The shift

Under 40% of people aged 18 to 34 have retirement savings. That compares with two-thirds of everybody else who has an RRSP. If you don’t think this thing is dying, chew on that. Even though shoving cash into a plan nets you a tax refund, the cynical, digital crowd is turning its back.

Maybe this is because young people have no money. (After all, there’s more than $14 billion in student debt.) Perhaps it’s because this is a generation of house porn addicts. (Almost 45% of them say ‘getting real estate’ is their top priority.) Or, possibly, nobody trusts the government any more. (So why would you register your savings with the feds or believe taxes won’t be higher in three decades?)

Yesterday I gave you reasons why RRSPs, created along with all those teeming little Boomers half a century ago, deserve to fall out of favour. And while lots of posters piled on to praise the taxes they ‘save’ by making contributions, there’s one inescapable threat for everyone who has been building their nesteggs inside of RRSPs. It’s politics.

The age of retirement is being raised to 67, and then to 68 in Britain. In the States, it’s been reset to 67 for those born after 1960, and will likely be raised again. You can bet the same will eventually happen here, with CPP benefits being delayed by years for those now under thirty. Already Ottawa has started to goose the qualifying age for the OAS – a universal payment of a little over 500 bucks a month – to age 67.

So how does this affect RRSPs?

First, getting cheap with public pensions is an admission we probably have troubles ahead. Canada has a record federal debt, and continues to add to it. In fact, F admitted some weeks ago the debt will continue to grow for at least a dozen more years. Already governments are cutting back, and health care’s in a funding crisis. Imagine when the average Boomer age is 75 – which happens as today’s 35-year-olds hit fifty. In short, does anyone seriously believe tax rates won’t inflate?

If they do, using an RRSP to supplement the public pension pittance could bring a nasty surprise. How smart is it to deduct 30% of your contribution from taxable income in 2012 if you have to pay 50% tax to get the money out in 2032? Yikes. And expect new legislation to force conversion of RRSPs into RRIFs years earlier than the current 71. That means the feds would make you draw down the registered plan at, say, 67, whether you wanted to or not – and cough up the tax.

So, RRSPs are probably lousy bets if you plan on deferring taxes until you’re old. But they are excellent for other stuff, like shifting tax. Here are five Greater Fool-sanctioned uses for an RRSP:

First, income-splitting. For example, if you make boatloads of money being a lousy, bald mutual fund manager and a puffed-up TV host, and your wife stays at home shopping, then use a spousal RRSP. You can contribute up to your own limit, and claim the deduction against your fat income, and yet the money goes into your wife’s retirement plan. After three years it becomes her property, so she can cash it in and buy more Hermes bags, and pay little if any tax. You got the deductions. She gets the money. This is social justice.

Second, it also works for babies. Simply time your next pregnancy for 36 months after your spouse finishes dumping a wad of money into your spousal RRSP. Then when you’re on mat leave you can use the cash to live on (restrict withdrawals to $5,000 or less), while your husband has enjoyed the deductions from his taxable income. This way the feds subsidize your family. Yeah, revenge.

Third, RRSPs are useful little devils when you lose your job. Contribute while working and get a tax break, then suck them dry in a year when income vaporizes. This is tax-shifting, and it beats the pants off tax-deferral.

Fourth, you can use RRSP money for a house or for schooling. In the latter situation, withdraw $20,000 and have a decade to put it back into your plan (you can also collapse your plan to fund your spouse’s studies). And a young couple can suck out up to $50,000 for a down payment, then have more than 15 years to repay. So if you’ve got fifty grand, stick it in an RRSP at least 90 days before closing, then withdraw it tax-free. Just for having passed that cash through the plan, you’ll get a tax refund of $15,000 or so. Imagine all the important and valuable granite that’ll buy!

Or, you can use your RRSP to fund your mortgage. If you have enough cash in your plan, for example, to pay off your home loan, then do it. The bank loan can be replaced with an RRSP mortgage, which means you then make monthly payments into your own retirement plan. Sounds cool, however remember the interest you charge yourself needs to be at ‘market’ rates and you must CMHC-insure the thing. But, it can still be sweet.

If any of this turns you on (and I’m quite aroused myself at the moment) let me know. I might even tell you how to cash in an RRSP without paying tax.

198 comments ↓

#1 TurnerNation on 11.09.12 at 10:02 pm

9:02

Toronto Life’s latest mag lists Blog Dog Carney as Canada’s #1 Most Influential what.
Right after an article on smart phone habits. Oh the banality of it all.

#2 Angie on 11.09.12 at 10:09 pm

First! -Angie

#3 Fred on 11.09.12 at 10:09 pm

Already Ottawa has started to goose the qualifying age for the OAS – a universal payment of a little over 500 bucks a month – to age 67.

Maybe there’s an alternative. We dump the guys who are raising the retirement age to 67 and we vote in people who will put it back to 65.

The money is there to do it. All that’s needed is that the sheeple try voting for what’s in their own interest, for a change.

#4 Grim Reaper/Crypt Speculator on 11.09.12 at 10:15 pm

Oh damn…

I wuz gonna have Garth and his partner (aka SmokingKong Man ) invest my latest $10 Million ponzi scheme Pro-Fitz…..combo of REITS and Vegas &%*&$ ventures.

Damn Timex….

#5 JO on 11.09.12 at 10:20 pm

I plan to draw down my own rsps over the next 5-10 yrs if/when income drops…will be using it to do a HBP WD in 12-18 months….already cashed out part of the wife’s this year when she was on mat leave for most of the year..will cash out remaining part of her rsp on the next mat leave next year…i hear and agree with everything you say Garth regarding the future tax situation…the promises and tax money needed to fund these lavish promises simply do not meet…not even close by a mile…also sounds to me like a massive generational theft..it is very sickening…no amount of tax revenue will pay for this crap…anyone who argues otherwise is on the dole or part of the PS….there is a massive spending problem.
JO

#6 Nick K on 11.09.12 at 10:33 pm

As a variant on the third Greater Fool-sanctioned use, these things are perfect for funding sabbaticals.

#7 espressobob on 11.09.12 at 10:34 pm

Garth, great post.

RRSP is also a good contingency fund for someone starting a business. The start up period say a year or two with little income can be eased by cashing in some of the rsp at a nice low tax rate. Self employment rocks.

#8 Samour on 11.09.12 at 10:34 pm

Yeah I think the fourth point you mention is really the best way to get the most out of the RRSP.

Also sticking the bonus there helps get around the higher tax on bonuses.
Is there any other way to shelter your bonus? Apparently CRA closed the loop this year on letting employees transfer part or all of their bonus to their Health Spending Account (i.e. tax-free). That’s the only other one I was aware of.

I guess the best way to get your money out of an RRSP when the time comes for it would be to withdraw it 5000 at a time to pay the minimum tax on it (10%). Might tax a couple of years to clear it out but better than clearing it out all at once and paying 30%, right?

#9 mel in victoria on 11.09.12 at 10:34 pm

“If any of this turns you on (and I’m quite aroused myself at the moment) let me know. I might even tell you how to cash in an RRSP without paying tax.”

Might your plan also work for a RIF?

Thanks..

Yes. — Garth

#10 Sebee on 11.09.12 at 10:36 pm

Cash RRSP without paying tax? I think I’m sensing wood. Do tell more please.

#11 Smoking Man on 11.09.12 at 10:39 pm

If your old and you got a bit of loot and you are not (ME) you should talk to guys like Garth.

Now if your sub 30, you should be taking big risks with your loot, a few all in’s. Cause your generation is screwed when it comes to trading time for wages. In a global economy the lowest wages will get the job.

The most dumb down generation, glued to your smart phones, your apps. You cool ring tones.

Your parents are idiots, you are extensions of their Granite counter tops, or your moms aneversary 3k ring.
You are a show piece to them, toting the degree as your folks brag about you at cocktail parties.

Your obidiance certificate will yield you less than a hot dog vendor, only 1 in 300 make it.

Ego, Balls, Self Employment is your only chance.

#12 hawk on 11.09.12 at 10:45 pm

Please do tell us how to cash in the RRSP without paying tax. I’d love to get rid of mine, without penalty for once and for all. Thanks, Hawk.

#13 Hurly on 11.09.12 at 10:46 pm

Garth I have “blue balls”. You can’t tease us like that.

#14 GTA Engineer on 11.09.12 at 10:46 pm

What about moving to the USA in retirement and paying only 15-25% tax down south? Lots of Canadians taking advantage of that lucrative tax treaty with the US in their golden years..

#15 Canadian Watchdog on 11.09.12 at 10:48 pm

At a 4.4% 10 year average growth rate (2002-2012), OAS and other social income obligations would be the size of Canada’s GDP by the year 2100. This doesn’t even account for the increase in retiring boomers and revenue shortfalls from an aging population.

Government debt is growing at an annual average of 5.8% (at historically low rates), real GDP 2.5%. Figure it out.

#16 GLK on 11.09.12 at 10:50 pm

Cashing RRSP without paying tax? I’m definately horny and can’t wait to know how.

#17 Aaron - Melbourne on 11.09.12 at 10:53 pm

Sure wish we had this sort of flexibility in Australia (TFSA and the *good bits* of RRSP).

Instead our Superannuation schemes come in one of two shades:
Union/Industry funds with fairly rigid rules
Self-Managed-Super-Funds (essentially a registered trust)

The latter being relatively new and requiring a substantial amount of capital to be effective, in the vicinity of $300k AUD.

Rules were changed to allow SMSF’s to purchase residential property – gee wonder effect that had on prices in the land of milk and honey? But also think of the risk where relatively diversified funds were cashed out post GFC losses to sink it all into bricks and mortar. The wrinkly ones are going to be toast!

In an environment where the RBA is expressly wanting to supplement the end of the mining boom with domestic dwelling construction but can’t afford to provide hand outs or further deteriorate prudential rules (low doc loan scandal anyone?) I’m fearful that the super rules will be changed in the interests of “affordability” to allow Aussies access to their Super for deposits. The great inter-generational wealth transfer will be willingly aided and abetted.

That said, if they change the rules to allow access to it on the basis that you have to replace any withdrawls then I’ll go to the front of the queue and ask for the max.

#18 Barbarian or Savage? not sure on 11.09.12 at 10:54 pm

Really, cash in RRSP without paying tax.
You gotta be sh#*tin me, tell, tell, tell………………………. I want outta mine!

#19 Coho on 11.09.12 at 11:03 pm

DA #185 yesterday,

You make some good points. I understand what you are saying. Many of us have lost our way for the toys and tinsel. People are always in a hurry – too busy running around maintaining their cluttered up lives to stop and deeply reflect on things. And of course people don’t really need 2000 – 3000 square feet to live in and all their ‘stuff’ to stuff into it. I laughed when some posters on here were ridiculing the Greeks for being rabid consumers. I wonder what the average square footage of a residence in Greece is compared to Canada’s. They live in match boxes compared to us. And I doubt they have half the toys and gadgets we do.

Admittedly at this time, we are not doing without, but getting deeper into debt to maintain a lifestyle we can no longer afford because of the erosion of our purchasing power over last several decades. We are marketed to by way of instant gratification…no money down…low or no interest – don’t pay till 2015, etc. Everything is stacked up against people making the right financial decisions. You mention free will. Truth be known, people have little free will, save for either kind acts coming from the heart, or evil and/or selfish acts depending on what tune resonates with the individual. We just think we have free will, but in truth behave like programmed automatons in making superficial day to day decisions to do with general living, including big item purchases such as real estate. This can explain the seemingly herd-like mentality of people driven by fear and greed.

Yes, if people put away 10% of their gross income over the years they’d have a tidy sum after 30 years. Problem is, most people don’t want to deprive themselves today for a more secure tomorrow. And many can’t meet their monthly expenses anyway, let alone save money, particularly if they’re committing to 300-500K mortgages for ‘starter homes’ just to get into the market.

The thrust of my post was how much less do working people have to make do with so the ruling class can have more? Why should we, the have-nots, resign ourselves to a lower standard of living? I’m not begrudging successful entrepreneurs. After all, these are the people who create most of the jobs. My beef is with the ‘owners of the system’ who take, take and take more. This is the source of the problem of what appears to be a lack of money to be had, not to mention the wars. Instead, we, the have-nots, are quibbling over the symptoms of what is tantamount to a parasitic sucking of wealth from working people. While we’re telling each other what we need and don’t need, which really is silly because we are for the most part simple working class people (unfortunately many of which have traded quality of life for square footage) our slave masters moving the chess pieces are laughing.

#20 Smoking Man on 11.09.12 at 11:07 pm

#1 TurnerNation on 11.09.12 at 10:02 pm

The machine has an agenda, Carney #1 Please.

Never in the history of banking has a central banker has had his nuts in a ever squeezing vise.

He’s paralyzed, Canada is a mosquito flying near the ass of an elephant who’s had to much cheese.

#21 Popeye the Sailor Man on 11.09.12 at 11:08 pm

I also would like to get the RRSP money out and in a TFSA. I have no contribution room to speak of because I have elected to buy back 10Years of federal service years ago. Income from all sources about 95K. Wife’s income while looking after our two special needs children is under 4K for the next couple of years. How can I sneak out my RRSPs to cash and then place them in TFSA for both of us and pay as little tax as possible?

#22 W on 11.09.12 at 11:09 pm

What if someone plans to annuitize their RSP? How is this different from contributing to a DB pension plan? You would avoid those large percentage withdrawals when you turn 71. Provided interest rates aren’t at historic lows like today, this doesn’t seem like a bad option.

In a low interest rate environment annuities are the last thing you want. — Garth

#23 KG on 11.09.12 at 11:14 pm

joining the chorus and the clamour.

#24 Riding the Pine on 11.09.12 at 11:19 pm

Thanks for the info, Garth.

So, if RRSPs are going out of style, can you move $5000/year from them and into a TFSA, without getting taxed?

No. — Garth

#25 Boomer21 on 11.09.12 at 11:23 pm

Got it, borrow money on a line of credit with interest only payments, invest that money in balanced funds. Use your RSP funds to make the interest payments. At tax time right off the interest payments—should be a wash if you do it right. Do I get a prize!

#26 FTP - First Time Poster on 11.09.12 at 11:26 pm

#11 Smoking Man on 11.09.12 at 10:39 pm

“Your obidiance certificate will yield you less than a hot dog vendor, only 1 in 300 make it.”

You spelled obedience wrong.

#27 grasshopper on 11.09.12 at 11:36 pm

To withdraw money from an RRSP tax free …

Would this work?

Go to a bank and take out a $200,000 loan at 5%.
Interest would be $10,000.

Invest the the $200,000 in preferred shares with a yeild of 4% to make $8000 in dividend income.

Because the $8000 of income is a dividend, it is taxed at a lower rate.

Withdraw $10,000 from your RRSP.

The $10,000 of additional income from your RRSP will not be taxed because it is cancelled out by the interest paid on the $200,000 loan.

This seems plausible, but it also seems to me to be a bit of a gamble.

#28 Smoking Man on 11.09.12 at 11:36 pm

#19 Coho on 11.09.12 at 11:03 pm
1) I’m not begrudging successful entrepreneurs. After all, these are the people who create most of the jobs.

2)My beef is with the ‘owners of the system’ who take, take and take more.

1) why are you not an entrepreneurs?

2) Nobody takes nothing, you give it. Their wealth is your labor, with hold it and they have nothing. Even better Compete with them

3=1+2

Your Self Employed your with holding labor

#29 NoOneOfConsequence on 11.09.12 at 11:36 pm

blah blah blah.

My father, my father in-law and my grandfather put away thousands over their lives. They lived frugally, denying themselves nearly all the daily pleasures so they could “enjoy” retirement. Big plans…let me tell you.

All three died within 3 years after retiring. Big plans never realized.

It might be foolish to ignore your retirement.

But you are an idiot if you fail to take advantage of today and enjoy what you have – which is your health and ability to live life.

Life is a journey, not a destination. Look out the window and enjoy the view once in a while.

#30 BramptonSux on 11.09.12 at 11:47 pm

Garth: Why $5K only when on mat leave but no restriction if you lose your job?

No difference. Keep withdrawals to $5,000 or less and the withholding tax is only 10 per cent. — Garth

#31 snowedininRegina on 11.09.12 at 11:49 pm

(After all, there’s more than $14 billion in student debt.)

I understand that’s just the amount held by governments (maybe just the feds?). Add in private debt (and maybe provincial?) and it’s up to about $25 billion.

#32 Skatch on 11.09.12 at 11:57 pm

RRSP Tax Free Withdrawal Schemes:

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/tpcs/rrsp-reer/schms/menu-eng.html

Be careful you don’t get audited.

It won’t happen reading this blog. — Garth

#33 Roial1 on 11.10.12 at 12:00 am

#195Form Man on 11.09.12 at 10:31 pm

agree. I was commenting on hills close to Kelowna. Red is fantastic. Have not skied Fernie, but had some amazing fresh powder days at Whitewater ………

I lived in Whistler for a few years, but there is a problem with warm temperatures there…..

Yup! White water is—– WOW! But Fernie has POW! big time and room to ski forever.

If you think that Whistler is warm, you should come and ski Mt. Washington. Snow up the hoop, but, wet snow most days. Spring skiing could last into June. (it has)
Then again, down here in the Comox Valley I very rarely have to shovel the stuff so I guess it all works out in the end.

#34 gladiator on 11.10.12 at 12:05 am

@ NoOneOfConsequence on 11.09.12 at 11:36 pm

Sorry to hear about your father and father-in-law. The secret to living a long life after retiring is to do something you like wholeheartedly. People who associate themselves with their jobs and who do not know/want to do anything else die VERY soon after retiring, because the stress of being of no use to anyone is deadlier than some nasty illnesses.
The solution is very simple: while you are in your relatively young and healthy years, find a hobby that you can do even when you’re not as vigorous physically, and after retirement – dedicate yourself entirely to it. You will get at least 20 more years of a full and interesting life.
Tonight, after taking a hearty gulp of Hobgoblin beer, I told my wife that after “retiring”, I will be brewing beer “for my soul” (meaning not for money). That should be a nice and entertaining “retirement” and something I will look forward to doing every morning and enjoying with my friends, may they live long lives, keep me company and enjoy my beers and ales.

#35 mark on 11.10.12 at 12:08 am

“Or, possibly, nobody trusts the government any more.”

Valid point really. In Australia they keep fiddling with the superannuation system and the latest trick to balance the budget is confiscating superannuation accounts that have been inactive for more than 12 months and have up to $2000 in them. They’ll be termed ‘lost’.

This is peoples’ money they are stealing. They’ll sell your fixed interest and equity funds, then hold them at 1.2% a year until someone comes forward to claim.

Of course there is laziness and inattention from the individual, but every account is linked to a tax file number, so how could the government term those accounts ‘lost’. They could easily alert the individual if they wanted, but no they’ll confiscate your money and hope you don’t come looking for it.

#36 Brad on 11.10.12 at 12:14 am

Tell us Garth! I want to know how to cash in an RRSP without paying tax.

#37 Cash is King on 11.10.12 at 12:15 am

“Under 40% of people aged 18 to 34 have retirement savings. That compares with two-thirds of everybody else who has an RRSP. If you don’t think this thing is dying, chew on that. Even though shoving cash into a plan nets you a tax refund, the cynical, digital crowd is turning its back.”

OR their hoping their boomer parents will die at a young age leaving them the house, RRSP, cash and hefty life insurance. Or as the digital crowd calls it. Plan A

#38 Cici on 11.10.12 at 12:16 am

Yes, please Garth – share more of the wealth :-)

My Dad has been retired for a few years now and totally regrets having put all of his retirement savings into RRSPs. He keeps telling me not to touch them, and NOT to plan for retirement, which is crazy coming from a very conservative, hard-working and honest businessman who built and forged his own way through live while depriving himself of anything he could not “truly” afford, while many of his friends wasted their money, got into debt, lost houses, declared bankruptcy and then did it all over again.
Any info you could share would be greatly appreciated, as I’d love to see him enjoying the retirement he worked so hard for instead of getting stressed about all the tax he’s getting squeezed out of what were supposed to be his “golden years.”

#39 EIT on 11.10.12 at 12:20 am

I hope the hammer comes down hard on this construction corruption going on in Montreal. The fraud is everywhere and you have to…

RIP IT UP
AND START AGAIN

I want to see people in jail. The guilty ones of course.

#40 Oakvillian on 11.10.12 at 12:22 am

another non housing related post.

#41 25Alpha on 11.10.12 at 12:24 am

“If any of this turns you on (and I’m quite aroused myself at the moment) let me know.”

I love it when you mix sexual innuendo and intelligent speak in one post.

“I might even tell you how to cash in an RRSP without paying tax.””

You have my undivided attention sir.

#42 zeeman on 11.10.12 at 12:30 am

Garth

How do you save for retirement on just a tfsa where the limit is 25k so far.

i have been maxing out on my rrsp for several years and you are saying that this is the wrong strategy for saving for retirment

RRSP room are far higher and this allows you to put enough money to meet your retirement needs. i just dont see how tfsa with the low limits can meet any person retirment goal.

i think tfsa should go with rrsp but on its own i dont see how you can save the funds needed to live your retirment years.

#43 mark on 11.10.12 at 12:33 am

btw nice crack at O’Leary again ;)

#44 Susan London Area on 11.10.12 at 12:39 am

It’s getting hot in here whew…… do go on!

#45 drydock on 11.10.12 at 1:01 am

# 39

At some point i suppose Montreal will be run by the Provincial Gov’t.
People who were raised here are the only ones who know how far this city has fallen.
It’s Canada’s Cleveland or Detroit in the making.
Great cities don’t lose people , they attract people.

#46 Ms bboomer on 11.10.12 at 1:03 am

Please write about cashing in a RRSP without paying tax. Thankyou!

#47 Jeff on 11.10.12 at 1:09 am

How to cash in an RRSP without paying tax.

Google “rrsp meltdown” and proceed with caution.

#48 DonDWest on 11.10.12 at 1:21 am

#28 Smoking Man

Withholding our labour and demanding better does little good when we have billions of little idiots in China and India who are all too proud to be slaves and work pennies for a dollar.

Not to mention I have to endlessly listen to ear soaring testimonies from those lovely entrepreneurs how we should all emulate the Chinese work ethic. . .

I respected the entrepreneurs of my grand-parents era, but today? Forget it. They’re not job creators – they’re slave creators. Any moron can turn a profit outsourcing to China – I mean, how hard can it freakin be when you have no overhead?

But you see, some of us have a conscience, we want to actually earn our keep. Not get there by exploiting 3rd world countries and cheating.

So rich people, continue to tell yourselves you’re smarter than the rest of us, but I know deep down inside you’re not. Any moron can get rich outsourcing – you’re nothing special. You’re just a person without principals – you would nuke the entire world if it meant you made a buck.

#49 Devore on 11.10.12 at 1:23 am

#27 grasshopper

The $10,000 of additional income from your RRSP will not be taxed because it is cancelled out by the interest paid on the $200,000 loan.

It will most certainly be taxed, but the tax paid will cancel out the interest write-off. Which IIRC is the basic idea behind “melting down” an RRSP.

And, yes, doing something has risks, but so does doing nothing.

#50 bp on 11.10.12 at 1:27 am

Is it best to use up the spousal plan first, if they are in a lower tax bracket. and can a company pension plan be split between us after the spousal plan is used up?

#51 new canadian on 11.10.12 at 1:31 am

#40 Oakvillian

This macho, hairy online blogger is talking about finances in general. So unless it’s another “US economy is recovering” ridicule, we should accept some non-housing posts.

#52 Nostradamus Le Mad Vlad on 11.10.12 at 1:58 am

-
“Maybe this is because young people have no money.” — Most don’t have money, ‘tho the pic is nice. Good post!
*
#192 Daisy Mae on 11.09.12 at 9:21 pm — “Along with native plants you can incorporate water attractions (using recycled water), . . .” — Like this?
*
Thought For The Day! — “Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes it’s laws…” — Mayer Amschel Rothschild (wrh.com).

I forgot to add to #94 Debtfree that Obomba can and will use Executive Orders at his privilege to bypass and stifle debate, so we can look to an increase in wars. Ignore the rhetoric, plus ObombaThe worst is yet to come, and Curious Chart.
*
Rothschild wine in China? See caption under pic; Four Years which, coincidentally, is when Obomba finishes his second term; New Sheriff “Yea,… it’s true. China stopped going to the US Treasury Bond Sales auction. As a result, the US changed their tune in a hurry in the South China Sea.”, Yuan Bigger role in settlements? Then, BONG! Change to a gold-backed currency; Boeing layoffs due to Pentagon cuts; Latvia Because they’re not in the EZone; California Going Down Don’t come here! Merkel There had to be a reason why she wanted the UK in the EU, and here it is; The US Fed to the BoE Hence The Fourth Reich; ObombaCare = Mass Layoffs or an increase in part-time work, JC Penney sales hit the skids, and Videogame sales off 25%; 0:29 clip Fiscal chart cliff that not even Wile E. Coyote would survive; EU and Greece Greece should dump the Euro, go back to the Drachma and bartering. May knock some common sense into those flat-heads in Brussels; California Exports drop; India Thorium-based nuke reactor getting closer; Oil A fly in the ointment? Trade War? It’s clear why China didn’t bail out the EZone.

Bloomberg Why would he do this? Unless the US is a dictatorship; Cdn. Friday links plus Blame Obomba? He’s only the figurehead. Soros is the one running the show; Grim Comedy from MMM; BC, like California going down; When is it possible to walk away from a house deal? (Cdn.); Arrested Development Anyone remember LIBOR? Yes, Atlas Shrugged; Billionaires Can’t win ‘em all! Con Ed Same as UK — hikes all round; Speaking of Natural Gas; Economists cut US 4Q estimates.
*
Men It takes all sorts. Ladies, please avoid us for we know not what we do, but sometimes Women have their own pansies to grind; Children come better prepared for life these days; Monkey see, monkey do Pitch invasion; Stuxnet, A US – Israel creation appears to have backfired; Petraeus “This sounds like the real reason Petraeus got kicked out today.” wrh.com; Iran Air defense drills over weekend, allowing that the US drone was already in Iranian airspace; Japan – US – MEast Which side of the world does the US protect? Soros knows the answer, and he likes China; 11:34 clip HAARP is one of many heaters; Diesel Sugar A great way to use sugar; NMF and NG Pipelines Explosive combo; BBC aka Buggering British Children is imploding; Audi Another beaut; Cuddle Sutra Complicated. Don’t try this at all!
*
Smoking Man Roger Waters is doing nice things these days, but the Floyd are done and dusted.

#53 Waterloo Resident on 11.10.12 at 2:26 am

MAGNITUDE 12.1 QUAKE HITS B.C. = TOTAL DEVASTATION !
TENS OF THOUSANDS DEAD.

( now just imagine that happening in the next 2 to 9 months, imagine how that would affect property prices when the floor of the Fraser valley drops 12 meters ? )

Where’s warning signals that the quake just might be coming within a few months:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/geekquinox/time-worry-third-major-quake-two-week-british-144542498.html

#54 dave b on 11.10.12 at 2:34 am

isn’t the hbp limit 25k now?

#55 dave b on 11.10.12 at 2:35 am

nevermind. my bad

#56 chaser on 11.10.12 at 2:48 am

All this RRSP talk have something inflating Garth?

Tax rates cannot inflate. They might increase though.

#57 Mic D'angelo on 11.10.12 at 3:21 am

RRSP’S are good to contribute the maximum at an early age say over 30 to 35 years. For example a $600,000 RRRP could be depleted over 15 or 20 years at age 50 to 55 years and continue to build your non-registered investments and TFSA’S for the rest of a retiree’s life. The income tax bill would be modest say 25%-31% and one could retire earlier using this strategy. The biggest mistake RRSP contributors make is they let the RRSP grow to 71 years old and then are stuck with a huge taxable mess with no flexibility and clawback of pension benefits.

#58 Chaddywack on 11.10.12 at 4:09 am

I’ve never understood why even bother paying back Homebuyer’s Plan payments?

I know you lose the RRSP plan room forever, but in a way you can take a fat deduction and then spread the income inclusion over 15 years….

#59 martin9999 on 11.10.12 at 4:44 am

#1TurnerNation on 11.09.12 at 10:02 pm
9:02

Toronto Life’s latest mag lists Blog Dog Carney as Canada’s #1 Most Influential what.
Right after an article on smart phone habits. Oh the banality of it all.
—-

you are the best men, keep up the good work.

p.s. Dont intimidate the host

#60 Aussie Roy on 11.10.12 at 5:13 am

Aussie Update

When times get tough, the tough go wacky…

NO cash for a deposit? Bad credit rating? Can’t get a loan? Don’t worry, you can still buy a luxury pad in upmarket St Ives.

Ken Slamet will take your car, boat or whatever’s lying around as a deposit for his father-in-law’s home.

The 25-year-old is so desperate to sell he has tacked signs to telegraph poles and worn a sandwich board around St Ives offering the five-bedroom home on a rent-to-buy scheme.

The signs have attracted a lot of calls from recent migrants who can’t get loans or high-income earners with a poor savings record.

“Even a 10 per cent deposit requires $150,000 in your bank account,” Mr Slamet said. “Who’s got that money lying around for a rainy day?”

The house at 228 Warrimoo Ave has been on the market through an agent for more than 100 days, pulling in ridiculously low offers, Mr Slamet said.

“Rather than negotiating the price, we’re trying to negotiate the way people buy it, by offering finance.”

The pool of greaterfools drying up ?.

http://www.news.com.au/national/desperate-ken-slamets-unreal-estate-offer/story-fndo4bst-1226513983456

#61 Smoking Man on 11.10.12 at 8:25 am

#29 NoOneOfConsequence on 11.09.12 at 11:36 pm

Well said

#62 Smoking Man on 11.10.12 at 9:41 am

#48 DonDWest on 11.10.12 at 1:21 am

Any moron can turn a profit outsourcing to China – I mean, how hard can it freakin be when you have no overhead?

But you see, some of us have a conscience, we want to actually earn our keep. Not get there by exploiting 3rd world countries and cheating.
……………………………………………………………………..
“earn our keep”

Who put that ridiculous thought in your head. Do you think any one at the G20, a, Bilderberg meeting , a board meeting, a hot dog vendor thinks like that.

Wealth is generated by trade, Buying and Selling. The bounty of the trade is divide up, the “earn our keepers” get the crumbs. The owner of that trade is the master. Earn our keepers are the slaves enriching the Master.

What don’t you get?

Having a conscience, principals is a form of stupidity a taught emotion to keep you down and the master up.

Would I nuke the world if my survival depended on it?

In a heart beat.

#63 EIT on 11.10.12 at 9:48 am

#52 Nostradamus Le Mad Vlad on 11.10.12 at 1:58 am

“India Thorium-based nuke reactor getting closer”

India is building an Advanced Heavy Water Reactor (AHWR) and still burning Thorium pellets like Uranium pellets. The fuel is solid. This is not a Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor (LFTR) or a Thorium Molten Salt Reactor (TMSR) which in turn are not to be confused with Fluoride High-temperature Reactors (FHR). The hype that has been attributed to thorium by people like Sorensen has nothing to do with what India is doing. Kirk even admitted it himself.

woopty doo India

#64 ChickenLittle on 11.10.12 at 10:15 am

LOL # 11 Smoking Man!! That was actually funny! You forgot to mention Tube Top Sandra. BTW: I am actually in school for an “obidience” certificate, albeit 15 years after I finished high school. Unfortunately, it is the only way to get a job a chimp could do these days. Those boomers had it good…

#65 CP on 11.10.12 at 10:31 am

*boner alert*

I’m turned on Garth, now help finish me off with more RRSP info!!

#66 Wendal on 11.10.12 at 10:42 am

@Post 11-Smoking Man

I’m 31 years old so I’ll go ahead and throw myself into the mix below 30 in which you describe.

I love my smart phone and their apps because while I’m at my $100,000 salary job I’m glued to my phone in my investment account trading leveraged ETF’s. I have a mortgage which equates to $1000/month(pocket change) and have low 6 figures in investments not including the place I live as I don’t care abouth the net value as I know it will soon fall apart. Aside from the mortgage, my wife and I have no debt, stashing cash away every month and yes, I did spend 8k on her aniversery ring because I can. I drive a payed for $85,000 car I bought used for just over 50K. Call me stupid as I know there are much better things to spend my money and cheaper cars to drive but Its what I enjoy.

I know where things are headed and will servive the coming storm while people are eating KD and I’m enjoying Wagyu. Hope you have ketchup and hotdogs for your KD

#67 Dr. WAYNE on 11.10.12 at 11:06 am

#2 Angie on 11.09.12 at 10:09 pm

First! -Angie

Angie … not FIRST ! … but an a$$ hole none the less.

#68 Daisy Mae on 11.10.12 at 11:07 am

“If any of this turns you on (and I’m quite aroused myself at the moment) let me know.”

**************************

You get excited about the damndest things! LOL

#69 Form Man on 11.10.12 at 11:21 am

175 DA yesterday

I am not inventing the MOI for Kelowna, I am taking it right off the OMREB website ( the mother ship for all Kelowna realtors ). Presumably CREA uses the same methodology for all areas of Canada, so these numbers are valid for making ‘apples to apples’ comparisons ( i.e. there will be the same proportion of ‘unmotivated sellers’ in all markets).

It is not different in Kelowna……

#185 DA yesterday

I agree with you about peoples expectations. What is considered a ‘ starter home’ today is larger and more luxurious than ‘executive’ homes from a few decades ago. Part of the problem is rising land costs. Builders are compelled to put up ever more expensive houses to justify the final price tag. It is also true that buyers are encouraged by both banks and developers ( not to mention realtors ) because larger, more expensive homes are more profitable for the same amount of work…..

#33 Roial

I have heard the stories about MT Washington. Having to shut the lifts down because the chairs are dragging in the deep snow……!

#70 Daisy Mae on 11.10.12 at 11:29 am

#34 Gladiator: “People who associate themselves with their jobs and who do not know/want to do anything else die VERY soon after retiring, because the stress of being of no use to anyone is deadlier than some nasty illnesses.
The solution is very simple: while you are in your relatively young and healthy years, find a hobby that you can do even when you’re not as vigorous physically, and after retirement – dedicate yourself entirely to it. You will get at least 20 more years of a full and interesting life.”

******************

Very true. It’s enthusiasm for life that keeps us going.

#71 };-) aka D.A. on 11.10.12 at 11:32 am

#19 Coho on 11.09.12 at 11:03 pm

For the most part, every dollar you spend, or don`t spend, is a vote endorsing, or rejecting, a particular product and/or service. Vote as you will.

#72 Julia on 11.10.12 at 11:49 am

#19 Coho on 11.09.12 at 11:03 pm
Nice piece of writing.

#73 Smoking Man on 11.10.12 at 11:49 am

#66 Wendal on 11.10.12 at 10:42 am

You think 100K a year is Good. Seriously?

I have so much work to do here.

#74 Smoking Man on 11.10.12 at 11:52 am

#64 ChickenLittle on 11.10.12 at 10:15 am

Why would you want a job, Create a job, burn the certificate. Slave ownership has its privileges.

#75 Macrath on 11.10.12 at 12:01 pm

“Or, possibly, nobody trusts the government any more”

Trust the government to screw you when you are most vulnerable, like getting old and less likely to riot. Zip on your savings, CPP penalization, QAS extensions and claw backs, hospital closings , doctor shortages and the list goes on. RRSP next on the hit list for sure.

Should we wait for a few more years of tax sheltered gains before the RRSP meltdown or bail out now ?

#76 };-) aka D.A. on 11.10.12 at 12:01 pm

#69Form Man on 11.10.12 at 11:21 am
175 DA yesterday

I am not inventing the MOI for Kelowna, I am taking it right off the OMREB website ( the mother ship for all Kelowna realtors ). Presumably CREA uses the same methodology for all areas of Canada, so these numbers are valid for making ‘apples to apples’ comparisons ( i.e. there will be the same proportion of ‘unmotivated sellers’ in all markets).

It is not different in Kelowna……

Did you not see my post yesterday where I explained that of all listings this year to date. Let me repost it herein as I do believe it says something you need to consider:

Here’s some interesting statistics: Of all the single family homes listed for sale in Kelowna thus far this year just 34.72% have sold. The listing of 29.69% expired before a ready willing and able buyer willing to pay something acceptable to the seller was found. And 35.59% of the sellers just gave up and cancelled their listing.

And Form Man thinks we have more than a year’s worth of inventory?!? Clearly only 35% of the active inventory is real and simple math deduces that it is more like just 3.7 months of inventory that is really for sale. Buyers are not so stupid as to consider anything else. You can ask whatever you want it doesn’t mean it’s near worth it. And everything can be bought for a price it’s just a matter of whether you’re prepared to pay it. So does that mean we should actually consider every home in Kelowna a part of the available inventory? Wouldn’t you sell yours if someone offered you the ‘right’ price? – D.A.

Really Form Man I just do not buy into the Months Of Inventory statistic, not in this market anyway and really rarely in any it just does not on its own stand up and say anything of any consequence beyond its consideration within the context of a unique micro market. For example it might have some bearing on the ubiquitous product in a particular condominium complex where there is a plethora of the same, or very similar, model condo competing against one another. But otherwise real estate is unique with virtually no two alike with respect to physical attributes or price.
MOI don’t mean shit.

#69Form Man on 11.10.12 at 11:21 am

#185 DA yesterday

I agree with you about peoples expectations. What is considered a ‘ starter home’ today is larger and more luxurious than ‘executive’ homes from a few decades ago. Part of the problem is rising land costs. Builders are compelled to put up ever more expensive houses to justify the final price tag. It is also true that buyers are encouraged by both banks and developers ( not to mention realtors ) because larger, more expensive homes are more profitable for the same amount of work…..

But on the other hand look at the resale market closely and you will see that a $500,000 home offers the buyer well in excess of double that which a $250,000 home does. More dramatic and telling however is, the difference in what a $500,000 single family home offers and that which a $500,000 strata property offers. It is this latter discrepancy which drove developers to build an overabundance of strata properties – the profits are huge by compare.

I do think there is a rather large untapped market for what we might consider more conventional starter type homes which mirror that lesser priced resale inventory that has linoleum and carpeted floors instead of hardwood and tile, laminate counter tops instead of granite, white appliances instead of stainless, 356 mouldings instead of custom 5 inch, spackled ceilings instead of coffered and maybe even a carport instead of a triple car man-cave garage. But these homes, unlike the mouldy, asbestos laden, dilapidating, poorly insulated postwar bungs, would be new. No the greater profit margins are not there but the market is. And lets face it, without a market there are no profits anyway.

#77 };-) aka D.A. on 11.10.12 at 12:08 pm

Form Man

I should add to my last post that I understand and agree that the land cost component is a difficult one to overcome in providing a reasonably priced alternative.

What I would like to point out to everyone is; it is the land not so much the improvements upon it that matters most. buildings depreciate, land appreciates. Always been that way and always will be that way as long as we continue to pack more bodies on this planet. This one fact is what too many here miss. Let me repeat it again:

It is the land not so much th improvements upon it that matter most. Buildings depreciate, land appreciates.

Hence the real estate adage; Location, location, location.

#78 geogar on 11.10.12 at 12:15 pm

Take the “F” outta shift what are we left with? Bad either way!
” MONEY ROAD” Tools for the wild ride ahead. A very helpful book with tons of hints and strategies.

#79 DonDWest on 11.10.12 at 12:33 pm

#62 Smoking Man

So basically you agree with me that the rich are nothing but amoral and evil people. Good, we’re in agreement, and I say society would be better off without them. . .

Time to embrace anarchy I say, fight for a world of neither master nor slave.

#80 dwd on 11.10.12 at 12:43 pm

Garths recovery in the US. Think aagain – According to the US Census Bureau, in 2011 the median income of US households, adjusted for inflation, fell to $50,054. This is 4.9% below its 2009 level, and 8.9% below its all-time peak of $54,932 in 1999

House prices fell 32%. Where’s the surprise? — Garth

#81 Form Man on 11.10.12 at 12:48 pm

#76 DA

MOI is likely the most important piece of data for someone analyzing the housing market. It has been a proven tool around the world for decades.

Kelowna is not different

Home prices will continue to decline until MOI is below 7. Always has been, always will be.

On another note, the Lakewind project in West Kelowna is having a 50% condo sale this weekend. This project was completed in 2008 !……….the slow-moving trainwreck that is the Kelowna housing market just keeps piling up twisted metal……one wonders when the end will come ( not likely before MOI is below 7 )

#82 daystar on 11.10.12 at 1:07 pm

#67 Dr. WAYNE on 11.10.12 at 11:06 am

Is negatively judging others the only card you’ve got? A dull play at best, doc.

#29 NoOneOfConsequence on 11.09.12 at 11:36 pm

Let me guess, as an inheritor you didn’t complain but instead the untimely deaths of your forefathers gave you all the more reason to think only of one’s self? For some reason I don’t think retirement savings was entirely the reason they had in mind to save.

#71 };-) aka D.A. on 11.10.12 at 11:32 am

You can add “earn” to your point and for that matter, following the will that pursues the ideals of perfection. I shouldn’t have to get into who personifies it but thats just my opinion.

Excellent commentary on RRSP’s, Garth. It enlightens and at the same time illustrates how and why FP’s are worth the money.

As an aside, the U.S. fiscal cliff is making headlines. Obama has drawn his line in the sand. The media mood is that we headed over the cliff. I’ll have plenty more to say about this as it becomes more topical but it looks like their fiscal deficit could be chopped by a half instead of a third as a consequence. That would cause drama for currencies and commodities for sure!

Enjoy your weekend everyone.

#83 Donn on 11.10.12 at 1:30 pm

Yes! I too would like to know your ideas on getting the money out of the rrsp tax free. If this is borrow enough to invest so that the interest payment matchs the rrsp withdrawl method, then at 3% interest you have to borrow a lot to get 10K out tax free. We are certainly all waiting with fingers crossed…..Thanks for the great blog Garth

#84 jess on 11.10.12 at 1:54 pm

Supreme Court’s controversial 2010 decision

Morrison v. National Australia Bank

http://www.the-investor-advocate.com/?p=2147484316

===
Morrison v. National Australia Bank Ltd (Decided June 24, 2010) US is a US Supreme Court case concerning the extraterritorial effect of US securities legislation.[1] Its effect was to bar all federal securities fraud suits in the US for securities traded on a foreign stock exchange.
In late 2010 Fabrice Tourre of Goldman Sachs asked for dismissal of an SEC suit against him based on the repercussions of the Morrison v. National Australia Bank Ltd Supreme Court case, claiming his deals were outside the US and thus not subject to certain US laws.[2][3][wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrison_v._National_Australia_Bank_Ltd

Jurisdiction Over Foreign Securities Transactions
http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/corpgov/2010/07/11/investor-protection-provisions-of-the-dodd-frank-act/

http://dodd-frank.com/cftc-if-rule-10b-5-works-for-the-sec-it-should-work-for-us-too-and-maybe-we%E2%80%99ll-win-more-than-one-case-every-35-years/

#85 bill on 11.10.12 at 1:55 pm

#67 Dr. WAYNE on 11.10.12 at 11:06 am
A proctologist is a doctor who specializes in problems of the colon, rectum, and anus.

#86 TurnerNation on 11.10.12 at 2:14 pm

Smoking man, no I believe Dollarama (DOL.TO) is still undergoing a topping process here.

The longer a topping or bottoming pattern the better its strength.

#87 anotherwhistleblower on 11.10.12 at 2:48 pm

I’m surprised that no one ….anywhere…..has spoken….especially the financial media pundits….. about the big boost fo international socialist confiscation of wealth after Obama’s announcement that ‘the rich have to pay more’.

Here’s the real deal the Obamatons have in store for everyone whether rich or not……everyone would pay under the current tax scheme…..the $250,000 talk is just smoke and mirrors to mollycoddle the stupid…..and apparently its worked…..Obama got elected having pulled the wool over everyones eyes.

Fact…the ‘rich’ pay as much personal income tax on income earned as everyone else does….exactly the same percentages. When Warren Buffet said he paid les than his secretary he was obfuscating the fatcs out of some late found altruism ( maybe he’s thinking about his meeting with St Peter as a lot of old people get very religious just before the kick). The fact is that Warren and his secretary pay exactly the same INCOME TAX.

Heres the differance ….99% of Warrens income is dividend income and as risk capital it is taxed at a lower level. This system was created to get people to invest in the economy…it’s entirely fair that investors get a tax break on investment income as do corporations who erform the same service for the economy. THATS WHY wARRREN PAID ‘LESS’.

Obama is suggesting that dividend income is taxed at the same level as earned income and that creates a huge new stream of revenue for the government.

Heres the bottom line why every stupid liberal who fell into this trap should go home and flagellate themselves. EVERYONE of you has a mutual fund…a pension investment in bonds etc etc etc …that have preferantial tax treatment. If you don’t understand your statements at least look for the line that says ‘DISBURSMENTS’…that is your profit after taxes……..this will now be going way up to match the nominal tax rate if Obama’s socialist tax grab takes hold. After Obamas’ liberal notions are instituted in the US…you can be sure that all income in pension investments of stock dividends..whatever the vehicle will see an enormous rise in taxation.

So if your a liberal and you love Obama…….I hope you choke on the losses you’ll take after the ‘tax on the rich’ kicks in.

#88 };-) aka D.A. on 11.10.12 at 2:49 pm

#81Form Man on 11.10.12 at 12:48 pm

I understand the concept of MOI and that many tout it to make their point but as they say “Statistics reveal to us what is interesting but neglect to show us what is most important”. MOI is most certainly interesting statistic but it is hardly a good measure of what is going on in the market from which it arises. In other words; it is a symptom more than it is a problem.

There are as many homes being sold today as there have been the last four years and as many as before the bubble which took place between the years 2002 and 2008. I other words; volume increased by 50% from 2002 to 2008. After the economic crisis of 2008 our unit sales volumes dropped by a third back to those prebubble levels. Prices between 2002 and 2008 more than doubled. After the economic crisis of 2008 then dropped by about 15% and have remained stable since.

MOI reached its peak in January 2009 when it was 39.23 and has been dropping since. If you graph MOI against Unit Sales Volume and Price you will see a definite correlation in Unit Sales Volume and Price as Price follows behind Volume up or down. The correlation between MOI is hard to ascertain although I can tell you it is more a product of consumer fear and greed than anything else. In 2009 when we stood at 39.23 Months of Inventory most of it was the consequence of sellers wanting to bail out at the peak of the market which they had missed. As they came to realize their lofty price expectations would not materialize they pulled their product from the market as they were seriously motivated sellers in the first place. The same could be said for many of the buyers, albeit in the inverse, who are sitting on the fence waiting for prices to fall.

Actually Form Man I never did say prices were going to rise in the immediate future anyway. I am quite sure they will eventually but none too soon. And I agree with you that 7 Months of Inventory will be a strong impetus for that to happen. But my arguement has been more that prices will not fall as so many expect, not so much that prices are poised to rise soon.

Real estate is a long term hold. If you bought a home today I am confident in ten years time you will not very likely look back on it with any regret. Especially as sometime between now and then we surely will have passed through that 7 Months of Inventory you tout and when that does happen watch out because you bet your ass prices will then rise.

#89 Old Man on 11.10.12 at 2:50 pm

#86 TurnerNation – Dollarama is a sell to take capital gains off the table, and move to secure cashflow producing assets with a tax advantage to park with a secure position. It is an emotional stock like falling in love, and one day something goes wrong with the relationship. The P/E ratio is 24.40 with a dividend yield of $0.688, and the writing is on the wall saying sell quickly, as no more candy for you.

#90 TurnerNation on 11.10.12 at 2:50 pm

“Second, it also works for babies. Simply time your next pregnancy for 36 months after your spouse finishes dumping a wad of money into your spousal RRSP”

So, uh, this weblog is in favour of the withdrawal method? For RRSPs…

#91 TurnerNation on 11.10.12 at 3:04 pm

Look at Carney’s picture. He just oozes Prep. school snivility (I just made this word up).

#92 luke8929 on 11.10.12 at 3:28 pm

Maybe there’s an alternative. We dump the guys who are raising the retirement age to 67 and we vote in people who will put it back to 65.

The money is there to do it. All that’s needed is that the sheeple try voting for what’s in their own interest, for a change.

This thinking is why saving through an RRSP is a waste of time. The writing is on the wall and the US election proved it. People will vote themselves a check at anyone’s expense and they will not care who the money comes from as long as they get theirs. No chance the tax rate you pay when taking money out of that RRSP will be lower in the future.

All this monetary easing intended to save the banks has people believing that money does grow on trees. They are not sure who or how that works but the last 4 years has proven to them that we can cover everything by simply printing more and more.

Any Politician who tells them different will be voted out and any central banker who even talks about withdrawing monetary stimulus will simply be replaced with someone who will continue buying more government debt.

Mr Carney is now saying no increase in rates which tells you the banks and economy will shortly need another bailout from the government. The government will of course insist that rates be kept low to fund themselves and the CB through their dealers (Banks) buy up any Bonds not taken up by private investors.

What is interesting is that the whole system of inflation, currency debasement which has allowed the banks to skim of the productive portion of society is now in jeopardy thanks to the CB’s own policies. The EOTW gun pointed at governments by the banks gas been grabbed by the general populace and turned back on the bankers. Go ahead and stop buying debt and or raise rates and see what happens, everyone wants their free stuff and want someone else to fund it.

#93 Dan from Richmond Hill on 11.10.12 at 3:36 pm

Canada’s Carney says rate hikes “less imminent”

“Over time, rates are likely to increase somewhat, but over time, so a less imminent timing relative to our expectation,” Carney said in an interview with the National Post newspaper.

http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/canadas-carney-says-rate-hikes-less-imminent-165550320–sector.html;_ylt=ApXSF0.j4psuEFfjPjSGxlZyzJpG;_ylu=X3oDMTNsaTIwMzlyBG1pdANmcCBtZWdhdHJvbjEEcGtnA2JiOGU4YmVlLThkNjMtMzBmMS04ZWJmLWNkMDY0MmQzMDMwZARwb3MDMgRzZWMDbWVnYXRyb24EdmVyA2QwZDg5NDYwLTJiNTctMTFlMi1iZjlkLWE3NjdjMmI1Yjk0Zg–;_ylg=X3oDMTFpaWd1MzUyBGludGwDY2EEbGFuZwNlbi1jYQRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25z;_ylv=3

#94 Old Man on 11.10.12 at 3:39 pm

#91 Crash Test Dummy – Real Estate is like a woman, as one day mortgage arrears appear to be low, and all is well. Then the winds of life change when things do not go well, as have seen the sky blue and the sun shining, but out of nowhere the storm clouds move in.

Never discount the illusion, as in the near future power of sales will appear like ants coming to spoil the picnic table meal; married couples will go underwater; fights will occur; pain and suffering will abound; and in the words of Joseph Conrad – the heart of darkness will be seen with the horror of it all.

The love for Real Estate will fade tantamount to each other, as they bet the wrong horse to have the pie in the sky because they were horny for what they could not afford, and each will blame the other for this bad choice to become rich, and in the end their love too for each other will fade. This will not end up well.

#95 joe on 11.10.12 at 3:52 pm

wow garth your a financial wizard.

#96 Marie on 11.10.12 at 3:59 pm

Jeebs, look what is happening in Germany. Demographic Shift.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/demographic-shift-in-germany-leaves-thousands-of-empty-homes-a-866298.html

#97 don bool on 11.10.12 at 4:21 pm

RRSP,s – According to F and the Harper Government RRSP,s pay no tax. F calls them a bunch of low down coupon clippers. If F can tax income trusts in RRSP,s with his bogus redacted reasoning i can see a time when using this same reasoning he,ll tax all RRSP,s.

income-splitting – Wouldn,t it be a slice of social justice if income-splitting was what it is and not pension splitting. If you don,t have that pension……no splitting for you. If i,m correct income-splitting is only available to approximately 14 1/2 % of the fortunate few.

RRSP,s and income-splitting are a nice selling job for our elected officials, but the perception is just that, and if and when the time comes for the need to raise tax revenue they are vulnerable. The income trust fraud is proof of that.

Like they say…knowledge is power…a lot of income trust investors had a harsh reality of this in 2006 with the so called tax fairness plan that put a big dent in their retirement savings. It can get expensive to learn some lessons. Ignorance is not bliss.

Cashing RRSP without paying tax?……After getting nailed by the Cons with their tax fairness plan the one positive is that tax paid after converting to a RIF is much less. After all you can,t get blood out of a rock.

#98 Form Man on 11.10.12 at 4:29 pm

#88 DA

good to see you are starting to come to terms with reality. I look forward to next spring when you finally agree that I have been right all along………..

#99 Dr. WAYNE on 11.10.12 at 4:30 pm

#82 daystar on 11.10.12 at 1:07 pm

#67 Dr. WAYNE on 11.10.12 at 11:06 am

Is negatively judging others the only card you’ve got? A dull play at best, doc.

YES !!! It brings into perspective the idiocy of some people … and … it’s not dull, regardless of ‘your’ judgement.

#100 Dr. WAYNE on 11.10.12 at 4:32 pm

#85 bill on 11.10.12 at 1:55 pm

#67 Dr. WAYNE on 11.10.12 at 11:06 am
A proctologist is a doctor who specializes in problems of the colon, rectum, and anus.

I’m so glad you tuned my in … I’ve been sticking my finger in the wrong hole …

#101 espressobob on 11.10.12 at 4:36 pm

#67 Doc. wayne.

Whats the problem? Performed one colonoscopy too many?

#102 Canadian Watchdog on 11.10.12 at 4:42 pm

#94 Dan from Richmond Hill

Canada’s Carney says rate hikes “less imminent”

If you know central bank jargon well, that means a 50bps cut by mid-2013, cause Carney knows it’s game over and rates are NEVER going up without a default or revaluation.

Wrong. — Garth

#103 Julia on 11.10.12 at 4:54 pm

#92 TurnerNation on 11.10.12 at 3:04 pm
Look at Carney’s picture. He just oozes Prep. school snivility (I just made this word up).

————————————————————-

Prep school snivility…love it!

#104 Old Man on 11.10.12 at 5:12 pm

I have a message for Smoking Man as he gave me the code by saying Bro; not sure, so will give him a code back 32. Now the homeless man now has a Bachelor apartment with first and last rent paid in full; basic furniture has been moved in; food was brought in by the women with the ES; and on Monday a social worker will document welfare payments.

In a couple of months he will get employment, and once again become a member of society to get back on his feet, as this will be arranged with the machine. I say never discount a man or a woman on the street if they are not mentally ill; he was not, just down on his luck. It is imperative for all in Canada to have a sense of compassion for others.

Some of you all talk about big money with this and that, but take some of it and direct it for a purpose to help those in need, as you could be next. I encourage all to take compassion on those that have fallen; not with donations to some charity, but do it directly with a hands on endeavour because the reward with be 10 fold in the end.

#105 Purrfect on 11.10.12 at 5:28 pm

Garth
Once the TFSA (thank you for bringing it forward to F) is maxed out and all debts are eliminated, isn’t the RRSP is the next best option for those who still owe to the taxman at year’s end?

Pay now or pay later. Why is later better? — Garth

#106 };-) aka DA on 11.10.12 at 5:38 pm

#99 Form Man on 11.10.12 at 4:29 pm
#88 DA

good to see you are starting to come to terms with reality. I look forward to next spring when you finally agree that I have been right all along………..

While I am uncomfortable with the practice of crystal ball gazing I will go on the record saying, all things being equal between now and then, given the, albeit modest, increase in unit sales volumes this year over last and yes even the falling MOI too Form Man, it would not at all surprise me to see a minor but very real increase in prices that might well take many others by surprise.

Price almost invariably follows volume and volumes have increased. As far as inventory goes… There are, according to Statistics Canada, over 60,000 private dwellings occupied by usual residents in Kelowna most all of which I am quite sure could be bought for a price depending upon the motivation of either or both the buyer and seller. I know as on occasion when seeking a home for a buyer I will knock on the door of one that appears to fit the bill whether it’s for sale or not and I assure you mosteveryone is willing to sell for a price. Unfortunately when you approach them that way they think they have a live one and their price tends to become unreasonable. And so too is it of all the unmotivated sellers who have overpriced properties on the market today that should not be.

Trust me MOI today is about as much a relevant indicator of market conditions as what your neighbour might be asking for their home is an indicator of what your home might be worth. You can ask what you want all day long that does not mean it’s worth it. Both M.O.I. and asking prices are used by someone who thinks they know more than they do. It’s what you don’t know you don’t know that gets you in trouble. Thinking you know what you don’t know can be very costly. But what’s that I keep saying about an education is a bargain at any price…

#107 espressobob on 11.10.12 at 5:55 pm

#29 NoOneof Cosequence.

Your point is well taken! In fact the amount anyone puts aside for retirement should be considered disposible income anyways. Peace of mind and who the hell knows how long some of us will live is the point.

#108 Grim Reaper/Crypt Speculator on 11.10.12 at 6:26 pm

#67 Dr. WAYNE on 11.10.12 at 11:06 am

#2 Angie on 11.09.12 at 10:09 pm

First! -Angie

Angie … not FIRST ! … but an a$$ hole none the less.

=====================================

DR. Wayne..in action(its a lonely at the bottom)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWSyEWvu8UY

#109 Form Man on 11.10.12 at 6:28 pm

DA

You are over-thinking things my friend. Keep it simple. Prices will continue to fall until MOI is below 7. There will likely be a few years of flatline after that. No rush. Lots of time. The bargains just keep getting better each year. Keep your powder dry…..

#110 Smoking Man on 11.10.12 at 6:30 pm

DondWest love your spirit man. cut the heads off thats my shtic

old man life time member at the lodge. bunch of old boaring farts

turner nation will keep my eye on it nice batman. but apple man. factor in time. best trade in my life 3 weeks. i put my short on sep 18 then doubled down a week later. .

i love life

#111 Smoking Man on 11.10.12 at 6:33 pm

forgot to mention vlad

if anyone on this planet is worthy of hero worship its roger waters

#112 Old Man on 11.10.12 at 6:39 pm

Now did you pay attention to what Garth had to say, as he said “might” which is a none binding statement and I say let let them all eat cake, as some secrets must be held away from the masses, as this would upset Caesar and the F guy to freak them out.

” When there is an income tax, the just man will pay more, and the unjust less on the same amount of income. ” – Plato

Well, I say lets kick all these guys under the bus and become unjust men and women, so Garth spill the beans, as my daddy always told me that revenge is sweeter if it is spread far and wide, and frick them all, as knowledge must be shared.

#113 salonist on 11.10.12 at 6:41 pm

sm
“All hail the prediction machines”

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20121109-all-hail-the-prediction-machines

#114 Canadian Watchdog on 11.10.12 at 6:41 pm

Wrong. — Garth

Banks that are ‘too-big-to-fail’ still a threat: Carney Link

“Yet Mr. Carney said the “implicit subsidy of taxpayers to large banks” probably has only grown since the crisis; perhaps by as much as 10 times, he said, citing estimates.”

What happens next should be obvious by now.

#115 };-) aka DA on 11.10.12 at 6:47 pm

Ok Form Man I will concede. MOI, (months of inventory) does have some statistical merit. But what you fail to recognize is that you must look at it specific to the specific market. Kelowna is unto itself a large market with many submarkets exhibiting very different characteristics.

For example the Okanagan Mission area od the city is comprised of two distinct areas; Upper Mission and Lower Mission. You might be surprised to learn that currently the MOI for single family residences in Upper Mission is 31.83 months while that for Lower Mission is a mere 5.86 months!

So while the MOI for all Kelowna markets is something closer to 13 months wouldn’t you agree to use such a statistic in the context of anything meaningful is simply nothing less than a gross generalization?

#116 Dan from Richmond Hill on 11.10.12 at 6:47 pm

Spain’s Prime Minister says he is to seek an end to evictions due to non-payment of mortgages

http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/spains-prime-minister-says-seek-end-evictions-due-153703393.html;_ylt=Ajt_Sv49ij.qKu.FSDuik35yzJpG;_ylu=X3oDMTRrZDA1NnI0BG1pdANBTFQgRlAgNyBCdWxrIFRhYmJlZCBMaXN0IFNob3J0ZXIgMiBpbWFnZXMEcGtnAzQ3ZWUwMTRiLTUzNzUtMzE0YS1iZTg0LTNhNTc5Mjc1Y2NjYQRwb3MDMwRzZWMDdG9wX3N0b3J5BHZlcgM0ZmNjYzJkMC0yYjU1LTExZTItYmRmYi1jOWI2OGQzOGI1OTc-;_ylg=X3oDMTFpaWd1MzUyBGludGwDY2EEbGFuZwNlbi1jYQRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25z;_ylv=3

#117 };-) aka DA on 11.10.12 at 6:56 pm

Oh and Form Man guess where the bulk of those Upper Mission sellers want to move to when they finally do sell.

You need to delve deeper into the backstories to MOI and what is going on inside the market. Again, “statistic are like a bikini: they reveal what is interesting but not that which is essential”.

#118 jess on 11.10.12 at 6:58 pm

…”Professor Margrit Kennedy writes that a stunning 35 percent to 40 percent of everything we buy goes to interest. This interest goes to bankers, financiers, and bondholders, who take a 35 percent to 40 percent cut of our GDP. That helps explain how wealth is systematically transferred from Main Street to Wall Street. The rich get progressively richer at the expense of the poor, not just because of “Wall Street greed,” but because of the inexorable mathematics of our private banking system.

This hidden tribute to the banks will come as a surprise to most people, who think that if they pay their credit card bills on time and don’t take out loans, they aren’t paying interest. This, says Dr. Kennedy, is not true….
In 2011, the US federal government paid $454 billion in interest on the federal debt – nearly one-third the total $1.1 trillion ($1,100 billion) paid in personal income taxes that year. If the government had been borrowing directly from the Federal Reserve – which has the power to create credit on its books and now rebates its profits directly to the government – personal income taxes could have been cut by a third…

http://truth-out.org/news/item/12605-its-the-interest-stupid-why-bankers-rule-the-world

#119 Nubbers on 11.10.12 at 7:42 pm

#67, Party on Wayne. Garth has email addresses, maybe he will ban these 1st w*****s.

#120 Westernman on 11.10.12 at 7:44 pm

anotherwhistleblower @ # 87,
Keep this up and you are going to be banned from this blog – you know how Canadians love their socialism…
Your direct and repeated truth telling is going to upset their rose colored view of the world.

#121 Boomer21 on 11.10.12 at 7:50 pm

Come on guys, Smoking Man 7 posts; DA, 5/6 posts and it’s only 6:30pm. DA : long boring useless crap. Smoking Man is funny but pathetic in a weird way. Do you people not have a life? Don’t get me started on Mr. Old Man “as” any sentence he starts. Who writes or talks like that? Sheesh!
Tomorrow is Rememberance Day, take a break and think about all of the brave men and women who gave their lives so that we could be free and post on this pathetic blog without fear. Stop whining and be thoughtful and thankful, please.

#122 Daisy Mae on 11.10.12 at 8:33 pm

#91 Crash Test: “So let’s review. Mortgage arrears near all-time lows. Consumer delinquencies at all-time lows. What’s with all the noise about over-indebted Canadian consumers? Pure bunk!”

********************

Just because consumers manage to keep up with their payments thus far doesn’t mean they aren’t over-indebted. It’ll catch up to them eventually…all they need is an emergency expense or a job loss.

#123 Doctore on 11.10.12 at 8:55 pm

Mentioned student debt loads, prevents people when they graduate from getting on with life. What if the gov enacted legislation that all income tax paid by former students went directly to pay down their debt obligations? Wouldn’t that then ensure it is paid when they work and then can get to saving, spending etc?

#124 Daisy Mae on 11.10.12 at 8:59 pm

#91 Crash Test:

Further to last…

I forgot to mention interest rate hikes on existing mortgages.

Where have you been?

#125 Old Man on 11.10.12 at 9:00 pm

#122 Boomer21 – let me give you a lesson, as pay attention as you protest too much. It matters not what a person says, but how they say it; it matters not what one what one does in life, how they do it because when all is said and done there is a difference that needs to be seen. I for one like what the Smoking Man has to say, as such is cool on my page.

#126 Herb on 11.10.12 at 9:05 pm

#121 Westernmoron,

yea, sure. People get banned for speaking the truth all the time, at least those whose truth consists of fact-free ideological BS, like Truth Hammerer and his follow-on incarnation.

You’ve been there, done that, so you shouldn’t be shocked when it happens to a fellow-traveller.

#127 robert on 11.10.12 at 9:07 pm

thank you Garth for helping us avoid the pitfalls of rrsps.Am waiting for the chapter and verse of how to drain our rrrsps with minimal tax and buiding our tfsa and investment accounts to pay for our retirement lifestyle.

#128 freedom_2008 on 11.10.12 at 9:40 pm

#58 Chaddywack said “I’ve never understood why even bother paying back Homebuyer’s Plan payments?”

While if you don’t, they will be treated as regular RRSP withdrawal and you have pay income tax on them, besides loosing the RRSP room.

#129 FTP - First Time Poster on 11.10.12 at 10:03 pm

#111Smoking Man on 11.10.12 at 6:30 pm

“old man life time member at the lodge. bunch of old boaring farts”

You spelled boring wrong genius. That’s two – must not be as brilliant as you want others to believe.

#130 Snowboid on 11.10.12 at 10:08 pm

#81 Form Man on 11.10.12 at 12:48 pm…

Latest MOI for the city we spend the winters in, near the west valley of Phoenix, is down to 2.2!!

#131 Form Man on 11.10.12 at 10:11 pm

#116 DA

Wow. Those stats really shine a light on the gravity of Kelowna’s housing crisis. This is one hell of a hole to dig out of……..

#132 AACI Home-Dog on 11.10.12 at 10:49 pm

#130FTP – First Time Poster….

Your handle suggests that you are “new here”…but I think otherwise.
Based upon that premise, you should know better than to mock SM’s spelling.

#133 Old Man on 11.10.12 at 10:53 pm

#130 FTP First Time Poster – the only lodge have ever been to was for fishing, so have no clue about this all; just simple cabin on Georgian Bay at a resort lodge to do some fishing with all meals included with a young babe in training to show her how to bait a hook to reel in the yellow perch for fish fry over an open fire for a snack late at night before we took a midnight swim, as believe in well balanced diet in life.

#134 AACI Home-Dog on 11.10.12 at 10:59 pm

SM said…
“if anyone on this planet is worthy of hero worship its roger waters”
and maybe J. Page…
PS….the “machine”…another word for “capitalism” ?
Which I believe is the main force behind the recent (and most) elections…
cheers….”remember”… 2 minutes of silence 11 am Sunday….
peace out….

#135 Bottoms_Up on 11.10.12 at 11:26 pm

#124 Doctore on 11.10.12 at 8:55 p
———————————————-
Why don’t the oil companies or banks give up 1 quarter’s net earnings and pay off all the student debt?

#136 Nostradamus Le Mad Vlad on 11.11.12 at 12:13 am

-
#63 EIT — Thanks for educating and enlightening me!

#112 Smoking Man — Glad you read the link. At least a bunch of friends and I saw Floyd in 1994. Well worth the trip! Plus Smoking Man – This is the Dark Side of the Moon! (4:29 clip.)
*
List of layoffs in the US since the election. Heading toward a part-time McJobs workforce, The 29-Hour Workweek Coming soon to escape ObombaCare? and Just Ahead A US socialist supreme court; Obombanomonics First para. lets one have a clearer understanding of where we’re going, Fiscal Cliff re: NY and Cal. plus Wealthy Scrambled Eggs Making plans; 3:27 clip Wal(bully)mart workers organizing strike for Black Friday; 1:42:03 doc. Blood diamonds and Africa; Banxters herding Lemmings off a cliff, and we’re the lemmings; Demise Say the SAF, Cascades and the entire Left Coast disappears. That would leave the Okanagan as prime beach front property! UBS Terminally ill; Ohio Rain Water Tax Link in; Here’s a new one.
*
One min. clip A splendid example of how TSHTF; Louisiana wants secession; An Earth-like planet suitable for politicos, lobbyists, lawyers and banxters 42 light years away; 9:04 clip Recall the Star Trek communnication devices? Looks like they’re becoming a reality now; NDEs Near death experiences don’t exist, as life is always in a constant state of flux, always continuing. Only adventures in the next worlds; 6:31 clip Japan’s Tunnel of Lights, or pix of the aforesaid; MSoft Tablet Screens break after three days use, junk status; Exces Cancers from GM feed; BBC higher-up quits.

#137 Grim Reaper/Crypt Speculator on 11.11.12 at 12:23 am

Where is Doc Wanker…..

Double shift driving a cab ???

#138 Herb on 11.11.12 at 12:40 am

#134 Old Man,

didn’t know that the Scottish Rite was a way of fishing.

#139 Dwd on 11.11.12 at 1:15 am

Think QE just ends up on the banks balance sheets and dsnt create inflation? Think again.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jeremywarner/100021222/the-bank-of-england-has-just-crossed-the-line-into-straight-government-financing/

#140 a prairie dawg on 11.11.12 at 2:26 am

“Unimaginable bravery”

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/11/09/korean-war-battle-of-kapyong-among-canadas-greatest-victories/

Thank you to those who served our Country.

#141 Greg on 11.11.12 at 5:17 am

I’d love to know how to cash out an RRSP tax free.

#142 Mr Buyer on 11.11.12 at 7:52 am

Peak Oil…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_Oil
Optimistic estimates place peak oil to be passed around 2020. Pessimistic estimations say we have just passed peak oil sometime between 2000 to 2010.

#143 Mr Buyer on 11.11.12 at 8:45 am

Population Growth
It took from the beginning of the Universe until 1804 for the human population to reach 1 billion. It only took 123 years for the next 1 billion increase in population to yield a population of 2 billion in 1927. The next rise of 1 billion in the population level only took 32 years to bring the world population to 3 billion in 1959.The next 1 billion rise in the population level took 15 years to see the world population hit 4 billion in 1974. The rate of increase was about the same again with 1 billion being added to the world population level in 13 years with the population hitting 5 billion in 1987 (it is not small feat to shave 2 years off the previous period it took to add 1 billion to the population but I digress). The next billion added to the population level took 12 years with the population hitting 6 billion in 1999 (shaved another year off). Some estimates placed the world population at 7 billion in 2011 which would mean another billion was added to the population level over 12 years again. The US department of Commerce US and World population clock ( http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html ) places the world population today at 7,051, 526,488 (at 9:43pm Nov 11 2012 Tokyo time). Just to sum up, just before I was born there were 3 billion people on the earth and within my lifetime 4 billion more have been added to the total living population.

#144 Tony on 11.11.12 at 9:29 am

Re: #8 Samour on 11.09.12 at 10:34 pm

That only works if you take the money pay the 10 percent and move to another country.

#145 Tony on 11.11.12 at 9:39 am

Re: #103 Canadian Watchdog on 11.10.12 at 4:42 pm

It should’ve happened this year but next year at the latest. Both Canada and America will be in either recession or depression one or the other.

#146 Form Man on 11.11.12 at 10:25 am

#131 Snowboid

That is a very low number, and there should be significant upward pressure on prices as a result. On the flip side, I expect very significant downward pressure on prices in the upper Mission area of Kelowna for some time yet ( based on the MOI provided by DA ).

#147 Eaglebay - Parksville on 11.11.12 at 10:31 am

#136 Bottoms_Up on 11.10.12 at 11:26 pm

“Why don’t the oil companies or banks give up 1 quarter’s net earnings and pay off all the student debt?”
_______________
And, who’s going to pay my dividends?
And, where’s the exploration and development money coming from? Genius.

#148 Dr. WAYNE on 11.11.12 at 11:42 am

#102 espressobob on 11.10.12 at 4:36 pm

#67 Doc. wayne.

Whats the problem? Performed one colonoscopy too many?

Not really … I’m a gynecologist … eat your heart out …

#149 Dr. WAYNE on 11.11.12 at 11:46 am

#109 Grim Reaper/Crypt Speculator
DR. Wayne..in action(its a lonely at the bottom)

Sorry … you spelled ‘TOP’ wrong … it should be T .. O .. P , not B.O.T.T.O.M … would you like another spelling lesson???

#150 Dr. WAYNE on 11.11.12 at 11:49 am

#67, Party on Wayne. Garth has email addresses, maybe he will ban these 1st w*****s

Fortunately, Garth has a wicked sense of humour …

#151 Dr. WAYNE on 11.11.12 at 11:52 am

#138 Grim Reaper/Crypt Speculator on 11.11.12 at 12:23 am

Where is Doc Wanker…..

Double shift driving a cab ???

Hell no !! I’m reading ethnic jokes, like yours. Try again …

#152 TurnerNation on 11.11.12 at 12:04 pm

#122Boomer21

You are missing the point. We can post on here due to the government’s unlimited power. They don’t care what we say, it matters not. They have power now. The men behind the curtain spun the wheel 4 times in as many years until their man squeaked in with 40%. majority. You call this democracy. You think you are free. I tell you they have unlimited power over us.

Now, the real risk is our jobs. We all post using anonymous name. Why? We are scared for our jobs. The corporations hold the day-to-day power. How many would be fired for speaking out aginst the machine?

“Making statements not congruent with BigCorp’s values and beliefs” the lawyer’s letter to you would say. Are you really going to fight a $400/hr corporate law firm? Not a hope in h-ll. To the poor house for you. They have the power.

#153 Just Looking on 11.11.12 at 12:07 pm

I hate to rain on everyone’s no tax parade, but if doing some financial slight of hand gets you out of paying any taxes on your RRSP savings, you are, by definition, not paying your fair share. YOU would be the problem with the country. Not politicians, not immigrants, not ‘blood-sucking’ public sector workers. You.

You would be responsible for Ottawa bureaucrats to come up with some less progressive, but less easily gamed system of collecting taxes (Death taxes, wealth taxes, luxury taxes on things like international flights).

Taxes are the price we pay for civilization. If you want to be Greece, get a hard-on for fancy tax avoidance schemes. But if you intend to use even a moment of free health care, subsidized old folks homes, enjoy the protection of the rule of law, or appreciate the fact that your lakeside retreat bought by your tax free windfall has some protection against being used as a convenient and quiet dumping ground for corporations also looking to avoid the obligations of their pollution, then don’t try to find creative ways of totally avoiding paying taxes.

It’s great if you want to debate vigorously the use of taxes, what constitutes good spending, advocate for different rates, lower taxes (and consequently lower services), or what social programs ought to be in place etc. But individuals and corporations who use financial slight of hand and complex loopholes created because it is impossible to write legislation to account for every possible scheme that tax accountants dream up are the true leeches on society.

#154 Snowboid on 11.11.12 at 12:09 pm

#147 Form Man on 11.11.12 at 10:25 am…

In our city, comparable in size to the Central Okanagan, prices are up 25% from Oct 2011 to Oct 2012. The median sale prices are back up to October 2009 levels, but still have a long ways to go to meet the peak seen in Jan 2006. Either way, it’s not hard to say we are ‘rising from the ashes’!

While RE may be hot, a cold-front moved down from the PNW yesterday, making our weather frightfully cold: 18C today and 21C tomorrow!!

It’s hilarious to see all the Phoenicians in their parkas, boots and gloves!! But at least it’s back to the mid 20s by Thursday.

#155 Canadian Watchdog on 11.11.12 at 12:11 pm

#140 Dwd #144 Mr Buyer

Two perfect posts. #141 explaining outright debt monetization and #144 explaining the power of exponential growth.

The U.S. accumulated its first trillion dollars of debt within 200 years, yet it only took 286 days to accumulate the most recent trillion.

Austerity is a necessary condition for rebalancing, but it is seldom sufficient. There are really only three options to reduce debt: restructuring, inflation and growth. —Mark Carney

The latter has failed.

#156 Daisy Mae on 11.11.12 at 12:15 pm

Why Carney hesitates to raise interest rates….

QUOTE: “While no one wants to see the country in a depression, not everyone views a recession as a bad thing. The National Bureau of Economic Research says that expansion — the opposite of recession, represented by the upward movement of the market wave — is the normal state of a market. But some economists take more of a Zen approach, considering recession as neither bad nor good, but part of a natural market cycle. When the Federal Reserve Bank steps in to adjust interest rates, some say this actually tampers with the natural order of the economy. Even worse, some economists believe that changing interest rates to pump up a recessing market can make matters worse by extending the decline.”

#157 };-) aka D.A. on 11.11.12 at 12:20 pm

#132Form Man on 11.10.12 at 10:11 pm
#116 DA

Wow. Those stats really shine a light on the gravity of Kelowna’s housing crisis. This is one hell of a hole to dig out of……..

Not if you are a motivated seller who has priced your home such that it will sell as the most logical choice amongst all those overpriced alternatives. And not even if you are not a motivated seller as then, by definition, you really could care less if your property sells or not. But if the right fool comes along who is willing to pay the price; BONUS!

What separates the motivated from the unmotivated is price.

That only 34% of listed home sell is a far more useful and telling statistic in my world Form Man. It tells me that 66% has not yet encountered some level of inspirational dissatisfaction that motivates them to sell. It’s a kewl statistic because it indicated a need for my services. My service is predominantly at the onset one in which I help prospective sellers educate themselves on the market to determine if they have a want or need to sell at all. A good deal of my time is spent with such prospective clients of which, in this market, only 25% actually make the grade and list their home at a realistic price that it will sell. The other 75% I help come to terms with the fact that if would be a gross waste of both our times to put their home on the market and in fact the worst thing for them to do as where they are is the best place for them to be.

So you see, from my experience at least 75% of the 66% of that current M.O.I. is not really on the market at all. So if MOI is indeed 13 months it is actually more like 13 – (66% x 75%) = 6.5 MOI. Or 13 – (66% – (66% x 25%)) = 6.5 MOI. And SHAZAM there ya go Form Man we are under that 7 MOI you’ve been waiting for!

There is no Greater Fool who is going to pay that unmotivated sellers absurd price. Those days ended in 2008 and really we’re all better off for it.

This is a return to norm not a departure from it.

#158 Daisy Mae on 11.11.12 at 12:21 pm

More…..

Recession versus Depression
It’s pretty easy to understand depressions once you get the concept of recessions. A depression is simply a prolonged or particularly excruciating recession. Economists don’t really have a watermark to indicate a depression. Believe it or not, there’s even an economists’ joke that describes the ambiguity between recessions and depressions: A recession is when your neighbor loses his job; a depression is when you lose your job. While the presence of a recession is debatable, when a depression hits, the issue is no longer up for debate.

Depressions are generated by the same factors that cause a recession. You can look at depression as an extended recession on the graph of the business cycle wave. Unemployment rises, gross domestic product (GDP) drops off, stock prices fall and the stock market crashes.

#159 TurnerNation on 11.11.12 at 12:27 pm

#144Mr Buyer – no problem. Have you seen the amount of prepared food thrown out at your local supermarket? Multiple this by the many thousands of First World supermarkets and yet we can feed the worlds. Throw in more solar panels, wind farms, green roofs and we can pull it off.

Don’t fall for the depopulation agenda. Sanctions, un-tested vaccines are its toil. Every wonder why Bill Gates doesn’t send FOOD down to Africa? I’ve heard, malutrition and AIDS’s symptoms are similar. In its stead, Big Pharma runs wide spread clinical trials in 2nd, 3rd world countires. Cheaper that way. And they don’t sure.

#160 Linda Pearson on 11.11.12 at 12:44 pm

#154Just Looking on 11.11.12 at 12:07 pm

Yours is an excellent post, one I have copied/pasted to a file I keep of comments like that.

But maybe you are directing your rant toward “evaders” and not “avoiders”. Avoiding tax isn’t illegal but evading it certainly is. Though in both cases there’s lots to talk about regarding fair share I guess.

#161 Form Man on 11.11.12 at 12:55 pm

#158 DA

I think what you are saying is that prices need to fall considerably more before we see an increase in sales and consequently a reduction in MOI. I believe this is correct and what some of us have been telling you for some time now……..

#162 Form Man on 11.11.12 at 1:00 pm

#155 Snowboid

Interesting how quickly the market can rebound when it is allowed to crash naturally. In Canada’s case, the market was artificially supported and indeed stimulated after 2008, putting us at least 3 years behind the U.S. recovery………..

Of course, the postponement of the housing correction did allow the Harperites to easily capture their majority. It remains to be seen how well the voters appreciate Harpers ‘economic management’ when he is up for re-election in 2015…….

#163 Jeannie on 11.11.12 at 1:13 pm

We’re retired outside of Canada, and we’d sure like to get our cash outta those ‘do-nothing’ RRIFS.
Perhaps Garth would do an article on this subject, I think
it would be useful for those of us who can think
of a more productive use of our savings.

#164 Canadian Watchdog on 11.11.12 at 1:21 pm

#146 Tony

It should’ve happened this year but next year at the latest.

I can assure you an imminent rate cut has very little to do with household debt, cause when the BoC starts buying equities to levitate the TSX, you know there’s clogging in the pipeline.

#165 Sisko on 11.11.12 at 1:21 pm

So, Garth, can you clarify your recommendations? This seems to be the order of things you are suggesting. First step, pay down non-deductible debt. Second step, max out TFSA. Third step, ?. Most people would work to max our RRSP contributions at this point. Are you saying we would be better off investing with after tax dollars in a non-registered portfolio? Thanks.

#166 };-) aka D.A. on 11.11.12 at 1:27 pm

#162Form Man on 11.11.12 at 12:55 pm
#158 DA

I think what you are saying is that prices need to fall considerably more before we see an increase in sales and consequently a reduction in MOI. I believe this is correct and what some of us have been telling you for some time now……..

Nice try Form Man. But seriously; you and everyone else who wants to please by all means continue believing that. Hold onto your cash in anticipation that prices will fall. Keep waiting. Don’t buy now because if you wait you will surely save thousands. All those others who continue to buy are leftover Greater Fools. You will be rewarded by waiting, while they come to realize the thousands, no tens of thousands they wasted by not waiting.

You’ll have to excuse me if I don’t pass along that strategy to those buyers I work with for to do so, you understand, would be as reckless forecast as telling them the home they are considering buying will be worth more in a years’ time.

Interesting how quickly the market can rebound when it is allowed to crash naturally. In Canada’s case, the market was artificially supported and indeed stimulated after 2008, putting us at least 3 years behind the U.S. recovery. – Form Man

And the U.S. economy wasn’t!?

That the U.S. economy is, in fact, showing significant signs of recovery is of great benefit to Canada as we will, as we always do, ride their coattails to prosperity.

#167 Herb on 11.11.12 at 1:49 pm

#149 Dr. Wayne,

good one, Doc.

#168 Form Man on 11.11.12 at 1:51 pm

#158 DA

Presumably CREA uses the same methodology for all markets, so if according to you an MOI of 13 actually is 6.5, then are we to assume that an MOI of 6.5 = 0 ? Or in Snowboids example an MOI of 2.5 = negative 4 ?

Perhaps you can elaborate ? And why on earth wouldn’t CREA simply give us your calculation ? what possible reason could the Real Estate Boards have for making things look worse than they are ? You need to contact them DA, and set them straight. The entire Canadian housing correction could be averted if your masters simply recognized your astounding conclusions ! ……..

#169 Reid on 11.11.12 at 2:40 pm

Form Man & DA:

I have been looking to buy in the Central Okanagan for a year now and have tracked MOI stats in the specific area that I am interested in (not the Mission, but generally representative of the entire market). Below are MOI stats for SFH’s that I collected for year to date sales through Oct 31 2012 by price range:

$400k to $500k 6.2
$500k to $600k 10.8
$600k to $700k 18.6
$700k to $1 mil 48.3
$1.0 to $1.5 mil 106.6

Total 11.4

So what I see in Kelowna is two totally different SFH markets. One is under $500k which is a very balance market and at times can be a sellers market. The other market is for homes over $600k which in my opinion is hard to even call a market as there are so few sales relative to inventory.

If you have a home for sale under $500k and it is priced right, it will sell and this is where the bulk of the activity is. As a builder today in the Okangan this is where I would focus as there is demand and financing available to the average local resident to back it up.

But if you have a home priced at $1.2 million and even if it was $1.8 million in 2008 it is still extremely hard to sell as there are so few buyers in this price range. Since the new mortgage rules came into place in July, I have only one sale between $1 and $1.5 million in my region with 30 active listings today. There are nine years of inventory so even it you discount it as DA suggest, it is still a total joke. Similarly I only have two sales between $700k and $1 million since the new mortgage rules with an inventory of 55 units, so this market is not much better.

#170 Form Man on 11.11.12 at 2:44 pm

#165 DA

Your logic is absurd and tortured. I am actually starting to feel sorry for you. I don’t think you have faintest clue…….

The U.S. market began correcting in 2007, finally ending in 2012 with a 32% drop in home prices. The Canadian market corrected briefly in 2008 and then resumed its upward trajectory in 2009. The true correction in the Canadian market has just gotten underway. Given that the U.S. market required 5 years to stabilize after the start of the correction, we can assume 2017 before the Canadian market is finished its downward slide…….

#171 Smoking Man on 11.11.12 at 2:45 pm

#130 FTP – First Time Poster on 11.10.12 at 10:03 pm
You spelled boring wrong genius. That’s two – must not be as brilliant as you want others to believe.
………………………………………………..

So you define brilliance with good spelling, teacher tell you that.

Obviously you are new here.

#172 eagle eyes on 11.11.12 at 2:51 pm

Harper just signed a tax treaty with Hong Kong. I wonder who this benefits?

#173 Form Man on 11.11.12 at 3:18 pm

#170 Reid

Your stats do back up what we are seeing in the market. The worry is that the continual lack of sales in the $600k plus market will eventually lead to capitulation and significant correction for those homes putting subsequent pressure on the lower priced homes. ( why would I pay $400k for a home when I can get 3x the home for $500k ? )

#174 };-) aka D.A. on 11.11.12 at 3:24 pm

#169Form Man on 11.11.12 at 1:51 pm
#158 DA

Presumably CREA uses the same methodology for all markets, so if according to you an MOI of 13 actually is 6.5, then are we to assume that an MOI of 6.5 = 0 ? Or in Snowboids example an MOI of 2.5 = negative 4 ?

Perhaps you can elaborate ? And why on earth wouldn’t CREA simply give us your calculation ? what possible reason could the Real Estate Boards have for making things look worse than they are ? You need to contact them DA, and set them straight. The entire Canadian housing correction could be averted if your masters simply recognized your astounding conclusions ! ……..

Nice try again Form Man. But:

Every market is unique unto itself. Yes it really is different here and in West Kelowna, and in Rutland, and in Dilworth and every other city and neighbourhood in the country and the world. But more specific to your failed logic is you failure to understand that the contingent of sellers who lack motivation is a given percent of any subject market not a fixed number which might exceed that of the MOI. I know you are not that stupid and only trying to make me look stupid but you need to make a more logical argument to achieve that aim. The real math you ought to have used would not be such as to say “so if according to you an MOI of 13 is actually 6.5, then are we to assume that an MOI of 6.5 = 0? Or in Snowboids example an MOI of 2.5 = negative 4?” but rather “so what you are saying is, all things being equal if an MOI of 13 is actually 6.5 ( 13 – (66% x 75%)), then are we might assume that an MOI of 6.5 = 3.2175 months (6.5 – (66% x 75%))? Or in Snowboids example an MOI of 2.5 = 1.2375 months (2.5 – (66% x 75%))? Keeping up with the math?

But you must also consider that with a decreasing month’s worth of inventory the contingent of unmotivated sellers decreases at a relative but greater rate such until a floor is achieved after which we’ve clearly entered a ‘seller’s market’ in which there are a number of sellers who are actually motivated by nothing more than the lucrative opportunity to cash out at the top of the market. But as would be the case then and in that of Snowboids example those sellers would actually be able to sell largely due to the equally irrational behaviour of buyers in such a ‘seller’s market’ market which might be considered proportional to that of some sellers in a ‘buyer’s market’ but inverse.

I’m quite sure this must be going right over your head and I really don’t have time to waste trying to explain it to you. Best you just continue believing what you want to believe as it apparently is working for you and quite frankly that you believe it works for me too. That I’m sure you don’t get either, but it’s true. At the end of the day what you and others like you believe is my greatest advantage.

#175 };-) aka D.A. on 11.11.12 at 3:31 pm

Sorry about the poor syntax of my previous post but really I’ve got to go. Figure it out for yourself, or not. Not my problem if you can’t, but certainly your disadvantage. So really I should just S.T.F.U..

#176 Canadian Watchdog on 11.11.12 at 3:47 pm

Form Man & DA

If I could make a suggestion: compare sales and listings (current and average YTD) as a percentage of Kelowna’s population for 2002, 2008 vs 2012. That should clarify some of your differences.

#177 tkid on 11.11.12 at 4:31 pm

An excellent little excel spreadsheet to help one factor in inflation, rate of return, starting sum of savings, yearly additions, amount taken out at what age, so that one can figure out when the kitty will be left dry:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/investment-ideas/will-you-have-enough-saved-for-retirement-plug-in-the-numbers-and-find-out/article5176489/#

#178 dosouth on 11.11.12 at 4:31 pm

#170-Reid
Great research by the way. We built in the Okanagan in 2009 and have since sold and moved on but with this market and moving forward, per sq ft, it is cheaper to buy and reno if need be, builders will build under 500k with cheap fit and finish.

Once the drywall is up the secrets are hidden in the walls. Good luck with your purchase.

Don’t waste your time with the };-) aka D.A. fellow as he is doing fine according to him and if you live to be 110 or so this correction will be just a blip on your life’s screen…….and he apparently has some clients – still!

#179 AACI Okanagan on 11.11.12 at 4:53 pm

#170 Reid on 11.11.12 at 2:40 pm

So what I see in Kelowna is two totally different SFH markets. One is under $500k which is a very balance market and at times can be a sellers market. The other market is for homes over $600k which in my opinion is hard to even call a market as there are so few sales relative to inventory.

If you have a home for sale under $500k and it is priced right, it will sell and this is where the bulk of the activity is. As a builder today in the Okangan this is where I would focus as there is demand and financing available to the average local resident to back it up.
————————————————————-
Good observation, the problem with this type of market is that the upper end, let’s say homes over $600,000, homes in this price range are experiencing downward pressure on values, as they keep reducing prices sooner or later what happens is that the gap between the low end of of the upper end and the high end of the mid-level start to get closer. ie: When the gap is $50,000 +/- where you can get way more house that is in a better location buyers start to buy in this price range.. the end result of this is that homes in the $450,000 to $500,000 will have to adjust prices downward as something has to give.. either homes in the upper end have to move upward and all other sub-markets will follow or they reduce and reduce which puts downward pressure on all sub-markets.. the upper end is DEAD and that is why I believe we will still see another 5-10% reduction in values across the board.. 2013 will be another tough year

#180 Angel on 11.11.12 at 4:53 pm

#66 Wendal. I think your car is paid for, not “payed” for. And I do hope you survive the coming storm, rather than “servive” it.

#181 Form Man on 11.11.12 at 5:39 pm

Canadian Watchdog

excellent idea. we are hoping you will capitalize on the opportunity you have just provided yourself, and produce one of your fine charts…..

AACI Okanagan

agree. After seeing some of the data posted today, I think there is a good chance of a severe correction in Kelowna’s higher end market ( $600,000 – 1.5 million )
That MOI number is telling…….

#182 Form Man on 11.11.12 at 6:03 pm

DA

The data on Kelowna MOI you have provided today is useful and, in the case of higher-end homes, alarming.

CREA measures the MOI the same way in all areas.
Kelowna is measured the same way as everywhere else.

This is what CREA says :
0-5 months = sellers market, upward pressure on prices
5-7 months = balanced market, prices flatline
7 months and up = buyers market, downward pressure on prices

Kelowna has an average MOI of 15 months. According to you, the MOI for higher-end homes is 39 months…..

#183 Nodebt on 11.11.12 at 6:10 pm

#73 smoking man, so can you Please tell me how much is good? I’m self employed, wife & 2 kids, have no debt at all. I’m currently trying to find a balance in my life! When is enough money enough? Most people I know including myself always want more! I save most of my money I make, looking forward to your response smoking man!!

#184 espressobob on 11.11.12 at 6:30 pm

#149

Good comeback Doc, at least you have a sense of humour.

#185 Brighton Girl on 11.11.12 at 6:30 pm

Garth,

Your thoughts on the ‘bond investor slaughter’ would be immensely helpful.

http://www.thereformedbroker.com/2012/10/26/33-times-you-poor-dumb-bastards/

Thanks

If you run a $5 billion bond fund, worry. Otherwise, ignore it. — Garth

#186 Canadian Watchdog on 11.11.12 at 6:38 pm

#183 Form Man

I’m not sure exactly what specifics you guys are debating, but here’s a quick template of Central Okanagan residential sales/listings/volume versus regional population. Adjusting data to population growth is more relevant then MOI since it gives a better picture on the size of activity compared to population.

Data
Population Estimates

#187 Smoking Man on 11.11.12 at 6:57 pm

#182 Angel on 11.11.12 at 4:53 pm

Wow spelling police again.

I’m sure General Petraeus can spell. Head of the CIA sending steamy emails to his girl friend. Knowing that emails are hacked.

A Conrad back moment. And man he can spell.

#188 espressobob on 11.11.12 at 7:18 pm

#112

Roger Waters? Pink Floyd June 13 1976 ( IVOR WHIN STADIUM). Been there saw that. That is a bygone era. This day & age has its challenges to say the least. But I do enjoy some of your comments. There seems to be a method in your madness, just not quite sure? Cheers.

#189 Form Man on 11.11.12 at 7:22 pm

#187 Canadian Watchdog

thanks for the links !

unfortunately for DA and his endless proclamations of sunshine and ponies………..this latest info casts an even dimmer view of a decidedly grim situation.

#190 a prairie dawg on 11.11.12 at 7:30 pm

#186 espressobob

Good comeback Doc, at least you have a sense of humour.

- — -

But the challenges he faces in his profession would be the yeast of our worries.

#191 EIT on 11.11.12 at 7:49 pm

Thorium. So awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9M__yYbsZ4&feature=list_other&playnext=1&list=SP2389413EDF55AF97

#192 Reid on 11.11.12 at 7:51 pm

dosouth and AACI Okanagan

I agree the market for higher end homes in Kelowna area is sick. Although DA is correct in that there are some sellers who are not motivated that exists in all markets where I have lived in and the MOI numbers here are so bad in the $600k+ market that it will not save the higher end market. High valued homes will be under pressure. Based on the data I have gathered, we plan to continue renting for the next 6-18 months to see what transpires.

#193 gladiator on 11.11.12 at 7:55 pm

Garth, have mercy please, it’s almost 7PM (EST) and I need my fix! Can you please post your next article?
Could barely type this – my hands are shakinggggggg

#194 broadway skytrain on 11.11.12 at 8:19 pm

who says owners have ‘freedom’ on their own property?

i need some advice on how to thwart ‘the machine’ and it’s nanny state ways – smoking man , help!

got some empty land , in the steep BC bush, on an island with no road access, no power, just deer and raccoons. built a couple decks a while back. neighbors are cool. inspector goes by in a boat and can see said decks from the water , sends a letter saying get a bldg permit.
i , of course want to say go $#@% you #$$%##$ piece of @##%$%@#!, and get the hell off my land, but maybe it’s not the best idea.

I will supply the sq footage of deck area built for them to extract more prop tax if they so desire. 90%+ of current nearby structures are built non permit.

i feel like a lowly renter;(

#195 Daisy Mae on 11.11.12 at 9:01 pm

#60 Aussie Roy: “The 25-year-old is so desperate to sell he has tacked signs to telegraph poles and worn a sandwich board around St Ives offering the five-bedroom home on a rent-to-buy scheme.”

******************

No one WANTS a 5-bdrm, anymore. It’s just too late. We’ve re-assessed our desires/demands. Realizing finally that we don’t NEED five bedrooms — really. Or granite countertops and stainless steel appliances. Attitudes have changed. So have finances.

#196 Snowboid on 11.11.12 at 10:53 pm

#194 Reid on 11.11.12 at 7:51 pm…

“…we plan to continue renting for the next 6-18 months to see what transpires…”

Our plan is the same, except we aren’t looking at high-end homes, but ones under $ 500K.

#197 Just Looking on 11.12.12 at 1:18 pm

@ Linda Pearson #161

Tax evaders vs. Tax avoiders:

Tax evasion is not a good thing and we need to have good enforcement and real penalties (someone who evades millions of $ of taxes should be pushed into personal bankruptcy as a result, leaders of corporations who do the same should also be made to be bankrupt regardless of the liability shields their lawyers have built – their skills/talents will ensure they won’t starve, but they’ll have to earn back their private jets).

But I actually think that overly creative tax avoidance is just as pernicious and just as destructive to civil society.

Fair enough if you want to use tax deferral schemes like RRSP’s to defer your tax hit on that money: that’s how they are designed. By all means, take your sabbatical, use the rule that allows you to take out money to extend your mat leave, put a DP on your house etc. These are things that aren’t outside of reason for the RRSP instrument and most of them were intended uses.

The problem is that laws are always blunt instruments. It is almost impossible to design them to take into account every fancy tax scheme that can be thought up. If there is, as Garth suggests, a scheme by which you can avoid paying any tax on the pre-tax money you’ve put in your RRSP, then that’s clearly beyond the intent of the program. It might be “legal” and therefore “tax avoidance”, but, without knowing the details, I can only assume it is only so because of a technicality that exploits unintended loopholes in the system.

The most acute example of this I’ve heard (and it was 2nd hand, so I may have the details fuzzy) is that in the early days of the TFSA, some accountants realized that they could sell their clients’ sole proprietorship buinesses to the TFSA’s for $5000. Million dollar businesses got transferred in to tax shelters for a price that didn’t reflect the true value. Suddenly, that investment gain ($5k –> $1m) and all the future dividends/profits become tax sheltered: an outcome that was never intended in the legislation. All those that took the loophole became parasites: they have successful businesses that rely on the infrastructure of a civil society but made a choice to avoid paying for that infrastructure.

In that context, I would argue that the tax avoider who uses complex schemes that obviously go against the intent of the tax law are far worse than tax evaders. At least the evaders accept the risk of being caught and having to pay whatever back taxes they need to.

Society fails when too many people with resources decide that their personal enrichment is more important than supporting the stable system of governance they enjoy. In Greece this week, drug use and prostitution have been reported to be on the rise. Violent crime, ditto. The weak and infirm find less support. The extreme right Golden Dawn party is on the rise and the society is slowly tearing itself apart. It serves as a good lesson of what happens when various elements of a civil society fail. One aspect is bad decisions by government, but anyone who thinks that individual decisions to avoid paying taxes in a serious way (by means legal or otherwise), is fooling themselves if they think that their choice to avoid contributing is not a major factor in the failed system.

#198 Penny Henny on 11.12.12 at 3:22 pm

I hope the hammer comes down hard on this construction corruption going on in Montreal. The fraud is everywhere and you have to…

RIP IT UP
AND START AGAIN
TO EIT #39
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESy-Z8vqMrE

ah memories