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	<title>Comments on: Too late</title>
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	<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/07/22/too-late/</link>
	<description>Book and Weblog - Authored by Garth Turner</description>
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		<title>By: Popping-Bubbles</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/07/22/too-late/comment-page-2/#comment-3321</link>
		<dc:creator>Popping-Bubbles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 02:34:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greaterfool.ca/?p=325#comment-3321</guid>
		<description>smwhite, I agree that it will take time before the full brunt of the repricing of Canadian mortgages will be felt.  But that isn&#039;t to say that there aren&#039;t other catalysts which will push prices down sooner:

•  New buyers and investors are immediately impacted by higher mortgage rates
•  Housing prices are already at record highs relative to rents, incomes, and prior housing cycles
•  There is already record housing inventory available for sale and housing construction far in excess of household formation, both in an environment of declining sales
•  There is a decreasing pool of purchasers due to the fact that the CMHC has substantially tightened their criteria by now requiring 5% down, amortizations of less than 35-years, 45% maximum TDSR, 620 minimum credit score, and increased loan documentation standards.  Plus there are the new money laundering regulations which were mysteriously thrust upon real estate agents a few months ago.
•  We’re experiencing record high energy prices, surging inflation, increasing unemployment, a global banking crisis and declining stock markets

Indeed, housing prices are already dropping in Canada and, not surprisingly given that there is a &lt;b&gt;global&lt;/b&gt; housing bubble, in markets around the world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>smwhite, I agree that it will take time before the full brunt of the repricing of Canadian mortgages will be felt.  But that isn&#8217;t to say that there aren&#8217;t other catalysts which will push prices down sooner:</p>
<p>•  New buyers and investors are immediately impacted by higher mortgage rates<br />
•  Housing prices are already at record highs relative to rents, incomes, and prior housing cycles<br />
•  There is already record housing inventory available for sale and housing construction far in excess of household formation, both in an environment of declining sales<br />
•  There is a decreasing pool of purchasers due to the fact that the CMHC has substantially tightened their criteria by now requiring 5% down, amortizations of less than 35-years, 45% maximum TDSR, 620 minimum credit score, and increased loan documentation standards.  Plus there are the new money laundering regulations which were mysteriously thrust upon real estate agents a few months ago.<br />
•  We’re experiencing record high energy prices, surging inflation, increasing unemployment, a global banking crisis and declining stock markets</p>
<p>Indeed, housing prices are already dropping in Canada and, not surprisingly given that there is a <b>global</b> housing bubble, in markets around the world.</p>
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		<title>By: smwhite</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/07/22/too-late/comment-page-2/#comment-3223</link>
		<dc:creator>smwhite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:12:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greaterfool.ca/?p=325#comment-3223</guid>
		<description>If they(Bernake, Paulson) print and pump in that extra trillion dollars, I can see another dramatic rise in inflation... Oil will go up worldwide (As its priced in USA dollars), gold will surpass $1000...

These actions of our southern cousins continues to put pressure on our dollar, trying to keep pace(or trying to keep our dollar as worthless as the greenback) so as we don&#039;t completely destroy the manufacturing sector in Canada.

If you look at countries/nations like England, Europe and Australia with strong interest policies, it seems to be paying off in their stock markets...

For those sitting and waiting for Canadian housing (minus the West) to decline substantially in a short amount of time, good luck, this pig is going to slowly bleed for a long time...

I agree with Mike that a &quot;trigger&quot; event is required to put any substantial pressure on housing prices, how about this for a trigger Mike, rates at 7% this fall and unemployment at 7%.

http://www.bcrealtor.com/d_bkcan.htm#bkcanhist

If you look at the chart 2004 - 2006 rates were at their lowest levels ever(minus 2002), these mortgages come up in 2009  to 2011 for renewal, the 40year mortgages will come up in 2011 - 2013. I think we are still looking to the horizon for any major dip(then again if a house price stays flat a la 0% then its lost its yearly 4% - 5% average gain, isn&#039;t that a loss of 4% - 5%, or do RE bulls consider that &quot;flat&quot;?

I&#039;m sure Mr. Carney will be keeping a hand close to the red button. But if there is to be an event, it will be closer to the 2010 - 2011 time frame; and that is way to far in the future to make an edjamacated guess on what the hell will be going on south of the border with their magic money machine. 

Canada looks to be starting to go through another stale 90&#039;s type RE period in the next couple of years, fine if you live in your house as shelter, not so much if your a flipper holding multiple properties and no cash in the bank... Good luck to all...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If they(Bernake, Paulson) print and pump in that extra trillion dollars, I can see another dramatic rise in inflation&#8230; Oil will go up worldwide (As its priced in USA dollars), gold will surpass $1000&#8230;</p>
<p>These actions of our southern cousins continues to put pressure on our dollar, trying to keep pace(or trying to keep our dollar as worthless as the greenback) so as we don&#8217;t completely destroy the manufacturing sector in Canada.</p>
<p>If you look at countries/nations like England, Europe and Australia with strong interest policies, it seems to be paying off in their stock markets&#8230;</p>
<p>For those sitting and waiting for Canadian housing (minus the West) to decline substantially in a short amount of time, good luck, this pig is going to slowly bleed for a long time&#8230;</p>
<p>I agree with Mike that a &#8220;trigger&#8221; event is required to put any substantial pressure on housing prices, how about this for a trigger Mike, rates at 7% this fall and unemployment at 7%.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bcrealtor.com/d_bkcan.htm#bkcanhist" rel="nofollow">http://www.bcrealtor.com/d_bkcan.htm#bkcanhist</a></p>
<p>If you look at the chart 2004 &#8211; 2006 rates were at their lowest levels ever(minus 2002), these mortgages come up in 2009  to 2011 for renewal, the 40year mortgages will come up in 2011 &#8211; 2013. I think we are still looking to the horizon for any major dip(then again if a house price stays flat a la 0% then its lost its yearly 4% &#8211; 5% average gain, isn&#8217;t that a loss of 4% &#8211; 5%, or do RE bulls consider that &#8220;flat&#8221;?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure Mr. Carney will be keeping a hand close to the red button. But if there is to be an event, it will be closer to the 2010 &#8211; 2011 time frame; and that is way to far in the future to make an edjamacated guess on what the hell will be going on south of the border with their magic money machine. </p>
<p>Canada looks to be starting to go through another stale 90&#8217;s type RE period in the next couple of years, fine if you live in your house as shelter, not so much if your a flipper holding multiple properties and no cash in the bank&#8230; Good luck to all&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: lgre</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/07/22/too-late/comment-page-2/#comment-3221</link>
		<dc:creator>lgre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:40:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greaterfool.ca/?p=325#comment-3221</guid>
		<description>Mike.slob, it&#039;s funny you mention Brampton, that is one place I have been following for a while. Several houses I have followed have declined in price by $20k-$25k asking price, while selling for the original price last year, so we are on a downward trend. These houses are in the 280-305 range so I&#039;m not talking about $1 million dollar houses. There was a time when new houses cost a lot less to buy then a resale because of the bs you had to deal with afterwards but it looks like that trend turned, so if someone buys a semi from the builder for 320 then he will have to sell for around $345-$350 just to come out even. A friend bought a 2400sq ft detach dbl car for $357 2 months ago 2 years old, all open concept, stainless, hardwood and the works all in Brampton, the market is very staggered when a semi costs as much as a detach. 

This is the beginning, where you expecting house prices to drop like the U.S at this stage? I suggest you watch the video from Jas#65. It will take some time, nothing happens overnight. It took 6 years for the prices to come to where they are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike.slob, it&#8217;s funny you mention Brampton, that is one place I have been following for a while. Several houses I have followed have declined in price by $20k-$25k asking price, while selling for the original price last year, so we are on a downward trend. These houses are in the 280-305 range so I&#8217;m not talking about $1 million dollar houses. There was a time when new houses cost a lot less to buy then a resale because of the bs you had to deal with afterwards but it looks like that trend turned, so if someone buys a semi from the builder for 320 then he will have to sell for around $345-$350 just to come out even. A friend bought a 2400sq ft detach dbl car for $357 2 months ago 2 years old, all open concept, stainless, hardwood and the works all in Brampton, the market is very staggered when a semi costs as much as a detach. </p>
<p>This is the beginning, where you expecting house prices to drop like the U.S at this stage? I suggest you watch the video from Jas#65. It will take some time, nothing happens overnight. It took 6 years for the prices to come to where they are.</p>
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		<title>By: lgre</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/07/22/too-late/comment-page-2/#comment-3220</link>
		<dc:creator>lgre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:11:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greaterfool.ca/?p=325#comment-3220</guid>
		<description>hey Gabby read Mike.slob&#039;s post, he seems to think that a townhouse will be $500g&#039;s in september, there&#039;s something different..lol</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hey Gabby read Mike.slob&#8217;s post, he seems to think that a townhouse will be $500g&#8217;s in september, there&#8217;s something different..lol</p>
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		<title>By: patriotz</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/07/22/too-late/comment-page-2/#comment-3219</link>
		<dc:creator>patriotz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greaterfool.ca/?p=325#comment-3219</guid>
		<description>&quot;Imagine Jack Leyton running a world economy,&quot;

Imagine George Bush and Alan Greenspan running a world economy. Except we don&#039;t have to imagine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Imagine Jack Leyton running a world economy,&#8221;</p>
<p>Imagine George Bush and Alan Greenspan running a world economy. Except we don&#8217;t have to imagine.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike.slob</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/07/22/too-late/comment-page-2/#comment-3218</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike.slob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greaterfool.ca/?p=325#comment-3218</guid>
		<description>About  housing crash in GTA, I still thinking that
we are too far.Look the new listings in Burlington and Brampton.For newer semi asking prices are between 340K to 360K(Insane).So when we can ecspect crash?
Never! Only if interest rates going above 8%, or unemployement in Ontario will going more than 8%.
Housing Prices  will going up from September to December 2008. Also we can expect further double digits decline of Resales.GTA is strong sellers market and even resales drop 20% prices will going up.
Seven months is decline of resales in GTA but I can&#039;t see any correction of prices.
About 2009 will see? 

My prediction for july/08:
Sales in GTA will be down between
17% to 21%.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About  housing crash in GTA, I still thinking that<br />
we are too far.Look the new listings in Burlington and Brampton.For newer semi asking prices are between 340K to 360K(Insane).So when we can ecspect crash?<br />
Never! Only if interest rates going above 8%, or unemployement in Ontario will going more than 8%.<br />
Housing Prices  will going up from September to December 2008. Also we can expect further double digits decline of Resales.GTA is strong sellers market and even resales drop 20% prices will going up.<br />
Seven months is decline of resales in GTA but I can&#8217;t see any correction of prices.<br />
About 2009 will see? </p>
<p>My prediction for july/08:<br />
Sales in GTA will be down between<br />
17% to 21%.</p>
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		<title>By: Gabby</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/07/22/too-late/comment-page-2/#comment-3216</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 05:06:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greaterfool.ca/?p=325#comment-3216</guid>
		<description>Poor Snoopcherry...but hey, it was nice to read something funny for a change.  How many different ways can bear bloggers say that the party is over? we get it. It is over. Now make this forum more interesting or I will have to find some else to read each night.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Poor Snoopcherry&#8230;but hey, it was nice to read something funny for a change.  How many different ways can bear bloggers say that the party is over? we get it. It is over. Now make this forum more interesting or I will have to find some else to read each night.</p>
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		<title>By: Lorne</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/07/22/too-late/comment-page-2/#comment-3215</link>
		<dc:creator>Lorne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greaterfool.ca/?p=325#comment-3215</guid>
		<description>Eventhough the bottom&#039;s a couple years away in most parts of the country, i am surprised how seemingly quickly it came to cowtown (roughly a year from when MOI&#039;s started surging)...

Sales continue to improve in Calgary 
July sales are continuing the upward trend that started in June. Single family home sales volume, after being down 34% for the first five months of 2008, showed an 18% drop in June. July sales are down 12% compared to 2007. 
The SFH median price for the first three weeks of July at $412,750 is up $4,750 from June, but down $27,000(6%) compared to July 2007.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eventhough the bottom&#8217;s a couple years away in most parts of the country, i am surprised how seemingly quickly it came to cowtown (roughly a year from when MOI&#8217;s started surging)&#8230;</p>
<p>Sales continue to improve in Calgary<br />
July sales are continuing the upward trend that started in June. Single family home sales volume, after being down 34% for the first five months of 2008, showed an 18% drop in June. July sales are down 12% compared to 2007.<br />
The SFH median price for the first three weeks of July at $412,750 is up $4,750 from June, but down $27,000(6%) compared to July 2007.</p>
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		<title>By: jrochest</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/07/22/too-late/comment-page-2/#comment-3214</link>
		<dc:creator>jrochest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 03:45:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greaterfool.ca/?p=325#comment-3214</guid>
		<description>No, guys, I&#039;m pretty sure that Michael is now definitively established as a clever piece of trolling/sock puppetry as performance art.

This is a piece of satire. Not necessarily *good* satire, but satire. 

The &#039;absentee speculator Michael&#039; is meant to be from Calgary, not TO. Although _are_ there many tapas bars in Calgary? They aren&#039;t that common in TO. And poodles aren&#039;t a hot dog: French Bulldogs, maybe. 

To parse the fiction: 

Red ball cap: clueless absentee speculator cannot recognize that he&#039;s wearing Blood colours in Crips territory.  

Lysol: clueless middle-class absentee speculator cannot recognize the signs of a meth lab. 

Wife propositioned: yes, Pleasant Hill is a stroll. 

Poodle: universal symbol of effete and probably French urbanism. 

Painted blue: see Crips, above. 

It&#039;s kind of cute, but don&#039;t fall for it. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, guys, I&#8217;m pretty sure that Michael is now definitively established as a clever piece of trolling/sock puppetry as performance art.</p>
<p>This is a piece of satire. Not necessarily *good* satire, but satire. </p>
<p>The &#8216;absentee speculator Michael&#8217; is meant to be from Calgary, not TO. Although _are_ there many tapas bars in Calgary? They aren&#8217;t that common in TO. And poodles aren&#8217;t a hot dog: French Bulldogs, maybe. </p>
<p>To parse the fiction: </p>
<p>Red ball cap: clueless absentee speculator cannot recognize that he&#8217;s wearing Blood colours in Crips territory.  </p>
<p>Lysol: clueless middle-class absentee speculator cannot recognize the signs of a meth lab. </p>
<p>Wife propositioned: yes, Pleasant Hill is a stroll. </p>
<p>Poodle: universal symbol of effete and probably French urbanism. </p>
<p>Painted blue: see Crips, above. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s kind of cute, but don&#8217;t fall for it. <img src='http://www.greaterfool.ca/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: $fromaSia</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterfool.ca/2008/07/22/too-late/comment-page-2/#comment-3213</link>
		<dc:creator>$fromaSia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 03:22:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.greaterfool.ca/?p=325#comment-3213</guid>
		<description>Jas, I think Gold is going to go up even more since the value of money here has diminished!!!

Denninger.net CRAZY!!! 

American people to pay debt? 

Looks like the only way is to open up immigration so that theres immigrants to come in and buy these homes. Although at a discount, it&#039;s still better than foreclosure and bankruptcy!!!

Whats your take Garth?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jas, I think Gold is going to go up even more since the value of money here has diminished!!!</p>
<p>Denninger.net CRAZY!!! </p>
<p>American people to pay debt? </p>
<p>Looks like the only way is to open up immigration so that theres immigrants to come in and buy these homes. Although at a discount, it&#8217;s still better than foreclosure and bankruptcy!!!</p>
<p>Whats your take Garth?</p>
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