Oh, I don’t know about that…

And I agree with you that we all have to learn to stand on our own two feet. But… how many times did will we fall flat on our faces before we learned how to walk on our own? And who was there to smooth out the bumps for us along the way?

When it comes to human growth, there must be a plan for human failures as failure is often a necessary component of success. Government has a big role to play here because some of us, no matter how good the system is designed to accomodate success, some of us will fail. Some of us never will succeed or rise from failure so there has to be a big brother out there looking over our shoulders to soften the landings as much as possible. Its the same old same O, the allocation of resources and its a given that we must invest in success, but we do have to invest in the results of failure as well. Its called damage control. Its not a question really about whether or not those who are independent should look after those who aren’t… its a question of who ultimately pays for it and by how much and if those who are independent tire of paying the way for those who aren’t, then show dependents the way to independence if at all possible.

Just as government must trust most of citizens to fend for themselves, government must also trust that some of its citizens can’t. Not everyone is independent or fully capable. Not everyone who has the potential to fend for themselves will live up to that potential. Its called free will and as such, there must always be a plan for failure. Its why we have what we have, from public systems of education, welfare, old age pensions and EI, to judicial and Penal systems because to many of us have tried to educate ourselves or our loved ones on our own, tried to keep ourselves and each other healthy, tried to stay working and couldn’t, tried to save but didn’t or ran out of time, or simply didn’t try at all and became a public danger.

Let the weak perish and the strong survive… we can’t be rigid with this belief because history teaches us that where there is weakness, often we will find strength. Where there is strength, often we will find weakness and these weaknesses and strengths are often intangible. Some things are black and white, while others will always be a shade of grey and I really like that quote of yours, “give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime” because it applies precisely to what I’m talking about (or inspired it)

Yes, I like that one very much!

Have a great day, DA and you too, EMMA! I’ve run out of energy and time or otherwise I’d honor your response with more of the same. Cheers!

“bla bla bla bla bla the tend is still intact! Intact I say! Since it hasn’t happened yet it never will!”

Except the trend is not intact, even the recent rally hasn’t put house prices “back in trend”, and a speculative vehicle that trades below trend eventually starts a new one, which is down.

Even trees don’t grow to the sky.

Sorry I was not quicker to respond to your inquiry. Fact is I suspect it could evolve into an inappropriate lengthy discussion for these forums.

Let’s just say that I subscribe to the “Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime” theories. Eventually we must all be thrown from the nest… learn to fly or die. Just as this is how we have taught our own children so to do I believe government should trust that it’s citizens are capable of fending for themselves.

Life would be boring if we were right all the time. I’m sure that no one school of economics could solve all problems – they are more like a toolbox and the more tools you know how to use, the better the results. I appreciate your comments and point of view greatly – this blog has taught me more in a few months than many years at school. I am also in the very early stages of learning how to communicate contentious ideas without face to face interaction so I hope you weren’t offended.

We definitely agree that a bailout is a last resort – but we disagree on the timing. I would rather help something that has sunk than keep it floating in a life jacket. It’s like a parent that pays off drug debts without insisting on rehab.

With regards to the mortgage crisis in the states – if I were in charge I would have first of all waited for prices to bottom out so people could decide if they want to try to keep their homes at the true price they are worth. For those that wanted to stay, I would have split every troubled mortgage in half and given people 15 year terms – at the end of that, I would have given them the other half over another 15 years. This would have only cost me, the government, interest on half the amount for 15 years. Expensive, yes but nowhere close to what they have tossed at the problem so far (and it ain’t over yet because prices still haven’t bottomed due to the meddling).

So obviously, the Austrian School appeals to me because this intervention stuff, in my opinion is just dragging out the pain. But it is also obvious that I’m not a true Austrian because I wouldn’t just sit back totally – somewhere in the middle would be nice. First rule of first aid is to assess the scene for safety…

When Canada’s RE crashes you can bet our pansy government will prop it up somehow but why should it when my ‘smart’ friends have been sitting on the sidelines for up to 6 years waiting for some semblance of reason to kick in. If we are just going to bail everyone out, why shouldn’t they jump in as well? Why should they pay a price just because 80% of new homebuyers can’t use a fricken calculator, I believe it is called moral hazard!

Did you check out his investment seminar site? – a real classy piece of professional work. He will show you how to make a $ 1 million for $30.

Tom Vu is back. LOL

Peter I would have thought you were twin brother. We seem to think exactly alike! LOL

Where to begin.

“I’m not even going to touch your assumption that America ensures ‘basic human rights to education, healthcare, food and shelter’ because this post is long enough.” – Emma

I don’t ever recall saying America does this. Its certainly the goal of any government that actually is there to serve its people. 50 million are without healthcare. A further 50 million aren’t fully covered with insurance. I wouldn’t call this statement correct even if I said it, the evidence speaks for itself. As for the rest, keep reading.

#146 Taxpayer like you on 11.08.09 at 5:51 pm

I might as well address Emma, Devils Advocate one more time and yourself with what I’m about to say next.

We should all know by now with the human experience being what it is, well… we are all flawed. Well, so am I.

My greatest flaws in forums like this are to simply not take the time to research and know the field of interest or subject in question as well as I should before I make ascertions, propose facts and naturally come to conclusions. Its not that I’m not capable… I just don’t take the time. Part of it is due to the fact that I don’t have the time (y’all know that rushed feeling?) but in the final analysis, its an excuse. Take the time or lessen participation until one takes more time to actually know all the bases (if at all possible. Are you reading this, bubble boy?)

As well, I get emotional sometimes to the point of being insensitive and while some might cheer it on in agreement, emotions do skewer logic. (working on both issues and I do take only small comfort precisely because I know I have loads of company)

If I was ever to work as a journalist or a researcher these days, the very first thing I would my editor is, “give me time. When I come back to you with something that I feel is ready to go, send me back to the computer or library and keep digging until I’ve covered all the bases. When I come back a second time, do it again. If its something as large or complex as the U.S. economy, give me several months. When I believe I’ve got it all figured out, give me several months more and I won’t disappoint.”

Take today’s posts from myself as an example. I took a look at a link last night (in comment #98) and expanded on it without taking a much closer look at the history of Austrian economics. Had I done so, I would have seen some things differently. If I would have let it perculate for a couple days, the comment probably wouldn’t have seen the light of day. DA’s ascertion that I in some ways don’t know what I’m talking about is based in part in his suggestions in reading the works of Ludwig von Mises. Let it be said that I won’t agree with everythintg Ludwig has to say. Why? Because he’s just like I am. Human! As powerful an analyzer as he is, he will make ascertions that aren’t true. Why? Because he’s dealing with systems that are designed by human beings.

I will say this however, there is some Austrian economics in me after all. Ludwig von Mises theory Austrian business cycle theory as far as I’ve understood it, seems flawless. (Taxpayer like you, the charter of rights is an excellent example of a government protecting its citizens socially. Financially, an excellent place to start is with this link below and I’ll surely expand on it in the future). Keep in mind that Ludwig’s theory was published in 1912 nearly a century ago, so its nothing new which begs one to ask why its logic hasn’t been applied, especially in Canada today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_Business_Cycle_Theory

And lets also take a crash course into Ludwig’s life for a moment, its needed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises

Lets frame it accurately. Ludwig has me sold on his theory in a big way but just because he’s right about things doesn’t mean he’s right about all things. I should know. I’ve taken great lengths to tell you all that humans are flawed and Ludwig is one too! And I’ll tell you all right now that what I’ve learned in my lifes experience is that no one can succeed all buy themselves. We are far more dependent on others than we would all like to admit.

Ludwig was a big proponent of Capitalism being the most successful economic system in the world to come and it is… from an economic point of view. He’s an economist, not an environmentalist. Will it be the most successful system in the future with floating currencies and the largest national economy in the world completely ignoring his Austrian business cycle theory? Things change. We have the internet now. The gold standard is gone. The worlds population has almost doubled since his death. Environmental issues and commodity shortages are becoming the forefront dangers to future economies that don’t adjust. In other words… some on his own beliefs can no longer be applied or held as entirely valid in today’s world because of change.

Who is to say that those who believe Capitalism is the best economic system of today will be the mother of all solutions tomarrow? Will it solve the worlds issues in the environment or just make them worse? Will it bring peace to the world, or bring more war? Will it bring us closer to enshrining basic human rights or lead us farther away?

Capitalism is relatively young in the way its now practiced with fiat currencies. How can anyone pronounce it as the system of the future when centuries are a blink in the eye to the large scheme of things? Should God exist, what kind of economical system would he favour? Would he favour and economical system at all? Would he favor democracy as the best system of governance? Propaganada sure can make a mess of it.

Near as I can tell humans are the only species of life on earth, perhaps life in this universe that has put themselves in the position of needing money to survive. I throw it out there because all teachings need to be questioned and if dysfunctional, outright challenged. A teaching that flies today might not fly tomarrow. Its like the question of bailouts. It should be the last resort. What happens if we don’t?

Its like me pulling a crazy Ivan, looking back and re-questioning the bailout of Dodge and Chev by our Canadian government. Why should we bail out a foreign corporation? Seem logical to me that we shouldn’t. Is it logical to the Canadian auto workers who will lose their pensions should these corporations fail? Oh, the humility, er, humanity. And where is Chev, now majority owned by governments anyways headed? Fuel efficiency for real this time? Electric cars finally?

And one final thought on bailouts, Emma. Its the last resort. If all else fails, bail. None of us like it, but… what would happen if the government did nothing? What would Ludwig have to say about the bailouts of the last year and a half? Are you so sure he would be saying no to all of them? Some of it will turn out to be a waste, sure… and some of it won’t. Ludwig Von Miser is one of the founding fathers of Austrian economics and possessed a brilliant analytical mind, I have no doubt. His contempt for the minds of politicians in general never mind working particularly systems that weren’t capitalist were also evidenced. What would he think of the capitalist model of communist China today? Their currency doesn’t float. What would he think of Obama? Ludwig isn’t the only possessor of a brilliant analytical mind. A few do get elected.

As love is the key to forgiveness and peace, humility is the key to wisdom. None of us come to learn these things without the help of each other.