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	<title>Comments on: Mortgage meltdown, part deux</title>
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	<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/12/15/mortgage-meltdown-part-deux/</link>
	<description>Book and Weblog - Authored by Garth Turner</description>
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		<title>By: Patrice</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/12/15/mortgage-meltdown-part-deux/comment-page-1/#comment-11935</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:02:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greaterfool.ca/?p=1062#comment-11935</guid>
		<description>#36 Timbo
&gt; What do you offer as a solution?

indeed you have scary ideas.

you complain about the us bail out but you want our government to bail out our banks?

You are suggesting our government should control more things like the banks and get bigger and bigger?

ludicrous!

not good.

Free market is the only solution.

Anything less (like the bail out and other socialist policies) will make things worse.

Don&#039;t try to fix your falling castle of card; the castle sucks. it is meant to fall.
And it will fall eventually no matter what you do.
Instead of wasting your money trying to fix a lost cause, let it fall to the ground and keep your money to build a better castle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#36 Timbo<br />
&gt; What do you offer as a solution?</p>
<p>indeed you have scary ideas.</p>
<p>you complain about the us bail out but you want our government to bail out our banks?</p>
<p>You are suggesting our government should control more things like the banks and get bigger and bigger?</p>
<p>ludicrous!</p>
<p>not good.</p>
<p>Free market is the only solution.</p>
<p>Anything less (like the bail out and other socialist policies) will make things worse.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t try to fix your falling castle of card; the castle sucks. it is meant to fall.<br />
And it will fall eventually no matter what you do.<br />
Instead of wasting your money trying to fix a lost cause, let it fall to the ground and keep your money to build a better castle.</p>
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		<title>By: Trekie2</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/12/15/mortgage-meltdown-part-deux/comment-page-1/#comment-11934</link>
		<dc:creator>Trekie2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:30:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greaterfool.ca/?p=1062#comment-11934</guid>
		<description>I found the video interesting, but watching market trends and comparing them to history I see the Canadian housing market to have a major price decline starting in the spring of 2009 and lasting till 2010 then a slow trickle to the bottom....just like all the past pricing drop charts I have seen show....there is a major and quick fall in prices and then a slow fall of several percentage points for a few more years...maybe from 2010 to 2012-15? I have always watched our economy for &quot;triggers&quot; to start this downward spiral...and I think this time it&#039;s been the world economy at large that has &quot;triggered&quot; the average Canadian into waking up....unfortunately I still think a large number of us are asleep at the wheel....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found the video interesting, but watching market trends and comparing them to history I see the Canadian housing market to have a major price decline starting in the spring of 2009 and lasting till 2010 then a slow trickle to the bottom&#8230;.just like all the past pricing drop charts I have seen show&#8230;.there is a major and quick fall in prices and then a slow fall of several percentage points for a few more years&#8230;maybe from 2010 to 2012-15? I have always watched our economy for &#8220;triggers&#8221; to start this downward spiral&#8230;and I think this time it&#8217;s been the world economy at large that has &#8220;triggered&#8221; the average Canadian into waking up&#8230;.unfortunately I still think a large number of us are asleep at the wheel&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: timbo</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/12/15/mortgage-meltdown-part-deux/comment-page-1/#comment-11925</link>
		<dc:creator>timbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:07:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greaterfool.ca/?p=1062#comment-11925</guid>
		<description>#33 interesting reply , thank you.

you might not want it but I believe it has to happen due to the huge bubble economy collapsing upon itself. Banks are not solvent now and if my tax dollars are going to buy assets(laugh) from a bank to hold their books together I would like to know what I am buying.

What do you offer as a solution?

throw money every month at an ever contracting market? Watch as more and more companies merge to buy into the free money program or even worse purposely run themselves into the ground to get tax dollars? The US has started a very dangerous precedent by bailing out selected companies and letting others fail to be merged into larger monopoly&#039;s. Banking, Insurance, Auto&#039;s? They did this peace meal by reacting after the fact. Everyone now faces the fact that they have to either merge to become to big to fail or become a bank to get funds. Steel, agriculture, coal, forestry, are now going to follow.  Monopoly anyone ?

What I am stating is that we nationalize the banks,open the books,regulate, strip the gambling factor off the books and stabilize the system now. A bank should not be using dollars in hedge funds but in loans to a community. Leave that up to a separate corporation with higher risk and higher reward. Keep key savings and key loan operations solvent and heavily regulated.

for an example does the TD depositor become affected if the a TD hedge fund becomes insolvent? Government has caved in to speculators to increase risk and reward in the boom and is going to hurt the little guy in the bust.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#33 interesting reply , thank you.</p>
<p>you might not want it but I believe it has to happen due to the huge bubble economy collapsing upon itself. Banks are not solvent now and if my tax dollars are going to buy assets(laugh) from a bank to hold their books together I would like to know what I am buying.</p>
<p>What do you offer as a solution?</p>
<p>throw money every month at an ever contracting market? Watch as more and more companies merge to buy into the free money program or even worse purposely run themselves into the ground to get tax dollars? The US has started a very dangerous precedent by bailing out selected companies and letting others fail to be merged into larger monopoly&#8217;s. Banking, Insurance, Auto&#8217;s? They did this peace meal by reacting after the fact. Everyone now faces the fact that they have to either merge to become to big to fail or become a bank to get funds. Steel, agriculture, coal, forestry, are now going to follow.  Monopoly anyone ?</p>
<p>What I am stating is that we nationalize the banks,open the books,regulate, strip the gambling factor off the books and stabilize the system now. A bank should not be using dollars in hedge funds but in loans to a community. Leave that up to a separate corporation with higher risk and higher reward. Keep key savings and key loan operations solvent and heavily regulated.</p>
<p>for an example does the TD depositor become affected if the a TD hedge fund becomes insolvent? Government has caved in to speculators to increase risk and reward in the boom and is going to hurt the little guy in the bust.</p>
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		<title>By: Blacksheep</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/12/15/mortgage-meltdown-part-deux/comment-page-1/#comment-11917</link>
		<dc:creator>Blacksheep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 06:52:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greaterfool.ca/?p=1062#comment-11917</guid>
		<description>This is getting UGGGLY!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is getting UGGGLY!</p>
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		<title>By: pbell</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/12/15/mortgage-meltdown-part-deux/comment-page-1/#comment-11908</link>
		<dc:creator>pbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 03:29:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greaterfool.ca/?p=1062#comment-11908</guid>
		<description>What makes me puke about this current pseudo-Liberal government in BC is that they constantly had the audacity to blame any financial mess for the first half of this decade on the previous 90s NDP government.   The problem is when all is said and done post-Olympics, the past NDP will look like amateur debt defaulters compared to what this Campbell crew will leave this province.   The looming great depression will only exacerbate the situation.   I am not a fan of the Olympics because all it is is a corporation which exploit amateur athletes.  It has become a rich mans &quot;Hob knobbing event.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What makes me puke about this current pseudo-Liberal government in BC is that they constantly had the audacity to blame any financial mess for the first half of this decade on the previous 90s NDP government.   The problem is when all is said and done post-Olympics, the past NDP will look like amateur debt defaulters compared to what this Campbell crew will leave this province.   The looming great depression will only exacerbate the situation.   I am not a fan of the Olympics because all it is is a corporation which exploit amateur athletes.  It has become a rich mans &#8220;Hob knobbing event.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: islander</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/12/15/mortgage-meltdown-part-deux/comment-page-1/#comment-11907</link>
		<dc:creator>islander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 03:28:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greaterfool.ca/?p=1062#comment-11907</guid>
		<description>Timbo, you scare me. 

&quot;Nationalize the banks to make everything transparent and people can see the books and enact a massive usury law to get rid of predatory lending practices period...do we have the political will or am I wrong?&quot;

For fascism? Politicians want it. You might even say we&#039;re getting it. But I don&#039;t want it. And nobody with any sense of how successful economies work wants it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timbo, you scare me. </p>
<p>&#8220;Nationalize the banks to make everything transparent and people can see the books and enact a massive usury law to get rid of predatory lending practices period&#8230;do we have the political will or am I wrong?&#8221;</p>
<p>For fascism? Politicians want it. You might even say we&#8217;re getting it. But I don&#8217;t want it. And nobody with any sense of how successful economies work wants it.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/12/15/mortgage-meltdown-part-deux/comment-page-1/#comment-11889</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 00:37:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greaterfool.ca/?p=1062#comment-11889</guid>
		<description>to #28

But he didn&#039;t say what he&#039;s bullish on.  Energy, precious metals, commodities, financials, etc, etc .... so for him to make a general statement &quot;we are bullish on the market&quot; can mean anything.

What may be good in certain sectors (gold/silver + commods) for investing may not be good for the pocketbooks of the masses anyway</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>to #28</p>
<p>But he didn&#8217;t say what he&#8217;s bullish on.  Energy, precious metals, commodities, financials, etc, etc &#8230;. so for him to make a general statement &#8220;we are bullish on the market&#8221; can mean anything.</p>
<p>What may be good in certain sectors (gold/silver + commods) for investing may not be good for the pocketbooks of the masses anyway</p>
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		<title>By: JO</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/12/15/mortgage-meltdown-part-deux/comment-page-1/#comment-11886</link>
		<dc:creator>JO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 00:22:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greaterfool.ca/?p=1062#comment-11886</guid>
		<description>This video is old but valid. Most of these mortgages from these 2 classes will end of in default, but this goes to show this crisis was the result of many factors, including the greed of many borrowers and those who lived recklessly. The Fed (fractional reserve banking issue and debasement of the currency via printing), regulators and governments, banks (espcially IB&#039;s), appraisers, and borrowers engaged in a spectacular public spectacle. The true victims are those who saved and lived a frugal life, those with savings in banks upon which this poor credit was created on, and all taxpayers who will bear the brunt of most losses. The great Ponzi scheme economy we have seen in the last 7-8 years is crashing down. Add to the mortgage issue all the credit card and commercial debt going bad, and anyone who questions deflation for now should have their heads examined. That said, all these stimulus and bailouts going on are complete nonsense. They will delay the inevitable as debt will have to be paid or defaulted on, and losses will have to be taken. These short term measures will only add to our misery and happen only due to no politician wanting the pain to occur under their watch. Because of these measures, we might be lucky enough to see short term, meagre recoveries in the economy (with temporary inflation and rising interest rates) but we will have a poor economy with deflation for a much longer than necessary time as the economy lapses back into recession after each stimulus (Japan anyone?). The bottom in housing will be close when the average economist, investor, taxi driver and citizens as a whole tell you that housing is the last place you should be investing because it is bad. We are still 3-5 years away at least from this era.

In the meantime, look for the large number of people who were involved in this ponzi scheme to ask for bailouts and play the blame game, and to seek out left wing politicans who will pander to their misery. They will look to anyone who escaped this nonsense and all &quot;rich&quot; people as targets. There will be political polarization as the baby boomers attempt to bail themselves out of the reckless era on the backs of the younger generation. You already see this in some pension changes slated to occur. Teachers already passed changes benefiting the older workers at the expense of the young ones, and more recently, a proposal was made by the Actuaries&quot; Standards Board to change a formula used to calculate the commuted value of defined benefit plans where younger workers want to leave the plan and take a cheque for the refund of overcontributions and the rest as a locked in RSP. This rule change will effectively punish all laid off/resigned younger workers in DBP plans.

These are examples of the explosive confrontations that will occur over the next 5-10 years as a result of this mortgage crisis. 

JO</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This video is old but valid. Most of these mortgages from these 2 classes will end of in default, but this goes to show this crisis was the result of many factors, including the greed of many borrowers and those who lived recklessly. The Fed (fractional reserve banking issue and debasement of the currency via printing), regulators and governments, banks (espcially IB&#8217;s), appraisers, and borrowers engaged in a spectacular public spectacle. The true victims are those who saved and lived a frugal life, those with savings in banks upon which this poor credit was created on, and all taxpayers who will bear the brunt of most losses. The great Ponzi scheme economy we have seen in the last 7-8 years is crashing down. Add to the mortgage issue all the credit card and commercial debt going bad, and anyone who questions deflation for now should have their heads examined. That said, all these stimulus and bailouts going on are complete nonsense. They will delay the inevitable as debt will have to be paid or defaulted on, and losses will have to be taken. These short term measures will only add to our misery and happen only due to no politician wanting the pain to occur under their watch. Because of these measures, we might be lucky enough to see short term, meagre recoveries in the economy (with temporary inflation and rising interest rates) but we will have a poor economy with deflation for a much longer than necessary time as the economy lapses back into recession after each stimulus (Japan anyone?). The bottom in housing will be close when the average economist, investor, taxi driver and citizens as a whole tell you that housing is the last place you should be investing because it is bad. We are still 3-5 years away at least from this era.</p>
<p>In the meantime, look for the large number of people who were involved in this ponzi scheme to ask for bailouts and play the blame game, and to seek out left wing politicans who will pander to their misery. They will look to anyone who escaped this nonsense and all &#8220;rich&#8221; people as targets. There will be political polarization as the baby boomers attempt to bail themselves out of the reckless era on the backs of the younger generation. You already see this in some pension changes slated to occur. Teachers already passed changes benefiting the older workers at the expense of the young ones, and more recently, a proposal was made by the Actuaries&#8221; Standards Board to change a formula used to calculate the commuted value of defined benefit plans where younger workers want to leave the plan and take a cheque for the refund of overcontributions and the rest as a locked in RSP. This rule change will effectively punish all laid off/resigned younger workers in DBP plans.</p>
<p>These are examples of the explosive confrontations that will occur over the next 5-10 years as a result of this mortgage crisis. </p>
<p>JO</p>
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		<title>By: The Tallyman</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/12/15/mortgage-meltdown-part-deux/comment-page-1/#comment-11883</link>
		<dc:creator>The Tallyman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 00:19:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greaterfool.ca/?p=1062#comment-11883</guid>
		<description>And to go one step further
Make all Govt transparent, Especially CMHC 
Let the public see those damn books!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And to go one step further<br />
Make all Govt transparent, Especially CMHC<br />
Let the public see those damn books!!!</p>
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		<title>By: The Tallyman</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/12/15/mortgage-meltdown-part-deux/comment-page-1/#comment-11880</link>
		<dc:creator>The Tallyman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 00:13:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greaterfool.ca/?p=1062#comment-11880</guid>
		<description>Have to agree with #22 Timbo
&quot;Nationalize the banks to make everything transparent&quot;

Unfortunately the corrupt thieving gov prefers the greedy helping out the greedy approach. 
No accountability and a little skimming off the top each time bailout funds exchange hands.
That&#039;s capitalism and shoe dodging at it&#039;s finest.

They just smugly smile, deny and if they happen to get 
caught there&#039;s always the inquiry loophole that always ends the same... &quot;Errors were made and we have to make sure something like this never happens again.&quot;

Only thing is no laws or changes ever happen.
A few weeks pass and the whole issue drops from the publics radar.

The model we have is broke and we need a complete overhaul.

Ever thought about starting your own party Garth?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have to agree with #22 Timbo<br />
&#8220;Nationalize the banks to make everything transparent&#8221;</p>
<p>Unfortunately the corrupt thieving gov prefers the greedy helping out the greedy approach.<br />
No accountability and a little skimming off the top each time bailout funds exchange hands.<br />
That&#8217;s capitalism and shoe dodging at it&#8217;s finest.</p>
<p>They just smugly smile, deny and if they happen to get<br />
caught there&#8217;s always the inquiry loophole that always ends the same&#8230; &#8220;Errors were made and we have to make sure something like this never happens again.&#8221;</p>
<p>Only thing is no laws or changes ever happen.<br />
A few weeks pass and the whole issue drops from the publics radar.</p>
<p>The model we have is broke and we need a complete overhaul.</p>
<p>Ever thought about starting your own party Garth?</p>
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