered species.

“The heyday of the commercial pilot is over,” she says. “The heyday of the fighter pilot is over. We’re going to replace everything with a [drone].”‘

http://tinyurl.com/k2pov64

http://tinyurl.com/lr7hf7z

#213 4 AM Sunrise on 07.29.13 at 6:00 pm

My two cents on the economy:

I judge the health of the economy by how many free samples of food or make-up are handed to me when I’m in the mall or on the street. In the late 90’s as a mischievous student I used to dress up and talk the make-up counter ladies into giving me moisturizer, foundation, face wash, etc. Never had to buy a beauty product. Then 9/11 happened and everything dried up. The free sample activity started to pick up again in about 2007 and is in full swing now, though still not as much as in the late 90’s. The weird thing is that unemployment now is much worse than it was then. So, I conclude that corporations are definitely healthy, so here’s hoping the jobs follow.

************************************

Why does the guy in the bowler hat and the dark blue suit keep hassling me to get a (pre-approved!) $10,000 personal line of credit at prime+4%? Seriously? That’s like, 7%! And when I was out of town, my call logs say that he called 6 times over 3 days! He’s never bugged me so much about a personal LOC before, which makes me wonder if this has something to do with his mortgage business.

#214 rosie "moving forward" on 07.29.13 at 6:09 pm

You can learn a lot from their experiences. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

#215 Kris on 07.29.13 at 6:35 pm

Garth, you’ve talked about the Boomer sales over the next few years putting pressure on prices. If young people are holding back home sales by 10-15-20%, sounds like they’re a significant enough percentage to offset the Boomer selling effect.. No?

If young people help demand for starter homes & condos, isn’t that just the thing to allow everyone else in the housing ‘food chain’ to move up the ladder, and thereby sustain the prices of Boomer mansions?

#216 Debtfree on 07.29.13 at 6:38 pm

He must go? Be very ,very careful what you ask for .

#217 johnnny on 07.29.13 at 6:48 pm

#119 DonDwest-time for a little tit for tat?
I have a job,that if I made a mistake,people could die and I could be featured on TV and newspapers,and possibly a day in court.
It’s called Bridge Inspector.
The young people don’t seem to like this job.
The “new hires”I was training sometimes didn’t feel “comfortable”working at heights.I was a slave to facebook,texting,calls ,etc….Not mine-the trainees.
I could go on and on,as you probably could also,with your simpsons etc..
But why bother.There is 2 sides to every coin.
By the way I’m 59 and regularly hang around 200 feet in the air.Just another day at the office.Wanna see some pics?

#218 johnnny on 07.29.13 at 7:01 pm

I must apologize to the younger people who I insulted with comment #219.This is unlike me and I should have taken a time out after reading a previous comment that disturbed me.
I am very sorry.

#219 Marginal on 07.29.13 at 7:07 pm

#212 Ralph Cramdown
What a pleasure it is to read your comments on this “pathetic blog” (quote supplied by Garth).
Economics has been called the dismal science and I agree it often is when it is subverted for ideological purposes. Thank goodness for evidence based commenters such as yourself.

#220 CrowdedElevatorfartz on 07.29.13 at 7:11 pm

@#183 Underemployed…….

One word.

Paragraphs

#221 JuliaS on 07.29.13 at 11:06 pm

Basement kids are doing the right thing for the wrong reason. They’re minimizing needs – something that’s perfectly normal when job prospects are low, inflation is high and the economy itself is toast. The problem is that many parents are spoiling them instead of having an honest talk.

I come from a European background. Most of my life I shared living spaces with other people – roommates, co-workers, other families. I’m used to places where houses are built to last 100+ years and it actually makes sense for kids to stay at home, hoping to inherit the dwelling.

Kids can stay home as long as they want, as long as they contribute.

Currently I’m in the opposite situation, where I am supporting my parents. As soon as I moved out, they could no longer afford the bills, so I started paying them. I’m living on my own, but economically speaking, would rather be living under one roof (instead of taking care of 2 places).

Here in the West the assumption is that parents have everything, and kids have none. Well, I live in a world, where my parents aren’t retired yet, and if I don’t help out, they’ll be waiting for that age to hit, while living under a bridge. My parents wanted me to stay home when I left. They are the ones with little or no job prospects. I’m relatively young and my job prospects although limited, are plentiful, compared to theirs.

What about all the boomers who lost everything in 2008 and never recovered squat. What about all the parents who are to their necks in debt and jobless – too old for some jobs and overqualified for others? What about families where it’s us – kids, pulling the wagon?

#222 Not new on 07.30.13 at 12:31 am

#165 — “you need to…..have a smarthphone, have access to internet, or even have a house before you can get a minimum-paid job even as a dishwasher, a care-giver for less than 20 hours.”
……………………………..
#169DM in C
That statement is just SO much crap, I don’t know where to begin. …….
________________________
I appreciate you can identify it’s “crap”, which is actually overflowing in GVRD, but if you can’t it coming, you better open your eyes.

Just ask yourself how can these people send their resume without access to internet, how can their get next message for work without a smart phone when all the jobs are stand-by / casual / just-keeping-you and paid by hours. How can you work late night hours, or weekends when no transit going across any of the bridges? Yes, they can warm a chair at McDonald or the curbside lawn for hours until transit starts again, or time for work. That’s what exactly you can see people are doing around GVRD these days!

And for a care-giver, have a vehicle, and a house with an extra room, and insurance paid is exactly what many people asking for these days on their hiring ad. So, if you don’t want any more crap, check it out before you open your eyes next time.

#223 Things are a lot diff now than 30, 20, and even 10 years ago on 07.30.13 at 12:48 am

@176

Well if your successful now at 26, its plausable to make over 80k, and save over 40k/year, or if you sacrificed for 3 years, 10 years ago, thats over 50k/year; 3×50=150k…in 3 years it can happen if you work hard enough

#224 Not new on 07.30.13 at 12:48 am

#169DM in C
That statement is just SO much crap, I don’t know where to begin. …….
________________________
And Oh yeah! Many, I mean really “many” employers will tell people upfront “if you don’t have a vehicle, we can’t hire you as I don’t think you can get to work!” And some also “you need smartphone (or blackberry) to check our updated schedule…”

And “Victim mentality and entitlement” you talked about, yeah, these is today’s new bosses!

#225 milla on 07.30.13 at 1:58 am

Well, the childred did not ask to bring them to this world. Sorry you made them you take care of them. Every one has to pay for their doing

#226 jeff on 07.30.13 at 8:43 am

For all you John Wayne types, the age of walking out the door and starting a family at 22 is over. The age of finding a decent job left with outsourcing to Asia. I do not pity these kids; rather, I wonder what jobs are out there to help them sustain a reasonable livelihood. If you think they are out there you have not researched the market and where probably born in the 50’s. Maybe look at the fraud of 2008 with the toxic real estate derivatives as a starter for causing this mess?

#227 wonderingwhobenefits on 07.30.13 at 10:03 am

tell that to detroit

#228 Start charging rent and your kid will move out! | Feisty Red Hair on 07.30.13 at 10:18 am

[...] Garth Turner’s sharp-tongued blog The Greater Fool, he writes that Canadian federal statistics from 2011 show that 43% of all young [...]

#229 Keith on 07.30.13 at 10:24 am

The boomers screwed over Gen Y and destroyed the wealth of Gen X. And now they are complaining about having to support these kids?

Guess what old farts? If you want your kids to take care of you when you’re in diapers, you better do your bit to help them out now.

No generation before today is as saddled with debt (from student loans to soaring government debt) while facing such daunting prospects (higher unemployment, slow economic growth for decades, aging population to take care off, spectre of asset price deflation).

And these days even a degree in something technically challenging like Comp Sci or business analysis won’t guarantee you make more than Kraft Dinner money.

Be nice to your kids. Your friends and family them over before they moved into your basement.

#230 Ezzy on 08.01.13 at 12:13 pm

@ #231, Keith you’re correct! And in addition to Keith’s comments I’ll add this: It’s useless to be so critical of children who were always coddled and spoiled, for not wanting to leave the spoon that feeds them. It’s human nature to resist change that we perceive as high-effort, negative, or harmful to our current situations, after all. I don’t think Steve is free from blame and responsibility, however, we shouldn’t forget that humans are a product of their environment and up-bringing. The parents on the other hand, well, if Boomers have lazy, non-contributing children living at home while possessing gross senses of entitlement, who’s to blame there? Mars can stuff it, you reap what you sow.

#231 Robby Erickson on 08.01.13 at 3:34 pm

What do we custodial parents to do when we are going into debt because the non-custodial parent refuses to pay or get a job? Is there anything out there to help us? It’s not fair that our credit gets ruined because the other parent refuses to pay or get a job in order to take care of their child!